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Buckaroo · Mar 25, 2007, 01:09 PM

I know this is off topic, but I can't get the macnn search engine to work worth a crap.

What happened to Dr. Who? Was it cancelled?

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 25, 2007, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

I know this is off topic, but I can't get the macnn search engine to work worth a crap.

What happened to Dr. Who? Was it cancelled?

No it is still on. Going into the 4th season.

And yes the search here sucks.

reader50 · Mar 25, 2007, 01:33 PM

The Dr. Who thread. Looks like the Search index starts with 4-letter words.

Back on-topic.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

...
Season 2 was almost perfect with the exception of Blackmarket and a couple other "meh" ones.
...

I agree, but find it interesting that we don't agree on which other eps were the low ones.

Season 3 was great through Rapture, but then had the slower self-contained eps since. Much of the slowness seems attributable to the Saggitaron storyline that got nuked late. If they'd written farther ahead and realized in the trial that it wouldn't work ... before they started filming the slower eps, then they could have written completely different eps for that part of the season.

I'm thinking maybe the studio agrees. That would explain why they pushed Season 4 back so far, to give still more production time. Room to recover better from errors, before things go in front of the camera.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

...
I remember before Voyager went off the air the writers were considering having them get home at the beginning of the season and spend the rest of the shows life dealing with the consequences of what happened while they were lost and the **** they have to deal with now that they are back. If you saw the final episode and season the way it actually went you wish they would have had the balls to go trough with their original idea.

That would have been interesting. The legal fallout for the Maquis crew members, the nonstandard mods to Voyager, and the many decisions made by desperate people. Not sure if they could spend a whole season on it though. I had hoped for a couple eps after the finale to explore things like that.

finboy · Mar 25, 2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I agree. Whether or not Moore is writing them, the bottom line is that it is losing coherence.

A lot of the intended "dramatic tension" introduced in some episodes is either just irritating or else just 'meh' and superfluous.

It lost it's edge a while ago, maybe with the Cylon virus. I'm just extremely disappointed with the continual character flip-flops and lack of direction in general. I can't really see how they're going to pull out next season -- they can't colonize another planet this time, can they?

The reliance on Sackoff and Bamber's acting to carry them for most of this season really didn't help anything. As for the "Starbuck comes back" spoiler, remember that you heard it here first (like, a year ago).

Don Pickett · Mar 25, 2007, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by finboy

It lost it's edge a while ago, maybe with the Cylon virus. I'm just extremely disappointed with the continual character flip-flops and lack of direction in general. I can't really see how they're going to pull out next season -- they can't colonize another planet this time, can they?

The reliance on Sackoff and Bamber's acting to carry them for most of this season really didn't help anything. As for the "Starbuck comes back" spoiler, remember that you heard it here first (like, a year ago).

Starbuck is coming back for one very simple reason. If Sackoff had been sacked from the show, we would've read about it in the trades.

Thorzdad · Mar 25, 2007, 06:16 PM

If they actually DO bring Starbuck back (as a flesh-and-blood regualr character, and not some "reborn" higher-entity or something lame like that (think: Daniel Jackson) I hope to hell they start writing the character better. I quickly became tired of the whole "Starbuck is psycho" thing. I sort of felt the writers wrote that character into a corner with it and HAD to kill her off (or open the door for a rebirth) in order to correct a bad direction.

scottiB · Mar 25, 2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by reader50

Season 3 was great through Rapture, but then had the slower self-contained eps since. Much of the slowness seems attributable to the Saggitaron storyline that got nuked late. If they'd written farther ahead and realized in the trial that it wouldn't work ... before they started filming the slower eps, then they could have written completely different eps for that part of the season.

100% agreement.

jokell82 · Mar 25, 2007, 11:00 PM

Why would they be hearing a Bob Dylan song?

That was just eating at me the entire time. WTF?

Sourbook · Mar 25, 2007, 11:04 PM

Damned great ending.

