[iranfromthezoo]

I live in Mississippi, so it's really natural to be a Civil War buff because there is so much history. I was wondering if any of you guys have a interest in the civil war? Anyone have family that fought in the civil war or any cool stories. I know this is kind of a new topic and thought it would be cool to have a different topic.

[JoshuaZ]

I don't think my family was even in the US of A during the civil war. Maybe at the end of it. Eh.

Do you do Civil War reenactments?

[imitchellg5]

I'm not a big fan of the Civil War era. It is probably one of the worst times in our country's history. I think that the treatment of African Americans, especially in the South, was disgusting. Americans were basically xenophobic bigots. I hope we never repeat that.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I'm not a big fan of the Civil War era. It is probably one of the worst times in our country's history. I think that the treatment of African Americans, especially in the South, was disgusting. Americans were basically xenophobic bigots. I hope we never repeat that.

Actually, the treatment of non-whites was pretty bad up until a few decades ago. My grandmother used to see signs in her home town in the middle of Michigan saying "whites only". She is Mexican/Hispanic and had a very difficult time growing up.

And if you think American society is even near color blind then you are just plain ignorant.

I do find Civil War stories interesting, but it is a very recent interest over the last year or so. There are a lot of Civil War monuments here in Indianapolis that I have visited and photographed. WW I&II have been of great interest to me during the last decade or so.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Actually, the treatment of non-whites was pretty bad up until a few decades ago. My grandmother used to see signs in her home town in the middle of Michigan saying "whites only". She is Mexican/Hispanic and had a very difficult time growing up.

And if you think American society is even near color blind then you are just plain ignorant.

I do find Civil War stories interesting, but it is a very recent interest over the last year or so. There are a lot of Civil War monuments here in Indianapolis that I have visited and photographed. WW I&II have been of great interest to me during the last decade or so.

I don't think Americans are color blind. But hardcore racism isn't spread around like it is today. States like Alabama and Mississippi are still incredibly racist and old fashioned in thinking, and that will probably never change.

[Atomic Rooster]

You mean the War of Northern Aggression against a sovereign nation, The Confederate States of America.

To bad the war criminal (crimes against humanity) Lincoln wasn't killed sooner. He was responsible for more American deaths than any other wars combined.

Now Lincoln has been spun into a hero. I guess only in a country that has a holiday for a man responsible for probably the biggest genocide in history, Cristoforo Colombo (Cristóbal Colón).

[JoshuaZ]

Everyone is racist in some way or another. Its the way people are. Dwelling on it doesn't help any more than ignoring it.

People just need to be people and learn to hate each other for the reasons that really matter. Like the factthat most people are jerks. Thats a good enough reason to hate someone else. Not because of their skin color, but because they're jerks.

Now that is real progress.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I don't think Americans are color blind. But hardcore racism isn't spread around like it is today. States like Alabama and Mississippi are still incredibly racist and old fashioned in thinking, and that will probably never change.

States like Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming all have some pretty incredibly racist people in them. Unfortunately that will never change.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

You mean the War of Northern Aggression against a sovereign nation, The Confederate States of America.

To bad the war criminal (crimes against humanity) Lincoln wasn't killed sooner. He was responsible for more American deaths than any other wars combined.

Now Lincoln has been spun into a hero. I guess only in a country that has a holiday for a man responsible for probably the biggest genocide in history, Cristoforo Colombo (Cristóbal Colón).

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

You mean the War of Northern Aggression against a sovereign nation, The Confederate States of America.

To bad the war criminal (crimes against humanity) Lincoln wasn't killed sooner. He was responsible for more American deaths than any other wars combined.

Now Lincoln has been spun into a hero. I guess only in a country that has a holiday for a man responsible for probably the biggest genocide in history, Cristoforo Colombo (Cristóbal Colón).

How the heck is Christopher Columbus responsible for the biggest genocide in history? I'm pretty sure he never was around the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. Let's go with the Webster definition: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation. I'm pretty sure Christopher didn't deliberately destroy anyone. He didn't do much in the Caribbean besides claim it for Spain.

