[mikellanes]

Released today: "Preserving Democracy -- What Went Wrong in Ohio" A Status Report of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff"

Link to the PDF: http://homepage.mac.com/mikellanes/f...tus_report.pdf
3.1MB 102 Pages of Fraudulent Activity, Voter Problems and Voter Suppression among other things going on in Ohio.

Conyers is calling on several Senators to contest the electoral votes from Ohio tomorrow.
Will any rise this time? Last time Gore said not to contest, has Kerry said anything?

Where is Kerry? In Iraq? Why now, why tomorrow?

What's up with Michael Moore lately? First he shows up on TV saying the election was fair and we need to move on. Now his front page is saying: "Just One Senator..." Why Now, why the change of attitude?

Hillary signed on to file lawsuits about fraud in Ohio, now she said "she dosen't know anything about fraud" IS she hiding something? is she out of the loop...?

Conyers sounded full of hope on AAR today, He seems to think he has several who are willing to stand to contest.

I am not as hopeful, I think the problem is too many in politics have something to hide. Besides I don't think much would come of it anyway.

[mikellanes]

[SimeyTheLimey]

What went wrong in Ohio? Apparently, the Democrats lost an election. Oh, the horror of it.

[Shaddim]

What? The image shows a large number of people in line to vote? They could have been voting for anyone, maybe it was a large church group turning out for Bush, who knows?

MoveOn�, and work on a better candidate for 2008 (like Evan Bayh of IN). If the Dems actually nominated someone CAPABLE of winning, they might have a chance.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
They could have been voting for anyone, maybe it was a large church group turning out for Bush, who knows?

Why so partisan all the time? Who cares who they were voting for? This was late, almost 11pm This is ridiculous when other parts of ohio had NO LINES, this needs to be fixed.

I don't give a flip who the president is, who these people were voting for or what county this was, a 6 hour wait to vote is not reasonable, all the other points brought up in the report are nothing to be glossed over for anyone who want's to continue a democracy.

There were significant problems that need to be fixed, get over it.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Why so partisan all the time? Who cares who they were voting for? This was late, almost 11pm This is ridiculous when other parts of ohio had NO LINES, this needs to be fixed.

I don't give a flip who the president is, who these people were voting for or what county this was, a 6 hour wait to vote is not reasonable, all the other points brought up in the report are nothing to be glossed over for anyone who want's to continue a democracy.

There were significant problems that need to be fixed, get over it.

No, YOU get over it. I'm tired of the damned whiners.

You lost, period. Start on your campaign for 2008, or, I guarantee we'll be handing you your ass... again.

Where does it show the TIME on the photo? Or, are we supposed to take the news outlet's word for it? More importantly, however, people know it's difficult when you WAIT UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE TO VOTE. If a person's too stupid to know that they should vote early in the day (unless they're just absolutely not able), or better yet, to mail in their ballot, then not much can be done to help them. Hell, I went at 8am and was done in 5 minutes.

"I waited until 11:30pm to vote, and now I can't get in... I've been disenfranchised, boo-hoo!"

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, YOU get over it. I'm tired of the damned whiners.

Guess what, no one cares what you are tired of, get over it.

"I waited until 11:30pm to vote, and now I can't get in... I've been disenfranchised, boo-hoo!"

In case you can't do simple math, some showed up at 4:30 and waited till 11, some showed up at 6 and waited till 12pm or later.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Guess what, no one care what you are tired of, get over it.

In case you can't do simple math, some showed up at 4:30 and waited till 11, some showed up at 6 and waited till 12pm or later.

I did the math, I simply think it's bullsh*t. As in, "no, it's a lie and I don't believe it".

And, no one cares about you and your pathetic candidate's loss by over 120K votes in Ohio. Learn to deal, seek therapy, find a better hobby, etc.. Oh, I KNOW, wake up from your delusion that a turd like Kerry could ever be elected in the US.

[ThinkInsane]

christ, this is getting old. Give it a rest guys.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
[B]Learn to deal, seek therapy, find a better hobby, etc.. /B]

This from the man that thinks he talks to minions of God...

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
christ, this is getting old. Give it a rest guys.

If you are referring to OH, This just came out today, and is to be contested tomorrow, not old news.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
This from the man that thinks he talks to minions of God...

They're more real than Kerry as PotUS.


and quit trying to derail your own thread.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
christ, this is getting old. Give it a rest guys.

I will, when he decides to stop subjecting us to his crying every day.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
If you are referring to OH, This just came out today, and is to be contested tomorrow, not old news.

