[Big Mac]

Hey Glenn, how's it going? I'll say that my assessment may not have been very substantive. The only real elaboration I can provide is, I don't have much experience with Hondas. I know they're dependable, but just from seeing them advertised I also have the view that they seem rather conventional to me. I'm sure there are models that would excite, but the general entry level at least doesn't really do much for me. So that was my view going in. I went to the Honda section with an open mind, and after sitting in one of the cars I felt that my assumptions were correct. Nice, but nothing special. Plus, I don't really consider Honda because they're popular with car thieves, and I go ballistic if anyone dares touch my car.

If you're a past Honda owner, my observations probably don't apply to you.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

People who're in the market for a Maser don't care about what the ADHD-riddled masses want, or what everyone else is driving. They only care about beauty and soul.

Which this car lacks in spades; instead relying on generic handsome lines.

As far as buying goes, Masers are in the supercar class... ...and 1,400 sales in a single year in that class is really pushing the boat out.

The Quattroporte is not a quantifiable supercar. It's in the higher-end of the executive sedan class, along with the S63 AMG, Panamera, and Aston Martin Rapide. The Aston Martin Rapide is the second slowest-selling in the class and sold 4,000 in 2010. Porsche haven't released numbers for the Panamera, but they stated in 2010 that they'd produce 8,000 for the North American market this year.

Well, some of your Morgans haven't had a redesign since Noah parked one in his ark.
And let's face it, the Landy Defender isn't exactly a new design.

They still make Morgans? Yes, good point on the Defender.

No it won't. It's a very US-ish design. Everyone here will simply buy a Cayenne or Range Rover instead.

Yes, I agree that it's a very US-ish design, but lately new Italian entrants to the market have been having a very difficult time gaining foothold here. Maserati just have more of a following in Europe than over here, especially in middle and eastern America.

All this "redesigned last week" doesn't really cut if for people with means over here. I know everything breaks or gets blown away every month in the US, but over here a lot of us live in buildings older than your country, and some of us live in buildings which were around when the year was still in triple digits. That's how we roll.

Yeah, and you're all driving around in Jag E-types and live in Anne Hathaway's cottage.
Britain is a modern capitalistic nation that likes its shiny new things just as much as everyone else.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

The Quattroporte is not a quantifiable supercar.

No, but for some reason it's in the supercar class as far as buyers who're in the market for one goes.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

It's in the higher-end of the executive sedan class, along with the S63 AMG, Panamera, and Aston Martin Rapide. The Aston Martin Rapide is the second slowest-selling in the class and sold 4,000 in 2010. Porsche haven't released numbers for the Panamera, but they stated in 2010 that they'd produce 8,000 for the North American market this year.

Ummm. The Rapide is in the supercar class too.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Yes, I agree that it's a very US-ish design, but lately new Italian entrants to the market have been having a very difficult time gaining foothold here. Maserati just have more of a following in Europe than over here, especially in middle and eastern America.

Yep, and the market for Masers is the Euro elite... ...only people who tend to remember that they exist.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Yeah, and you're all driving around in Jag E-types and live in Anne Hathaway's cottage.

A good percentage of the people I know live in houses built before your country was born. And everybody (not just in my circles - *everybody*) knows at least two people who own or have owned E-Types.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Britain is a modern capitalistic nation that likes its shiny new things just as much as everyone else.

My point was... ...peeps in Europe who're in the market for a Maser (a proper Maser, not that fugly SUV) tend to be elites, who don't give preference to things simply because they're new and shiny (like the proles tend to).

Elite would consider a Maser.
Non-elite forget they exist and instead go for a 5,7, S, or Audi.

[Athens]

I would be in a Honda right now if it was not for price. The Focus offered a lot more for less. My 24 year old Prelude is still kicking around and in many ways is still a better car then most of the new cars on the road lol

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Ummm. The Rapide is in the supercar class too.

Whaaaa? The Rapide is slower than the Quattroporte. It's barely as quick as a S500. That's not supercar status.