SpaceMonkey · Mar 25, 2007, 11:06 PM

I did not understand that at all. Why are they all so certain that they are Cylons now? Because they heard the same music?

Lateralus · Mar 25, 2007, 11:07 PM

That episode confused the **** outta me.

greenamp · Mar 25, 2007, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Sourbook

Damned great ending.

Agreed. The ended was beautiful.

greenamp · Mar 25, 2007, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Why would they be hearing a Bob Dylan song?

That was just eating at me the entire time. WTF?

It's coming from Earth. They're pretty close.

xi_hyperon · Mar 25, 2007, 11:11 PM

^ But how does the music tell them they're cylons? I just didn't get that.

aristotles · Mar 25, 2007, 11:11 PM

Awesome. That spoiler site linked to earlier was right on the money. Some of you thought they got only part of it right last week but that was only because it was a two part story which we saw the conclusion of today.

aristotles · Mar 25, 2007, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by xi_hyperon

^ But how does the music tell them they're cylons? I just didn't get that.

Uh, because nobody else is hearing it? Unless they all have fillings that is acting like a radio, I have to say that a cylon might be more likely to pick up frequencies like Earth radio than a regular human being.

There is also the fact that all of them were drawn to one place for some reason.

SpaceMonkey · Mar 25, 2007, 11:17 PM

I'm sure if they all sat around and analyzed it that would be one possible conclusion they would come up with. My problem is more that they just showed up there and then all of a sudden they were like "oh, yup, we're Cylons, DUH" with 100% certainty. Especially since Tigh was ranting about it being Cylon sabotage in his previous scene.

aristotles · Mar 25, 2007, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Oh dear lord. I just watched the trailer for next week with anders flat out saying "It's true, we're Cylons" with flashes of Adama and some others.

Unless there is a damn good story behind that I think the show just jumped the shark for me in one damn episode.

Do you know what has jumped the shark? People saying "blah blah just jumped the shark". That pop-culture phrase has officially lost all common meaning.

greenamp · Mar 25, 2007, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by xi_hyperon

^ But how does the music tell them they're cylons? I just didn't get that.

I think it's just the coincidence of it and that it just happened "like a switch being switched on..." as Tyrol said.

It's really the only logical explanation, and it kinda makes good sense for them to be 4 of the final five, as they are all 4 in key support positions to ensure the humans make it to Earth.

RAILhead · Mar 25, 2007, 11:27 PM

I'm in the minority I guess, because I didn't like it much. I thought there were a million reasons Saul couldn't be a cylon, plus the whole "oh crap, we must be cylons," plus the standard bring-the-dead-person-back ending.

Lame.

Visnaut · 12:28 AM

That was awesome! A total paradigm shift, just like all the other season finales.

As for them knowing that they were cylons, c'mon use a little imagination. Just like Boomer, their programming was activated and they all of a sudden knew. The fact that they've been dormant for so long (possibly since childhood, as alluded to by Tyrol and Anders) was shocking to them because they previously had no reason to suspect it. Except for the Chief with his dreams, and being led to the Temple of the Five and the Eye of Jupiter.

The fact that Tigh is a cylon also alludes to there being something else at play here. If he was in the first Cylon War, then clearly he cannot be a product of the cylons' creation after the Armistice. He, and likely the other final four, had to have come from elsewhere. Maybe they were the ones who created the other cylons.

Another interesting thing is that those who were revealed as cylons in the finale were all on New Caprica during the occupation. Maybe it's not significant, but I thought it was interesting.

And I'm not so sure Starbuck is one of the final five anymore. Which would raise the question of who the final cylon is.

Who knows? I can't wait for 4th season!

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 26, 2007, 12:20 AM

I'm on the fence about it. What I don't like is the characters they revieled to be Cylons are not ones that they could have planned from the beginning.

Anders wasn't supposed to be a major character when we first met him in season 2 and the presidents aid was only brought in after the actor who played billy wanted to leave the show.

Saul hasn't shown any other Cylon tendancies in 3 years.

