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Women of MacNN: let's try again
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hart
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Jan 20, 2007, 03:16 PM
 
OK, in honor of these memorable moments in MacNN history:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...nd-__________/

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...d-computers/2/

and in honor of the publishing of this book, She's Such a Geek: Women Write About Science, Technology, and Other Nerdy Stuff

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1580...07#reader-link

I thought I'd try for another head count of female readers again since we seem so clear on who's gay and who's Canadian around here. I go mostly icognito, never actually mentioning that I'm not a man so I bet there's others, or women who totally lurk so those who assume (see above links) that we're all crocheting doilies instead of installing hard drives don't go all cave man on us every time we open our digital mouths.

The editors of that book were on NPR the other day and their main advice was stand up and be counted so the girls-aren't-geeks stereotype can get a little knocking around. Here's a link to the interview:

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2007/01/18

So just this once come out of hiding and say say hi to the rest of us.
     
ObiWan Flanders
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Jan 21, 2007, 09:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by hart
I go mostly icognito, never actually mentioning that I'm not a man so I bet there's others, or women who totally lurk so those who assume (see above links) that we're all crocheting doilies instead of installing hard drives don't go all cave man on us every time we open our digital mouths.
Girls?? On the Internet?????





Seriously though, how come you aren't knitting me an iPod cozy right now

Edit:
Any of you tech savvy ladies care to tell me why that gif isn't working properly here..... over dinner?
( Last edited by ObiWan Flanders; Jan 21, 2007 at 09:32 AM. )
     
Ghoser777
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Jan 21, 2007, 09:36 AM
 
ObiWan... please don't scare them away.
     
ObiWan Flanders
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Jan 21, 2007, 09:56 AM
 
Its the internet and I'll be creepy if I want to.
     
Ghoser777
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Jan 21, 2007, 10:03 AM
 
:sigh:
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 10:48 AM
 
double sigh

it's hopeless

ps I'll get my husband to knit you an ipod cozy instead. He's much better at it.
     
turtle777
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Jan 21, 2007, 10:51 AM
 
Hey, we welcome women at MacNN.

We are equal opportunity offenders.

-t
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 10:55 AM
 
that's for sure. I'm much to delicate a flower for the banter in this joint. I'll let macgeek2005 take the heat if you don't mind.
     
Sub
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:01 AM
 
Eww, cooties.

( Last edited by Sub; Jan 25, 2007 at 06:30 PM. )
     
shifuimam
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:11 AM
 
I'm a "lady", although "female" would probably better describe me.

There were a few girls in the CIT department at my university - most were either foreign or really, really nerdy/hideous. I became the de facto tech support person on the girls' floor of my dorm my freshman and sophomore years.

In regards to the linked post about why there are so few women interested in computers:

Culture has made computers a nerdy thing. Most girls (in college, at least) would rather (a) sleep with every guy they come across who assures them they don't have VD, (b) drop $500 on a tiny Prada purse that I found for $20 in Chinatown, (c) watch MTV for hours on end, or (d) all of the above.

It sucks for people like me, because like that poster, I have no female friends and used to only have guy friends. Since I graduated from college and have a boyfriend of 1.5 years, those guy friends have disappeared. It's hard to have male friends (and you can't get along with females) when you have a boyfriend, because he tends to sometimes get a little jealous or suspcious.

And, in the Mac world, a lot of girls buy Macs because (a) they're pretty, (b) they cost more than a cheap Dell so they beg Daddy to buy one, (c) they see their movie heros using them and therefore want one, or (b) all of the above. So, even if you're a complete Mac nerd (which I am gradually morphing into), you can't find girls that are into that, because all they care about is the pretty, pretty dock and the pretty, pretty iLife apps.

It's a hard life we live.

[edit]
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
Of the ones that have been here not one of them falls into the normal pool of what anyone would consider attractive unless of course you gauge attractive from the perspective of a middle aged, divorced, overweight, unpopular, low wage earning geek.
At least I'm 22, never married, super skinny, and make more than most people do directly out of college...so I've got something there, right?
     
turtle777
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I'm a "lady", although "female" would probably better describe me.

At least I'm 22, never married, super skinny, and make more than most people do directly out of college...so I've got something there, right?
Stop teasing



j/k

-t
     
shifuimam
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Stop teasing

j/k

-t
Ah, see, I never said I was attractive...

I just don't fall under the "middle-aged, divorced, overweight, shitty job" category that allegedly covers most women around here.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:32 AM
 
shifuimam, well, if you're going to desparage other women right off the bat, you're either a) trying too hard to compensate/fit in with the boys, or have issues with other women. No wonder you don't have many female friends. Seriously, that post sounded like Ca$h/Rob/insertCurrentUserName$ there.

