[mattyb]

So, Euro 2012 kicks off in a few days. I predict a repeat of the last World Cup Final, but this time the Dutch win it. Can never count Germany out of the picture though. England will be useless.

Anyway, before it starts there are a few friendlies. Tonight the holders and World Champs are playing.



Haven't laughed so much since Stefan Kuntz played in Euro '96.

[Waragainstsleep]

Spain are definitely weakened since last time out. No Puyol and Villa, Torres a shadow of his former self.

Its nice that England are going to a tournament without anywhere near as much pressure on them as they usually get. Whether it'll matter or not, I doubt. I'll be happy if Andy Carroll has a good showing though.

[mattyb]

So War, what do you reckon of your new manager?

[Waragainstsleep]

Personally, I wouldn't have sacked Kenny. I would have given him another season.
I know results wise we were miles away from where we should be, but performance wise we really weren't. I actually watched the vast majority of games this past season and we only put in 3 or 4 genuinely poor displays, if that. Had we won the games we deserved to, we'd have been top 4 no question. That said, you can't attribute it all to bad luck when its that consistent, but I don't think our new boss really has much to do to put things right.

Downing was much maligned (again based on his stats of 0 goals and 0 assists), but in his defence he made plenty of good runs and put in plenty of good crosses from the wing, exactly what we bought him for, its just that whenever the cross was good, there was no-one in the box. Players not getting into the box enough was probably our main problem all season long.

As for Rodgers I'm not sure why they wanted him more than Martinez, personally I don't think either of them are quite proven enough at the top level though Martinez managed to beat most if not all of the top 6 this season with a far weaker team. OK, Rodgers got Swansea promoted and had a good first season but I think that makes him a much bigger risk than Andy Carroll (who now looks to be coming good. He was really spectacularly good when he came on in the cup final). Plenty of teams have a good first season in the prem before tanking.

The owners don't seem to be following their own philosophy. They want someone who can build a dynasty, but they've just swapped a man who has for a man who hasn't done anything close and its a huge gamble. Even if it pays off immediately, I think it would be unfair not to give most of the credit to Kenny and Comoli.

If I was John Henry, I'd have offered Guardiola £20M and foregone another overpriced player purchase. I might also have made an approach for Mourinho before he signed an extension at Real. If they had won the CL he might have actually gone for it, though I think he is holding out for your team to need a new boss.

I can see Rodgers entertaining the fans with some nice football, and getting back into the CL. Then they'll get frustrated when we don't win it and bring Benitez back in. I would have seriously considered him this time. I'd love to see what he could do with better financial backing.

[mattyb]

No football owners give managers enough time anymore. Wenger and Fergie are exceptions (and personally I'm surprised that Wenger is still managing Arsenal).

I'm surprised at the hiring of Rodgers and not someone like Capello, or another super-star manager. I can't see Guardiola in England. I wonder if he'll do international stuff now. He also had the best ingredients available during his time at Barca. Apart from Ibrahimović he hasn't had a bad player in the team - and I mean on the bench as well. Yeah, consider me jealous of his success.

We've heard about Mourinho coming to Man Utd for a few years. I just can't see it. But then I can't see anyone else that could fill Fergie's shoes. I think that the Yanks would be afraid of hiring Mourinho, I mean how long would he stay? Could he put up with the North-West? I doubt Fergie has half his salary at the moment.

You LFC fans really love Benitez don't you? He had what, one or two 'lucky' years. You guys need (like you said) someone to build a dynasty. And you need to finish in the top 4 consistently. People are still scared of playing Liverpool, but 8th isn't good enough.

[Waragainstsleep]

Benitez lost the plot a bit and he made one or two mistakes, namely falling out with and failing to replace Alonso (never replaced Mascherano either) but some of that was the previous yanks screwing up the finances.
Before that he built a team that really should have won the league in 2009, but the two CL finals wasn't luck, he relays is the master when it comes to tactics in Europe. That was his real strength. We should have won in 2007 too, Milan were poor that night but Liverpool didn't start playing until the 80th minute. Also should have been more stoppage time, I think we'd have equalised given another two minutes.

I suspect Fergie is getting paid a lot of money. Mourinho and Guardiola are the only ones with records near comparable to his and hence currently the only choices to replace him if he were to go tomorrow,

I'm not sure people are scared of playing Liverpool. Maybe some of the bigger teams sometimes but the smaller ones tend to fancy they can get something. They aren't nearly scared enough.

8th isn't good enough, but the performances deserved better and when you win a cup 8th is really no worse than 5th so progress was made. Hodgeson had us playing like an away team when we were at home. Set up to defend and counter against far lesser sides. Thats why he had to go. He seems to have learned that lesson at West Brom though. Last season I think we just started with bad luck and then got disheartened. Still should have hired Robbie Fowler back as striking coach.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Its nice that England are going to a tournament without anywhere near as much pressure on them as they usually get. Whether it'll matter or not, I doubt. I'll be happy if Andy Carroll has a good showing though.

