[lil'babykitten]

It is currently breaking news. I'll post a link when it arrives. (or someone else will)

Curious.

[boots]

Yes, Curious. Will wait to see a) what the evidence is and b) if it is something that can be verified. There were too many "lab's" reported in the war that turned out to be pesticide factories for me to jump up and down yet.

(PS it's on the BBC breaking news ticker...haven't seen it elsewhere yet.)

[lil'babykitten]

He is being interviewed at the moment. Could have been is usual rhetoric. We'll see.

(interview isn't over yet)

[voodoo]

Exciting

We'll see..

[lil'babykitten]

LINKY

The Iraq Survey Group has already found massive evidence of a huge system of clandestine laboratories, workings by scientists, plans to develop long range ballistic missiles

David Kay said that in October....

[Developer]

I assume when he says "has found massive evidence of clandestine laboratories", the laboratories themselves have not been found?

We'll have to see.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
David Kay said that in October....

The next Kay report should be even more informative. At the time of the first Kay report, his team had only inspected 10 of an extimated 230 sites, and they had 9 miles of documents to go through.

Whispers I've heard include an arsenal of 650-mile Chinese missiles that have a specially-made canister tip that could only be used for sarin (apparently, sarin requires careful and specific mixing while in-flight).

[petehammer]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Whispers I've heard include an arsenal of 650-mile Chinese missiles that have a specially-made canister tip that could only be used for sarin (apparently, sarin requires careful and specific mixing while in-flight).

I've heard talk of helium-powered anti-gravity monkeys, which drop bombs of deadly peppermint. Apparently, this peppermint comes from Irish midgets, who are strapped to the monkeys and make the deadly bombs in-flight.

[thunderous_funker]

I've heard they had reconstituted their nuclear program and had nuclear weapons.

I've heard they could launch an attack within 45 minutes.

I've heard they had tons and tons of biological and chemical weapons at their disposal.

I've heard they had un-manned drones that could deploy anywhere in the world.

I've heard they were trying to buy enriched uranium in Africa.

I've heard they bought aluminum tubes for centrifuges.

etc ad naseum

[Spliffdaddy]

If this is true it has the potential to make Dubya a Hero.

Hero. with a capital H.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If this is true it has the potential to make Dubya a Hero.

Hero. with a capital H.

At this point, I think there are very very few undecided. Most people have made up their minds on how they feel about the pre-war rational.

Those who already thought him a Hero aren't going to change their minds in the absence of clear evidence, as amply demonstrated in the last 6 months. While those who felt we rushed in unecessarily are likely to dismiss any new discoveries since Iraq didn't even seem capable of defending itself no matter what they might have buried in the desert.

I guess this is why I find this endless repetition of the pre-war debate so tiresome. At this point, I really don't think it matters any more.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I guess this is why I find this endless repetition of the pre-war debate so tiresome. At this point, I really don't think it matters any more.

I see what you mean about the pre-war debate becoming tiresome. However, this WMD debacle IMO still remains a very important issue. The 'I don't think it matters anymore' approach is exactly what the governments who pushed for this war want it's citizens to start thinking. It simply lets them off the hook. The fact, at the moment, still remains; we were taken to war on a lie. Personally I'm not prepared to let that one go just yet-if ever.

Of course, if it did arise that WMD were very much ready for immediate use and the rest of it, many people who were anti-war can still point to other things that were/are wrong-the Haliburton contracts, the civilian deaths, etc. But those too are legitimate points.

The worst thing for us to do would be to drop the WMD issue. It raises serious questions about the state of our own so-called democracies.

[petehammer]

Good post.

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Of course, if it did arise that WMD were very much ready for immediate use

Of course, it's taken us a year to find them (if we find them at all).

Very much like that needle that can prick anyone in the next 45 minutes except that it's buried underneath all of that hay. Why would a country defend itself with a needle when they can't find that needle in the haystack?

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I see what you mean about the pre-war debate becoming tiresome. However, this WMD debacle IMO still remains a very important issue. The 'I don't think it matters anymore' approach is exactly what the governments who pushed for this war want it's citizens to start thinking. It simply lets them off the hook. The fact, at the moment, still remains; we were taken to war on a lie. Personally I'm not prepared to let that one go just yet-if ever.

Of course, if it did arise that WMD were very much ready for immediate use and the rest of it, many people who were anti-war can still point to other things that were/are wrong-the Haliburton contracts, the civilian deaths, etc. But those too are legitimate points.

The worst thing for us to do would be to drop the WMD issue. It raises serious questions about the state of our own so-called democracies.

I don't mean to say that is doesn't piss me off endlessly, but the simple truth is that not enough Americans gave a rat's ass about whether or not they were misled.

Some Democrats seem to think that residual anger over this issue will get them elected. I happen to think they haven't been paying very close attention to the national discourse. It might win them the Democratic nomination, but it won't win a national election.

