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"Spring Loaded" (Page 2)
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Thorzdad
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Apr 27, 2021, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The vast majority of designers I know all work on a MacBook with an external monitor.
That's interesting. The designers I know (including myself) are all using various flavors of iMacs (especially the 27" model)

Graphic design is still pretty much a no-go on an iPad, though, especially print design. There are too many pieces missing in the iPad environment (font collections, color management, etc.) for it to even be considered a viable tool for final art.
     
ort888
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Apr 27, 2021, 11:24 AM
 
Well, I'm probably speaking too broadly. The truth is that I don't know that many designers to call a group of them a vast majority... All of them at my current company work on laptops. All the freelancers I know also use laptops.

We used to use iMacs at my old place of employment. I started on Powermacs back in the day, switched over to iMacs around 2006ish... used various iMacs until about 4 years ago when I switched over to a MacBook.

The bottom line is this... any Mac Apple sells is more than capable enough for a professional designer to use as their daily machine. That's been true for at least 10-15 years.

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Thorzdad
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Apr 27, 2021, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The bottom line is this... any Mac Apple sells is more than capable enough for a professional designer to use as their daily machine. That's been true for at least 10-15 years.
Totally agree!
Even my trusty late-2009 iMac is still a very capable daily worker, using Photoshop and Illustrator without a hitch.
     
MacNNFamous
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Apr 27, 2021, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Illustrations. And yes, both, my friend and my wife get paid for it. (Although for my wife it is more of a skill she uses a few times a year in her current job, which is in controlling.) My friend bought an iPad Pro just for that, it replaced a Surface (I think the regular one, not the laptop-y one) and a “proper” Wacom tablet. For both the preferred software is ProCreate. That is seriously a steal and UI is genius and it costs next to nothing. My friend made me my book cover on the iPad (for essentially free), for instance.

I don't think it is bizarre. My wife's iPad is even a first-gen iPad, and it works just fine. Although I am sure she'd benefit from the 120 Hz/240 Hz refresh rates of screen/touch sensor of the newer iPads. Makes a big difference for hand writing, too.

Even though I am not doing illustrations, just writing, I use my iPad Pro daily, it allowed me to go paperless. My new book is edited entirely on the iPad, and I love it.

Why is that bizarre? People like to choose the best tool for the job, and an iPad allows you direct manipulation of the image. That is better than the Wacom tablets of yore where you'd have to separate the movement of pen and mouse cursor/virtual brush. Yes, you can buy a Wacom tablet with a screen, but they are expensive, much more expensive than an iPad Pro (although the new ones are getting there). The 120 Hz/240 Hz thing is a complete game changer in favor of the iPad, too.

But the biggest draw is new software like ProCreate. There are others, less well-known ones if you are into drawing manga. ProCreate looks simple, but is surprisingly deep and the UI is super efficient. Once you get to know it, I think few want to go back to a “proper” computer.
I'm in industrial design, where we design products. All of use use Cintiqs, where the pen is on the image directly, like an iPad, but with professional, desktop software and without the gimmicky/problem ridden multi touch interface; your fingers/palms/hands don't affect anything, only the stylus does. Everyone in my school used Cintiqs. Everyone at my first job used cintiqs. Everyone at my 2nd job used cintiqs. And everyone at my current job uses cintiqs, with the exception of a boomer in the decal department that still uses a wacom tablet because she hates change.

All of the pro graphic designers I've worked with also use desktops/laptops as well.

I don't know a ton of illustration majors, but all of them use cintiqs as well. I haven't heard of a single professional designer in my circle using an iPad to create anything, professionally. I'm not even sure how that would work, integrating with file servers, revs, indesign documents, fonts, vector logos, etc. Seems like a giant PITA that would require tons of work arounds.
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 27, 2021, 03:40 PM
 
My work shelled out for Mac Pros until the garbage can price freaked them out, and they switched to imacs. The imac was ok but seemed more crash-prone than the macpros were. I just retired a 2010 mac pro that was a ROCK. This imac has always been fiddly.