I was referring to the constant bickering. it gets... tiring. To say the least.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I will, when he decides to stop subjecting us to his crying every day.

Is he forcing you to read his threads, or reply to them? I don't think he's subjecting us to any actions.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I will, when he decides to stop subjecting us to his crying every day.

[mikellanes]

And Now Kerry is getting in on the action??

Dear *********,

No American citizen should wake up the morning after the election and worry their vote wasn't counted. No citizen should be denied at the polls if they are eligible to vote. And, as the greatest, wealthiest nation on earth, our citizens should never be forced to vote on old, unaccountable and non transparent voting machines from companies controlled by partisan activists.

Tomorrow, members of Congress will meet to certify the results of the 2004 presidential election. I will not be taking part in a formal protest of the Ohio Electors.

Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.

But, that does not mean we should abandon our commitment to addressing those problems that happened in Ohio. We must act today to make sure they never happen again.

I urge you to join me in using this occasion to highlight our demand that Congress commit itself this year to reforming the electoral system. A Presidential election is a national federal election but we have different standards in different states for casting and counting votes. We need a national federal standard to solve the problems that occurred in the 2004 election. I will propose legislation to help achieve this.

Florida 2000 was a wake up call. But the Republicans who control Congress ignored it. Will they now ignore what happened in 2004?

There are nearly 3,000,000 of you receiving this email. We accomplished so much together during the campaign. Now let's use our power to make sure that at least one good thing comes from the voting rights problems of the 2004 election. If we want to force real action on election reform, we've got to demand that congressional leaders hold full hearings. Make sure they hear from you and help hold them accountable.

Speaker Dennis Hastert: 1-202-225-0600
Leader Bill Frist: 1-202-224-3135

And please report that you've made your call right here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/signup/electoral_reform.php

I want every vote counted because Americans have to know that the votes they stood in line for, fought for, and strived so hard to cast in an election, are counted. We must make sure there are no questions or doubts in future elections. It's critical to our democracy that we investigate and act to prevent voting irregularities and voter intimidation across the country. We can't stand still as Congressional leaders seek to sweep well-founded voter concerns under the rug.

Please join with me in calling Speaker Hastert and Leader Frist and telling them that you want action on election reform now.

A recent report from Representative John Conyers (D-Michigan) reveals very troubling questions that have not yet been answered by Ohio election officials. I commend the Democratic National Committee for its announcement this week that the DNC will be investing resources and reaching out to non-partisan academics in a long term study of Ohio voting irregularities. I am only sorry that we haven't seen the same from Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell and GOP officials.

Congress must play a positive, proactive role on this issue. That's why I will soon introduce legislation to reform our election system, ensuring transparency and accountability in our voting system and that all Americans have an opportunity to vote and have their vote counted.

Please remember to let us know that you made your call when you're done. We're hoping to ensure House and Senate leaders' offices hear our demand for action on election reform in meaningful way. Please take a moment to let us know you have made your call here: http://www.johnkerry.com/signup/electoral_reform.php

Thank you,

John Kerry

P.S. Thanks to all those who participated in our USO "phone home" campaign last week. The totals are coming in from the USO, and they are thrilled with your generosity and support for our brave men and women in uniform. We will send you totals as we get them.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
And Now Kerry is getting in on the action??

Tomorrow, members of Congress will meet to certify the results of the 2004 presidential election. I will not be taking part in a formal protest of the Ohio Electors.

Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.

In a word, no.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Is he forcing you to read his threads, or reply to them? I don't think he's subjecting us to any actions.

It's not just HIS threads, he's making baseless comments regarding the election in several threads. It's ridiculous that a person would go on whining about a thing for so long. I don't see anyone else on MacNN doing that.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
It's not just HIS threads, he's making baseless comments regarding the election in several threads. It's ridiculous that a person would go on whining about a thing for so long. I don't see anyone else on MacNN doing that.

News to me? I have only posted about this election in either my own threads or threads related to the news. What baseless comments?

I am not whining, as you see from my very first comments, I see no real outcome to all this, I posted because it is interesting this is all coming out today of all days...

I think you just need someone to complain about and I must be it for today, typical.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
News to me? I have only posted about this election in either my own threads or threads related to the news. What baseless comments?

I am not whining, as you see from my very first comments, I see no real outcome to all this, I posted because it is interesting this is all coming out today of all days...

I think you just need someone to complain about and I must be it for today, typical.

Oh please. Every day you're making a comment like, "or maybe not, we'll see" or "it's not over yet", or "let's see what happens in a few days". Damn dude, get on with your life. It's over, he lost.