Yep, and the market for Masers is the Euro elite... ...only people who tend to remember that they exist.

Exactly, which is why they need some mildly-pleasing SUV that looks handsome, but nothing else. Sadly.

My point was... ...peeps in Europe who're in the market for a Maser (a proper Maser, not that fugly SUV) tend to be elites, who don't give preference to things simply because they're new and shiny (like the proles tend to).

Elite would consider a Maser.
Non-elite forget they exist and instead go for a 5,7, S, or Audi.

That's interesting. Here, people would sell their firstborn to have the shiniest, newest car. I think I like UKania.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I would be in a Honda right now if it was not for price. The Focus offered a lot more for less. My 24 year old Prelude is still kicking around and in many ways is still a better car then most of the new cars on the road lol

Hondas must cost a lot more in Canada. Here, the Focus is the most expensive in its class by a couple thousand dollars.

[Athens]

Base focus before ANYTHING is $15999
Base Civic before ANYTHING is $14999

But the second to add anything into it, the price scale changes, and the focus comes with more making it the better deal.

[Athens]

Ok when I got my 2012 Focus came with a lot more then the Civic at the time. The new 2012 Civics are much nicer to the 2011's.

[angelmb]

Supercar is e.g. the McLaren MP4-12C. The Quattroporte is a gray flannel suit. Period.

[Buckaroo]

The Smart car has some decent headroom.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Whaaaa? The Rapide is slower than the Quattroporte. It's barely as quick as a S500. That's not supercar status.

"Supercar" ain't all about speed (although 180 MPH ain't exactly slow). It's also about rarity and expense.
And the Rapide is faster than the Quattroporte.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

"Supercar" ain't all about speed (although 180 MPH ain't exactly slow). It's also about rarity and expense.
And the Rapide is faster than the Quattroporte.

In a scientific Top Gear drag race with the Quattroporte, Panamera, and Rapide, the Rapide was last, preceded by the Quattroporte, with the Panamera being quickest. You Englishfolk dispute Top Gear now?

[is not]

"Supercar" ain't all about speed. It's also about rarity and expense.

Who tough you that?

The Quattroporte is for the most committed Maserati enthusiast. Nothing more.

At the top end of ranges like this, there are buyers who’ll buy the most expensive and fastest models simply because they’re the most expensive and fastest. And if you think that the Quattroporte fits there , then you are a simpleton. Some people buy the sledgehammer, oh I mean, the S65 because they can, not only because its packed with almost as many toys as it has horses.

[is not]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Great, first we had Stevie and now we have Ray Charles.

I will remember to buy my next car with Active Blind Spot Assist

What about the rest?

[is not]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

The Smart car has some decent headroom.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

In a scientific Top Gear drag race with the Quattroporte, Panamera, and Rapide, the Rapide was last, preceded by the Quattroporte, with the Panamera being quickest. You Englishfolk dispute Top Gear now?

Yep. The Rapide is quicker than the Quattroporte.
5:34

Originally Posted by is not 

At the top end of ranges like this, there are buyers who’ll buy the most expensive and fastest models simply because they’re the most expensive and fastest. And if you think that the Quattroporte fits there , then you are a simpleton.

Perhaps this is the case in the US where everything is about the numbers. Not so in Europe, where taste and soul are the most important features.

[angelmb]

It's also about rarity and expense.

Exotic, not supercar.

Perhaps this is the case in the US where everything is about the numbers

Muscle.

IMO, 'supercar' is just a very subjective category way to positioning a car.

[Shaddim]

Yes, but the Quattroporte, like any other typical Mas, sounds like God's plumbing. It's brilliant. Add in the looks and it's no wonder that Jezza and the rest chose it over the other sports saloons.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Exotic, not supercar.

Muscle.

IMO, 'supercar' is just a very subjective category way to positioning a car.

Is an M5 a supercar? Is a CLS63? Is an Exige? It's a senseless moniker.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Muscle.

Fat.

[mattyb]

Merc, Ferrari, Aston, blah blah blah, stuck in traffic, 0 mph bollocks. I'll take one of these :

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Is an M5 a supercar? Is a CLS63? Is an Exige? It's a senseless moniker.

