[willed]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5198150.stm

Apparently there are too many obese people in the UK who 'need' operations for the NHS to deal with. I think it's disgusting that they get operations on the NHS at all (a service provided entirely by the government via taxpayers), when they could just eat less and move more, instead of grazing their way through life with a spoon in one hand and a TV remote in the other...
but on the other hand I feel that smokers should still be treated for lung cancer and, say, extreme sports fans should still be treated for what some might call 'self inflicted' injuries... Is there any difference between these and fat people? Logically it seems that the system ought to treat them.

[JoshuaZ]

Medical discrimination is a bad thing. Preventative measures should be taken by the medical community to urge people to eat less. Obesity is a major problem in every western nation. Its burden on the medical community will only grow as time goes on.

[Y3a]

We can at least hope that MOST of the obese folks work in the food industry.

Eating too much food because of frustration, and falling asleep on the couch after they are done eating for a moment... It all leads to being large. I take public transportation (MetroRail in DC) and I am amazed of the number of overweight who ride.

I still think that the fatties ARE RESPONSIBLE for their own health, and inability to stop putting food in their mouths!

[Kr0nos]

Must be all those deep-fried Mars™ bars.

Anyway, the structural availability of high-calorie and fast-foods doesn't really help the situation. There have been a fair amount of studies now which clearly show that (over) eating is one of the most prevalent ways that people deal with their every day life frustrations and anxieties.

Groceries which are laden with sugar, glutamate and starch seem to be a lot cheaper and more readily available than healthy and nutritional foods.

I agree that people should be responsible for what they put in their body, but this realization will not make the problem go away. As long as we live in a 'quick-fix' culture in which people lead generally 'unhealthy' and psychologically over-burdened life-styles, we'll see the number of obese people go up.

[Salty]

I imagine far more money is wasted on treating people for cancer they gave themselves with smokes than things dealing directly with people being fat. And as far as simply eating less and moving more. Do you have any idea how tough it can be to lose weight? I've lost a good deal of weight and I've had to literally work my ass off to do it! I'm in the best shape of my life, and I had no clue how to get this way till I had a kind room mate who actually showed me how instead of making fun of me for being fat.
Skinny people who think fat people need to just be more like them are stupid, they should try thinking more like us smart people. I have several skinny friends who are no where near as physically active as I am.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally Posted by Salty

I imagine far more money is wasted on treating people for cancer they gave themselves with smokes than things dealing directly with people being fat. And as far as simply eating less and moving more. Do you have any idea how tough it can be to lose weight? I've lost a good deal of weight and I've had to literally work my ass off to do it! I'm in the best shape of my life, and I had no clue how to get this way till I had a kind room mate who actually showed me how instead of making fun of me for being fat.
Skinny people who think fat people need to just be more like them are stupid, they should try thinking more like us smart people. I have several skinny friends who are no where near as physically active as I am.

You just dislike it because you were (are?) overweight at one point. There are those, albeit in smaller numbers, that get lung/throat/esophageal cancer without smoking. Do you have any idea how tough it can be to quit? During some research a while back, I had opportunity to talk to some people who said it was harder than quitting heroin.

Many people choose to over-eat and wind up with a problem similar to those who smoke and end up with a problem. You happen to feel more sympathy for obese people just because you were in a similar situation. Perhaps you've known someone with cancer so my remark may be inappropriate, but it seems a damn fooled notion to suggest that money is wasted on treating those with cancer - even those who may have gotten it from smoking. Lung cancer is the least funded of all cancer research.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty

I imagine far more money is wasted on treating people for cancer they gave themselves with smokes than things dealing directly with people being fat.

The NHS is actually partially funded by smokers. It costs something like £2bn to treat smoking-related illnesses, but tax income on fags is something like £8bn. Without this tax take, the NHS would collapse.

But, back to fat folks. There can be instances where someone obese needs to slim in order to be able to undergo the surgery, so this has to be factored in. However, this government has been selling school playing fields to housing developers and banning competitive sports at schools (so the kids who're crap at sports don't "feel bad"). So what do they expect?

[Seb G]

Originally Posted by Y3a

I still think that the fatties ARE RESPONSIBLE for their own health, and inability to stop putting food in their mouths!

You can't just stop putting food into your mouth. You can't just quit smoking or drinking. Some people manage, some don't, and those need help. Any public health system should provide funding to help those people who seek help, and are determined to change their lifestyle accordingly.

[TETENAL]

I have no problem with regulating taxes on unhealthy behavior. Beats forbidding stuff all the time. If you do something dangerous like smoking, then take responsibility for it. Neither do I mind the regulating taxes on alcohol, and if obesity became a major problem, I would favour taxes and high-calorie food as well.