[ThinkInsane]

Again, quit the personal bickering and discuss the topic. If you don't care to discuss the topic, don't post in the thread. If you feel you just have to make a comment about the thread starter and their topic, PM them. If this still isn't clear, then you might need to take the short bus to a 'special' school and work on your reading comprehension. Enough, seriously.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Oh please. Every day you're making a comment like, "or maybe not, we'll see" or "it's not over yet", or "let's see what happens in a few days". Damn dude, get on with your life. It's over, he lost.

Ignore? I dunno, you need to find your own solution to the hostility.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Ignore? I dunno, you need to find your own solution to the hostility.

p.s. sorry Think Insane, I agree any further personal comments not on topic should be taken to PM.

[mikellanes]

On AAR right now (paraphrased):

Conyers: (on OH lines) "It took 9, 10, 11 hours, they deserve a medal for waiting that long"

Randi: "They had the number of registered voters, they knew it would take up to 16 hours to get them through"

Conyers: "The point, the purpose of this is to make sure the voting process is as good as it can be in every single state.

Conyers: "Some Senators are saying 'Its over Kerry conceded' this is not what its about, its good for republicans its good for democrats to have a certifiable election process"

Conyers: "Can there be anything more in conflict than the heads of the vote process were running Bush re-election campaigns a day before the election?"

Conyers: "We are looking to make this process better for the future"

Conyers: "The same provisional problems were happening in OH that happened in FL in 2000, this is still broken and needs to be fixed."

Randi: "I would argue, let congress choose the president, the issue still needs to be brought to attention"

Conyers: "We also plan to continue this no matter what happens tomorrow, its not about who won its about a better system and figuring out why these things happened"

Conyers: "I don't think the Senate will embarrass themselves like they did four years ago."

Conyers: "It used to be fashionable to say "black people don't have the right to vote" and this changed, not long ago, we can change this now"

Conyers: "We have 100's of 1000's of people rallying over what went wrong, that is the message that will get home to the congress, they know the situation now and should do something about it."

Conyers: "We have a report "what went wrong in ohio" it goes in to detail, its amazing, we examined the machine allocation, the cutting back of provisional ballots, intimidation of new voters, machine irregularities, spoiled ballots, the exit polls differential, the lack of enough machine in democratic areas vs. republican areas."

Randi: "do you think we will get a senator tomorrow?"

Conyers: "Yes we will."

Randi: "Yeah he's got somebody"

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
I am not as hopeful, I think the problem is too many in politics have something to hide. Besides I don't think much would come of it anyway.

I think the problem is facts and reality are starting to set in.

How many more times am I going to see articles and charts quoting early exit poll information?

How many more times am I going to see "impossible voting situations" (more votes then voters) that have already been explained away hundreds of times?

I feel the final Ohio Voting Conspiracy hopefuls are dying out in the face of reality (cold hard numbers, final exit polls, the exit poll company stating that their numbers were off). As time goes on... more factual information points towards a creditable election even in the face of a few minor irregularities.

The heart of the issue is... Democrats don't want to acknowledge that more (not less) of the voting population voted Bush/Republican in 2004 as compared to 2000... and Kerry was unable to convert any Red states to Blue states...

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I think the problem is facts and reality are starting to set in.

Possibly true...

As time goes on... more factual information points towards a creditable election even in the face of a few minor irregularities.

Did you read any of the 100 page report? a few minor irregularities?

and Kerry was unable to convert any Red states to Blue states...

New Hampshire doesn't count?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
On AAR right now (paraphrased):

Did AAR ask Conyers what he did with all the turkeys he took from a food bank and was supposed to give to the poor?

The director of a Detroit food bank wants to know what happened to 60 turkeys -- 720 pounds of frozen birds -- that his charity gave to members of U.S. Rep. John Conyers' local staff two days before Thanksgiving to give to needy people.

Fernandes said he became suspicious that the turkeys didn't get to poor people after hearing from a friend that a federal court worker had said he was offered free turkeys from a member of Conyers' staff.

By mid-afternoon Tuesday, Fernandes said he had received nothing from Conyers' office.

"I've got to tell you that our mission of feeding hungry people has been violated by the people who should have been guardians of our mission," Fernandes said.

Fernandes said Conyers staffer Elisa Grubbs signed a Gleaners invoice Nov. 23 acknowledging she picked up the turkeys on the congressman's behalf. Fernandes sent the Free Press a copy of the invoice.

Morgan said the staffers who picked up the turkeys had promised to provide Gleaners with an accounting by Dec. 27. Morgan said she would ask Conyers to call the Free Press to answer questions about the turkeys, but he did not.

