[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

If it started ethnic cleansing, it wouldn't survive very long at all.

Who would stop it ? Other arab countries don't care about the palestinians, they're expendable, they're only a pawn to use against Israel.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by PacHead

It wouldn't make a difference, Israel already beat the other side numerous times, when the other side had more tanks, more planes, better equipment and more soldiers.

That's true as well. Israel pretty much has a Ph.D in kicking asses.

[vmarks]

Chuckit, prepare to be surprised.

Hamas and Fatah fire missiles into pre67-line Israel almost DAILY.

Fatah has claimed that they have chemical and biological missiles, and that they have fired one at Israel already.

The children are raised to be suicide bombers or place themselves in harm's way.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060707/...aza_funeral_dc

The Iranian president has declared that he is willing to take action to back up his statements about wiping Israel off the map and that other Western countries will feel the effects.

Israel is acting with self-restraint. One wonders why the Swiss aren't asking the Palestinians to uphold International Humanitarian law. Oh wait: because they're friendly with Hamas. In April 2004, The Swiss government announced that several Islamic radical groups are operating in Switzerland, including Hamas.

The Federal Refugee Office on Tuesday confirmed a report in “Le Temps” newspaper that these groups include the Tunisian Islamic Front; Hamas, the Palestinian militant Islamic group; and Algeria’s Islamic Salvation Front.

Spokesman Dominique Boillat told swissinfo his department was working closely with the Federal Police Office to monitor the situation.

“We are responsible for asylum seekers and if we suspect that people could be dangerous to the safety of this country then we have to signal this and they will then be placed under surveillance by the police,” he said.

“Sometimes these people have contacts with terrorist groups or they could be contacted here in Switzerland by terrorist groups and later used for arms trafficking.”

-- http://www.nzz.ch/2004/04/20/english...88717763B26289 is where the article used to live. it looks like it went offline.

[Chuckit]

Palestine is not quite the same place as Iran.

And yeah, I know many children are raised to place themselves in harm's way. That was my point — Palestine is any enemy that's trained to lose.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

Whether or not the government you serve is a terrorist organisation makes absolutely no difference at all to the question of whether you are a lawful combatant. It would be ridiculous if that were a consideration.
No, what you are talking about are called war crimes and people go to jail or get killed for committing them. Contrary to Israeli opinion, you cannot target civilians in a war and you cannot keep territory that you take. That's stuff from the Middle Ages which is unfortunately where barbarians like you appear to have remained.
All Israel has to do is stop oppressing Palestinians. Your argument is just so facile it's laughable. Both sides can justify the violence.

Tough s***. They pressed this, and someone's going to step up and finish it. I know people like you don't understand, and it's not very surprising.

It's also not surprising that an individual such as yourself would take the side of a known terrorist gov't.

And for your information, you're entirely sure that governments don't take land during war in the 20th century. Would you like to recant that statement? Or, are you just talking out of your ass because it's how you "feel"?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

These militants attacked a MILITARY TARGET. You know, the way Israel arbitrarily attacks military targets in the Occupied Territories and takes prisoners.

What makes you so confident you can win? Do you know how many more Palestinians than Israelis there are? Do you not think the world learnt its lesson in the holocaust and would intervene if Israel started committing genocide?

Israel would lose a war with the Palestinians - just as this incursion has had exactly the opposite effect they intended. Blowing up the electricity supply has hardened the local population, created more local terrorists, made it less likely that anyone will tell Israel where their soldier is, made it more likely he will be killed and drawn more international condemnation for Israeli collective punishment.

Israel has a bit of an ego problem. It's a tiny little country on the international scene. It's not the superpower some of you think it is. If it started ethnic cleansing, it wouldn't survive very long at all.

You're not this retarded. Really.

Israel would destroy them in < a week. Or, have you forgotten history?

Oh well, maybe I was wrong about my first assertion regarding you...

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

It's not ethnic cleansing, it's war. Palestine wants to be considered a country. They want to be responsible for international relations. Fine, they're at war now, a "legal" combatant (though we all know that their gov't is a terrorist organization). Welcome to war, whole cities get leveled, countries get rearranged or wiped off the map, it's ugly... however, given that Israel has no other option, Palestine will simply be removed.

When whole cities get levelled it's a war crime. Rearranging borders or wiping someone off the map in a war is also a war crime. Forcing a population to move from their homes based on their ethnicity is a war crime.

Congratulations, you just made a hat trick in war crimes. Yet you still wonder why people "hate Israel"......

Remember, all they had to do was stop attacking Arabs.

Fixed™. And yet still equally ignorant.