The only one that makes sence to me is the chief. He had nightmares of being a Cylon, spiritually drawn to the temple of 5 and he banged Boomer for a long time without getting her preggers (That Cylon on Cylon action don't work remember).

Guess that means that his kid is also a hybrid.

Questions for me.

Where was the final Cylon?

Is Starbuck with the Cylon fleet or did she just show up at the same time by fluke.

How is Starbuck alive? How is her Viper in one piece?

Eug · Mar 26, 2007, 12:32 AM

I think the only conclusion one can make from this episode is that Bob Dylan is the Master Cylon.

UNTeMac · 12:53 AM

2008?! 2008????!

I want to know at what point in Earth history are the humans finally going to arrive if that's where the music is coming from. If the music is directly from Earth...that's an awfully long time to travel at the only the speed of light.

As for the episode, I liked the first 30 minutes...hated the next 15, and loved the last 15. I thought the revelation of the four cylons was hurried and silly. It's been built up so much and that was such a let down. I cheered when Lee saw the bogey though. I knew she was coming back but I didn't know if it was going to be this episode.

Looks like we're in for a nice space battle though....

in 2008.

:dragonflypro: · Mar 26, 2007, 12:49 AM

The writers are either losing complete control or have a devious plan…

We'll know in 9 months <.

T

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 12:49 AM

Holy frak! ::Jaw drop::

selowitch · Mar 26, 2007, 01:04 AM

I can't help but feel a sense of vindication. Starbuck wasn't gone forever as everyone insisted. I was right after all.
Tigh, Anders, Chief, and that foxy dark-skinned chick — all Cylons? Give me a break!
There's no way Galactica can go toe-to-toe with four Basestars and make it out alive. Heck, it took a kamikaze mission by Pegasus to take out just two of them to narrowly save the Galactica from destruction last time. So, something is going to have to happen to avoid a direct confrontation or else the ship, which is more the main character than anybody on two legs, will be off the show.

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 01:12 AM

I am rather certain that fully staffed and prepared Galactica and Pegasus could take on 4 BaseStars. Afterall, the Pegasus was able to take on three in a sneak attack, disable one and still get away ok.

Eug · Mar 26, 2007, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by selowitch

I can't help but feel a sense of vindication. Starbuck wasn't gone forever as everyone insisted. I was right after all.

If you look back at the last few pages, many people said she'd be back, including some that said she'd be back this very episode.

Originally Posted by UNTeMac

As for the episode, I liked the first 30 minutes...hated the next 15, and loved the last 15. I thought the revelation of the four cylons was hurried and silly. It's been built up so much and that was such a let down. I cheered when Lee saw the bogey though. I knew she was coming back but I didn't know if it was going to be this episode.

That was my assessment too.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 26, 2007, 01:27 AM

I don't get how those 4 people all instantly concluded they were Cylons just because they heard the same music.

Eug · Mar 26, 2007, 01:34 AM

Master Cylon Bob Dylan is controlling their minds.

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I don't get how those 4 people all instantly concluded they were Cylons just because they heard the same music.

They didn't. The moment they all appeared in the same room together their Cylon sides "activated". They suddenly became aware of their true nature, their histories, etc. Everything. As Chief Tyrol said, "Just like flipping a switch."

Tigh's acting in that scene really took me. He finally realized who he truly was and decided that he still loved his human side. As such, he would live up to the myth of Saul Tigh and do his job.

analogue SPRINKLES · Mar 26, 2007, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by bstone

They didn't. The moment they all appeared in the same room together their Cylon sides "activated". They suddenly became aware of their true nature, their histories, etc. Everything. As Chief Tyrol said, "Just like flipping a switch."

I thought the "Switch" talk was referring just to the radio acting as a homing device but not that it unlocked memories of their whole history.

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I thought the "Switch" talk was referring just to the radio acting as a homing device but not that it unlocked memories of their whole history.

The "switch" comment referred specifically and unambiguously to their Cylon sides being activated.

