[Juggler]

Do the 10.1.2 installer correctly updates applications that are not in the Applications folder (their original place)?

I like to keep my applications neatly organized in subfolders inside the Applications folder. I noticed that the 10.1 installer didn't update apps that weren't in their original place (and instead installed new copies).

Did Apple correct this annoyance with 10.1.2?

[blizzard]

No.

[Juggler]

Too bad Apple has not corrected this problem. I can not believe that it is too hard for the installer to search and update the existing Apps not in the Applications folder. Let's make some noise in Apple's feedback page so that they fix this.

[zerologic]

Or just leave the apps where they were to begin with and learn to use X as X and not 9.

[Jelle Monkmater]

Originally posted by zerologic:
<STRONG>Or just leave the apps where they were to begin with and learn to use X as X and not 9. </STRONG>

I doubt complete paranoia about doing anything out of the ordinary is the kind of experience Apple intended for X. Perhaps Apple should, as they did with that whole 'unsupported OpenGL' thing, simply state that applications must not be moved unless you like reinstalling.

I think it's wiser to alert Apple to this bug rather than to work around it.

[CharlesS]

You can use Pacifist to open up the 10.1.2 installer and update apps that are in non-standard locations.

Due to a bug in beta 3, you should not try to install the entire OS update with Pacifist. However, updating the apps will work fine.

[Juggler]

I agree that one should keep apps inside the Applications folder, but one should be free to further organize them using subfolders inside the Applications folder. See, in this way one could drag the Applications folder to the Dock in order to have well organized pop-up menus (when you ctrl-click the dock). Therefore the installer should be able to update apps that are nested inside the Applications folder in any arbitrary way.

(Of course one can keep a folder with aliases of the applications, which one can organize in any arbitrary hierarchy. But then one would have to worry about keeping this folder of aliases up to date when one installs new apps.)

[Cowdog]

I keep all the Apple installed apps as they were installed by Apple in the applications folder and have all my third party apps organized on a different drive. I decided to do this after noticing in the public beta that if you moved either sherlock or the system prefs out of the apps folder they wouldn't launch from a cmd f or other methods.

If you want to read why Apple does this open the terminal and type "man pax" pax is the install method they use and the has this absolute path limitation.

[C.J. Moof]

Same problem here. After first categorized apps into subfolders within Applications, then ran 10.1.2 updater, things are screwey. I moved mail.app to a subfolder, but now have a folder Applications/Mail.app which is a folder, that does nothing. Same thing with Image Capture- Mine is hosed, and I'm really missing it to get my digital camera cleared off before I leave for Christmas and take fresh pics....

This is BS. It's the computer's responsibility to conform to the way I want to work and have my apps organized, not the other way around. If I want to move mail.app to a subfolder, that should be permissible. It's the computer's job to deal with my choices. At minimum, it should politely tell me that if I move that, it might not be able to update it properly in the future.

As a mac user, that;s the expectation I have.

[edddeduck]

I agree OS X installers should search the Applications directory (only) but including folders for the applications b4 updating.

Cheers Edd

[3R1C]

I dont know if its "9 like" or "x like" but, if its definately not mac like. If moving apps from their default location will cause future problems, it SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by 3R1C:
<STRONG>I dont know if its "9 like" or "x like" but, if its definately not mac like. If moving apps from their default location will cause future problems, it SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.</STRONG>

Oh great. Windows "are you sure you want to move this? It might break things" error messages? No thanks.

[lookmark]

Originally posted by edddeduck:
<STRONG>I agree OS X installers should search the Applications directory (only) but including folders for the applications b4 updating.

Cheers Edd</STRONG>

Agreed. Let's keep the comments coming to Apple Feedback, folks.

[Agent69]

Sorry, I don't agree.

There is no point in rearranging things in the Applications folder. I also don't want the updater running around the hard disk and playing hide and seek with applications just because a few users wanted to move things around for no good reason.


Agent69

Moving on. Nothing to see here.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Agent69:
<STRONG>Sorry, I don't agree.

There is no point in rearranging things in the Applications folder. I also don't want the updater running around the hard disk and playing hide and seek with applications just because a few users wanted to move things around for no good reason.


Agent69

Moving on. Nothing to see here.</STRONG>

No good reason? So you don't like to have an Internet folder with your Internet apps in it (IE, Mail, etc.)? You like to have them all jumbled together in a disorganized mess?

This policy is the reason that I still follow my old Mac OS 9 policy of never storing anything in the Applications folder, but rather using that folder as a "Apple preinstalled apps" folder, and storing all third-party stuff elsewhere.

[Visnaut]

Originally posted by Agent69:
<STRONG>Sorry, I don't agree.

There is no point in rearranging things in the Applications folder. I also don't want the updater running around the hard disk and playing hide and seek with applications just because a few users wanted to move things around for no good reason.</STRONG>

And I politely disagree. They're my apps, and I'd like to give them a hierarchy which facilitates me using my own computer, instead of working within the constrictions of Apple's command-line installer.

At least apps that are sensitive to location should behave like System Preferences: "You can't move me. Neener-neener-neener!"