"You can imagine how we feel," Fernandes said. "They didn't pay anything. This was donations to them to help the needy. We get calls from different representatives who want to put together food baskets for their needy constituents and you have faith that these people are going to bring the food to the people it's intended to go to."

A Conyers staff member who asked not to be named for fear of reprisal told the Free Press that Grubbs and her cousin, Conyers' Detroit deputy chief of staff Marion Brown, along with a former Conyers aide, DeWayne Boyd, picked up the turkeys and later gave contradictory accounts of what happened to the birds.

The unnamed staff member raised concerns in a memo sent to both the FBI and House ethics committee. Conyers was the target of an informal ethics committee inquiry last year following a Free Press investigation about use of staff members during work hours for political campaigns.

[strictlyplaid]

I really disagree with you guys saying that this whole deal is sour grapes by Kerry. The man has admitted he lost and isn't petitioning to have the results of the election changed. God knows that most Democrats, including me, have resigned ourselves to four more years of Dubya -- if anything, people on our side of the aisle are complaining that he (more or less) legitimately convinced 51% of people to vote for him. And, no one is saying that Dubya had his brother write in his own vote tallies in Florida, or have jack-booted thugs spray black people with fire hoses at the polls, or something outrageous.

It seems pretty clear to me that some people, coincidentally in Democrat-dominated districts, were discouraged from voting as a result of tremendously long lines. I personally spoke (on cell phone) to friends in Ohio on election day that were in line to vote, who'd already waited 2 hours or more (and this was in the early afternoon.) That's BS in an economically prosperous nation, and I'd say that even if it were Dubya voters that had to endure it.

So stop your gloating -- you won, no one's denying it. But the fact that you won doesn't mean that there weren't certain problems with the election that need to be fixed.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by strictlyplaid:
I really disagree with you guys saying that this whole deal is sour grapes by Kerry. The man has admitted he lost and isn't petitioning to have the results of the election changed. God knows that most Democrats, including me, have resigned ourselves to four more years of Dubya -- if anything, people on our side of the aisle are complaining that he (more or less) legitimately convinced 51% of people to vote for him. And, no one is saying that Dubya had his brother write in his own vote tallies in Florida, or have jack-booted thugs spray black people with fire hoses at the polls, or something outrageous.

It seems pretty clear to me that some people, coincidentally in Democrat-dominated districts, were discouraged from voting as a result of tremendously long lines. I personally spoke (on cell phone) to friends in Ohio on election day that were in line to vote, who'd already waited 2 hours or more (and this was in the early afternoon.) That's BS in an economically prosperous nation, and I'd say that even if it were Dubya voters that had to endure it.

So stop your gloating -- you won, no one's denying it. But the fact that you won doesn't mean that there weren't certain problems with the election that need to be fixed.

I don't think anyone is accusing Kerry of "sour grapes", it's his followers that are guilty of that. He's actually been fairly noble about the whole thing.

FWIW, we had 2 hour lines here in Knoxville in some districts, especially late in the afternoon and early evening, but 6 hours is just nonsense. People really need to learn about early voting, would save them a lot of trouble.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
People really need to learn about early voting, would save them a lot of trouble.

You blame the people? hahaha, I take back my thumbs-up

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I don't think anyone is accusing Kerry of "sour grapes", it's his followers that are guilty of that. He's actually been fairly noble about the whole thing.

Followers? lol ok.

I agree that Kerry has done nothing to warrant any sour grapes.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by mikellanes:

Did you read any of the 100 page report? a few minor irregularities?

New Hampshire doesn't count?

My apologies to everyone in New Hampshire... but considering the Iowa and Arazona swing from blue to red... NH had little impact.

Your PDF is a Moore style editorial that resembles a research paper.

From your PDF

First, there is the 2000 Election debacle in Florida. In that election, advocates for a full and fair count were asked to �move on� after Vice President Al Gore conceded the election to thenGovernor George W. Bush. Months later, it was found that a full and fair count would have resulted in Gore, not Bush, being elected the Forty-third President of the United States. 9 Subsequent investigations also uncovered rampant disenfranchisement in Florida, particularly of African-American voters. 10

Ha ha... I liked this better when Moore said it.

It was a lie then, it is a lie now.

The first recount went to Bush
The second recount went to Bush
The Supreme Court agreed Bush Won
and a 6 month study by in 2001 by New York Times, CNN and The Washington Post verified Bush won.

Let me guess... They are all part of the evil Republican conspiracy.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
It was a lie then, it is a lie now.

