[ZLIsom92]

me and my friend always fight because im a windows guy and have always been ever since 1998 when i first got my first computer,and my friend,well hes has like 4ibooks and he just got a 20" imac for graduation and like i said we've always fought about which one is better windows and macs and im kinda thinking of switchin to a mac but the problem is....im a big gamer,and gaming on mac=major suckage,unless you do bootcamp but that will mean ill have to fork out $200 AFTER i sepnd a bunch more just for a mpretty case when i can pay way less and get a windows PC thats waywayway faster...

so i guess what im saying is convince me why i should become a mac user and why its just sooo much better according to all you apple users

[harrisjamieh]

You know all that crashing you get on your computer, forget about it if you get a Mac.

You know the loud noises your computer makes? forget about it on a Mac.

You know all the time when Windows doesn't do something right (like connecting to wireless)? Forget about it on Mac...

You know how everything requires drivers and crap on a PC? Forget about it on a Mac

etc

[ajprice]

If you're worried about games, get a Mac and a game console, or keep your PC as a games machine.

[ZLIsom92]

hmm i guess i could do that 2nd thing


but i was thinking of saving up for a mac mini,are those any good?

[stwain2003]

If you get the 2GB of RAM they are. 512 is too slow. And that goes for any mac. Probably 1GB would be good even.

Also, what are you looking to use it for?

[kmkkid]

Why would you be forking out more money for windows if you're currently already using a copy?

Oh, and the new iMac is pretty damn fast and cheap.

[waterbuck]

I think Mac's generally handle most tasks more simply and more elegantly. Okay, that's not news.

But PC's are fine for plenty of stuff, and they do play the latest games. Moreover, if you are thiking about putting XP on a new Mac mini, you need to consider that probably you could still get a better "gaming rig" by just getting a higher-powered PC. The Mini can play games but it is probably not going to be a solid gaming rig for FPS games, or at least not as good as a cheap PC or an iMac.

Check the various shootouts at barefeas.com

http://www.barefeats.com/mincd.html

[parsec_kadets]

Honestly this discussion belongs in the OSX forum. Your question is about Macs in general, not iMacs or Mac minis specifically. But I'll bite.
I'm a bit confused. One of your knocks against the Mac is that it's not a caming system. Then you say you want to get the worst possible gaming Mac available. I understand that money is a concern, but if you're not willing or able to pay for a Mac with a better graphics card then don't complain. I have the 17" iMac and it handles WoW just fine. The only time I get less than 50 FPS on a regular basis is when I'm in 40 man groups. When I'm not I almost always get 60+ FPS. This is with almost all settings set as high as they go.

Why is OS X better? One reason for me is because it's UNIX, which I use every day at work (even though I work for a windows centric company).

I also don't like the model in Windows where every app is designed to take up the full screen. The first complaint I hear from Windows users who try OS X is "why is it so difficult to maximize?" To which I usually respond, "Why are you trying to maximize? Is the screen too small?"

Moving files around tends to feel like a chore in Windows. First you have to navigate to the folder where the file is. Then you have to select the file, go to the file menu and choose cut, then in the same window navigate to where you want the file to be, go to the file menu and choose paste. How many clicks is that? A dozen? Maybe two dozen even? On a Mac I just find the file I want to move, click and hold, drag the file to the disk I want it to be on, hold for a sec and the folder opens, repeat until I'm where I want the file to be, then release the mouse. If the file was on my desktop I just moved it with a single click. It's almost never more than 5 clicks.

Finally, why do I use a Mac? Why not? I've yet to find a single program that I need to use, outside of games, that I can't either buy a Mac version of, or find an equally good or better equivilant for on the Mac. Sure there are some examples out there, but I've never needed to use any of the ones I've seen mentioned.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by parsec_kadets

Why is OS X better? One reason for me is because it's UNIX

OSX is not UNIX.