England has good chances to win the Euro 2012 - at least they (well, an English team) now know how to win a penalty shootout!

[Waragainstsleep]

It would be good if England could pull a Chelsea who up until this month had a shootout record as bad as England if not worse. We have teams with better records though. Chelsea lost a CL final shootout to another english side a few years back and Liverpool have a pretty enviable penalty shootout record, though their penalty record last season was awful.

[mattyb]

The French beat Iceland (not even pro players) 3-2 after loosing 2-0 at half time. They then beat Serbia 2-0. England beat Norway and Belgium by 1-0 each.

I see a draw as our first game (against the Frogs), draw against the Swedes and loosing to Ukraine.

[Waragainstsleep]

Its difficult to see where the goals will come from for us. Players are still dropping like flies due to injuries and tonight we just didn't have any possession and didn't look creative when we did. Belgium didn't look like scoring for all their possession which is a good sign, but as Liverpool will tell you, you can't win if you don't score any goals.

[P]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Its difficult to see where the goals will come from for us.

This. England finally has a good goalkeeper, and pair that with problems just about everywhere else. I actually think that England has a good chance if it can survive the game against the French - with Rooney back they should have no trouble with Ukraine, and England and Sweden draw most games in any case - but it's a very fragile team now.

[Waragainstsleep]

Yes, England-Sweden has draw written all over it. I don't think the England-France game will be a draw. It'll probably be won by an odd goal one way or the other. Our defence is good but scoring depends on a piece of individual flair or brilliance, usually against the run of play. The french defence seems prone to leaking at the moment and while their attack has quality, they don't have anything the calibre of Zidane (who does though?), Henry or even Trezeguet any more. Ribery is past his best, Benzema probably isn't there yet.

I confess I know very little about Ukraine these days. Home advantage will help them but on paper England should win that one. I do worry about the weather if it is too hot. England struggle with heat as our season is played almost entirely in the rain.

[Waragainstsleep]

I think Matty is right. The dutch look like the team to beat right now. Especially after hitting 6 yesterday. They are probably due a tournament win as well.

[mattyb]

And the Dutch go down to Denmark. Lets see what the Portuguese can do against the Germans.

Some pundit said before the matches yesterday that Russia was a dark horse - good first result from them.

[P]

20 minutes left, 0-0, but the Germans are the better team. I do think that Germany and Portugal will be the two teams to go through from group B, though - they're both strong all-round teams without any real weaknesses.

[Waragainstsleep]

Typical German performance. Portugal shouldn't have set up to defend though, they were much better once they had to go on the attack and unfortunate not to equalise.

I can actually see Denmark getting out of the group. They defended well today and for all their dominance the dutch didn't look like they'd score. If they get a result against portugal, they'll be set. Germany Vs. Netherlands should be good though.

[mattyb]

Phew!!! Happy with a draw. France were all over England. Hopefully we can get some good results in the other games.

Parker looked good, not sure about the Ox though. Good choice to have Gerrard as captain, true leader.

[Waragainstsleep]

I can't work out why he didn't bring Carroll on. Defending deep, hitting long clearances, you want to have a big target man who can win headers against big defenders and hold the ball up, not scrawny midgets like Welbeck and Walcott. Carroll would have helped ease the pressure and IMO given a better chance of nicking a winner.

[P]

Well, that didn't go as planned.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by P 

Well, that didn't go as planned.

Exactly! We are playing a football pool (do you say that in English? We bet on the game results) here in my company and I predicted the England - France game right and got 3 points but I didn't expect Urkraine to win this one (0 points)!
I'm still 2nd out of 40 players though...

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I can't work out why he didn't bring Carroll on. Defending deep, hitting long clearances, you want to have a big target man who can win headers against big defenders and hold the ball up, not scrawny midgets like Welbeck and Walcott. Carroll would have helped ease the pressure and IMO given a better chance of nicking a winner.

Agree with you here, England needed a dedicated centre forward and didn't have one. Even if he can use Rooney, he's not a 'dedicated' centre forward. From the way that we played, I can't see us getting out of the group.

[Waragainstsleep]

I don't know about that. It probably won't help us that Sweden lost though.

In advance, I'd have taken a draw, but after the game I can't help but think that game was winnable. I still have concerns over the fitness of our players and their ability to deal with heat. Our stats in terms of second half goals over the last few years speaks volumes.

Steven Gerrard said the heat was a problem for the french too, but more of them have african heritage and being on the continent France gets hotter than England and spends much more time being hotter. England should have been acclimatising and training in the heat longer. This was a major lapse of judgement on someones part.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they will hold a tournament somewhere cold and wet. We'd excel there.

[mattyb]

Phew!!!!