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Because we saw her ship blow up?

Considering that her ship is now known to be not blown up, and Kara has been to Earth, does my wormhole theory gain a bit of ground?

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Considering that her ship is now known to be not blown up, and Kara has been to Earth, does my wormhole theory gain a bit of ground?

No wormhole. The ship she was in was most certainly not the same as she was in when we saw her go kaboom. Why? Because her ship showed up as "UNKNOWN" on DRADIS. If it were the same ship then her Colonial Transponder would certainly have indicated it.

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by bstone

No wormhole. The ship she was in was most certainly not the same as she was in when we saw her go kaboom. Why? Because her ship showed up as "UNKNOWN" on DRADIS. If it were the same ship then her Colonial Transponder would certainly have indicated it.

The Pegasus showed as unknown when they encountered it. This leads me to believe the transponders have to be pre-linked before ships leave on a mission (or in reality it's dramatic effect).

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

The Pegasus showed as unknown when they encountered it. This leads me to believe the transponders have to be pre-linked before ships leave on a mission (or in reality it's dramatic effect).

Showed as unknown briefly, but then their computers identified it. That's why Gaeta said, "Sir, I'm picking up Colonial transponders."

Buckaroo · Mar 26, 2007, 02:36 AM

Oh my gosh. What is going on? What a twist.

We have to wait until next year. Damn.

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by bstone

Showed as unknown briefly, but then their computers identified it. That's why Gaeta said, "Sir, I'm picking up Colonial transponders."

First, it's an old viper. We don't even know if it's current enough to have transponders, or if fighters even have ident transponders at all. We know that they can be read on Dradis, but that doesn't mean they actually have identity transponders. Secondly, he didn't have a stable dradis contact with it, making the idea of Adama's fighter being able to exchange transponder information with it less likely.

I mean, c'mon, you're trying to tell me that she just happens to be flying a craft that looks identical, is just as old, and is in the same beat up shape as her old one, but isn't her old craft?

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

First, it's an old viper. We don't even know if it's current enough to have transponders, or if fighters even have ident transponders at all. We know that they can be read on Dradis, but that doesn't mean they actually have identity transponders. Secondly, he didn't have a stable dradis contact with it, making the idea of Adama's fighter being able to exchange transponder information with it less likely.

I mean, c'mon, you're trying to tell me that she just happens to be flying a craft that looks identical, is just as old, and is in the same beat up shape as her old one, but isn't her old craft?

All Colonial military units have transponders. They are super advanced. Even the Blackbird had a transponder and it was unique.

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by bstone

All Colonial military units have transponders. They are super advanced. Even the Blackbird had a transponder and it was unique.

No it didn't. See Resurrection Ship Pt 1, first 5 minutes. The fleet thought it was a Cylon raider and was ordered to attack it.

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

No it didn't. See Resurrection Ship Pt 1, first 5 minutes. The fleet thought it was a Cylon raider and was ordered to attack it.

The transponders might only work within a certain distance or it might take a few moments for it to communicate with DRADIS and make an identification, but all Colonial military units have transponders. That much is clear.

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by bstone

The transponders might only work within a certain distance or it might take a few moments for it to communicate with DRADIS and make an identification, but all Colonial military units have transponders. That much is clear.

The fleet didn't recognize the blackbird until they were right up with it. Also there was interference with Kara's viper one Lee's dradis in this episode so it is completely possible a transponder signal did not go through.

Even when Galactica found Pegasus, and got transponder codes, it have to verify them.

You're trying to say that Kara has come back in a complete replica of her original viper but somehow the transponder was left out?

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 03:28 AM

There also seems to be some discussion as to the Viper not being the same because it's either too clean, or it doesn't have Kara's name on it.

Well, here is Kara's Viper in it's final minutes in Maelstrom.

bstone · Mar 26, 2007, 03:39 AM

[QUOTE=goMac;3337217]The fleet didn't recognize the blackbird until they were right up with it. Also there was interference with Kara's viper one Lee's dradis in this episode so it is completely possible a transponder signal did not go through.
[quote]

Quoting Kara, "..it's a damn stealth ship."

