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goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by vmarks

Actually, it was good enough for the Israelis.

Israeli only expanded when attacked.

Huh? That's not what I mean. Why wasn't living in a Palestinian state good enough for Isreali's? Why did the Jewish people living in Palestine turn to suicide bombing until they got their own Israeli state?

Your comments come of as racist because Israel has done the exact same thing, but you support their actions. The only thing that make the Palestinians different than the Israeli's is race. When Israel terrorized a Palestinian state trying to get them to give up their land, that was ok. But when Palestine does it, it's some horribly undeserved thing.

The first suicide bombers were Israeli. Stop acting like Palestine started this.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Israel is going to be in a bit of trouble once Lebanon calls in it's alliances.

History tells us otherwise. Why do you ignore history ?

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

History tells us otherwise. Why do you ignore history ?

You really think Iran isn't looking for an excuse to wipe Israel off the map? I'm sorry, but if it's Israel vs. Lebanon, Syria, and Iran I don't think it will turn out that well.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

When Israel terrorized a Palestinian state trying to get them to give up their land, that was ok.

Ignorant much ? There is no palestinian state and there's never been a palestinian state. It's also never been their land.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

You really think Iran isn't looking for an excuse to wipe Israel off the map? I'm sorry, but if it's Israel vs. Lebanon, Syria, and Iran I don't think it will turn out that well.

Israel has had worse odds than that in the past. Arab/islamic countries are simply sorelosers and they don't know when they've lost.

von Wrangell · Jul 13, 2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Huh? That's not what I mean. Why wasn't living in a Palestinian state good enough for Isreali's? Why did the Jewish people living in Palestine turn to suicide bombing until they got their own Israeli state?

Your comments come of as racist because Israel has done the exact same thing, but you support their actions. The only thing that make the Palestinians different than the Israeli's is race. When Israel terrorized a Palestinian state trying to get them to give up their land, that was ok. But when Palestine does it, it's some horribly undeserved thing.

The first suicide bombers were Israeli. Stop acting like Palestine started this.

Only one thing to point out. There is no Israeli race.

Otherwise

and be prepared for some Zionist halftruths and lies now. Enjoy.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Only one thing to point out. There is no Israeli race.

That's true, there is also no such thing as a Muslim race, something you're proof of.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

Ignorant much ? There is no palestinian state and there's never been a palestinian state. It's also never been their land.

Great. It wasn't Israeli land either. Even says so in the bible.

Do you support the US moving off of US soil and giving it back to the native Americans? Once you have a people living on a land for 2000 years it's absurd to say "it's not their land". Heck, I don't think you can force the Israeli's off their land after 50 years. That said, I just find it absurd that the Israeli's were the worlds biggest terrorists, teaching the Palestinians everything they know about terrorism.

Israel started all of this, and brought terrorism to the region starting in the 1910's. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see a few Arab nuts taken out as well, but I certainly don't believe Israel should be around after the dust settles either. The Israeli's are just going to get back what they gave years ago.

vmarks · Jul 13, 2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

As close to ethnic cleansing as possible.

Palestinians want a Jew-free Palestine? Really? Evidence for that please?

Show me where any Jews remain in Gaza?

Khaddoumi, who regards himself as Palestinian foreign minister, said he was confident that Israel would be eliminated. He said he always opposed Israel's existence and cited the Arab numerical superiority over the Jewish state.

"[There are] 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it," Khaddoumi said.

Adham Ahmad Hujyla Abu Jandal
Prepared before Suicide attack on December 7, 2004
Published on Hamas website in February 2006

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Mu'min Rajab Rajab Abu Hafs
Prepared before Suicide attack on December 7, 2004
Published on Hamas website in February 2006
video
"In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country... This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs..."

"I dedicate this wedding [i.e. death for Allah] to all of those who have chosen Allah as their goal, the Quran as their constitution and the Prophet [Muhammad] as their role model. Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine - all of Palestine - from the impurity of the Jews...

"My dear mother, you who have cared for me, today I sacrifice my life to be your intercessor [on Judgment Day]. O my love and soul, wipe your tears, don't be saddened. In the name of Allah, I've achieve all that I've aspired. Don't let me see you sad on my wedding day with the Maidens of Paradise. So be happy and not sad, because in the name of Allah, after death is merciful Allah's paradise."

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:18 PM

Oh my god. Look at those trigger happy Arabs.

"Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi called for a comprehensive cease-fire, saying the Lebanese government had nothing to do with the Hezbollah attacks."

The Lebanese are getting the crap bombed out of them, and they still are holding fire. Yeah. Big war mongers there. It's obvious they are very anti-Isreali. And obviously the Israeli's are just a bunch of really peaceful calm guys.

And look how blood thirsty Palestine is:

"Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he fears a "regional war is mounting" with Israel's military campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, where forces were deployed after last month's capture of an Israeli soldier.

"This is not our interest and will not bring peace and stability to the region," Abbas said, referring to "this [Israeli] aggression.""

Sky Captain · Jul 13, 2006, 12:18 PM

I thought the Israelis were Hebrew.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The Lebanese are getting the crap bombed out of them, and they still are holding fire. Yeah. Big war mongers there.

They should be getting the crap bombed out of them, that's what happens when you invade a neighboring country and kill/kidnap soldiers.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

And look how blood thirsty Palestine is:

They are, even after Gaza was ethnically cleansed of the joooos, the palestinians continued to shoot rockets and invade Israeli territory. That's because the main goal of the palestinians is to kill joooos.

Mark Larr · Jul 13, 2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

You really think Iran isn't looking for an excuse to wipe Israel off the map? I'm sorry, but if it's Israel vs. Lebanon, Syria, and Iran I don't think it will turn out that well.

The Israeli grandchildren will ask "what were these "Arabs" we keep hearing about in history class?"

Sky Captain · Jul 13, 2006, 12:23 PM

It takes time to mobilize troops and runways to operate aircraft.
It would be suicidal for Lebanese soilders right now.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

They should be getting the crap bombed out of them, that's what happens when you invade a neighboring country and kill/kidnap soldiers.

Hezbollah doesn't run Lebanon. At best, they have a few seats in government. It doesn't take a mental giant to figure out the Lebanon probably doesn't know where the kidnapped soldiers are.

For being stereotyped as a blood thirsty people, the Lebanese are showing a huge amount of restraint. They should be bombing the heck out of Israel right now, that's what happens when you get unjustly bombed.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

They are, even after Gaza was ethnically cleansed of the joooos, the palestinians continued to shoot rockets and invade Israeli territory. That's because the main goal of the palestinians is to kill joooos.

Ethnically cleansed? First, again, the Jews started ethnic cleansing over 90 years ago when they sent terrorists into Palestine with the goal of killing off all the Palestinians. It got so bad, the British had to start sending troops to deal with the Jewish terrorists, and they closed off Jewish immigration because the Jews wouldn't stop blowing things up. Secondly, Israel moved out of Gaza. That's not ethnic cleansing.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Hezbollah doesn't run Lebanon. At best, they have a few seats in government. It doesn't take a mental giant to figure out the Lebanon probably doesn't know where the kidnapped soldiers are.

Hezbollah is in charge of the southern regions, that's why the airport was taken out. Arab and islamic countries are in fact responsible for terrorists operating within their borders, they can't play the 'it wasn't me' game anymore.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Larr

The Israeli grandchildren will ask "what were these "Arabs" we keep hearing about in history class?"

Look, I don't think either side can cleanly win. I would like both of their armies to be destroyed actually. But Israel doesn't have the advantage here. They're outnumbered and outgunned in the case of a full on Middle East war.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

Hezbollah is in charge of the southern regions, that's why the airport was taken out. Arab and islamic countries are in fact responsible for terrorists operating within their borders, they can't play the 'it wasn't me' game anymore.

So did Israel work with Lebanon to track down the terrorists like any self respecting government would do?

For the last 90 years, violence has been a first resort for Israel.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Ethnically cleansed? First, again, the Jews started ethnic cleansing over 90 years ago when they sent terrorists into Palestine with the goal of killing off all the Palestinians. .

Why aren't they all dead yet ? The Jews aren't stupid, they have the resources.

Mark Larr · Jul 13, 2006, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Look, I don't think either side can cleanly win. I would like both of their armies to be destroyed actually. But Israel doesn't have the advantage here. They're outnumbered and outgunned in the case of a full on Middle East war.

I don't think so.

Ummm, the Israelis are fully nuclear with the most advanced systems on the planet.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

They're outnumbered and outgunned in the case of a full on Middle East war.

That's why I asked if you knew history. Israel has been outmanned and outgunned in the past.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Larr

I don't think so.