I'm a woman and I'm a Mac fan. I did not buy it for the pretty, pretty iLife apps.
     
Gossamer
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
And, in the Mac world, a lot of girls buy Macs because (a) they're pretty, (b) they cost more than a cheap Dell so they beg Daddy to buy one, (c) they see their movie heros using them and therefore want one, or (b) all of the above.
I can choose b) twice?
     
KeriVit
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:41 AM
 
Hi!
     
turtle777
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Ah, see, I never said I was attractive...
A'ight, 'mam !

But in all seriousness: as a turtle, I have an advantage when it comes to attractiveness

-t
     
shifuimam
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
shifuimam, well, if you're going to desparage other women right off the bat, you're either a) trying too hard to compensate/fit in with the boys, or have issues with other women. No wonder you don't have many female friends. Seriously, that post sounded like Ca$h/Rob/insertCurrentUserName$ there.

I'm a woman and I'm a Mac fan. I did not buy it for the pretty, pretty iLife apps.
Originally Posted by shifuimam
Most girls (in college, at least)...

And, in the Mac world, a lot of girls buy Macs because...

I just don't fall under the "middle-aged, divorced, overweight, shitty job" category that allegedly covers most women around here.
I never said that all women fall into this category. I do, however say that most women/girls I came across in college fell into one of those two categories. Being openly mocked by "the hot chicks" for being interested in computers was enough to solidify my opinion that most girls have that attitude about computers. Even girls in my computer-related courses, like my Photoshop and Illustrator classes, had that opinion about people who were "computer nerds".

The last part was just taken directly from the second-to-last-post in this thread.

P.S. It's not a good idea to make assumptions about a person's character based on what they read on a Mac forum on the intarnet.
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
you're doing a little cliche reinforcement there.

At 46 I've seen a lot of different stages of the male/female thing. Back in high school in the 70's (yee gads!) my second rate school had 7 or 8 students in advanced math of about 1500. 5 boys, 2 girls. The only students to go on to name brand schools were the other girl and me. But I always remember feeling like an imposter. Heck, I didn't own a soldering gun so what was I doing there?

My parents who weren't any good at tech fields desperately wanted me to be a "computer programmer" so I became a fashion designer. Of course. It took me until my late 30's to even get a computer. Then I was off like a shot. A mac-based photographer got me started and was my tech friend for years.

I took several high-intensity courses at NYU's continuing ed school in Web programming ending with advanced Flash and started out suprised to see any women. By the end of the Flash course most of the men had dropped out and it was just us women and a couple of guys. Times have changed.

I started this thread cause I think we're out there, we're just hiding to avoid the male bonding piling-on syndrome that so characterizes this place and the world in general. It's the same when I go kayaking. I get the feeling all the guys think I'm a weak little girl who can't know what I'm talking about and they always seem to feel the need to instruct me without any idea of what I know or not. So I go out alone rather than feel I have to prove myself every time. As with computers I taught myself with books and the internet (try figuring out an eskimo roll from written descriptions. there's a mental, dislexic task if there ever was one).

The editors of that book talked about the danger of falling into the trap of thinking about women the same way that the guys in that girls and computers thread do. It's an assumption that doesn't hold water on closer examination. They compared coming out as a girl geek to coming out as gay. Lots of girl geeks are closetted so you just don't see them. We're hiding our light under a bushel ands it's doing everyone a disservice.

Two weeks ago I decided to install my own car radio after encountering difficulty getting it installed by someone else. I had to brave the male car stuff bastion and get stuff from Crutchfield and the electrical aisle in Lowes and Radio shack and it was a bit like sneaking around in someone else's club even after all these years. But it also felt like one small step for womankind. Kind of made up for me always blathering when I go down to the shop to get my car fixed. Why the **** would I blather when I'm able to put in my own hard drives and do open water crossings solo in my kayak? A very good question. But it's important for people to see that women CAN put in their own car radios and that they might want to as well.

OK, enough lecturing. Gotta take the kiddies off to the science museum for Cyberchase day. I have a son and two daughters and I don't want it to be the same for them in 20 years.
     
shifuimam
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
A'ight, 'mam !

But in all seriousness: as a turtle, I have an advantage when it comes to attractiveness

-t
Yeah...you don't want to see what I look like. You'd run screaming in the other direction.
     