The first recount went to Bush
The second recount went to Bush
The Supreme Court agreed Bush Won
and a 6 month study by in 2001 by New York Times, CNN and The Washington Post verified Bush won.

Sorry, you are wrong, you heard only half the story, I am sorry but what he says is not a LIE, "had a full and fair recount been done, Gore would have won florida." as he says.

Were you even in Florida? Did you see the ballots? I did, I was there working with Harris and many others. Our pleas were denied because "its too late" Fine. The fact still remains if the full state would have had a full recount Gore would have been president in 2001.

The state ruled to only count certain votes for whatever reason, not saying there was a agenda, they ruled that and the evidence WAS NOT ALLOWED to be presented to the court so the court saw NO REASON to do a full recount.

I have the final tallies somewhere, we were allowed only 80% of the papers but it was every county that was under question.

It is a shame and a disgrace to democracy that a close election a election by a few votes would be denied a full recount, it is a shame nothing we presented was looked at especially since he handily won the popular vote.


The reasons are summed up in a paper by Jim Naureckas

"IN JOURNALISM, it's called "burying the lead": A story starts off with what everyone already knows, while the real news - the most surprising, significant or never-been-told-before information - gets pushed down where people are less likely to see it.

That's what happened to the findings of the media study of the uncounted votes from last year's Florida presidential vote. A consortium of news outlets - including The New York Times, The Washington Post, Tribune Co. (Newsday's parent company), The Wall Street Journal, Associated Press and CNN - spent nearly a year and $900,000 reexamining every disputed ballot.

The consortium determined that if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed the ongoing recount to go through, George W. Bush would still likely have ended up in the White House. That's because the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court - as well as the more limited recount asked for by Democratic candidate Al Gore - only involved so-called undervotes, ballots that when counted mechanically registered no choice for president.

Gore and the Florida Supreme Court ignored overvotes - votes where mechanical counting registered more than one vote - on the assumption that there would be no way to tell which of the multiple candidates the voter actually intended to pick.

But as the consortium found when it actually looked at the overvotes, one often could tell what the voter's intent was. Many of the overvotes involved, for example, a voter punching the hole next to a candidate's name, and then writing in the same candidate's name.

Since the intent of the voter is clear, these are clearly valid votes under Florida law. And Gore picked up enough of such votes that it almost didn't matter what standard you used when looking at undervotes - whether you counted every dimple or insisted on a fully punched chad, the consortium found that Gore ended up the winner of virtually any full reexamination of rejected ballots.

So there are two main findings: The Supreme Court's intervention probably did not affect the outcome of the limited recounts then under way, and more people probably cast valid votes for Gore than for Bush.

If the first finding was the important news, the consortium was scooped long ago: The Miami Herald and USA Today, working as a separate team, published stories in April that argued persuasively that the particular recounts that were halted by the Supreme Court probably would have produced a Bush victory.

What's new is the finding that, since voters are supposed to decide elections rather than lawyers or judges, the state's electoral votes appear to have gone to the wrong candidate. Given that the outcome in Florida determined the national victor, this is not just news but a critical challenge to the legitimacy of the presidency.

So how did the media report the results of the ballot reexamination?Overwhelmingly, they chose to lead with the news that was comfortable, uncontroversial - and seven months old. "In Election Review, Bush Wins Without Supreme Court Help," was The Wall Street Journal's headline on its story, paralleling The New York Times' "Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote." That angle would be fine if you believed that the Supreme Court was the most important aspect of the story; but what about the presidency?

Other members of the consortium emphasized the most Bush-friendly aspects of the story: "Bush Still Had Votes to Win in a Recount, Study Finds," was the Tribune Co.'s Los Angeles Times' main headline on its report, matching The Washington Post's "Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush" and CNN.com's "Florida Recount Study: Bush Still Wins." The St. Petersburg Times' Web site put it succinctly: "Recount: Bush." While some of these outlets tried to convey greater complexity in subheads, all these headlines obscure the fact that the outlets' most comprehensive recount put Gore ahead of Bush.

Emphasizing the old and conventional while playing down the new and controversial is a recipe for being ignored, and sure enough, few outlets that were not part of the consortium did much with the findings. A story that may well be mentioned in high school history classes a hundred years from now didn't even merit an editorial comment from most newspapers.

It's tempting to attribute this coyness to Sept. 11, and news outlets' reluctance to undermine the legitimacy of the presidency when the country is at war. But the coverage of the consortium's findings is similar to the way earlier media recounts were handled; even the most preliminary Miami Herald/USA Today ballot stories prompted "Bush Really Won" stories across the country. Similarly, when Bush's inauguration was greeted by raucous marchers contesting his victory, many outlets played down the significance of the protests. The New York Times virtually ignored them.