/pet peeve

[dimmer]

Per Apple:

UNIX-based

Beneath the easy-to-use interface and rich graphics of Mac OS X lies Darwin, an open source, UNIX-based foundation built on such technologies as mach and FreeBSD. With Tiger come significant enhancements to this UNIX foundation, including improvements to dual-processor support for increased performance when reading and writing files to disk and when using Mac OS X with NFS file servers.

UNIX users will feel right at home because Mac OS X offers a complete X Window System implementation for running X11-based applications. Fully integrated with the OS, X11 for Mac OS X, based on the open source XFree86 project, gives UNIX users the ability to run thousands of X11 applications concurrently with other Mac OS X applications.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview...echnology.html

Of course it's not UNIX, ever tried talking yo mama how to work PINE? It's Better Than UNIX!

[iRussel]

I have the 20" iMac (see my signature) I also like to play the occasional game, just finished Call Of Duty 2, awesome game. I'm now playing Half Life 2 using bootcamp and its works perfectly. By a Intel iMac and get two computers in one. Oh and btw as soon as I'm done playing a game in XP I get the hell out of Windows because there is nothing worth doing in it besides playing a game that isnt available for the Mac. Who knows with Yahoo bringing out a decent messaging client for OS X there might be some hope for the game developers too.

[ZLIsom92]

hmm well earlier i was thinkin "well then ill save up for a imac then because they convinced me enough."

but i just finished finding all the peices i would need for a budget PC and that totaled up to only $724(without monitor,mouse,and keyboard)


now would you rather save $724 and get a windows PC you built really good for the price which can play games fantastic and soon will be better because for windows vista and directx 10.or save $1299 for a 17" imac with its really nice interface and all that good stuff like ilife and OS X tiger and lepeord coming soon.hard to choose...


and o ya i installed the call of duty 2 demo onto my friends 20"imac and it plays fantastic!!doesnt look as good without directx 9 buts its still has great FPS so thats help with me choosing imac

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ZLIsom92

and o ya i installed the call of duty 2 demo onto my friends 20"imac and it plays fantastic!!doesnt look as good without directx 9 buts its still has great FPS so thats help with me choosing imac

I actually installed that same demo on my MBP and was stunned by how well it ran. No stuttering, no glitches and very good image quality. I didn't expect that from a modern 3D game running on a Mac with a notebook GPU.

That said, if you add a decent widescreen monitor, keyboard and mouse to those $724 you'll be getting closer to the iMac's $1299. If I were you I'd look at the remaining price difference as the premium to pay for

• a superior OS that gives me a lot less headaches and lets me just play games or get work done w/o worrying about irrational behavior, security threats, etc.
• a great set of included apps - I'd have to spend real $$$ to get equivalent quality apps on the other OS
• the freedom to install and run all three major OSes around today (possibly next to each other)
• awesome looking and high quality hardware
• getting to know a different OS and app world

OTOH if you're really just interested in games I'd consider a console or actually that do-it-yopurself PC setup you mentioned.

[kamina]

Personally I did'nt have problems with Windows crashing for years (not with Tiger either). While I occasionally had problems with SOME devices drivers, they where also fairly rare (granted installing compatible devices on a mac is alot easier).

What makes using a mac worth it for me, is how easy and intuitive everything is. I get stuff done with less clicks, and less gray hair. Sleeping works better then on a pc, meaning instant startup (I only shut down the computer when an update requires it). After learning where everything is (I do recomend reading some book) everything just feels to be so simple "as it should be".

This is from somebody who knows how to use Windows pretty well (several years system administrator, and years of helpdesk work before that).

[onlykaria]

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

You know all that crashing you get on your computer, forget about it if you get a Mac.

You know the loud noises your computer makes? forget about it on a Mac.

You know all the time when Windows doesn't do something right (like connecting to wireless)? Forget about it on Mac...

You know how everything requires drivers and crap on a PC? Forget about it on a Mac

etc

not true (ugh thinking about my old mbp and its constant crashes/kernal panics that took apple ages to fix)

yes this is true, but the trade is that you laptop fan never comes on and it is sometimes to hot to touch

too vague, to say.

somewhat true, the mac comes with gigabytes of useless preinstalled drivers. however, it is true that cameras, usb drives mice and much more doesnt really need drivers under os x. but printers still do.