BlueSky
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post

I'm a woman and I'm a Mac fan. I did not buy it for the pretty, pretty iLife apps.
OK, then it was the cute li'l candy buttons, right? C'mon you can tell us.
     
turtle777
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Yeah...you don't want to see what I look like. You'd run screaming in the other direction.
You look like a naked mole rat : eek:



-t
     
shifuimam
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Jan 21, 2007, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by hart View Post
I took several high-intensity courses at NYU's continuing ed school in Web programming ending with advanced Flash and started out suprised to see any women. By the end of the Flash course most of the men had dropped out and it was just us women and a couple of guys. Times have changed.
...
They compared coming out as a girl geek to coming out as gay. Lots of girl geeks are closetted so you just don't see them. We're hiding our light under a bushel ands it's doing everyone a disservice.
There were plenty of women in the more pretty side of computers, like website design, Adobe apps, digital photography, etc. There weren't many women in the painfully boring ugly-side classes, like statistics, networking, and programming. I was the only girl enrolled in many of the classes I took for my degree.

I disagree that a lot of girl geeks are "closeted". The other girls I knew openly looked down on me for my choice of hobbies and interests, so unless they were doing that in order to get the hunky hunky boys from the second floor to take them out to the movies, I'd have to say I was pretty well aware of who was a geek and who wasn't.

It's in part due to our culture. I worked in a tech support environment at my university for two years, and our team was pretty big - about 70 people. The only other girls in that entire support team were from different countries. We had several Chinese, Korean, and Indian women. I was the only born-and-bred-in-America white girl there.

It comes with the terrirtory, and that's life. If I wasn't okay with that, I would have picked a different hobby and career by now.
     
flyordiedays
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:03 PM
 
Hello. I'm a chick, and I use a mac. I'm also a big geek, but I'm okay with that.
     
besson3c
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:04 PM
 
Hart:

Please stick around!

There is too much testosterone filled aggression around here, too much objectification of women (e.g. all the "I'd hit it" threads), and a little sexism in here that could definitely use some balancing out.

I'm male, but my wife is quite the feminist, so I respect everything you've said!
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
There were plenty of women in the more pretty side of computers, like website design, Adobe apps, digital photography, etc. There weren't many women in the painfully boring ugly-side classes, like statistics, networking, and programming. I was the only girl enrolled in many of the classes I took for my degree.

I disagree that a lot of girl geeks are "closeted". The other girls I knew openly looked down on me for my choice of hobbies and interests, so unless they were doing that in order to get the hunky hunky boys from the second floor to take them out to the movies, I'd have to say I was pretty well aware of who was a geek and who wasn't.

It's in part due to our culture. I worked in a tech support environment at my university for two years, and our team was pretty big - about 70 people. The only other girls in that entire support team were from different countries. We had several Chinese, Korean, and Indian women. I was the only born-and-bred-in-America white girl there.

It comes with the terrirtory, and that's life. If I wasn't okay with that, I would have picked a different hobby and career by now.
not to be too patronizing but college (and high school for that matter) isn't life. See, if they were closeted you wouldn't know they were there, that's the point. Boys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses. DUH!

I worked my way through college as a theatrical carpenter and tech assistant. In a women's college so I didn't feel abnormal. Then I got to the real world and I was it...no girls within visual range.
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by flyordiedays View Post
Hello. I'm a chick, and I use a mac. I'm also a big geek, but I'm okay with that.
Yee Haw!! someone new!! It's a miracle!!
     
turtle777
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by flyordiedays View Post
Hello. I'm a chick, and I use a mac. I'm also a big geek, but I'm okay with that.
Hello and welcome.

Do you like turtles ?

-t
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Hart:

Please stick around!

There is too much testosterone filled aggression around here, too much objectification of women (e.g. all the "I'd hit it" threads), and a little sexism in here that could definitely use some balancing out.

I'm male, but my wife is quite the feminist, so I respect everything you've said!
Hey I don't mind some straight forward lust. A well-photoshopped breast implant in the right thread is fine. It's the "girls are dumb or they're ugly lesbians" thing that sets my teeth on edge.

Of course I'm not foolish enough to post my own middle-aged, soon-to-be-divorced but not overweight picture here. That would be insane. Wanna see a picture of my boat? it's real cute.

Whoa Nelly, I had too much coffee this morning. Haven't posted this much EVER.
( Last edited by hart; Jan 21, 2007 at 12:15 PM. Reason: spelling)
     
KeriVit
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:14 PM
 
I'm a chick. And I like Macs. My first mac was a Performa. And I like football. And I'm an artist.
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by KeriVit View Post
I'm a chick. And I like Macs. My first mac was a Performa. And I like football. And I'm an artist.
I feel like we're at an AA meeting.