War or no war, many journalists are instinctively protective of the legitimacy of the institutions they cover, but the job of a journalist is not to promote but to question. The theory behind the First Amendment is that the system will be strengthened by an unflinching look at the system's flaws. In looking back at the results of the Florida election, the media flinched."

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Let me guess... They are all part of the evil Republican conspiracy.

Oh please, you just liked to think we are all nuts, because we just want what is fair, I guess that scares you, I dunno.

If you walked in to the voting booth and cast you vote, you handed the vote card to me and I tore it in half and threw it out, how would you feel.

Same thing when you vote isn't counted or worse, counted improperly!

[mikellanes]

Thur 6th Jan, 2005 Freepress

REBIRTH OF THE U.S. CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT

By now, the Election Fraud issue has helped crystalize
a broad-based coalition of opposition --with election
reform objectives beyond the recent election fraud.

Win or Lose on Thursday, this political movement of
Progressive Democrats, Alternative Green/Lib politics,
disillusioned Black Congressional Caucus members and
grassroots opponents of Bush-era policies and war crimes,
will only gain in strength and momentum.

Any level of win will embolden the opposition.
Any level of defeat will broaden support and deepen determination.

The best kept secret has been the scale of the current opposition.
Many more than 1 Senator and 1 Rep will challenge.

Another largely unnoticed aspect is that the House Judiciary
Report -despite the public face of not challenging the outcome
for Bush, uses language that clearly questions his reelection.

Already in China, media have realized the significance.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_406409.htm

The election fraud was the bridge too far.
A sleeping giant is awakening.

[eep]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Oh please, you just liked to think we are all nuts, because we just want what is fair, I guess that scares you, I dunno.

If you walked in to the voting booth and cast you vote, you handed the vote card to me and I tore it in half and threw it out, how would you feel.

Same thing when you vote isn't counted or worse, counted improperly!

This threat should be re-named what went RIGHT in Ohio.

Maybe you can refine your whining when Hillery loses in 08.

[ebuddy]

If I recall, the Republicans were calling for a 'full recount' in Florida. The Dems only wanted the recounts in primarily democratic counties. How many military ballots were disenfranchised Mikellanes, do you also have those numbers handy somewhere? I'm for a fair election process, but I also realize you have humans that run these things and as such human error will always enter the equation. I wonder how concerned you'd have been over an election process if say...Kerry had been elected? You say to put aside the partisanship, but that's what this is all about. It's getting old. It is time to 'MoveOn'.

I'm also curious why these alleged cases of 'fraud' only occur in the swing states...hmmm. You're only concerned with fairness in the election process? How about starting in Wyoming, then make your way east. I mean, let's make sure it's fair right? Kills me, just kills me.

There are supposedly a great many Canadians ready to welcome you home Mikellanes.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by eep:
This threat should be re-named what went RIGHT in Ohio.
Maybe you can refine your whining when Hillery loses in 08.

I wouldn't vote for Hillary unless she proved herself over the next 4 years...
I will vote for Guilliani if he is in the 2008 race.

[jbartone]

I thought the main problem in Florida back in 2000 were the 2,000 or so Democrats who accidentally voted Buchanan in Palm Beach county and cost Gore the election?

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
I wonder how concerned you'd have been over an election process if say...Kerry had been elected?

My plane ticket to FL was purchased well before any votes were cast, you don't know me, yet you paint with a broad brush, why is that?

I'm also curious why these alleged cases of 'fraud' only occur in the swing states...hmmm. You're only concerned with fairness in the election process? How about starting in Wyoming, then make your way east. I mean, let's make sure it's fair right? Kills me, just kills me.

Hello, there were other groups involved, they recounted NH if you recall. I was involved in FL (again) and because we were back stabbed none of our finding will be available today, thats the way it goes when people are power hungry, and I will live with that.

There are supposedly a great many Canadians ready to welcome you home Mikellanes.

Wow, what a rude thing to say when I have done nothing to you, hey listen I love it here, and I wouldn't live anywhere else, I just want fair FOR ALL elections. And that means blue state too, tell me since you know something about election investigations, how many CTA's were from a solid blue state, take NY for example, do you know? 16. How many from TX? 28. How many from NH? 117. How many from FL? 3,648. OH? almost 8,000.

There is reason the states are investigated, you find something going on in a solid state and have someone investigate, I haven't seen enough to warrant any.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by jbartone:
I thought the main problem in Florida back in 2000 were the 2,000 or so Democrats who accidentally voted Buchanan in Palm Beach county and cost Gore the election?