This isn't about who started it. It's about who will end it in a way that respects the innocents on both sides. You've just put yourself in the same group as the Palestinian terrorists and Israeli terrorists. I'll still try to work with those on both sides of the fence (or in this case "the wall) who will respect the innocent civilians.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Tough s***. They pressed this, and someone's going to step up and finish it. I know people like you don't understand, and it's not very surprising.

Yeah sure, they pressed this. There are just as many arguments for Israel having "pressed this". 50 years of occupation and Palestinians are no better off. How did Israel in its wisdom think people would react to 50 years of oppression? You're very thick-headed to think that you can keep doing what you have been doing for the last 50 years and it will miraculously start working better than it has been working. Besides, what sparked this particular bit of violence from Israel? They lost a SOLDIER in a MILITARY battle. But this is not a 5 year old's playground. It's irrelevant who started it and who has the best toys. This is about how you are going to live in peace with each other. I assume that is still the ideal for you.

If Israel started committing genocide, I'm pretty sure NATO would step in. Unlike you, the rest of the world learnt a lesson from the holocaust.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

And for your information, you're entirely sure that governments don't take land during war in the 20th century. Would you like to recant that statement? Or, are you just talking out of your ass because it's how you "feel"?

You're really making yourself look like an idiot now. Read up on a bit of international law before you make silly statements like this.

[Kevin]

Uh what Israel is doing now is barely anything. The fact you think the Palestinians have a chance against such a war shows just how deluded you are bub.

Seriously.

I am glad people who think like this are few and far between.

[von Wrangell]

Move to Palestine for a month. Then say "Israel is doing nothing".

Seriously kev. You are deluded if you think this is nothing. It's the official government position of Israel that no one should be able to sleep in Gaza until the soldier is released. They keep the people awake not only by shelling areas close to residential areas but also by sonic booming Gaza every 1-3 hours. This is a serious breach of the GC and human rights.

I know you want to do the right thing and I'm sure you can agree that punishing innocent people for the acts of others is neither fair nor just.

[Troll]

Of course the Palestinians will be annihilated by the Israeli Army. The thing is that if Israel decides to start doing some ethnic cleansing and committing genocide, it won't only be Palestinian rock throwers that Israel will be facing. If you think you wouldn't have stood around in 1939 and watched genocide be committed against the Jews, why do you think anyone else on the planet will stand around and watch it happen to the Palestinians.

You guys who think genocide is an option are delusional. Beating the Palestinians into submission is not going to work. It hasn't worked so far and it will never work. There is only one option and that is to learn to share and to live together.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

There is only one option and that is to learn to share and to live together.

Israel doesn't have to learn anything, least of all get along with people who swear to wipe them out. War is the option and lots of dead palestinian terrorists.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Israel doesn't have to learn anything, least of all get along with people who swear to wipe them out. War is the option and lots of dead palestinian terrorists.

<picturing PacHead getting comfy in front of the TV with a bowl of popcorn, jittering in anticipation of getting to see dead palestinians>

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Troll

You guys who think genocide is an option are delusional. Beating the Palestinians into submission is not going to work. It hasn't worked so far and it will never work. There is only one option and that is to learn to share and to live together.

They should try hugging therapy. In fact, vmarks should go into Gaza and hug a random Palestinian. That would go a long way to spread the love.


*laughing therapy might work too...

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Nicko

They should try hugging therapy. In fact, vmarks should go into Gaza and hug a random Palestinian. That would go a long way to spread the love.


*laughing therapy might work too...

Been there. Did that.

Spoken, had tea with folks in East Jerusalem, as well as further south.

We agreed that we want peace, security, sovereignty, a place to raise children without worry of being attacked.

Unfortunately, we weren't able to agree on sovereignty because they wanted the whole of Israel to go away, and felt that peace and security came after that. Until the first was acheived, children would not be safe.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Move to Palestine for a month. Then say "Israel is doing nothing".

I am not talking about this situation.

Seriously kev. You are deluded if you think this is nothing. It's the official government position of Israel that no one should be able to sleep in Gaza until the soldier is released.

WELL GOOD! They shouldn't have taken the soldier von. Don't you see that? Don't you see how THEIR action directly correlates to how they are treated?
Why don't they just release the guy if they care so much about their people?
Tell me that von.

They keep the people awake not only by shelling areas close to residential areas but also by sonic booming Gaza every 1-3 hours. This is a serious breach of the GC and human rights.

So is what HAMAS is doing. And don't for one second expect me to believe they have nothing in it. And their people elected this group.

I know you want to do the right thing and I'm sure you can agree that punishing innocent people for the acts of others is neither fair nor just.