"We're here, we're female, get used to it!" .... or something like that. I actually didn't know you were not a man. Thanks for fessing up.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by hart View Post
Wanna see a picture of my boat? it's real cute.
I'd hit it.

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
Doofy
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:24 PM
 
I'm not a chick. And I like Macs and chicks.

What's with all the stereotypes? Can't a chick be a Mac-geek if she wants to be? I mean, it's not like she's a commie or Canadian or anything, is it?
     
paul w
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:28 PM
 
Owning a mac and posting in some internet forum are not exactly tied to one another. I know plenty of female Mac users. I would even go so far as to say 99% of the time the poster's sex is irrelevant. That extra 1% going to threads about babies, menstruation or cody dawg threads.
     
KeriVit
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by hart View Post
I feel like we're at an AA meeting.

"We're here, we're female, get used to it!" .... or something like that. I actually didn't know you were not a man. Thanks for fessing up.
Fessing up? I feel like I was being bad when you say it like that.
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by KeriVit View Post
Fessing up? I feel like I was being bad when you say it like that.
I know, sorry. I got that feeling too but couldn't find a better way to phrase it.

(abject sorriness)
     
hart  (op)
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
I'd hit it.

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
derail! Sorry, couldn't help myself. LOVE my new boat!!



     
Doofy
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:34 PM
 
Geek Girls Go Bad!

Sounds like a video or something.
     
BlueSky
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by hart View Post
Wanna see a picture of my boat? it's real cute.
I'd float it.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Jan 21, 2007, 12:43 PM
 
@shifuimam

I find it interesting that you characterize everything in terms of a pretty-vs-ugly dichotomy. Whether it is used in commenting on the people or the technology you use this basic paradigm of attractiveness as your frame-work for discussion. There are dozens of other logical pairings out there that could apply to this topic, but you chose to use the pretty-vs-ugly pairing. Why is that? Why this binary pair?
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
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Sub
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Jan 21, 2007, 01:40 PM
 
There was something in the last couple of MacAddict magazines called geeks gone wild, but thats also guys, but they aren't wearing any shirts...
     
Kevin
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:10 PM
 
geek chicks are just introverted because they have horizontal vaginas.

It's true. Cubeiod told me.
     
angelmb
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Stop teasing



j/k

-t
     
Gossamer
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm male, but my wife is quite the feminist, so I respect everything you've said!
It's clear who wears the pants in your relationship
     
Kevin
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
It's clear who wears the pants in your relationship
     
All_Insane
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:36 PM
 
I'm a girl. Born and raised on Macs. Definitely a geek. *egads!*

And I'm Canadian.
     
turtle777
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by All_Insane View Post
I'm a girl. Bornand raised on Macs.


Originally Posted by All_Insane View Post
Definitely a geek. *egads!*
And I'm Canadian.
Monique ?

-t
     
©öñFü$íóÑ
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
excellent answer!

Don't bully me, I got an Uzi... HOO-HAH!
     
Chuckit
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Culture has made computers a nerdy thing. Most girls (in college, at least) would rather (a) sleep with every guy they come across who assures them they don't have VD, (b) drop $500 on a tiny Prada purse that I found for $20 in Chinatown, (c) watch MTV for hours on end, or (d) all of the above.

It sucks for people like me, because like that poster, I have no female friends and used to only have guy friends. Since I graduated from college and have a boyfriend of 1.5 years, those guy friends have disappeared. It's hard to have male friends (and you can't get along with females) when you have a boyfriend, because he tends to sometimes get a little jealous or suspcious.
I don't really get it. It's not like being a computer nerd prevents you from speaking to other people. I had plenty of female friends both in and after college — only one was also a computer geek, but that didn't matter. People don't need to share every single interest I have. There's usually enough we can agree on — hating Julia Roberts, the war in Iraq was a colossal ****-up, Hiro Nakamura on Heroes is the greatest character since sliced bread, all the usual stuff.
Chuck
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ghporter
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Jan 21, 2007, 02:58 PM
 
Personal input from a male computer scientist: During my undergrad work in the early '90s, I don't think there were more than two or three women in any of my technical classes-though it was not always the same two or three women! However, the people who were at the top of the class in things like linear algebra and similar subjects were indeed female. Further, none of my female classmates were "unattractive." That's a far cry from my male classmates-some of the guys were real LOSERS!

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Jan 21, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ©öñFü$íóÑ View Post
excellent answer!
Glad you liked it
     
 
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