Well, that was 2,000 votes, but if you couldn't understand that card you have bigger problems
Ill admit it wasn't the best laid out, but that is no excuse.

[eep]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
If I recall, the Republicans were calling for a 'full recount' in Florida. The Dems only wanted the recounts in primarily democratic counties. How many military ballots were disenfranchised Mikellanes, do you also have those numbers handy somewhere? I'm for a fair election process, but I also realize you have humans that run these things and as such human error will always enter the equation. I wonder how concerned you'd have been over an election process if say...Kerry had been elected? You say to put aside the partisanship, but that's what this is all about. It's getting old. It is time to 'MoveOn'.

I'm also curious why these alleged cases of 'fraud' only occur in the swing states...hmmm. You're only concerned with fairness in the election process? How about starting in Wyoming, then make your way east. I mean, let's make sure it's fair right? Kills me, just kills me.

There are supposedly a great many Canadians ready to welcome you home Mikellanes.

The new Democratic mantra. "Keep counting until we win!"

Want proof look at the state of Washington. Ballots mysteriously found it a "warehouse". Now that's stealing a election. Oh and more votes were cast in King county than there were registered voters. Opps.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, YOU get over it. I'm tired of the damned whiners.

You lost, period. Start on your campaign for 2008, or, I guarantee we'll be handing you your ass... again.

Where does it show the TIME on the photo? Or, are we supposed to take the news outlet's word for it? More importantly, however, people know it's difficult when you WAIT UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE TO VOTE. If a person's too stupid to know that they should vote early in the day (unless they're just absolutely not able), or better yet, to mail in their ballot, then not much can be done to help them. Hell, I went at 8am and was done in 5 minutes.

"I waited until 11:30pm to vote, and now I can't get in... I've been disenfranchised, boo-hoo!"

You are a dick. Get over youself.

We won and nothing is gonna change that. You could change your attitude OTOH. Pathetic and childish (I'm assuming you're more than 12 of course -- if not I take this all back)

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by eep:
Want proof look at the state of Washington. Ballots mysteriously found it a "warehouse". Now that's stealing a election. Oh and more votes were cast in King county than there were registered voters. Opps.

Did you know the state certified every vote that was found?

From CNN: "The discovery brings the number of belatedly discovered ballots to 723 in the heavily Democratic county -- potentially enough to swing the election to Democrat Christine Gregoire."

So you want us to believe the Dems HID THIER OWN VOTES? hahaha Talk about conspiracy theorists!

On King County:

"County auditors and election officials say Republicans have based their conclusions on there being many more votes than voters on preliminary lists, and they say much of the deviation would be accounted for as voter lists are updated.
But they do not dispute that the numbers don't add up.
And most agree they never will."

You need to research more, unless you are being sarcastic...

[ebuddy]

Wow, what a rude thing to say when I have done nothing to you, hey listen I love it here, and I wouldn't live anywhere else, I just want fair FOR ALL elections.

No you don't. Only highly contestable Democratic swing states and democratic precincts. You weren't ham-strung any more than Republicans were in their attempts.

And that means blue state too, tell me since you know something about election investigations, how many CTA's were from a solid blue state, take NY for example, do you know? 16. How many from TX? 28. How many from NH? 117. How many from FL? 3,648. OH? almost 8,000.

There's a reason they call 'em "swing-states" Mikellanes. I'm well aware. I'm also well aware of fraudulent attempts by BOTH SIDES to manipulate the election process by disenfranchising the votes of those who are serving in the highest capacity possible; offering life and limb in service to this country. (also, ironically primarily Bush supporters) When you find a flawless way to provide voting mechanisms for EVERY US citizen let me know. While you're at it, how much money is needed and how extensive does the investigation need to be to determine a Fair election? If it provides thousands of more votes for Bush, does this mean it was MORE fair? Can you not concede, that overall the vote was successful and a decision was made in general or will you not be happy until you see your desired end? Odds would have it (if you were to count ALL precincts again) Bush would expand his lead. He won the popular vote handly, AND the electoral vote. I'm telling you for the sake of sanity and all that is reasonable in this world...enough. It is a human process, in some cases wrought with human error and manipulation by a select few on both sides, but the masses made the decision. Take the $50 million left over from the Kerry campaign and in instead of using it to contest election results in areas you're hoping will provide a couple more votes for Kerry at the expense of finding a couple hundred more for Bush; give it to charity. Fair and honest indeed. I paint with the brush you gave me from viewing numerous posts of yours, using the color our country decided it wanted to see on November 2nd; red.