Ian Ward described it very well, IMO: "It must be very fast, with sporting handling to match, it should be sleek and eye-catching, and its price should be one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own." No executive saloon really matches that.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Ian Ward described it very well, IMO: "It must be very fast, with sporting handling to match, it should be sleek and eye-catching, and its price should be one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own." No executive saloon really matches that.

Almost all are subjective criteria. Is a Gallardo a "supercar"? Is a Bentley Brooklands? Is a GT-R? I know this is getting old, but in reality the lines have blurred from the heady days of the Ferrari F40 and McLaren F1, still the two greatest sports cars ever made, IMO.

Now we have super saloons, super coupés, hot hatches, sleeper sports, pure sports, and hypercars. The hypercars ($1M+ price tags) stand head and shoulders above the others, but any of the rest can be the best performing in different categories. In the case of the GT-R, for a "measly" $100k you get a super coupé beast that will pound anything short of a Koenigsegg into the ground. But is the GT-R a "supercar", many will say it definitely is not.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Ian Ward described it very well, IMO: "It must be very fast, with sporting handling to match, it should be sleek and eye-catching, and its price should be one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own." No executive saloon really matches that.

According to that ("a rarified amosphere of its own"), there can only be one supercar at a time. Since we know that there's more than one supercar available, the above statement must be utter crap.

And before you 'merkins (except Shad, who knows what he's talking about) continue to embarass yourselves, I only said that the QP was in the supercar class as far as buying it goes... ...I didn't say it actually is a supercar.
(Although with 180 MPH available and a Ferrari engine in it, it's faster than any Daytona or Miura. Are you going to tell me that the Daytona and Miura aren't supercars?)

[imitchellg5]

I agree. However, I think that the easiest way to define a car isn't actually by looking at the car itself, but by the cars that you'll see around it in comparison tests and the like. There have always been cars that will always be considered supercars, like the 458, the Gallardo Superleggera, 911 Turbo, etc. Thus when you see a GT-R in a comparison test with a 911 Turbo, Audi R8, and family, I think it's reasonable to consider the GT-R a supercar. Of course, people who can already afford a 911 Turbo or a Gallardo Superleggera will likely never even consider the GT-R a supercar, but they're biased.

All I'm saying is the Quattroporte doesn't fit into the supercar crowd particularly well. You wouldn't compare a Quattroporte to easy to define supercars like the 458, and it really is more comfortable with the AMG S-classes, Panamera, etc.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

(Although with 180 MPH available and a Ferrari engine in it, it's faster than any Daytona or Miura. Are you going to tell me that the Daytona and Miura aren't supercars?)

A 2011 Honda Civic Type-R is faster than a Muira

And no, a Civic will never be a supercar.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

A 2011 Honda Civic Type-R is faster than a Muira

2011 Honda Civic Type-R: 146 MPH.
Lamborghini Miura: 171 MPH.

Is this some kind of perception problem you have? I mean, should I be taking it easy on you because you have some kind of mental illness? Just tell the truth and I'll understand and give you some leeway. It's OK.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

All I'm saying is the Quattroporte doesn't fit into the supercar crowd particularly well.

Yes it does. Most of them spend their nights snuggled next to 360s, 430s, 458s and Murcis.

See, because you're American and thus only have four senses, you can only take speed into account. Numbers. As usual. I think it's probably to do with lacking that fifth sense, and making up for it by being ever-so-slightly autistic and going for the numbers every time. The buyers in the market for QPs buy on taste, and style, and Pavarottiness. And they put them next to their 'Rarris and Lambos. They fit into the supercar crowd very well.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

So I went with my brother to the 2011 LA Car Show on its last day, yesterday afternoon. My takeaways:......

3. In addition to the lack of headroom, I don't like that many of these cars have sharply diagonal windshields. It appeared like it would be very awkward driving them.