When they realized they could get us to work from home more (and that WFH wasn't bad) they decided the next upgrade would be a laptop so we could lug it back and forth (instead of previous policy of old machines being sent home for emergency use). I have a shiny macbook pro in the other room I hate. It crashes randomly, has an unusable keyboard... the only way I can see to use it would be an external keyboard, monitor, etc, in which case why not just have a mac mini?

/old
     
MacNNFamous
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Apr 27, 2021, 04:11 PM
 
Yeah I wanna know how this hybrid workspace is going to work out... right now we all have giant desktops, multiple screens, and cintiqs. Not portable at all.
     
OreoCookie
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Apr 27, 2021, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I'm in industrial design, where we design products. All of use use Cintiqs, where the pen is on the image directly, like an iPad, […]
Cintiqs are expensive and in many respects just not as good as the touch sensors of the iPad Pros. You can‘t handle them like an iPad or a piece of paper as they are too heavy. If you grew up drawing on paper like my wife and my friend have, then this is a big deal and a huge plus for the iPad. One of the biggest minuses they told me (and that Wacom‘s tablets and the Cintiq doesn‘t do much better) is the feel of the pen, it feels differently than pencils (although the iPad seems to be doing a better job). But if you want to draw with special felt tip pens, and you want to replicate the feel, you seem to be out of luck.

Of course, for other things the screen size is a limit, I reckon some people in some professions would want and need more screen estate.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
[…] but with professional, desktop software and without the gimmicky/problem ridden multi touch interface; your fingers/palms/hands don't affect anything, only the stylus does.
That sounds like preconception rather than actual experience to me. As far as I can tell, there is a plethora of professional illustration apps on the iPad, including software for very specific niches. That includes plenty of software from Adobe, although as far as I can tell, Adobe software is not the gold standard on iOS. The touch UIs are anything but unprofessional or gimmicky and works great. I use my iPad for writing and editing for several hours a day, and I have none of the problems you describe, I can‘t remember the last time my fingers interfered with pen input. I am not a user of ProCreate, but I have dabbled a bit. I love ProCreate‘s solution to keep oft-used things like color palette next to the resting hand so that you can quickly change brushes and such, it is ingenious. I wish that my main piece of productivity software (GoodReader) took a few cues from ProCreate. Both of them switched away from Adobe and were happy about that (as in that was a plus both specifically mentioned and they were glad). The software they use is the new default in their circles and indeed used by other artists (including those that make money off of it) :shrug:
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I don't know a ton of illustration majors, but all of them use cintiqs as well. I haven't heard of a single professional designer in my circle using an iPad to create anything, professionally. I'm not even sure how that would work, integrating with file servers, revs, indesign documents, fonts, vector logos, etc. Seems like a giant PITA that would require tons of work arounds.
Obviously I am not the right person to comment on these things, my sample size is N = 2 and I don‘t know how well iPads integrate with larger groups. My wife and my friend work by themselves, and they don‘t have to worry about that. I don‘t think they are that unusual, though, and it seems the next generation is growing up on iPads rather than Adobe’s Creative Suite. ProCreate is a professional piece of software that anyone can afford.
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Thorzdad
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Apr 27, 2021, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I have a shiny macbook pro in the other room I hate. It crashes randomly, has an unusable keyboard... the only way I can see to use it would be an external keyboard, monitor, etc, in which case why not just have a mac mini?
/old
Is your MBP covered by Apple’s keyboard recall? My wife’s MBP had a crap keyboard, so we took it in and they replaced the entire top panel, complete with a new, improved keyboard. Thing types like properly-engineered butter now. Really nice.
     
MacNNFamous
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Apr 27, 2021, 10:13 PM
 
Yeah, I'm not arguing, I'm just saying I know a lot of designers and have been in the industry for over a decade, nobody is using iPads for pro work. For typing a book? Sure. For doing a cute book cover? Okay.