Right or wrong, most Americans don't really care about the pre-war scandal because they are too busy gloating over winning. After all, in America, winning is everything.

I really wanted to see a massive outpouring of rage and a public outcry for a detailed investigation. Didn't happen. Opposition leadership in the Congress might have made it happen by taking a clear case to the people, but it didn't happen.

Let's face it. The only thing presidents get punished for in this country is their sex life. Lying, cheating, robbing, selling arms to terrorists, coddling dictators, greenlighting genocide--none of that seems to crack the blissful ignorance of the average American voter and wake them from the delusion that our nation does no wrong. Well, at least not enough wrong for anyone to really get upset about. After all, we won the war!!! USA! USA! USA!

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I don't mean to say that is doesn't piss me off endlessly, but the simple truth is that not enough Americans gave a rat's ass about whether or not they were misled.

Some Democrats seem to think that residual anger over this issue will get them elected. I happen to think they haven't been paying very close attention to the national discourse. It might win them the Democratic nomination, but it won't win a national election.

Right or wrong, most Americans don't really care about the pre-war scandal because they are too busy gloating over winning. After all, in America, winning is everything.

I really wanted to see a massive outpouring of rage and a public outcry for a detailed investigation. Didn't happen. Opposition leadership in the Congress might have made it happen by taking a clear case to the people, but it didn't happen.

Let's face it. The only thing presidents get punished for in this country is their sex life. Lying, cheating, robbing, selling arms to terrorists, coddling dictators, greenlighting genocide--none of that seems to crack the blissful ignorance of the average American voter and wake them from the delusion that our nation does no wrong. Well, at least not enough wrong for anyone to really get upset about. After all, we won the war!!! USA! USA! USA!

Not only are you elitist in your opinion that you know so much more than "most Americans", but you are also incredibly assumptive in your rationale as to why "most Americans" don't agree with your point of view.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by petehammer:
I've heard talk of helium-powered anti-gravity monkeys, which drop bombs of deadly peppermint. Apparently, this peppermint comes from Irish midgets, who are strapped to the monkeys and make the deadly bombs in-flight.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Not only are you elitist in your opinion that you know so much more than "most Americans", but you are also incredibly assumptive in your rationale as to why "most Americans" don't agree with your point of view.

I'm not suggesting everyone would come to the same decision about the pre-war "intelligence". I didn't mean that I think everyone should believe they were lied to.

I was merely pointing out that Americans as a whole seemed to be largely incurious about the whole thing. It just didn't seem to be the issue that some thought it should be. That's all.

While England was practically consumed over the issue, most Americans were simply willing to pass it off as a minor matter of "16 little words" in a speech. It never really became a scandal. Sure, the media was all over it, but that never really penetrated the public the way I thought it would.

Does it mean Americans are stupid? Intellectually lazy? Ignorant? Probably not. Maybe it just means they are rather cynical about issues of government honesty and don't really get riled up about it.

I happen to think that most people didn't really think it mattered because we won. I mean, as long as we won and everything is ok, why worry about shoulda/woulda/coulda?

In some ways, that kind of lack of retrospection and self-dout is one of America's strengths.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
In some ways, that kind of lack of retrospection and self-doubt is one of America's strengths.

If by strengths you mean horrible faults, then yes.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by petehammer:
If by strengths you mean horrible faults, then yes.

Its good and bad.

While it means that we sometimes are slow to learn from our mistakes, it also means that past mistakes don't prevent us from forging ahead and taking on new challenges out a sense of self-doubt.

Its a mixed blessing. I might wish that America was a bit more of a contemplative superpower, there are serious drawbacks to being a superpower paralyzed by fear of being wrong.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I don't mean to say that is doesn't piss me off endlessly, but the simple truth is that not enough Americans gave a rat's ass about whether or not they were misled.

Some Democrats seem to think that residual anger over this issue will get them elected. I happen to think they haven't been paying very close attention to the national discourse. It might win them the Democratic nomination, but it won't win a national election.

Right or wrong, most Americans don't really care about the pre-war scandal because they are too busy gloating over winning. After all, in America, winning is everything.

I really wanted to see a massive outpouring of rage and a public outcry for a detailed investigation. Didn't happen. Opposition leadership in the Congress might have made it happen by taking a clear case to the people, but it didn't happen.

Let's face it. The only thing presidents get punished for in this country is their sex life. Lying, cheating, robbing, selling arms to terrorists, coddling dictators, greenlighting genocide--none of that seems to crack the blissful ignorance of the average American voter and wake them from the delusion that our nation does no wrong. Well, at least not enough wrong for anyone to really get upset about. After all, we won the war!!! USA! USA! USA!

You make several points- disappointing though they are, I think there is a lot of truth to them.