Ummm, the Israelis are fully nuclear with the most advanced systems on the planet.

Do you honestly think if Israel launches a nuke, no one is going to nuke them back? That's going to turn into a world war, not a middle eastern war. You have countries like Russia who have borderline support of Palestine who might just get the bright idea of nuking back to contain Israel. Then the US pulls out the nukes, etc, etc...

Don't forget that Pakistan is Muslim and has nukes.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

That's why I asked if you knew history. Israel has been outmanned and outgunned in the past.

They've always taken on the smaller countries. Syria, Lebanon, Egypt being the biggest. If Iran gets involved, it will be an entirely different ball game.

Sky Captain · Jul 13, 2006, 12:34 PM

It wouldn't be economically viable for any country to pull out a nuke.

Shaddim · Jul 13, 2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Oh my god. Look at those trigger happy Arabs.

"Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi called for a comprehensive cease-fire, saying the Lebanese government had nothing to do with the Hezbollah attacks."

The Lebanese are getting the crap bombed out of them, and they still are holding fire. Yeah. Big war mongers there. It's obvious they are very anti-Isreali. And obviously the Israeli's are just a bunch of really peaceful calm guys.

And look how blood thirsty Palestine is:

"Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he fears a "regional war is mounting" with Israel's military campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, where forces were deployed after last month's capture of an Israeli soldier.

"This is not our interest and will not bring peace and stability to the region," Abbas said, referring to "this [Israeli] aggression.""

This is common when the lesser power has finally pissed off the stronger power. They act "shocked" and "surprised", and then scream about peace. They probably should have thought about that long ago.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It wouldn't be economically viable for any country to pull out a nuke.

I agree, Israel included. I doubt if it came down to it, they'd pull out a nuke. At least let's hope so. World Wars have been started over smaller things in the Middle East with everyone calling in their alliance's.

Troll · Jul 13, 2006, 12:37 PM

This isn't a war. Lebanon isn't fighting back. It's doing what any sane government does. Attempting to exhaust peaceful means to solve the problem first. Israel is being treated like a child having a tantrum. Lebanon is standing and watch it throw its toys.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Troll

This isn't a war. Lebanon isn't fighting back. It's doing what any sane government does. Attempting to exhaust peaceful means to solve the problem first. Israel is being treated like a child having a tantrum. Lebanon is standing and watch it throw its toys.

Agreed. I just don't see Israel backing down. And the Arab countries will only let this go on for so long.

Troll · Jul 13, 2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Larr

I don't think so.

Ummm, the Israelis are fully nuclear with the most advanced systems on the planet.

You want to tell me they could use nuclear weapons against Southern Lebanon or in Gaza and not take themselves out in the process. You need to look up "nuclear fallout".

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Agreed. I just don't see Israel backing down. And the Arab countries will only let this go on for so long.

It's not Israel who needs to back down, it's Hezbollah, remember, they're the ones who started. And the arab countries can't do crap about it anyhow.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

It's not Israel who needs to back down, it's Hezbollah, remember, they're the ones who started. And the arab countries can't do crap about it anyhow.

...This is why I don't see Israel backing down.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

...This is why I don't see Israel backing down.

No kidding, and they shouldn't back down either.

Shaddim · Jul 13, 2006, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

...This is why I don't see Israel backing down.

They shouldn't. Israel knows that it's now time (past time, actually) to kick their asses. Enough is enough.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

They shouldn't. Israel knows that it's now time (past time, actually) to kick their asses. Enough is enough.

Right. Because Lebanon has been a big trouble maker this whole time.

Shaddim · Jul 13, 2006, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Right. Because Lebanon has been a big trouble maker this whole time.

yep, for decades now. Ever since they lost the Christian majority, actually.

Trygve · Jul 13, 2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

And the airport strike is a good move on Israel's part. Who wants to visit Lebanon anyhow ? Way too many terrorists there.

Are you insane? Have you ever been to Lebanon? If there is one country in the Mid East that is caught in the middle it is Lebanon. Both Israel and Syria are using Lebanon for their proxy war.

I can't honestly believe that you consider destroying civilian infrastructure a just response when the Lebanese gov't was not the ones taking action against Israel.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

Are you insane? Have you ever been to Lebanon? If there is one country in the Mid East that is caught in the middle it is Lebanon. Both Israel and Syria are using Lebanon for their proxy war.