For converting 3d data to an isometic vector image and compiling them all into a service manual? Nope.
For making beautiful, printable style guides for companies literature and visual brand language guidelines? Not happening.
For cad modeling products? Maybe some super basic bitch stuff, but even then you're limited.
For rendering cad models? Nope.
For sending CAD to 3d printers? Nope.

It cannot even connect to a file server, can it? So how can it possibly be professional?
     
OreoCookie
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Apr 27, 2021, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Yeah, I'm not arguing, I'm just saying I know a lot of designers and have been in the industry for over a decade, nobody is using iPads for pro work.
Just reading this thread, it seems there is much larger diversity amongst graphics designers. One poster writes “all designers I know are using iMacs” while another writes “all designers I know are using laptops”.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
For typing a book? Sure. For doing a cute book cover? Okay.
Just for clarification: I am the one writing the book. I write it on my Mac, but I do all the editing (with handwritten annotations) on my iPad. I just added that to tell you that my opinions are based on many hours of usage per week (e. g. that unwanted touch input is a non-issue), but to clarify that I’m not doing any illustrations myself.

My friend who did the cover is, apart from being a full-time math professor, also freelancing as a graphic designer (as in she is getting paid). If you think that my cover was done by “someone who thinks she can draw”, that’s the wrong idea. Her niche is scientific illustrations, and she is being hired by research institutes and research collaborations. It has become a steady side income for her. And like I said, she had (still has?) a Cintiq and had a Surface, so it is not as if she doesn’t know what she is missing.

My wife has won tons of prizes for her drawings (mostly manga) when she was a child. But wasn’t willing to make that her profession (which is cut throat for men, and 10x worse for women in Japan). She had a Wacom, which she literally drew to death. So we went computer shopping, and she could have had a Cintiq, a Surface, whatever. She chose an iPad Pro. Both of them love to draw on paper, and I think this is why they prefer iPads. One of my thank yous for the cover was a set of special pens (about $3 each) that comic and manga artists love. (My wife helped me, obviously.) So it seems they are just in a different niche than you.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
So how can it possibly be professional?
Because people are using them to make money with them. At least that’s my definition of a professional, you do an activity and get money for it in exchange.

For example, if you have a small booth in your shop taking head shots for passports, then you are a professional photographer. It doesn’t mean you are any good, it just means you are making money with it. So there are “amateurs” (which I take to mean someone who does not get an income from an activity) who are better than many professionals.

Now I totally get that for many use cases e. g. just the limited screen estate alone disqualifies iPads. But not everybody needs/wants that. Maybe the number of people who find that iPads are a good tool for them is small, I don’t know, but I think it is steadily growing. And I think you are underestimating the maturity of existing software for certain use cases.
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Spheric Harlot
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Apr 28, 2021, 07:47 AM
 
“iPads are toys and consumption devices.”

“Professionals use them to make money.”

“<arbitrary list of completely random needs that almost no professional outside poster’s tiny industry niche ever requires>“

Yes, folks, it’s 2012 all over again.

Next up: why Windows 95 rules over the competition. Join us tomorrow at eight for the showdown of the century: PC Jr. workhorse vs. artsy-fartsy Apple IIe!
     
Thorzdad
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Apr 28, 2021, 07:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Yeah, I'm not arguing, I'm just saying I know a lot of designers and have been in the industry for over a decade, nobody is using iPads for pro work. For typing a book? Sure. For doing a cute book cover? Okay.

For converting 3d data to an isometic vector image and compiling them all into a service manual? Nope.
For making beautiful, printable style guides for companies literature and visual brand language guidelines? Not happening.
For cad modeling products? Maybe some super basic bitch stuff, but even then you're limited.
For rendering cad models? Nope.
For sending CAD to 3d printers? Nope.

It cannot even connect to a file server, can it? So how can it possibly be professional?
You're pretty obviously very narrowly defining design as strictly technical/industrial design, and belittling anything else. "Cute" book covers? Really? You sound a whole lot like a windows IT guy, back in the day, talking smack about the couple of "Playskool" Macs he has to support.