Originally Posted by Doofy

this government has been […] banning competitive sports at schools (so the kids who're crap at sports don't "feel bad").

If that were true, I would have to laugh at your government. One can overdo political correctness.

[ghporter]

Most morbidly obese people are far from "willfully" obese. It's far more common for such people to be horribly concerned about their weight and unable to do anything effective about it. Whether this is due to metabolic or emotional issues, the fact is that nobody gets really morbidly obese just because they love to eat. That makes it a health problem that they cannot control and thus a medical issue. Making fun of hugely obese people is just mean.

Note that I am NOT morbidly obese and never have been, though losing about 20 pounds would not hurt me in the least.

[Cody Dawg]

I disagree that morbidly obese people are not at least somewhat willfully obese.

Seriously.

I see some of these people riding around in carts at the grocery store - HUGE - and watch what they buy. Sugar soda pop, cookies, starches, carbs.



Here's the deal ghporter for some of these morbidly obese people who do not have diabetes (it is ruled out):

These morbidly obese people are getting a surgery so that their stomachs are stapled shut or reduced so that they cannot eat as much food...so they can lose weight.

So, it all boils down to self-control: Either they lose weight because they control their behavior or they lose weight because someone makes it physically harder for them to eat gargantuan amounts of food.

Either way, they are losing weight by not eating as much.

The fact is that if you don't eat food, you WILL lose weight.



Personally, I think that a lot of these morbidly obese people have diabetes. A little secret? I have diabetes. I gain weight easily as a result. I have to be very careful about what I eat or I will be very large. I haven't been very large because I control my weight through diet and exercise. But give me starches for a week and I step on the scale and I will have literally gained 10 pounds. It's the metabolism. I cannot eat any starches, very limited carbs, and have to stick to protein and vegetables. I eat tons of salads. If I want a snack I eat raw or blanched vegetables. Very limited fruit - even fruit is packed with sugar so I have to be careful. If I eat sugars I wake up with bad eyesight and poor circulation (tingling extremities) literally.

Anyone who looks at me would say, "Of course you don't have a weight problem." But I know differently.

Edited to say that I am sympathetic towards those who have weight problems and I believe that yes probably a lot of these people have diabetes. When you have diabetes you can feel like you are starving and hungry ALL of the time. You can eat a bowl of fruit or a chocolate bar and be hungry immediately afterwards.

Why?

Because your body is not metabolizing sugar. It is dumping sugar into your urine and in other ways. Your cells and body (and brain) are not getting the sugar that they need to function properly. They tell your brain that you're still sugar deficient. "Hey, we need sugar (metabolized into insultin) down here!" Blood sugar tells your brain that you are full or hungry, in part.

So diabetics feel hungry all of the time and for that I have sympathy and understand.

But, what diabetics and obese people need is education. They need to put mind over matter and what they may need, more than surgery, is education and counseling and sometimes medications to control diabetes. Many people who have diabetes (type II and there are two type IIs now) don't even know that they have it. They may have the beginning of type II diabetes and simply have insulin resistance but insulin resistance produces the same effect which is that the person feels hungry because the body isn't metabolizing sugar properly.

Give people education and counseling and check for thyroid problems and diabetes and put them on a diet. After a year or two THEN think about stomach surgery.

I just saw on CNN where 4 out of 10 gastric surgeries have very negative effects. People are risking permanent injury because they think a surgery is a quick fix and it's not.

Invest that $30K+ on education and counseling and medical attention FIRST and then consider surgery.

The truth is that surgery is not going to control diabetic hunger if the underlying cause is diabetes. They'll continue to eat starches and sugars because they are hungry all of the time, albeit in smaller amounts, and then they will be huge again.

The key IS self-control and education.

[ghporter]

Taking the step of looking into gastric bypass surgery is one way to gain control over their eating. Look at it like the flip side of anorexia; anorexics use not eating as a means to control their lives, while some obese people use eating for control. Eventually it can get out of hand for both types of people. Anorexics die of starvation, so they get plenty of attention and support, but what about the obese? People just make fun of them, consider them horrible, gluttonous people and so on.

Again, if the issue were simple, there wouldn't be such a problem.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Must be all those deep-fried Mars™ bars.

Anyway, the structural availability of high-calorie and fast-foods doesn't really help the situation. There have been a fair amount of studies now which clearly show that (over) eating is one of the most prevalent ways that people deal with their every day life frustrations and anxieties.