[sek929]

He spread smallpox amongst the natives.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Nothing important posted here by Railrodent

<rude pejorative excised>.

[analogika]

Wheeeeeeeee!!!!

[Railroader]

I do know a few people who participate in Civil War battle reenactments. The people are a bit "off". Hey, but everyone has to have a hobby.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Wheeeeeeeee!!!!

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I do know a few people who participate in Civil War battle reenactments. The people are a bit "off". Hey, but everyone has to have a hobby.

That's a job I wouldn't really like to have. Of course if it was for like a movie or something it'd be sort of cool. But how would you like to act like dead people day after day?

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I do know a few people who participate in Civil War battle reenactments. The people are a bit "off". Hey, but everyone has to have a hobby.

Why are you posting this now? So you can submit to the mods that you didn't try to derail this thread.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Why are you posting this now? So you can submit to the mods that you didn't try to derail this thread.

Maybe because it was a good thread and he wanted to keep it going? Now it's being further derailed because of comments like this. I know it's a stunning revelation to us all that not everyone here has the exact same viewpoint or thought process as everyone else, but we should try and move along.

[iranfromthezoo]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That's a job I wouldn't really like to have. Of course if it was for like a movie or something it'd be sort of cool. But how would you like to act like dead people day after day?

They are volunteers. I actually like to go to the reenactments and watch them. I genuinely find them interesting. Also Mitch I don't appreciate the Mississippi is full of racist post...

To everyone else, please don't think I was glorifying people dying nor the inhumanity in slavery. I honestly like know about my history. I guess being from Mississippi where there is so much history from the war and so many people's ancestors fought in the war it's kind of second nature to take interest in it.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Maybe because it was a good thread and he wanted to keep it going?

EXACTLY!!!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

FWIW, I did not think your post was a Good Idea™.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

They are volunteers. I actually like to go to the reenactments and watch them. I genuinely find them interesting. Also Mitch I don't appreciate the Mississippi is full of racist post...

To everyone else, please don't think I was glorifying people dying nor the inhumanity in slavery. I honestly like know about my history. I guess being from Mississippi where there is so much history from the war and so many people's ancestors fought in the war it's kind of second nature to take interest in it.

Oh, I think some reenactments are very interesting and informative. A lot of them seem to be just tourist traps too. I don't think anyone thought you were trying to glorify slavery or anything. While the Civil War was very misled, it was also a great time of sacrifice and people standing up for their beliefs (albeit not the best ones) that we don't often see today.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I do know a few people who participate in Civil War battle reenactments. The people are a bit "off". Hey, but everyone has to have a hobby.

I don't understand people who want to reenact the Civil War. When I'm ashamed of something, I typically don't want to celebrate it year after year.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Maybe because it was a good thread and he wanted to keep it going? Now it's being further derailed because of comments like this. I know it's a stunning revelation to us all that not everyone here has the exact same viewpoint or thought process as everyone else, but we should try and move along.

Ok, I see muck it up and then try and get sympathy.

EXACTLY!!11!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

I don't understand people who want to reenact the Civil War. When I'm ashamed of something, I typically don't want to celebrate it year after year.

Good point. Though, to entirely forget it all is a very bad idea. Scars have a way of reminding us and keeping us humble.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

I don't understand people who want to reenact the Civil War. When I'm ashamed of something, I typically don't want to celebrate it year after year.

Yeah it was a fratricide war, but at the end the US was better for it I think. Every country seems to have a rough patch in its history. Seems like an unavoidable part of state evolution.
I remember visiting the western part of Virginia, near Strasburg I think, and stumbling on a reenactement : the number of people and their involvement were fascinating to watch.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by villalobos 

Every country seems to have a rough patch in its history. Seems like an unavoidable part of state evolution.

Yep. Growing pains. Like when your first teeth start sticking through your gums and they make you scream to mom at the top of your voice.