[parsec_kadets]

Originally Posted by kamina

Personally I did'nt have problems with Windows crashing for years (not with Tiger either). While I occasionally had problems with SOME devices drivers, they where also fairly rare (granted installing compatible devices on a mac is alot easier).

What makes using a mac worth it for me, is how easy and intuitive everything is. I get stuff done with less clicks, and less gray hair. Sleeping works better then on a pc, meaning instant startup (I only shut down the computer when an update requires it). After learning where everything is (I do recomend reading some book) everything just feels to be so simple "as it should be".

This is from somebody who knows how to use Windows pretty well (several years system administrator, and years of helpdesk work before that).

And yet I ran into problems just last week at work. Our company was bought about a year and a half ago. The old company used some VPN software I never heard of before. The new company uses Cisco. I had the software installed for the older VPNs since I use those somewhat often. Last week I needed to use the Cisco software. What happens when you have two VPN programs installed? The network card stops working and you eventually get a blue screen of death. I spent most of the morning booting into safe mode, uninstalling, installing, and rebooting so many times I lost count. Oh, and when I was done my trackpad didn't work. I had to reinstall the drivers for that and reboot a few more times to get it working again. I've never encountered anything close to this annoying in OS X.

[kamina]

Originally Posted by parsec_kadets

And yet I ran into problems just last week at work. Our company was bought about a year and a half ago. The old company used some VPN software I never heard of before. The new company uses Cisco. I had the software installed for the older VPNs since I use those somewhat often. Last week I needed to use the Cisco software. What happens when you have two VPN programs installed? The network card stops working and you eventually get a blue screen of death. I spent most of the morning booting into safe mode, uninstalling, installing, and rebooting so many times I lost count. Oh, and when I was done my trackpad didn't work. I had to reinstall the drivers for that and reboot a few more times to get it working again. I've never encountered anything close to this annoying in OS X.

Sure, I do believe OSX is a superior operating system (as you probably do too). I'm just saying the differance is not close to as big as stated. Windows requires a diffferant kind of mentality, persoanlly I don't think I would try to install two VPN clients on the same windows machine (just as I would not try to install two antivirus softwares on it). This is another thing that annoys me about windows, it's somehow fiddly, and when you manage to upset it you are (often) doomed.

On another note, we are having big problems with Macs and VPN where I work. The problem is, that we can't find a vpn client that supports all the features we need.

[Agent69]

Originally Posted by dimmer

Per Apple:

UNIX-based

It doesn't matter what Apple says, it what the Open Group says. Unix is a trademark and specification controlled of the Open Group and Apple is violating their trademark everytime they use it. That's why the Open Group has sued them.

Mac OS X is not Unix.

[parsec_kadets]

Originally Posted by kamina

Sure, I do believe OSX is a superior operating system (as you probably do too). I'm just saying the differance is not close to as big as stated. Windows requires a diffferant kind of mentality, persoanlly I don't think I would try to install two VPN clients on the same windows machine (just as I would not try to install two antivirus softwares on it). This is another thing that annoys me about windows, it's somehow fiddly, and when you manage to upset it you are (often) doomed.

This mentality is usually fine and dandy when you just need to connect to your own company's vpn. But sooner or later the realities of business will require that you connect to a client's vpn to access their data, and this client will use different vpn software than you. Microsoft seems to think that everyone should use the VPN software built into XP, so they have no interest in providing support for thrid parties. Yet I'm the one that needs to adjust my mentaility.

[dimmer]

Originally Posted by Agent69

It doesn't matter what Apple says, it what the Open Group says. Unix is a trademark and specification controlled of the Open Group and Apple is violating their trademark everytime they use it. That's why the Open Group has sued them.

Mac OS X is not Unix.

That was my point: Apple doesn't say it is, I don't say it is, your point is somewhat vapid: Mac OS X is also not PR1MEOS, also not MS-DOS, also not CP/M - it's hard to see your point other than being pedantic. Unix is not UNIX, get over it.