But alas, the sticking point here is not our directory layout habits, but how to deal with the problem. My question is, can we open up the packages of programs that were supposed to be updated, and drop in the files that Apple's updater created in the root of the Applications folder? Will this effectively do what the updater intended to do?

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Visnaut:
<STRONG>At least apps that are sensitive to location should behave like System Preferences: "You can't move me. Neener-neener-neener!"</STRONG>

To which my response would be: sudo mv. Neener-neener-neener!

Really, the solution to this is amazingly simple. The LSApplications file keeps track of all the apps on your system, and I'm sure it includes information relating to where they are stored. Apple knows the format of their own LSApplications file - all they would have to do is look up their apps in that file.

Of course, this would require making the Installer.app do something instead of just being a wrapper around pax...

[curmi]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
<STRONG>Really, the solution to this is amazingly simple. The LSApplications file keeps track of all the apps on your system, and I'm sure it includes information relating to where they are stored. Apple knows the format of their own LSApplications file - all they would have to do is look up their apps in that file.

Of course, this would require making the Installer.app do something instead of just being a wrapper around pax...</STRONG>

This is exactly it. We aren't using Windows here. We're not even using Linux. An installer/updater should not need to "search" the harddrive for the application - this is like Windows' attempt at the "alias" function with "shortcuts" (an embarassing technical solution). And we should be free to move Applications anywhere - not just within the Applications directory.

The computer is meant to work for us, not the other way around. And OSX can already track moving of applications - make an alias, and move the application it points to. The alias still works.

In fact, there is a simple solution right there. The installer, in it's preferences for each application, can create an alias to the application. When it comes to updating/removing, the alias tells it where the application is.

Whatever the method, OSX can do something better than this. And to suggest that you shouldn't move Applications is bloody ridiculous. Do you guys have any idea what computers are capable of?

[edddeduck]

I will expand on my previous post I do not want the installer running around my HD's like a headless chicken but not being able to sort out the apps by using folders is an insane solution the apple updaters should do the following..

Look in the standard place
if (program found)
{update program}
else
{depth search inside applications folder
if (program found)
{update program}
else
{install program in original position (or promt user do you want to install ??? app y/n usefull for IE or iTunes)}
}

This make perfect sense as apps should only be in the apps folder but not being able so organize them is silly as in OS 9 I had Internet apps, Web design apps etc I don't want to have to leave the apple default apps out of this organization. Oh the bit in italics is an optional feature. Best way to test this is if windows users had to leave all default apps in the same place what would we do laugh...... So this is a HUI hole which needs fixing IMHO.

Cheers Edd

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by edddeduck:
<STRONG>I will expand on my previous post I do not want the installer running around my HD's like a headless chicken but not being able to sort out the apps by using folders is an insane solution the apple updaters should do the following..

Look in the standard place
if (program found)
{update program}
else
{depth search inside applications folder
if (program found)
{update program}
else
{install program in original position (or promt user do you want to install ??? app y/n usefull for IE or iTunes)}
}

This make perfect sense as apps should only be in the apps folder but not being able so organize them is silly as in OS 9 I had Internet apps, Web design apps etc I don't want to have to leave the apple default apps out of this organization. Oh the bit in italics is an optional feature. Best way to test this is if windows users had to leave all default apps in the same place what would we do laugh...... So this is a HUI hole which needs fixing IMHO.

Cheers Edd</STRONG>

Did you read my suggestion of simply looking in LSApplications to see where the app is?

But you're right in one aspect - if the installer can't find an app, it should at least ask where the thing is instead of creating a folder with the changed files and making the user move them all manually.

[curmi]

Originally posted by edddeduck:
<STRONG>I will expand on my previous post I do not want the installer running around my HD's like a headless chicken but not being able to sort out the apps by using folders is an insane solution the apple updaters should do the following..

Look in the standard place
if (program found)
{update program}
else
{depth search inside applications folder
if (program found)
{update program}
else
{install program in original position (or promt user do you want to install ??? app y/n usefull for IE or iTunes)}
}

This make perfect sense as apps should only be in the apps folder but not being able so organize them is silly as in OS 9 I had Internet apps, Web design apps etc I don't want to have to leave the apple default apps out of this organization. Oh the bit in italics is an optional feature. Best way to test this is if windows users had to leave all default apps in the same place what would we do laugh...... So this is a HUI hole which needs fixing IMHO.

Cheers Edd</STRONG>

As I said, the installer does not need to "search" at all! This is 2001, not 1995.

[Rampico]

Originally posted by Juggler:
<STRONG>See, in this way one could drag the Applications folder to the Dock in order to have well organized pop-up menus (when you ctrl-click the dock). Therefore the installer should be able to update apps that are nested inside the Applications folder in any arbitrary way.)</STRONG>

Check out a little dockling called Snard. I think it is just what you are looking for.

[edddeduck]

As I said, the installer does not need to "search" at all! This is 2001, not 1995.

Yes it has to search something even if this is searching

The LSApplications file keeps track of all the apps on your system

Basically take my previous post remove search and put search LSApplications File instead thats it...

Cheers Edd

[edit] Quote tags not working

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: edddeduck ]