Also the reason why western intervention in third-world countries is counter-productive. Countries *need* to go through that pain themselves before they can become healthy democracies.

[Kerrigan]

Actually, I tend to think that the whole non-western world is bloody awful, regardless of the what stage they have reached in the pre-modern/modern dialectic.

As far as the Civil War goes, I tend to favor the south. What good have industrialism and material prosperity done for the north? America has developed into a fragmented, de-territorialized, globalized nation whose citizens increasingly have no sense of regional identity. Call me old fashioned, but I'll take a neoplatonic hierarchical society any day of the week.

[MacosNerd]

I got into the civil war stuff a few years ago when I visited Gettysburg.

I agree with Atomic rooster that it was definitely was the most bloody war, that took more American lives then any other war. But that's where the similarities end, I keep touch with reality. Lincoln did what he had to, to protect the union and eliminate slavery. I shouldn't be surprised that there are people who believe that Lincoln is the villain, but its just plain sad, it was just plain wrong to have one class of people "own" another class.

Of course you have nut jobs walking around bemoaning the fact that germany lost the war and what if they had one. So it takes all types.

[dav]

there's a lot of civil war history in northern va. the battle of bull run is close to home, and the stone bridge is a current favorite hiking place for me and the kids.


destruction during civil war:


reconstructed, today:

[design219]

My great, great grandfather fought for the the Union. I recently inherited a pistol that he used in the war. Sad to say, I don't have much in the way of details about his involvement. He went west after the war to get rich mining gold and failed miserably.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

My dad's a big Civil War fan. (I tell him to have some national pride, but our attempt at national rebellion involved a bunch of guys getting hammed at a bar, holding up the Postmaster to get his wife to make them sandwiches, and then getting ambushed by the militia in some lady's garden and high-tailing it home. Not the stuff of legends, I admit.)

Anyways, he's always going on about Stonewall Jackson. Robert E. Lee could've won the war had he listened to him, yadda yadda. Good times.

greg

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

(Cristóbal Colón).

A true hero.

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

How the heck is Christopher Columbus responsible for the biggest genocide in history? I'm pretty sure he never was around the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. Let's go with the Webster definition: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation. I'm pretty sure Christopher didn't deliberately destroy anyone. He didn't do much in the Caribbean besides claim it for Spain.

Don't blame the man. It wasn't his fault that smallpox, whooping cough, the flu, or the countless other Old World Diseases caused havoc in the 'New World.' No one at the time, on either side of the Atlantic, could have known that the native peoples of the Americas would have such difficulties with disease. Heck, had it happened even three hundred years later it would have had the same results. No one knew about disease, or that the basic diseases domesticated animals held (and that Europeans were immune to after a thousand years of exposure) would kill off nearly 100 million native peoples in the Americas.

Had the it happened the other way around, where the Native Americans 'discovered' Europe, the exact same thing would have happened. Europe, Africa, and Asia were damned lucky that the only nasty bug that the Americas had was syphilis. It was highly possible that a nasty bug from the Americas could have killed off half the world's population. Very darn possible.

You can't even blame people for a lot of the diseases. Many of them came directly from domesticated animals that were brought over by the Europeans. One of the main problems was that even when a group of native people was immune to one disease they would eventually get hit by a different one they weren't immune to.

Something to keep in mind if we travel the stars. We prove as much a risk to other life forms as they do to us.

[macforray]

My Great Grandfather and a couple of his cousins fought for the 114th New York Regiment. They fought all the way to New Orleans. If getting shot by a .69" mini ball didn't kill you, the dysentery or malaria did. Luckily they all survived.

I enjoy history for what it is, a closed chapter in the annals of mankind. We cannot change it, but we can study and try to understand it. Hopefully we are able to not make the same mistakes that have already been made.

I was reading today that a local University with a large collection of Lincoln's letters donated by a descendant of his Secretary of State, Seward, has been scanning them and will start posting them on the internet on Monday for President's Day. There is one letter where Lincoln suggested buying all of the slaves for $400 each and freeing them. His logic was that it would be cheaper that the $2,000,000 per DAY the war was costing the Union. I had never heard that until today.