Groceries which are laden with sugar, glutamate and starch seem to be a lot cheaper and more readily available than healthy and nutritional foods.

I agree that people should be responsible for what they put in their body, but this realization will not make the problem go away. As long as we live in a 'quick-fix' culture in which people lead generally 'unhealthy' and psychologically over-burdened life-styles, we'll see the number of obese people go up.

I think this makes a lot of sense. I don't have anything to back this up and its a HUGE generalization on my part, but I gather that life for many people in western countries is more stressful now than it has been in recent times.

For instance two parents have to work in order to pay for a house and car and they often have to work nights and weekends on top of that. If you're stressed and tired at the grocery store at 1am when you have to get up again at 6 do you have time to go to the gym or are you gonna eat a candy bar to make yourself feel a little better? It's hard for me to look at a fat person eating and not think that its their own fault--but there are probably reasons that they do it whereby if I were in the same boat I might do the same thing.

[Y3a]

It IS a matter of SELF CONTROL. NO applogies for the fat, smokers or druggies/drunks.

I quit smoking cold turkey. I DO have an addictive personality. I know this at an intellectual level. I didn't HAVE to stop smoking all at once, but only a moment at a time.

I also pick up weight faster as I get older because my metabolism is slowing.
I know this too, and am currently on a reduced food regim.

I AM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, and I don't understand why others cannot.

The fatties need to understand when there clothes get tight, stop eating.
If you're depressed, get mad and walk or something to STAY AWAY FROM FOOD!

How can you live knowing you are a slave to food/drink/drugs???
Why should the addiction win?
WHY?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Y3a

It IS a matter of SELF CONTROL. NO applogies for the fat, smokers or druggies/drunks.

I quit smoking cold turkey. I DO have an addictive personality. I know this at an intellectual level. I didn't HAVE to stop smoking all at once, but only a moment at a time.

I also pick up weight faster as I get older because my metabolism is slowing.
I know this too, and am currently on a reduced food regim.

I AM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, and I don't understand why others cannot.

The fatties need to understand when there clothes get tight, stop eating.
If you're depressed, get mad and walk or something to STAY AWAY FROM FOOD!

How can you live knowing you are a slave to food/drink/drugs???
Why should the addiction win?
WHY?

Congratulations! I applaud your siezeing control of your life. Not everyone is able to do that. And not everyone who has the same problems you did is in a position to even notice that he's lost control. The same is true of people with weight issues, though they lack the public support smokers trying to quit have.

My point is that there are many ways to lose control, and while there are some people who can manage to wrestle themselves back into control, not all can. There are some smokers who CANNOT quit on their own-having quit yourself, are you able to say "it's something that anyone can do, no matter what?" I'll bet not.

My father quit by just stopping, but it took cancer to make my mother quit-and it was far too late by then. There are real and serious parallels in the problems of the obese. I'll admit that I could be far more careful about my eating and thus lose that 20 pounds I wouldn't miss, but I know more than one person who ARE asiduously careful about every single morsel and still can't lose weight, which causes all sorts of mental anguish, as well as the occasional dispairing plunge into depression.

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, I concede that for some people it may be the answer because if they don't eat then they will lose weight and if they lose weight then diabetes may be improved or symptoms disappear.

But they are getting surgery so that they stop putting food in their faces as frequently.

JUST STOP EATING AS MUCH is what I say. I am hungry ALL of the time! But I don't eat all of the time. I drink a glass of water or iced tea. I turn my attention elsewhere. It IS about self-control. For me I know that if I eat something starchy or sugary that the next day my eyesight is terrible.

I also don't buy the stuff that I would be tempted to eat - and I don't buy it for my children or family either. My kids snack on carrots and celery and cold cuts, no sugar and no starches (no potato chips, no deep fried foods, etc.) Yes, once in a while they have chips or have pizza (they're kids after all), but I never have lots of starchy junk food in the house. They are hungry so they grab apple slices or a banana or something healthy - something that is here at the house.

I do NOT think surgery is always the answer because of complications.

Also what I'm saying is that I believe that doctors know that NHS (in the UK) and Medicaid/Medicare or our governmental health system will pick up the cost of this expensive and risky surgery and I think that these doctors are making money and they are quick to prescribe surgery when in fact some of these people will be harmed and will remain uneducated and prone to getting big again.

See below where they are going to lose about 50 pounds and keep it off...well, if you're morbidly obese (think 250 pounds + or so) then 50 pounds, in my opinion, is not enough. They should lose 100 pounds or more in some instances. So the surgery improves their weight, but maybe not enough. And why not enough? Because if they are still eating sugar and starches they are only going to lose a certain amount.