Yeah, you can't do CAD on an iPad. No one here said you could. You can definitely do high-quality, print-ready, professional illustration on iPads, and many, many people do so every day. Not everyone needs to connect to a file server.
     
MacNNFamous
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Apr 28, 2021, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Because people are using them to make money with them. At least that’s my definition of a professional, you do an activity and get money for it in exchange.
Professional = full time gig, 40 hours a week, doing work at or for giant companies.

If it's side hustle done in your free time, that isn't really pro, imho.

But hey don't listen to me, only a designer who went to school for design and knows a shit ton of designers, and has worked for Harley Davidson, Milwaukee Tool, Bosch, Briggs and Stratton, John Deere, Ariens, Gravely, SC Johnson, Trek, Volvo, Kimberly Clark, Rayovac, Fiskars, Empire Level, AO Smith, Herman Miller, Masterlock, Schick, and a shit ton of others.
     
MacNNFamous
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Apr 28, 2021, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
You're pretty obviously very narrowly defining design as strictly technical/industrial design, and belittling anything else.
Yup. I am.

I went to school with painters, illustrators, print makers, & graphic designers, etc. All that shit is easy compared to what I do. lol. It's literally 2 dimensional design with no functional requirements other than legibility/readability, versus 3 dimensions, tooling requirements, HMI/Ergo, complex surfacing, knowledge of materials, textures, animations, renderings, the list goes on and on but the complexity and integration with engineering alone is far beyond what any graphic designer has to deal with.

I'll also belittle sneaker designers, since they can't draw in perspective, so they just do everything as a profile sketch and send it off to china to have them figure it out
     
ort888
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Apr 28, 2021, 11:58 AM
 
You must be a lot of fun at parties.

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MacNNFamous
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Apr 28, 2021, 12:11 PM
 
Most def!
     
OreoCookie
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Apr 28, 2021, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Professional = full time gig, 40 hours a week, doing work at or for giant companies.

If it's side hustle done in your free time, that isn't really pro, imho.

But hey don't listen to me, only a designer who went to school for design and knows a shit ton of designers, and has worked for Harley Davidson, Milwaukee Tool, Bosch, Briggs and Stratton, John Deere, Ariens, Gravely, SC Johnson, Trek, Volvo, Kimberly Clark, Rayovac, Fiskars, Empire Level, AO Smith, Herman Miller, Masterlock, Schick, and a shit ton of others.
My wife has a Master’s degree in visual design and has worked for several years in a mid-sized design shop. You should not jump to conclusions about others. We are not doubting your background and experience. But you shouldn’t dismiss the experience of others, just because their experiences differ from yours.

Just as an aside, having no formal education in design or working part-time is quite common in some areas of the design business. My cousin was a pro photographer, camera man and director. He did product shots and commercials for Mercedes and other car companies, produced for TV channels like NHK and was a brand ambassador for a camera manufacturer. He didn’t even finish high school. And plenty of freelance designers I know don’t work 40 hours, e. g. because they have kids.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Apr 28, 2021 at 11:41 PM. )
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Spheric Harlot
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Apr 29, 2021, 06:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You should not jump to conclusions about others. […] you shouldn’t dismiss the experience of others, just because their experiences differ from yours.
Oreo, meet Rob, aka Ca$h.

Rob, meet Oreo — he's new here.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 29, 2021, 07:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Professional = full time gig, 40 hours a week, doing work at or for giant companies.
Nope. None of that is a requirement to be a professional.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Apr 30, 2021, 11:37 AM
 
16GB unified RAM, 2TB SSD, Magic Keyboard with Touch ID and Numeric Keypad, magic mouse, and Final Cut pro: $2,828.99 or $235.74/mo. Add Track pad?
45/47
     
ort888
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Apr 30, 2021, 01:09 PM
 
Hmm, they still don't have the Touch ID keyboard available separately... but reading between the lines on the BTO pricing, it looks like they will be priced the same as the current Apple Bluetooth keyboards.