[zipperzap]

Yes - there were seven of our family members who fought for the Union - that we know of - in the War of The Great Rebellion. Four from my maternal side - Pennsylvania regiments. - and three from my paternal side - New York State, regiments.

There are a number of stories that have been handed down but my favorite is from my great great grandfather Captain. Rosewell Reynolds, who fought in the NY infantry.

He fought in quite a few battles without much consequence - he said, he was always "protected from above" until The Battle of the Wilderness, fought from May 5 to May 6, 1864, in VA.

In that battle he was so severely wounded he was left for dead. At some point, somehow, he remembered a Confederate soldier who saw that he was still ("a little alive"), and pulled him to safety from the enveloping flames of the forest fires.

He laid three days and nights in the rain after the armies had moved on and was found by a detail of grave diggers and taken to a nearby farm barn to die.

So Union troops stopped in to bury his body a few days later and found him still very much alive. They threw him into a wagon attached to the Surgeons Corps. and while he slowly recovered he did what he could until he was strong enough to leave.

One morning a few months later he did decide to leave, but instead of finding and rejoining his outfit he ordered a Captain's uniform and told all there he was going home - and he would walk home if that was the only way he could get there. He, of course, was warned against it - explicitly told not to attempt it as he would certainly be caught by Union roadblocks who would stop, arrest, and shoot him for a deserter.

He walked all the way home Albany, NY. He was stopped many times and asked for his papers of transit and each time he stated he had none - that the war for him was over and he was going home. Many times he was threatened with arrest, or being shot on the spot, and each time he was allowed to go, after he explained what he was doing, adding, if they felt that they had to shoot him ... so be it!

Once back at his brother's house - again near to death - he wrote to Abe Lincoln, telling him of his location and desire to be left alone. After a two year convalescence at his brother's house - a doctor, by the way - he traveled to, and accepted, a position as the High School principal in Bridgeton, New Jersey, where he was their principal for 40 years.

Great family story!

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I don't think Americans are color blind. But hardcore racism isn't spread around like it is today. States like Alabama and Mississippi are still incredibly racist and old fashioned in thinking, and that will probably never change.

Racism isn't just white on black, dude.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That's a job I wouldn't really like to have. Of course if it was for like a movie or something it'd be sort of cool. But how would you like to act like dead people day after day?

Sort of like going to a worthless and boring job 5 days a week to sit in a cubicle and do Powerpoint presentations?

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ 

100 million native peoples in the Americas.

100 million?????

[ctt1wbw]

Yeah, I think they all live down the street from me.

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

100 million?????

I've read estimates of over 100 million native americans. The problem was that most of them died out long before Europeans ever came through their areas.

[design219]

1491 : New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus

A really good book about what the new world war like before it was "discovered." Anyone who has the slightest interest in the subject should read this book.

The population estimates and what happened to most of the people are real eye openers.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ 

I've read estimates of over 100 million native americans. The problem was that most of them died out long before Europeans ever came through their areas.

That's what I was thinking because there really aren't enough settlements or large enough settlements at the time Europeans arrived to support 100 million natives. The archaeological record indicates a very diminished population due to war and famine prior to the arrival of Columbus.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ 

Don't blame the man. It wasn't his fault that smallpox, whooping cough, the flu, or the countless other Old World Diseases caused havoc in the 'New World.'

Well, it wasn't just bringing smallpox over. During the time Columbus was governor at Hispaniola, he committed quite a few brutalities against the native peoples living there. This didn't go over well with the priests who had come along with the hope of converting the natives to Christianity rather than killing them, raping them, forcing them to pan for gold and chopping their hands off if they didn't find enough, etc. Apparently, at one point, the Spanish sent a commissioner to go check up on him, who became so disgusted at what he saw that Columbus actually ended up getting arrested and brought back to Spain in chains.

Quite the "hero" indeed. He's not exactly a figure I feel should deserve his own holiday.