I want honest discourse, fair play, and good sportsmanship the kind Kerry has generally displayed. I want both sides to be scrutinized for their ideals in a well-rounded way. This recent mentality of the conspiracy junkie, the evil Republican, and all that is unfair is exactly the type of mentality that is bringing down the only party that can hold the current party in power, accountable. Why does this concern me? Because I too love this country and would live nowhere else.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
You are a dick. Get over youself.

We won and nothing is gonna change that. You could change your attitude OTOH. Pathetic and childish (I'm assuming you're more than 12 of course -- if not I take this all back)

Umm. Twilly, you need to back up there, I'm a Republican and was commenting on mikellanes post. I think you quoted the wrong poster.


But then again, if you really did intend that for me, it's no skin off my nose. This is hardly the first time a poster on MacNN has called me names. I've gotten used to abuse from the "Left".

[eep]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Did you know the state certified every vote that was found?

From CNN: "The discovery brings the number of belatedly discovered ballots to 723 in the heavily Democratic county -- potentially enough to swing the election to Democrat Christine Gregoire."

So you want us to believe the Dems HID THIER OWN VOTES? hahaha Talk about conspiracy theorists!

On King County:

"County auditors and election officials say Republicans have based their conclusions on there being many more votes than voters on preliminary lists, and they say much of the deviation would be accounted for as voter lists are updated.
But they do not dispute that the numbers don't add up.
And most agree they never will."

You need to research more, unless you are being sarcastic...

Hide? No but found in a warehouse is strange and they were found after two re-counts?

"County auditors and election officials say Republicans have based their conclusions on there being many more votes than voters on preliminary lists, and they say much of the deviation would be accounted for as voter lists are updated.
But they do not dispute that the numbers don't add up.
And most agree they never will."

And you're complaining about the Ohio vote?

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
No you don't. Only highly contestable Democratic swing states and democratic precincts. You weren't ham-strung any more than Republicans were in their attempts.

Oh please STFU, you know nothing about this, we search EVERY precinct, yes ones where Dems won by a landslide and found errors there too.

When you find a flawless way to provide voting mechanisms for EVERY US citizen let me know.

We can, and should, start with a transparent voting process, Mc Donalds can give me a correct receipt 99% of the time, but when I vote I get nothing, no one knows, in some cases only a black box.

If it provides thousands of more votes for Bush, does this mean it was MORE fair?

Possibly, you are still on the Bush/Kerry thing, GET OVER IT. I votes Republican in MANY MANY elections, this is about fixing the system, **** Kerry **** Bush they both suck. I just want fair elections and that would be a step forward to a viable 3rd party IMO.

Can you not concede, that overall the vote was successful and a decision was made in general or will you not be happy until you see your desired end?

I OPENLY ADMIT that this election decision is one I think most of america wants, but NO i will not be happy with a half-assed election system when there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of reported problems.

Odds would have it (if you were to count ALL precincts again) Bush would expand his lead.

Sorry, I have PHYSICAL proof to the contrary, at least in Florida, and It will come out, whether or not it will come out in a spur to further someone else's agenda is not up to me, sorry.

The facts I have is foul play in Florida, was it enough to swing the election? probably not, not here in Florida anyway...

He won the popular vote handly, AND the electoral vote.

I Agreed, never did I disagree on this, even without OH he won both, so what?

I'm telling you for the sake of sanity and all that is reasonable in this world...enough.

Listen, had this been a closer election the problems (fraudulent or not) could have swung the election, are you happy with that? If so good for you, be content and shut up, I am not happy with a process with that many problems, so I will speak my mind and try to do what I can.

It is a human process, in some cases wrought with human error and manipulation by a select few on both sides,

From what I have seem in FL, it is more than a few, it is the whole board, and only one side, show me something I missed? Show me Democrats manipulating the vote in Florida go ahead!

Take the $50 million left over from the Kerry campaign and in instead of using it to contest election results in areas you're hoping will provide a couple more votes for Kerry at the expense of finding a couple hundred more for Bush

What are you talking about? Who is spending Kerry's money, only Kerry has control of that.

I want both sides to be scrutinized for their ideals in a well-rounded way.

You just don't want to be involved, that is fine, others will be.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by eep:
Hide? No but found in a warehouse is strange and they were found after two re-counts?

Did it ever cross your mind they were misplaced and someone found them at that time? nah, it needs to be a conspiracy....

As I said, the votes were found to be legit, the voters were registered and the votes were certified.

And you're complaining about the Ohio vote?

I am complaining about all the vote problems, so-far this [OH] is the only one someone will stand up and represent.