These "innocent" people elected a terrorist organization Von.

I wouldn't call any of them that elected Hamas innocent.

Esp when Hamas made known it's intentions.

[von Wrangell]

The shut the fekk up the next time a person from the ME attacks the US.

You elected Bush etc etc etc.


it's the same idiotic argument as you use. Only from the other side.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The shut the fekk up the next time a person from the ME attacks the US.

You elected Bush etc etc etc.

Oh come on, we were getting attacked for things that happened BEFORE Bush was in office.

Anyone that supports Irsael will.

it's the same idiotic argument as you use. Only from the other side.

No, because our gov isn't a terrorist organization.

No matter HOW you try to SPIN it into being such.

Sorry von, this little rationalization of yours was a bit silly.

Lets take a poll and see how many American's support terrorism.

Now lets take that same pole in "Palestine"

(Poll was taken there, over 80% supported terrorists and terrorist actions)

These innocent people as you claim, don't seem to be too innocent to me.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oh come on, we were getting attacked for things that happened BEFORE Bush was in office.

Correct. You were getting attacked for US foreign policies shared by both parties.

Lets take a poll and see how many American's support terrorism.
Now lets take that same pole in "Palestine"

(Poll was taken there, over 80% supported terrorists and terrorist actions)

I'll bet if you polled Palestinians and asked "Do you support terrorism?" the majority might say "no", because they probably don't define Hamas as "terrorist".

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Correct. You were getting attacked for US foreign policies shared by both parties.

That is a smokescreen as well.

I'll bet if you polled Palestinians and asked "Do you support terrorism?" the majority might say "no", because they probably don't define Hamas as "terrorist".

They support said actions, wether they know what terrorism is or not.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

There are many anti-Semites in the world, he's just one of them.

Sure, bitch. If someone doesn't share you simplistic, narrowminded, childish view of "teh wurrld", let's get out some cup of "Boooo-look-they-is-the-anti-semites!!!!"
You sound more like PotHead every day.

PB.

Oh, and:

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin

They support said actions, wether they know what terrorism is.

Yes, what I'm saying though is that people aren't always aware that what their leaders are doing is bad, even if they are fully aware of what they're leaders are doing.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Yes, what I'm saying though is that people aren't always aware that what their leaders are doing is bad, even if they are fully aware of what they're leaders are doing.

Too complicated for him. You need to tell him exactly what you mean.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Yes, what I'm saying though is that people aren't always aware that what their leaders are doing is bad, even if they are fully aware of what they're leaders are doing.

Well of course not. To THEM they think they are RIGHT.

But tell me Wisk, what kind of thinking promotes blowing ones children up?

That sir is a poisonous mind.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Too complicated for him. You need to tell him exactly what you mean.

Typical old school von.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Been there. Did that.

Spoken, had tea with folks in East Jerusalem, as well as further south.

We agreed that we want peace, security, sovereignty, a place to raise children without worry of being attacked.

Unfortunately, we weren't able to agree on sovereignty because they wanted the whole of Israel to go away, and felt that peace and security came after that. Until the first was acheived, children would not be safe.

Well all I know is that every modern conflict/insurgency/civil war in modern times has been solved in one way only, by both parties agreeing and compromising with each other to end the violence.

To take a recent example, if South Sudan can sign a peace treaty with its northern counterpart after decades of war with the loss of over 2 million lives on both sides, anyone can make peace.

[vmarks]

Hamas and Hamas alone have the power to end this.

Hamas can stop firing rockets at Israel. 17 alone on Friday.

Hamas can release Gilad Shalit. They have announced that they have him and that he is "being treated in accordance with Islamic principles." Which means he could lose his head, if what they teach in Palestinian schools is the example.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well all I know is that every modern conflict/insurgency/civil war in modern times has been solved in one way only, by both parties agreeing and compromising with each other to end the violence.

To take a recent example, if South Sudan can sign a peace treaty with its northern counterpart after decades of war with the loss of over 2 million lives on both sides, anyone can make peace.

I think you're misreading history.

The agreement and compromise only come AFTER one party has been beaten to the point where they can stomach no more losses.

Doing the agreement and compromise before that point prolongs the violence. See the middle east situation where Israel agrees to give the Palestinians aid, tax money, weapons, land, and in return gets more violence and broken agreements.

[placebo1969]

Do we know for sure that Gilad Shalit is still alive? Have they released any recent videos of him?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Do we know for sure that Gilad Shalit is still alive? Have they released any recent videos of him?

none at all.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Hamas and Hamas alone have the power to end this.

Hamas can stop firing rockets at Israel. 17 alone on Friday.