Not to defend the rest of Atomic Rooster's asinine post, though - Lincoln is a man who actually was a hero, one of the greatest our country has had.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

That's what I was thinking because there really aren't enough settlements or large enough settlements at the time Europeans arrived to support 100 million natives. The archaeological record indicates a very diminished population due to war and famine prior to the arrival of Columbus.

Nonsense. The archaeological record indicates no such thing.

First of all, he's talking about North and South America. Current estimates put the total Americas population estimate at around 112 million. When he said "Europeans ever came through their areas" he simply meant that it took quite some time before any Europeans made it anywhere into the interiors. The diseases Europeans brought with them had no such barriers.

When the Europeans finally did start traveling into the New World interior, many of the settlements they discovered had been already devastated.

greg

[Full-Auto]

Originally Posted by villalobos 

Yeah it was a fratricide war, but at the end the US was better for it I think. Every country seems to have a rough patch in its history. Seems like an unavoidable part of state evolution.
I remember visiting the western part of Virginia, near Strasburg I think, and stumbling on a reenactement : the number of people and their involvement were fascinating to watch.

Yeah, it was great for America. I mean, the federal government completely usurped states rights. We have an all powerful federal government now vs. 50 autonomous states (the way the Founding Fathers wanted things) that can do things like tax us into oblivion, get us into wars we have no business being in, etc.

I would much rather have things the way they were intended with each state able to govern itself and the federal government relegated to the tasks of providing a common defense, negotiating treaties with other countries and mediating disputes between the states. The people and the states should control the government, not the other way around.

But then they don't teach history in school anymore, at least not accurate history. But its common knowledge the victors get to write the history books, so what do ya do? Today we learn that the Civil War was fought over slavery (it wasn't). We're taught that Lincoln was the great emancipator (he wasn't). Here are some quotes from Lincoln that show his true feelings on the issue of race and slavery... funny how you don't learn about these in high school history class.

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races: that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -- Reply by Abraham Lincoln to Stephen A. Douglas in the first joint debate, Ottowa, IL; 21 Aug 1858

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery." -- First Inaugural Address

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it." -- To Horace Greeley

As a matter of fact, his solution to slavery was to ship the blacks back to Africa. Why? It wasn't about human rights, it was about taking the free labor for agriculture away from the South.

"Such separation ... must be effected by colonization ... to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be." -- From a speech delivered in Springfield, IL; 26 June, 1857

The war was fought over economics, not slavery. But the spin doctors of the 1860's realized they needed to find something to rally people and to mask the true intention of the war. They chose slavery, a dying practice in the South. Ironically slavery continued in the North throughout the war - they just didn't call them slaves - they called them "servants".

After the war the North did this little thing called "reconstruction". Read about it.

Lincoln killed thousands upon thousands of Americans, destroyed homes, families, and ripped a nation apart so he could usurp states rights and bring about an all powerful federal government.

I wish more American's would stop allowing themselves to be spoon fed the revisionist history taught in our public schools and would venture out on their own intellectually and actually learn something about history. If we don't learn history we will be doomed to repeat it.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Full-Auto 

tax us into oblivion

Dude, that's some heavy gun fun in your sig. Did you join us just to discuss this topic?

[JohnM15141]

Luckily, the good guys won!

Woot, General Sherman! Kick Arse!

[vmarks]

My family has members in its past who fought in the Revolution and in the War of Northern Aggression.

Remember, Thomas Jefferson was of the opinion that the states came together of their own volition to found the union, any state could also leave it voluntarily. States seceded, as was their right. The President of the remaining states did not fight a war to preserve the states (he could not preserve what was already split apart).

The USA is a country that has seen two secessions, one successful and the other a failed attempt. The first was the secession from England. The second was the Civil War.

[Full-Auto]

Originally Posted by design219 

Dude, that's some heavy gun fun in your sig. Did you join us just to discuss this topic?

No, I joined several weeks ago when I got my new iMac.