[Dillon-K]

Disclaimer: I <3 Macs, don't get me wrong.

You see, though, until the Intel chip transition has been complete and some software has been updated, new Mac owners are going to have to deal with things like Rosetta and universal apps that they usually wouldn't have to... so while I'm all for the Intel switch it's not a simple as everyone says in that everything just works flawlessly on the Mac. Does anyone see my point?

[brokenjago]

Yes.

[debohun]

It is interesting to note the general tendency for those advocating or defending Macs to have very good grammar and spelling in their posts; while the Windows defenders and advocates are either close to illiterate or perhaps just incredibly sloppy. Can this possibly be just a coincidence, or more likely an indicator of a cultural divide?

[RogueSqdn]

Would explain something about me... I can't stand misspelling and poor typing. And I see a lot of it on the flightsim and gaming boards I frequent (and being a developer/tester in the FreeFalcon group, I check a lot of them).

[ajprice]

No its just that a Mac has a built in spellchecker so whenever you type something wrong in Mac OS X you get a red line under it, right click the word and you get a list of spellings for what it thinks the word is . Yet another reason to get a Mac (the little things count)

[MacnnGregor]

One way to maybe feel better about your iMac purchase is that with an iMac you can use the display you already have with your old pc as a second display right out of the box!!! I have dual display at home and work with my PowerBook and it is by far the way to go. Single display is for the coffee shop and travel!!

So buy the more expensive iMac knowing you can offset the price of the extra screen by owning an extra screen and live the good life with all of the iApps for really only a a little over $100 than the made it yourself way. BTW my family is pc with a couple of made-by-a-tech-friend boxes and they have lost data and had problems that easily cost more than if they had gotten a Mac initially. Those statistics are easy to find!

Good luck.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by debohun

It is interesting to note the general tendency for those advocating or defending Macs to have very good grammar and spelling in their posts; while the Windows defenders and advocates are either close to illiterate or perhaps just incredibly sloppy. Can this possibly be just a coincidence, or more likely an indicator of a cultural divide?

Mostly coincidence probably.

[McDave]

Originally Posted by ZLIsom92

now would you rather save $724 and get a windows PC you built really good for the price which can play games fantastic and soon will be better because for windows vista and directx 10.or save $1299 for a 17" imac with its really nice interface and all that good stuff like ilife and OS X tiger and lepeord coming soon.hard to choose...

It depends on what's important for you. The specs may look the same (maybe the PC is higher) but it's the software that determines what YOU WILL ACTUALLY do with your system. For games the PC wins but if you want to create & organise your digital life - iLife is still unbeatable. The PC has more, similar titles but HOW they work means you'll rarely use them 3 times (once to convince yourself, twice to convince your friends & that's it).

Ask all of your Windows friends with DVD writers to show you their home DVDs or web sites... now ask the Mac guys...

McD

[LordJohnWhorfin]

When you get one of the new Intel-based Macs, you're really getting a well-made, well-supported PC with high resell value that can do what no other PC can: run Apple's highly acclaimed OS and applications. No wonder the MacBooks are flying off the shelves; unless you're a games-obsessed kid (in which case you should check out the education prices for the MacBook Pro) the MacBook is a compelling bargain: for barely more than the price of a low-end PC laptop you get a high quality PC laptop with several built-in goodies like a top-quality webcam, a sudden motion sensor, a magnetic power cord connector and bluetooth; and you also get a Mac. To me, that's a no brainer.

[imitchellg5]

Buy a Mac cause they look hot.

[piano4te]

Originally Posted by debohun

It is interesting to note the general tendency for those advocating or defending Macs to have very good grammar and spelling in their posts; while the Windows defenders and advocates are either close to illiterate or perhaps just incredibly sloppy. Can this possibly be just a coincidence, or more likely an indicator of a cultural divide?

Well said. It would be an interesting study to look into that further.