I had a 1994 Camaro Z-28. In addition to the raked windshield, the hood is raked as well. This applies to the Firebirds of the model as well. You can't see the front end of the car. It made parking a P.I.T.A I traded it in for a 2002 Impala. I should have kept it, it was paid off.


I thought I had a photo uploaded, but could not find it, but this one is close. You can the see the rake on the hood and windshield.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

you 'merkins

That has got to be intentional.

Please tell me that was intentional.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That has got to be intentional.

Please tell me that was intentional.

Allcaps

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

2011 Honda Civic Type-R: 146 MPH.
Lamborghini Miura: 171 MPH.

Is this some kind of perception problem you have? I mean, should I be taking it easy on you because you have some kind of mental illness? Just tell the truth and I'll understand and give you some leeway. It's OK.

You're so kind.

You'd actually drive a Miura to 171 mph? Didn't think so.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Yes it does. Most of them spend their nights snuggled next to 360s, 430s, 458s and Murcis.

See, because you're American and thus only have four senses, you can only take speed into account. Numbers. As usual. I think it's probably to do with lacking that fifth sense, and making up for it by being ever-so-slightly autistic and going for the numbers every time. The buyers in the market for QPs buy on taste, and style, and Pavarottiness. And they put them next to their 'Rarris and Lambos. They fit into the supercar crowd very well.

I don't care about numbers at all, but Americans do. It's like Camaro vs. Mustang. The automakers become so obsessed with horsepower and torques that they forget about the actual cars.

I guess I see a disconnect about what you're saying. You're saying that because people who buy supercars buy a Quattroporte that that makes the Quattroporte a supercar via proximity? Though to be honest, I don't know anybody who owns anything approaching supercar status, but I do know a Quattroporte owner, and it sits next to a BMW X5, which is definitely not a supercar.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You'd actually drive a Miura to 171 mph?

Of course I would. Wouldn't you?

Wait. No. I saw that pussy on Top Gear USA worrying about the Morgan. We don't worry about that stuff over here. Really.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Of course I would. Wouldn't you?

Wait. No. I saw that pussy on Top Gear USA worrying about the Morgan. We don't worry about that stuff over here. Really.

I don't watch Top Gear USA. They're posers.

I don't have what it takes to even touch a Miura.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I guess I see a disconnect about what you're saying. You're saying that because people who buy supercars buy a Quattroporte that that makes the Quattroporte a supercar via proximity?

I'm saying that the market for these things is the supercar market, at least over here. They're generally second/third cars for people with more expensive machinery in the garage. Hardly anyone buys one standalone (from new, at least).

Clarkson is sort of the QP entry-level buyer, where the market starts for new one, and we know he's usually got a Ferrari in the garage. People without the more expensive stuff already in their garage usually go for something less "grand" and more generic, like a BM or Benz.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I don't watch Top Gear USA. They're posers.

Agreed. Lame posers. Especially that fat one who tries to be the Clarkson.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Agreed. Lame posers. Especially that fat one who tries to be the Clarkson.

Top Gear UK only works because of the chemistry between the three presenters. It doesn't work with anyone else. I wish America would just succeed back to Britain so we could have Doctor Who and Top Gear at the same time as the UK.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Wait. No. I saw that pussy on Top Gear USA worrying about the Morgan.

You watch Top Gear USA? Wow. Of all the American imports you could spend time with, I never would have imagined you waste it on that miserable imitation. I think I saw a few minutes of one episode and vowed to never watch again. I just wish BBC America weren't so lame because it's hard to catch new episodes of the real show.

[imitchellg5]

We have BBC America in the house, but I just torrent all the TG UK episodes instead.

[Big Mac]

Yeah, I have to get back to doing that. Before Congress outlaws BT. I think the last new episode I saw was the Middle East Christmas special with the baby Stig.

Do the seasons come out on Blu-ray or DVD? I'd actually consider that option if they were priced reasonably and available here. Edit: They're on Amazon and cheap, awesome. I know what to get for Chanukah now.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, I have to get back to doing that. Before Congress outlaws BT. I think the last new episode I saw was the Middle East Christmas special with the baby Stig.