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Spheric Harlot
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Apr 30, 2021, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
16GB unified RAM, 2TB SSD, Magic Keyboard with Touch ID and Numeric Keypad, magic mouse, and Final Cut pro: $2,828.99 or $235.74/mo. Add Track pad?
Trackpad only since 2010. Never again a mouse.
     
ort888
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Apr 30, 2021, 03:54 PM
 
Got my airtag. Pretty snazzy... the little proximity detector on the phone with an actual arrow is really cool. I'll be getting more of these eventually. It's not super exciting, but I've never had a Tile or anything similar, so this is kinda new to me.

Unfortunately 3rd party keychains aren't really available and I don't like Apple's $29 version. Into the drawer with you until a decent keychain is cheap and available to ship. Maybe later I'll hide it on one of my kids and ask him to go hide and blow his mind when I immediatly find him every time.

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ort888
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Apr 30, 2021, 07:07 PM
 
I don't really give two poops, but I have to say... the Airtag is the cheapest feeling Apple product I've touched in a long time. It feels flimsy and squishy and kinda looks cheap. The metal back has kind of a sharp unpleasant feel to the edge of it. Like it has a sticker on it you can't quite get off.

From the front, it looks exactly like a cheap pin-on novelty button. Like the kind you would buy at a comic book store for a dollar to put on your backpack or whatever.

That said, I'd much rather get a $29 Airtag that feels like this and has a replaceable battery than whatever Apple's worst design tendencies would have produced... probably a perfect small sealed circle without a replaceable battery that costs $99 or something silly like that...

Maybe next year we're going to get the $129 Airtag Pro with Qi charging.
( Last edited by ort888; Apr 30, 2021 at 08:42 PM. )

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May 1, 2021, 03:31 PM
 
I’m tempted to pick up a few to try sticking in my bike and/or kids backpacks.
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Waragainstsleep
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May 1, 2021, 05:10 PM
 
I wondered if they might be handy for putting in the car to remember where you parked. Not that I forget mine but people do.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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May 1, 2021, 05:45 PM
 
The people I know with this problem take a photo.
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 1, 2021, 06:42 PM
 
My iPhone automatically remembers where I parked.
     
ghporter
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May 1, 2021, 06:48 PM
 
Mine too. Now I don't always remember to refer to my phone when I head out to the parking lot, so that's on me...

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ShortcutToMoncton
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May 2, 2021, 12:55 PM
 
Yeah, exactly. Maps already remembers your car park location. But Airtag could be useful if it gets stolen and it’s not a connected car......bit of a long shot though
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andi*pandi
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May 2, 2021, 03:37 PM
 
maps knows where you park, without dropping a pin etc? good to know.
     
ghporter
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May 2, 2021, 04:09 PM
 
When the phone stops being paired by Bluetooth, Maps remembers that location. There’s an option in Maps’ Settings, supposedly at the bottom of the list - I don’t see it at the moment because I’m on my sofa and not in my car.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
andi*pandi
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May 2, 2021, 08:24 PM
 
probably requires the car to have bluetooth then.
     
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May 6, 2021, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I have to agree here. I can’t say I’m happy about it, but I’m sure a lot of new Macs will wind up as tech trash - like inkjet printers whose ink replacements are more costly than a new printer.

Unless Apple has built these machines to be future proof enough that they won’t feel obsolete in just a couple of years, this looks bad for the green community.
The disposability of tech is something I have a special hatred for. I try to reuse every single computer I have. I give old laptops to people who need them. My Surface Pro 3 needs a new battery, and I am dreading opening it. I've had experience attempting it - I've had to pull SSDs from SP3s for customers back when I worked in retail - and it's not an easy task. I bought iFixit's warmer thingies to make it easier, but have been putting it off since before we moved...

When I worked on a developing product at Microsoft, I raised the concern of the disposability of the product. The response was "we know and we know people care" but of course that changed nothing about the actual product.
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shifuimam
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May 6, 2021, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Oreo, meet Rob, aka Ca$h.

Rob, meet Oreo — he's new here.
Wasn't he permabanned like a decade ago?
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
 
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