No disrespect to all the great charitable things Billy is doing with the billions of dollars Windows users are providing him with...
...but the fact that I never hear about long-time Mac users raving about the new Windows pc they just switched to; or raving about the new features they just saw in a new version of Windows; or starting forums to be convinced to switch to a Windows pc; hmmmm MAYBE that could be a hint to why a Mac is the way to go.

And no disrespect to gamers in general - but if someone is so much into playing games that all the other benefits of a Mac aren't enough reason to switch - then personally I'd rather they not own a Mac. It would be a waste.
THINK DIFFERENT.

[::maroma::]

Would you rather chill with Darth Vader or hang loose with Han Solo?

[JulesLt]

If you're really into games, I'd honestly say stick with the PC, or wait for the new Mac desktop machines (the lowest end 'MacPro' will be a good gaming rig and roughly in the same bracket as a good (i.e. Alienware, Evesham, Mesh) gaming PC.

Personally - I'm using a PowerPC based Mac Mini with 512Mb memory and I'm completely happy with it as it does everything I require. It's just taken me 3 machines to work out that what I require is something near silent for web-browsing, document and code-editing. It copes surprisingly well with video editing, but I don't do enough to want to replace it.

Why switch to Mac? Well it's taken me a year to get round to the idea I can drag an image from one app into another (not cut/paste) and it will - 9 times out of 10 - work. (Ditto text, audio, etc). That's largely down to the fact that most OS X apps are new enough to take advantage of the core APIs. I like the fact every text box has spell-checking, and it's the same dictionary in every app. It's small things like that which boost your productivity.

The main reason is the apps : If I only played games and used Word I'd have stuck with Windows, but : OmniGraffle, CoverFlow, Comic Life, Delicious Library, TextMate, GarageBand, Keynote are some immediate reasons why I prefer OS X. And even MS Office is nicer than the current Windows one (though maybe not the next one).

There is a good argument that Macs attract developers (and consumers) who care about good application design. (Sometimes that also means they choose looks over functionality, which is not good design). In short, people who program for the Mac are mostly doing it because they're Mac fans first, wanting to make a business out of what they love, rather than businesses looking for the largest return on their investment.

If the platform expands and becomes a target for the more commercial developers I'm sure this will go down the tubes. It will also be interesting to see how MS developers use Vista; it's already possible to create a more 'Apple' like interface for a Windows app, but I suspect it just isn't in the DNA of most software companies.

(I work for one and I'm the token Mac user; I'd say that most of our software designers and developers spend their days using badly designed software - or at least tools designed for niche professional work (Eclipse, Dreamweaver) which is a long way from our target audience).

True story : I knocked up some titles in 15 minutes using Keynote, dropped in with some video in iMovie and ran the whole lot out through a theme in iDVD and our sales and marketing person said it would have cost about 4 grand to get a firm to do it. (The design firm they use, use Macs!).

Lastly : It's now a truly great machine to learn to program on. I'd never have said that about Macs in the past. It makes programming fun in the way it was in the 80s. That might just be me - I'm sure other people get the same buzz out of Linux or even Windows, but I never felt the urge to write anything on Windows.

[JulesLt]

Quoting from :http://daringfireball.net/2002/09/on_joel_on_software

'Windows software ported to the Mac almost always fails. Mac software ported to Windows very often succeeds' (links in original compare Corel with Photoshop).

'Given a choice between two otherwise unmarked software packages, one labeled “more features”, the other labeled “better designed interface”, most Mac users will choose the latter. Mac users value attention to detail and intuitive, consistent, attractive interfaces. Developers who share these values would do well to create software for the Mac, where they are likely to be rewarded handsomely for their efforts. Developers who would prefer to program more features with less attention to detail should not.'

[Mojo]

i jest cant bee bothered 2 anser a kwesshun wen the righter wont mak the effort to chek spelling grammer ant punctuashun

[imitchellg5]

I would think that the new iMac would be great for Windows games with the 256 mb graphics card. I can understand being frustrated not wanting to buy a $200 copy of Windows when you already have a PC. If I was you I would buy a 20 inch iMac with 1 gig of RAM and the 256 mb graphics card.