Do the seasons come out on Blu-ray or DVD? I'd actually consider that option if they were priced reasonably and available here. Edit: They're on Amazon and cheap, awesome. I know what to get for Chanukah now.

Yes, and you can get all of Clarkson's other discs too. They're all fun to watch, though not as good as TG itself.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You're so kind.

You'd actually drive a Miura to 171 mph? Didn't think so.

Give me the title to a clean Miura SV and I'll do it.


"Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name..."

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Yes, and you can get all of Clarkson's other discs too. They're all fun to watch, though not as good as TG itself.

I'm in. What else does he do?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You watch Top Gear USA? Wow. Of all the American imports you could spend time with, I never would have imagined you waste it on that miserable imitation.

I haven't got my systems set up properly at the moment, and it's the only thing I can get on BBC's iPlayer at the moment which I haven't already seen.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I agree. However, I think that the easiest way to define a car isn't actually by looking at the car itself, but by the cars that you'll see around it in comparison tests and the like. There have always been cars that will always be considered supercars, like the 458, the Gallardo Superleggera, 911 Turbo, etc. Thus when you see a GT-R in a comparison test with a 911 Turbo, Audi R8, and family, I think it's reasonable to consider the GT-R a supercar. Of course, people who can already afford a 911 Turbo or a Gallardo Superleggera will likely never even consider the GT-R a supercar, but they're biased.

All I'm saying is the Quattroporte doesn't fit into the supercar crowd particularly well. You wouldn't compare a Quattroporte to easy to define supercars like the 458, and it really is more comfortable with the AMG S-classes, Panamera, etc.

There's not much rarefied about a GT-R, except it's ass-kicking performance (and bone-crushing ride). It isn't gorgeous, merely somewhat handsome. It isn't difficult to buy, I can go down and buy one today at the Nissan shop ten miles from me. The same one has been in their showroom for 3 months. They aren't that pricey either, compared to a similarly performing Italian. They aren't much more than an Exige and the Lotus actually looks the "supercar" part. Frankly, I don't know where in the hell to classify it, but I will say it's the best BFYB auto in the world, and even with my mods I wouldn't want to race for pinks against one.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm in. What else does he do?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...kson&x=12&y=14

Mostly TG type stuff; drives lots of exotics, murderers crappy cars, makes fun of the government, etc..

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm in. What else does he do?

He's also got a few books out (which are basically a collection of his Sunday Times columns) which are hilarious. Not sure they'd translate to the US because there's a lot of Brit cultural reference in them.

Oooo. Here's a bunch of column articles online so you can check them out...
Jeremy Clarkson's columns - BBC Top Gear

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

There's not much rarefied about a GT-R, except it's ass-kicking performance (and bone-crushing ride). It isn't gorgeous, merely somewhat handsome. It isn't difficult to buy, I can go down and buy one today at the Nissan shop ten miles from me. The same one has been in their showroom for 3 months. They aren't that pricey either, compared to a similarly performing Italian. They aren't much more than an Exige and the Lotus actually looks the "supercar" part. Frankly, I don't know where in the hell to classify it, but I will say it's the best BFYB auto in the world, and even with my mods I wouldn't want to race for pinks against one.

Yes, it is difficult to classify it. It's not 911 Turbo rare, but it isn't common either. Though the 2012 model sadly raises the price quite a bit to over $100,000, it's still an insane performance bargain. And though it won't win any styling awards, it does have a fairly unique look about it that has supercar attitude, though not necessarily aesthetics.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, I have to get back to doing that. Before Congress outlaws BT. I think the last new episode I saw was the Middle East Christmas special with the baby Stig.

Do the seasons come out on Blu-ray or DVD? I'd actually consider that option if they were priced reasonably and available here. Edit: They're on Amazon and cheap, awesome. I know what to get for Chanukah now.

The only caveat with the Blu Ray or DVDs is that they're edited. The music is all changed, and most have the news segments cut out. I bought my friend two seasons for his birthday in May and we were disappointed with them.