Hamas can release Gilad Shalit. They have announced that they have him and that he is "being treated in accordance with Islamic principles." Which means he could lose his head, if what they teach in Palestinian schools is the example.

Where has Hamas said that they have him?

And what incredible BS or lie that he could be beheaded. Read up on how POW's should be treated according to Islam. Or not, you probably already know the truth but will continue to twist the truth just so you can get another stab at Islam. It's been your MO for as long as I've been here.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Do we know for sure that Gilad Shalit is still alive? Have they released any recent videos of him?

Nothing so far. And releasing videos of POW's is against the law so I hope they don't do that. I'm still hoping they allow the ICRC to visit him but it's too risky since they'd be monitored by Israel.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

Sure, bitch. If someone doesn't share you simplistic, narrowminded, childish view of "teh wurrld", let's get out some cup of "Boooo-look-they-is-the-anti-semites!!!!"
You sound more like PotHead every day.

PB.

Oh, and:

Namecalling, I love that. Thanks for playing, you lose this debate. Please try again when you can watch your mouth.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

Yeah sure, they pressed this. There are just as many arguments for Israel having "pressed this". 50 years of occupation and Palestinians are no better off. How did Israel in its wisdom think people would react to 50 years of oppression? You're very thick-headed to think that you can keep doing what you have been doing for the last 50 years and it will miraculously start working better than it has been working. Besides, what sparked this particular bit of violence from Israel? They lost a SOLDIER in a MILITARY battle. But this is not a 5 year old's playground. It's irrelevant who started it and who has the best toys. This is about how you are going to live in peace with each other. I assume that is still the ideal for you.

If Israel started committing genocide, I'm pretty sure NATO would step in. Unlike you, the rest of the world learnt a lesson from the holocaust.

Why is it that people like you start using words like "genocide" when you're losing a debate? Are you trying to touch the heartstrings of the people you're appealing to? Do you feel that it helps your position? Well, you'd be wrong on both counts.

Again, since you're obviously not able to catch on:

The Palestinians don't want to debtate, they don't want peace, they want to kill Jews. Period.
They elected a terrorist organization as thier leadership.
They don't engage in traditional warfare, they strap bombs on to their children and blow them up in the hopes of killing a few Jews.

The time for talk is in the past, Israel is tired of going to the peace table with people who have no concept of the term. They seem to only understand conflict, and it's time to show them what that really is.

You're really making yourself look like an idiot now. Read up on a bit of international law before you make silly statements like this.

Yeah, *yawn* great argument. So, you realize that you were wrong and are trying to get a reaction? Thought so.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Where has Hamas said that they have him?

And what incredible BS or lie that he could be beheaded. Read up on how POW's should be treated according to Islam. Or not, you probably already know the truth but will continue to twist the truth just so you can get another stab at Islam. It's been your MO for as long as I've been here.

No thanks, we know how these countries treat their POWs. They abandoned the teachings of Islam long ago. THEY are the infadels.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

No thanks, we know how these countries treat their POWs.

Which countries would those be? I didn't know a country was holding the Israeli captive.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

Which countries would those be? I didn't know a country was holding the Israeli captive.

Good, then Palestine isn't a country. That makes things much simpler.

We can now establish that they're simply a large group of terrorists, and deal with them accordingly.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Why is it that people like you start using words like "genocide" when you're losing a debate?

You're advocating total war against a civilian population. You're saying the problem thus far has been that Israel has tried to minimise the impact on civilians and that it's time the gloves were taken off. You explain to me how Israel would do what you're suggesting it does without committing genocide?

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Yeah, *yawn* great argument. So, you realize that you were wrong and are trying to get a reaction? Thought so.

You like to embarass yourself, apparently. Okay, here it is in black and white for you. Yes, I am ENTIRELY sure that governments cannot legally take land during war in the 20th century. Land acquisition through invasion is absolutely illegal under the rules of war. The fact that you think that violence is a legitimate way to increase your lebensraum, explains a lot.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Good, then Palestine isn't a country. That makes things much simpler.

We can now establish that they're simply a large group of terrorists, and deal with them accordingly.

What we've established is that your prejudice against other countries and the way they treat their POWs has absolutely no relevance to the present case.

Thanks, now let's move on to your new point - "they" are a large group of terrorists. "They" is not every person with a dark skin and Arab origins. "They" is not every person living in the Gaza Strip. At best, "they" is the people that are members of the group that captured this soldier. "They" would not automatically be terrorists since they may actually be the kind of combatants that are recognised and protected under the laws of war. Since you don't know who that group is and who it's members are, you cannot start killing anyone. Civilians in Gaza did not capture that soldier and they cannot be collectively punished. Even though they may have voted for someone involved in the capture or any other reason that you would like to invent. Punishing civilians for the acts of a terrorist group that lives amongst them or even the acts of their army makes no sense.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

No thanks, we know how these countries treat their POWs. They abandoned the teachings of Islam long ago. THEY are the infadels.