[lamewing]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Why would you be forking out more money for windows if you're currently already using a copy?

Oh, and the new iMac is pretty damn fast and cheap.

Because bootcamp requires Windows XP SP2. I, myself, run XP professional (free copy from school), but it is SP1 and needs to download the updates when updating. I couldn't use this version of XP with bootcamp, so I also would need to buy a full version. Having said that you can get a legal OEM version of XP professional for $138.00 and a Home version for $88.00. Bootcamp uses EITHER version, so the price would be much cheaper than folks keep talking about.

[lamewing]

Originally Posted by Agent69

It doesn't matter what Apple says, it what the Open Group says. Unix is a trademark and specification controlled of the Open Group and Apple is violating their trademark everytime they use it. That's why the Open Group has sued them.

Mac OS X is not Unix.

Mac OSX is based on BSD, which is based on UNIX. The use of the word UNIX is not a trademark violation. If they stated that their OS WAS UNIX that would be a different story. This law suit is pointless, just as the cease-and-desist nonsense that Apple slapped on ipodlounge.com.

I guess it is just Karma biting them in the arse, though.

[lamewing]

Originally Posted by piano4te

Well said. It would be an interesting study to look into that further.

No disrespect to all the great charitable things Billy is doing with the billions of dollars Windows users are providing him with...
...but the fact that I never hear about long-time Mac users raving about the new Windows pc they just switched to; or raving about the new features they just saw in a new version of Windows; or starting forums to be convinced to switch to a Windows pc; hmmmm MAYBE that could be a hint to why a Mac is the way to go.

And no disrespect to gamers in general - but if someone is so much into playing games that all the other benefits of a Mac aren't enough reason to switch - then personally I'd rather they not own a Mac. It would be a waste.
THINK DIFFERENT.

No disprespect intended? The what did you mean to say with that comment?

Okay. Disrespect intended. Arrogant Pr&$(. This is hubris that really turns potential Mac buyers off of buying an Apple computer. I have had to put up with this mentality shortly after I bought my first Apple IIe and Apple introduced the first Mac. Just because you use a Mac doesn't make you a smarter or better person. I have both a gaming PC rig (that I built myself) and a new Mac laptop and can use both equally well. SORRY to ruin your day letting you know that I am a PC gamer and a Mac user too. I don't feel that I am a waste....cough...jerk.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by lamewing

Because bootcamp requires Windows XP SP2. I, myself, run XP professional (free copy from school), but it is SP1 and needs to download the updates when updating. I couldn't use this version of XP with bootcamp, so I also would need to buy a full version. Having said that you can get a legal OEM version of XP professional for $138.00 and a Home version for $88.00. Bootcamp uses EITHER version, so the price would be much cheaper than folks keep talking about.

With an XP SP1 install disk, SP2 redistributable, a computer running Windows, and about 15 minutes you can make a XP SP2 install disk.

[ZLIsom92]

this all so convincing lol

well before i do anything i need help with bootcamp

my friend finaly let me install windows onto his 20"imac(which im going with him to get his extra 1gig in it tomorrow )

but i installed windows XP SP1 instead of SP2 and it seemed to install fine and stuff

but i CAN NOT get the internet to work!!! >

does anyone know how to setup the internet when on windows bootcamp????

i need to know so i could test some games for their FPS to see how good theyll play,i got WoW on their in mac os x and that plays pretty good,30 FPS and some glitchyness because of the only 60hz screen refresh or something but it looks nice,i actually like playing on his imac then my computer because his screen just makes the colors and stuff just look so much better,maybe its just me but colors on mac are way better than windows

so if anyone can tell me how to get internet to work on windows on their plz let me know because that would be great


and has anyone been to one of those apple camp things before???
me and my friend went to one not knowing their was going to be a bunch of little kids their so it was very weird but o well,i learned how to use garageband and podcasting and i made a tight song on his comp with it lol

AND just one more thnig(sorry i had alot of questions)
my friend and me want to know if anyone has any info on what lepeord supposed to look like/whats gonna be different???