Frankly, I think the Democrats should be ashamed of themselves. There were/are plenty of questionable stories told by the Bush administration that they could have capitalised on. Instead they sit around and criticise each other.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If this is true it has the potential to make Dubya a Hero.

Hero. with a capital H.

And if it's not true? 'hero' with a small 'h'?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
And if it's not true? 'hero' with a small 'h'?

Or liar with a capital L I A R?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Or liar with a capital L I A R?

Not possible. The President of the United States can't possibly be a liar ... unless, of course, he's a Democrat. But then, they don't really count as Presidents, do they? They certainly don't seem to be entitled to the same amount of respect that Americans are required to extend to the current President in order to avoid being labeled "traitor"

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Not possible. The President of the United States can't possibly be a liar ... unless, of course, he's a Democrat. But then, they don't really count as Presidents, do they? They certainly don't seem to be entitled to the same amount of respect that Americans are required to extend to the current President in order to avoid being labeled "traitor"

[Spheric Harlot]

...well?













Thought not.

[gadster]

Massive?

[Sven G]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
[...] Let's face it. The only thing presidents get punished for in this country is their sex life. Lying, cheating, robbing, selling arms to terrorists, coddling dictators, greenlighting genocide - none of that seems to crack the blissful ignorance of the average American voter and wake them from the delusion that our nation does no wrong. Well, at least not enough wrong for anyone to really get upset about. After all, we won the war!!! USA! USA! USA!

Well said!

And, actually, this kind of "average voter" becomes more and more frequent in any western country: of course, this is also the result of decades of manipulation of people, thus resulting in less and less participation from the political point of view.

When everything is pretty much already decided (*), why bother to participate in decision-making? "Average" people are essentially powerless, in today's system - and, thus, become more and more cynical and uninterested in anything that goes beyond "private" life, etc.

Very, very bad...

(*) See, for example, this N. Chomsky quote: he really gets the point, here, IMHO:

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.

[lil'babykitten]

Oh well, another empty statement from a politician. We're all used to that.
Meh.

[Millennium]

OK, fine. Massive evidence he says. Let's see it; that's all I ask. I'm sick of the doublespeak; there might be evidence or there might not; fact is, no one outside the people actually doing the searching can really say for sure.

So let's break the silence. These idiots could silence almost every opponent they've got, simply by showing us this evidence they claim to have found. So let's see this. There are no agents in danger anymore, so no excuse remains to keep it hidden.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
The next Kay report should be even more informative. At the time of the first Kay report, his team had only inspected 10 of an extimated 230 sites, and they had 9 miles of documents to go through.

Whispers I've heard include an arsenal of 650-mile Chinese missiles that have a specially-made canister tip that could only be used for sarin (apparently, sarin requires careful and specific mixing while in-flight).

whispers?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Millennium:
OK, fine. Massive evidence he says. Let's see it; that's all I ask. I'm sick of the doublespeak; there might be evidence or there might not; fact is, no one outside the people actually doing the searching can really say for sure.

So let's break the silence. These idiots could silence almost every opponent they've got, simply by showing us this evidence they claim to have found. So let's see this. There are no agents in danger anymore, so no excuse remains to keep it hidden.

I recall the Iraqi UN delegation complaining that Powell's speech "hollywood smoke and mirrors".

If there was evidence, actual evidence, they would have provided it by now to silence critics. They haven't, because they don't have it. They might have it at some future date, but they don't have it now.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I recall the Iraqi UN delegation complaining that Powell's speech "hollywood smoke and mirrors".

If there was evidence, actual evidence, they would have provided it by now to silence critics. They haven't, because they don't have it. They might have it at some future date, but they don't have it now.

A 'future date' defined as "just prior to next year's presidential election".

see above; Hero

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
A 'future date' defined as "just prior to next year's presidential election".

see above; Hero

wow. I never though you'd call me a hero...thanks!

to what do I owe this honor?


regardless, it appears you're implying that Bush would orchestrate intelligence findings to get the greatest benefit for his re-election.
In that, I must agree with you.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
A 'future date' defined as "just prior to next year's presidential election".

see above; Hero

I'll agree with that. At this point in time it is more valuable for Bush to release evidence of WMDs found in Iraq just prior to the 2004 election. Such information just prior to the election would almost surely cliche it for him.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Such information just prior to the election would almost surely cliche it for him.

LOL! talk about freudian slips!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
LOL! talk about freudian slips!

heh! Whoops ... think I'll leave it though!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
whispers?

You know, the massive report that spacefreak said would blow all us skeptics away in early September! No, wait, late September! No, wait...

-s*

[Powerbook]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You know, the massive report that spacefreak said would blow all us skeptics away in early September! No, wait, late September! No, wait...

-s*

Exactly.
All the stacking and gathering, all the preparing, all the mountains of WMDs ready in 11 minutes... OMFG!!!!

PB.