I can't honestly believe that you consider destroying civilian infrastructure a just response when the Lebanese gov't was not the ones taking action against Israel.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

I can't honestly believe that you consider destroying civilian infrastructure a just response when the Lebanese gov't was not the ones taking action against Israel.

The Lebanese government is responsible for the attacks. Hezbollah is a part of the government.
A responsible government who cares about it's population doesn't wage war against neighboring nations, the consequences can be deadly.

Trygve · Jul 13, 2006, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

The Lebanese government is responsible for the attacks. Hezbollah is a part of the government. A responsible government who cares about it's population doesn't wage war against neighboring nations, the consequences can be deadly.

Hezbollah has some members in Lebanon's Parliament who were democratically elected. If people belonging to the same political party carry out action against Israel that does not make it a state sanctioned action. By your logic if an American who happened to belong to the Republican party kidnapped a foreigner, the foreign person's country would be justified in bombing Washington? I think not.

Lebanon is caught in the middle here and Israel is *way* out of line in its response. That Lebanon has held its guns shows who the aggressor is here.

Shaddim · Jul 13, 2006, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

Lebanon is caught in the middle here and Israel is *way* out of line in its response. That Lebanon has held its guns shows who the aggressor is here.

Or, *they're severely outgunned and pleading for international sympathy.

It would be like the Democrats in the US attacking Canada by sending in Kennedys with bombs strapped to their bodies (disguised as gin bottles). I don't think that the rest of the world would believe that the US is "innocent" if one of our political parties condoned, supported, or planned such a thing.

*more likely scenario.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 13, 2006, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

Are you insane? Have you ever been to Lebanon? If there is one country in the Mid East that is caught in the middle it is Lebanon. Both Israel and Syria are using Lebanon for their proxy war.

I can't honestly believe that you consider destroying civilian infrastructure a just response when the Lebanese gov't was not the ones taking action against Israel.

Then the Lebanese government needs to assert its soveriegnty and force Hezbollah to disarm or be dis-armed. The Lebanese government has a non-state para-military force operating in their country, why isn't the Lebanese government working to eliminate Hezbollah from the country? If the Lebanese government doesn't want to be held responsible for the actions of a rogue para-military operating within their borders then they need to work to get rid of Hezbollah, simple as that. They need to show the world that the way of civil, secular government is possible within their country. More important than showing that civil, secular government can work is showing the world that they want civil, secular government to work.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

Hezbollah has some members in Lebanon's Parliament who were democratically elected.

Just because they were 'democratically' elected, doesn't change anything, it actually makes it worse. That means that enough Lebanese are terrorist supporters or they wouldn't have gotten elected to begin with. The Lebanese are responsible for what happens in their country, believe it or not.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

Hezbollah has some members in Lebanon's Parliament who were democratically elected. If people belonging to the same political party carry out action against Israel that does not make it a state sanctioned action. By your logic if an American who happened to belong to the Republican party kidnapped a foreigner, the foreign person's country would be justified in bombing Washington? I think not.

Lebanon is caught in the middle here and Israel is *way* out of line in its response. That Lebanon has held its guns shows who the aggressor is here.

Again

PacHead is having trouble making this distinction.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

Just because they were 'democratically' elected, doesn't change anything, it actually makes it worse. That means that enough Lebanese are terrorist supporters or they wouldn't have gotten elected to begin with. The Lebanese are responsible for what happens in their country, believe it or not.

So if the Green party blew up a nuclear reactor in Canada, Canada's response should be declaring war on the entire US?

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Again

PacHead is having trouble making this distinction.

There is no distinction.

goMac · Jul 13, 2006, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

There is no distinction.

No. There is. You're having trouble making it.

itai195 · Jul 13, 2006, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Trygve

Lebanon is caught in the middle here and Israel is *way* out of line in its response. That Lebanon has held its guns shows who the aggressor is here.

In Southern Lebanon, Hezbollah are the guns.

PacHead · Jul 13, 2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

So if the Green party blew up a nuclear reactor in Canada, Canada's response should be declaring war on the entire US?

If the Green party was a designated terrorist group and the US did nothing to get rid of them for decades and then the Green party went and blew up a nuclear reactor in Canada afterwards, and the US still sat around making lameass excuses (look, it wasn't me, yawn) , then the answer would be Hellz Yeah.