Lets hope we can beat the Ukrainians (and that goal difference is in our favour to finish top).

[Waragainstsleep]

Well that was a great game for the neutral, nice for us to be on the winning side of a nail biter for a change though. Spain, Italy or Croatia in the next round though. Who will we get?

There are still some very open groups which is nice. In Group A anyone could still go through though I think Greece would have to win 4-0 or better. Germany are through but runner up in the group of death is still anyone's for the taking. Runner up to spain still has two contenders and there remains two places for three sides in our group too. Exciting stuff.

England Vs Spain is going to look like Chelsea Vs Barca again, though I don't hold out too much hope of the same result.

[mattyb]

Unreal. The Greeks managed to pass the group stage.

Please, Football God, don't let them win it again.

[Waragainstsleep]

Have a punt on them just in case.

Group of death ends tonight, should be interesting.

[mattyb]

Didn't get to see the games, was Ronny as good as that? Hate the guy but a wonderful footballer.

The Dutch. What odds would you have gotten for them to lose every game? Amazing.

Greeks beat the Germans in a penalty shoot-out? One can hope.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Unreal. The Greeks managed to pass the group stage.

Please, Football God, don't let them win it again.

No way in hell. Germany is going to kick their ass. First in soccer, then economically

-t

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

No way in hell. Germany is going to kick their ass. First in soccer, then economically

Please turtle, in this thread use the term FOOTBALL.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Greeks beat the Germans in a penalty shoot-out? One can hope.

Oh pleeease, noooo!
I can only hope that the football god stops the greek wonder now and the German team sends them home to pay some taxes...

[turtle777]

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Please turtle, in this thread use the term FOOTBALL.

I shall use the true spelling, Fußball.

-t

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Didn't get to see the games, was Ronny as good as that? Hate the guy but a wonderful footballer.

The Dutch. What odds would you have gotten for them to lose every game? Amazing.

Greeks beat the Germans in a penalty shoot-out? One can hope.

Two goals is two goals, but he missed a few chances before he scored them. I always thought he was a touch overrate but he seems to have finally managed to put in some good performances in big games rather than only turning up against opposition who will make him look good.
Before the goals, the commentary team were lamenting his wretched showing at the tournament afterwards he was golden boy again.

It looked as though the Dutch would probably get what they needed until Portugal equalised. They pretty much gave up after that.

[P]

And THAT game we win? Well, they did play for the shirt, I give them that.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by P 

And THAT game we win? Well, they did play for the shirt, I give them that.

You should have beaten the Ukraine as well.

Dunno what to make of Italy. Reckon that we could do them actually.

[Waragainstsleep]

I have that feeling too.

Germany in the semis is not appealing though.

[P]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

You should have beaten the Ukraine as well.

Dunno what to make of Italy. Reckon that we could do them actually.

Of course we should have beaten the Ukraine, and the England game was close as well. One point in either would have been enough.

I think your chances against Italy are better than even. Your offense is strong enough to score multiple goals - the Italians are lacking their usual organization in the defense this year - and I don't see the Italians scoring more than possible once.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Germany in the semis is not appealing though.

Hopefully there won't be too many red and yellow cards against Italy so that if we get through, it'll be with a 'full' team. Can Rooney remain calm?

[Waragainstsleep]

Looking forward to tonights game. Could be a very interesting one. The french are the closest to the spanish in amount of possession so far. Encouragingly, England are at the top of the goals-per-minute-of-possession stats. If we could only get some more possession....

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I have that feeling too.

Germany in the semis is not appealing though.

To quote German comic (actually very funny) Henning Wehn "England / Germany is always an important game. It's just that Germany usually has a more important game straight afterwards."

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

German comic (actually very funny)

International incidents are started with a lie like this. You need to be careful.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I have that feeling too.

Germany in the semis is not appealing though.

To whom?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

International incidents are started with a lie like this. You need to be careful.

Hey, we're humble about it.

Just don't mention the war.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

To whom?

To the english obviously. I bet the germans love playing us.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

To the english obviously. I bet the germans love playing us.

It's like the famous poker quote. "If you can't work out who the patsy is in the game, it's you."

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

To the english obviously. I bet the germans love playing us.

Didn't we win 4:1/4:2 in 2010? (1 English goal wasn't counted, although it should've been.)

England's World Cup ended in a mixture of humiliation and controversy as they were thrashed by Germany in Bloemfontein.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

To the english obviously. I bet the germans love playing us.

Of course we do!
I want a '96 revival...

Go England, go England - kick the Italians out!
(and I would even be happy for England winning the tournament - I just don't want to see Spain AGAIN)

[badidea]

Hmmm....does hell freeze??
We'll see....

[badidea]

Of course it doesn't!
Sorry England! Hello Italy!

[Spheric Harlot]

Penalty shootouts suck.