Even when Galactica found Pegasus, and got transponder codes, it have to verify them.

No. They demanded authentication, not verification. Major differences.

You're trying to say that Kara has come back in a complete replica of her original viper but somehow the transponder was left out?

Complete replica? That thing was moving REAL fast, even for a Viper Mark VII. Looks like a Viper but is obviously real advanced.

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by bstone

Quoting Kara, "..it's a damn stealth ship."

So are you now saying it doesn't have a transponder? Cause putting a transponder on a stealth ship would kinda sorta be a bad idea.

Originally Posted by bstone

No. They demanded authentication, not verification. Major differences.

Before ident authentication colonial dradis seem to default to unknown enemy status (probably for dramatic reasons). Given that Kara's ship was already going on and off dradis, it's very possible ident could not happen because there was too much interference.

Originally Posted by bstone

Complete replica? That thing was moving REAL fast, even for a Viper Mark VII. Looks like a Viper but is obviously real advanced.

We already know Kara is a fancy flyer. I think it's a stretch to jump to the conclusion that she is flying some advanced ship. Where did she get it? Earth? Why does it look exactly like her Viper? Doesn't make sense. Why do you assume Lee was going full speed?

Chuckit · Mar 26, 2007, 04:53 AM

One very important reason why it's not the same Viper from "Maelstrom":

THAT VIPER BLEW UP

goMac · Mar 26, 2007, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

One very important reason why it's not the same Viper from "Maelstrom":

THAT VIPER BLEW UP

Lee saw the Viper blow up. Of course, Kara saw a Cylon ship. Baltar sees a Six in his head. Six sees a Baltar in her head. And Roslyn sees snakes. (Which reminds me, the only other explanation I find plausible is that Lee is simply seeing Kara and she is not really there.)

There isn't a good track record of people seeing things and them being real in BSG. Note that conveniently debris were never recovered from Kara's fighter, and Kara's body was never recovered. I mean, where else did Kara get an identical Viper? How else would she have gotten to Earth?

It just feels like people are trying to make up much more complicated explanations for what happened, when the simple most logical explanation is her Viper must have never been destroyed. Otherwise, you are required to believe that she somehow got to Earth without a space ship and then ran across another Viper that happened to match her old one (that apparently didn't have a transponder unlike her old one).

Combined with the fact that Ronald Moore refused to actually say if/what damaged Kara's Viper in Maelstrom, I'd say it was never ever actually destroyed to being with.

Chuckit · 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Note that conveniently debris were never recovered from Kara's fighter, and Kara's body was never recovered.

Considering she fell into the core of a giant gas planet, it's not really that surprising.

Originally Posted by goMac

I mean, where else did Kara get an identical Viper?

Maybe I'm thick, but how was this Viper more identical than any other two Vipers? I would say not being blown up actually makes this Viper more different from the one we saw in "Maelstrom" than most Vipers are from each other.

Originally Posted by goMac

It just feels like people are trying to make up much more complicated explanations for what happened, when the simple most logical explanation is her Viper must have never been destroyed.

I'm not convinced that's the most logical explanation, but even if we were to accept that, we still haven't gotten to "wormhole." As far as we know, wormholes don't exist in the universe of Galactica.

Originally Posted by goMac

Otherwise, you are required to believe that she somehow got to Earth without a space ship and then ran across another Viper that happened to match her old one (that apparently didn't have a transponder unlike her old one).

Hmm, if only there were some species on the show that's capable of dying and then coming back in a separate but identical form…

Originally Posted by goMac

Combined with the fact that Ronald Moore refused to actually say if/what damaged Kara's Viper in Maelstrom, I'd say it was never ever actually destroyed to being with.

Maybe I'm having a premature senior moment, but I only recall him refusing to say what made Starbuck go boom. He seemed pretty sure she had.