Mac, you know just as well as I what it means to be treated like a POW accoring to Islam. You are right,, many of these people have long forgotten about it. But that is not what vmarks is trying to imply here.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

What we've established is that your prejudice against other countries and the way they treat their POWs has absolutely no relevance to the present case.

Thanks, now let's move on to your new point - "they" are a large group of terrorists. "They" is not every person with a dark skin and Arab origins. "They" is not every person living in the Gaza Strip. At best, "they" is the people that are members of the group that captured this soldier. "They" would not automatically be terrorists since they may actually be the kind of combatants that are recognised and protected under the laws of war. Since you don't know who that group is and who it's members are, you cannot start killing anyone. Civilians in Gaza did not capture that soldier and they cannot be collectively punished. Even though they may have voted for someone involved in the capture or any other reason that you would like to invent. Punishing civilians for the acts of a terrorist group that lives amongst them or even the acts of their army makes no sense.

THEY, as in the Palestinians. THEY, as in the ones who elected a terrorist organization by a landslide. It's a rogue, terrorist state, and should/will be treated as such. The Palestinian civilians (if there really are any) who aren't responsible need to get out fast, because they're about find out what a real war is.

Honestly, I hope Israel firebombs every place they believe these "combatants" to be, just wipes those areas off the map.

[von Wrangell]

So you continue to call for ethnic cleansing. Great......

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And what incredible BS or lie that he could be beheaded. Read up on how POW's should be treated according to Islam.

Yes because we know Islamic terrorists don't behead people. Ever

You said these people aren't following TRUE Islam. Why would it follow these "rules" ?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

You're advocating total war against a civilian population. You're saying the problem thus far has been that Israel has tried to minimise the impact on civilians and that it's time the gloves were taken off. You explain to me how Israel would do what you're suggesting it does without committing genocide?
You like to embarass yourself, apparently. Okay, here it is in black and white for you. Yes, I am ENTIRELY sure that governments cannot legally take land during war in the 20th century. Land acquisition through invasion is absolutely illegal under the rules of war. The fact that you think that violence is a legitimate way to increase your lebensraum, explains a lot.

You're such a joke.

I've seen little evidence of a "civilian population" in Gaza, they're ALL militants and need to be addressed as such. They want their terrorist gov't to destroy Israel, that's why they elected them. Correct? Well, it's time to take the fight to them. The decades of senseless suicide bombings and terror attacks have totally eroded my compassion for the people of that area.

Let's go back to my comment, since you've tried to manipulate it beyond what I actually said.

And for your information, you're entirely sure that governments don't take land during war in the 20th century. Would you like to recant that statement? Or, are you just talking out of your ass because it's how you "feel"?

No gov't has taken land in the 20th century ? And don't give me that "Int'l law" bullsh!t, Int'l law is a joke.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So you continue to call for ethnic cleansing. Great......

ethnic cleansing is going after people because of their race or whatever. You know, what the ex-Jordinians are attempting to do to the Jews in Israel.

Not because they are terrorists and support terrorism.

Nice spin there. Too bad it got shot down.

Enough with the hyperbole.

And it's funny those that support these terroists that want Israel gone are never concerned with THEM complying with international law.

Such a thing only works when BOTH parties are complying. This is not the case.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So you continue to call for ethnic cleansing. Great......

I call for war upon the people who want to destroy Israel, the people who elected a terrorist leadership with just that purpose in mind.

You can call it what you want.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

No gov't has taken land in the 20th century ?

Care to show examples (post-WWII and except Israel) of that happening?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I call for war upon the people who want to destroy Israel, the people who elected a terrorist leadership with just that purpose in mind.

You can call it what you want.

Did the under 18 year olds in Palestine elect them? No.

But go on and fuel your hatred. Like I've said before, we'll all get what we deserve in the end.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Care to show examples (post-WWII and except Israel) of that happening?

So, now you're putting limitations, removing half the century from the equation? Nice.

What is it with you guys?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Did the under 18 year olds in Palestine elect them? No.

But go on and fuel your hatred. Like I've said before, we'll all get what we deserve in the end.

Children as shields won't work anymore.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Switzerland ?

Who cares what they think ? Can they do anything about it ?

Typical Yank, and you wonder why the world dont like America much.

Switzerland