[mduell]

Originally Posted by ZLIsom92

does anyone know how to setup the internet when on windows bootcamp????

A bit of a shot in the dark, but install the network driver from the BootCamp driver CD?

[Sparksymusic]

I use Both PCs & Macs - my home is a network of 37 machines in total. I promise, mac is far less painful. Apple can be dificult to deal with but the bottom line is, they work! This weekend just gone, in the time it took to rebuild one PC (P3 1GB) I rebuilt 4 macs and they all work better that the bloody XP machine (mac1- iMac 266 running 8.6, mac2- iMac 333 running 10.3, mac3- G4 tower 400 running 10.4 & mac4- 7300 running 9.2). all of these machines run video & audio better than any PC I have. OS operation is smooth and most importantly, reliable. As for your games, you will find issues there - I use consoles for gaming and leave the computers for work. Hope this helps.

[Sparksymusic]

Sorry, I should have specified that Apple as a company can be hard to deal with - products are great!

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ZLIsom92

but i installed windows XP SP1 instead of SP2 and it seemed to install fine and stuff

No, it's not. Boot Camp explicitly requires XP SP2. Trying to force SP1 onto it is nothing but asking for trouble. I have none of the network problems you mentioned, but then again, I used Boot Camp with SP2.

[Dillon-K]

Originally Posted by Mojo

i jest cant bee bothered 2 anser a kwesshun wen the righter wont mak the effort to chek spelling grammer ant punctuashun

Hahaahahahahaha, PWN!!

[Agent69]

Originally Posted by lamewing

Mac OSX is based on BSD, which is based on UNIX. The use of the word UNIX is not a trademark violation. If they stated that their OS WAS UNIX that would be a different story. This law suit is pointless, just as the cease-and-desist nonsense that Apple slapped on ipodlounge.com.

Actually, I feel that Apple's use of the word Unix is a trademark violation, as they sell their OS as "UNIX based". And Apple's website strongly suggests to people that Mac OS X is based on Unix:

Beneath the surface of Mac OS X lies an industrial-strength UNIX foundation hard at work to ensure that your computing experience remains free of system crashes and compromised performance.

The most widely-sold UNIX-based operating system, Mac OS X offers a unique combination of technical elements to the discerning geek, such as fine-grained multithreading, Mach 3.0 microkernel, FreeBSD services, tight hardware integration and SMP-safe drivers, as well as zero configuration networking.

[Simon]

Mac OS X is based on Darwin which itself is based on the XNU kernel (Mach kernel + 4.3BSD + Driver Kit). It belongs to the BSD family which is a UNIX-like OS family. It isn't UNIX (the trademark) but it is Unix in the sense that it is a POSIX-compliant (this is actually the real standard - openly published by IEEE in the eighties) OS that behaves like UNIX.

The trademark issue is a legal nuisance. Think of it like tape - people says Scotch Tape even when they mean any kind of tape. And if you ask for Scotch Tape and somebody offers you some other brand you'll take it and you certainly won't start a lengthy discussion on how this is "technically not Scotch Tape".

Apple is not deceiving anybody here. People get the right picture when Apple says "UNIX-based" and "UNIX foundation" because it says in essence that OS X behaves like other UNIX flavors which is what customers want to know.

And to top things off: "Dennis Ritchie, one of the original creators of UNIX, has expressed his opinion that Unix-like systems such as Linux are de facto UNIX systems."

[Dillon-K]

About on all of this "OS X is not Unix" discussion: Although it's an interesting topic, don't you think it belongs in the "Mac OS X" forum, rather than a thread in which a switcher is asking for help? . thanks.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon

It isn't UNIX (the trademark) but it is Unix in the sense that it is a POSIX-compliant (this is actually the real standard - openly published by IEEE in the eighties) OS that behaves like UNIX.

In 2002 Jordan Hubbard, Apple's manager of BSD technologies, stated Apple implemented most of the POSIX standard, but not all. Has that changed to complete implementation in the last 4 years?