I have a friend (whom I love to death) who is HUGE and her daughter is even larger. Her daughter is so big she won't go out of the house. She sits in the house and lives on welfare and food stamps and her parents' handouts (my friend). This woman's daughter has a 12-year old girl who weighs 150 pounds! Literally! What do they eat? Sugar and starches. Her granddaughter was at my home and I made sandwiches, fruit, sugar-free fruit drink (Crystal Light), and put out some baked Lays potato chips for the kids. This girl asked for "regular soda" and sat there and ate the entire bowl of potato chips.

This lady asked me how I control my weight and I told her and gave her a recipe book that I put together and do you know what? She said to me a few weeks later, "I just can't diet. I know I'm weak, but I just can't diet."

Meanwhile, her daughter has milked her parents so dry that they sold their home and moved into a trailer park because they were so in debt.

That family is really sick - over their lack of self-control and it's sad.

40% of weight-loss surgeries develop complications

Posted 7/23/2006

By Nanci Hellmich, USA TODAY

About 40% of patients who have weight-loss surgeries develop complications such as a hernia, abdominal cramping or pneumonia in the six months after the procedure, a study shows. Researchers say such complications often add thousands of dollars to patients' medical bills.
The study, which was conducted by government economists, is considered the first in-depth look at the medical costs incurred in the six months after bariatric surgeries, which have skyrocketed in recent years.

Gastric bypass, which creates a much smaller stomach, is performed on people who are very obese, 100 or more pounds over a healthy weight. It can be done laparoscopically or in open surgery. The average cost is $25,000.

The researchers examined insurance claims from 2,522 people who had weight-loss surgeries, most of them gastric bypass done with the open surgery. Among findings published in August's Medical Care:

• About 22% had a complication during their initial hospital stay.

• Overall, 18% returned to the hospital within six months with complications. They were either re-admitted, seen as an outpatient or treated in the emergency room.

• Other complications included leakage problems at the site of the connection between the stomach and the intestine.

• Those with complications had medical bills averaging $36,500, compared with about $25,000 for those with no complications.

• Those who had to be re-admitted to the hospital had medical bills averaging about $65,000.

Insurance companies vary widely in their coverage of gastric bypass or gastric banding, in which a band is used to create a small pouch at the top of the stomach. Under certain conditions, Medicare covers both surgeries.

"This is a complex surgery, and for the year after the surgery there will be potential complications that could be costly," says lead author William Encinosa, a senior economist with the Agency for health care Research and Quality.

People who have procedures such as gastric bypass lose and keep off an average of 44 to 66 pounds for up to 10 years, research shows.

Diabetes, hypertension, sleep apnea and high cholesterol are often eliminated or improve. Most diabetic patients get rid of the disease, which can cost $4,000 a year to treat, Encinosa says.

"The cost of these complications from the surgeries is high, but the cost of the diseases related to obesity is also high," agency director Carolyn Clancy says.

Harvey Sugerman, former president of the American Society for Bariatric Surgery, says, "The data used in the study is several years old, and now the vast majority of patients undergo the laparoscopic procedure, which reduces the rate of complications."

Edited to say that if my friend moved in with me and could only eat what I prepared then she WOULD lose weight and be healthier and happier. Guaranteed. When she stays with us she raves about my cooking and food and there is always a lot left over afterwards. No one goes hungry.

Some people associate "Diet" with "starvation." Well in my house a "diet" means maintaining a healthy food intake, that's all. It means unlimited amounts of steamed vegetables and lean proteins (fish, chicken, and yes beef) and snacks of fruits and whole grain starches. No one in my house goes hungry, ever. I'm hungry all of the time, but I know it's the metabolism and blood sugar. I have to ignore it or I'd have to take medication to make the metabolism work better. I choose to ignore it and modify my life in other ways and put off drugs and chemicals for as long as I am able.

[Hawkeye_a]

If it's cosmetic changes there's after, as opposed to a legitimate life threatening ailment, they aught to be paying for it out of their own pockets (might help them stop spending on sugar and fats). i dont want to pay taxes so that someone who couldnt live in moderation can have their cake and eat it too.

As far as smoking and sport inflicted injuries....
1. As disgusting as smoking is...it's only in the last 5-10 years that we have become aware of the harms of smoking....maybe the governments aught to make the profitsgenerated by selling tabacoo to treat people with cancer caused by smoking ?

2. Sports inflicted injuries...... hit and miss. no one goes in with the intent to cause bodily harm.... in fact people play sports to maintain a healthy lifestyle. treat them, its not a choice they make to get injured.

Of course this argument falls to pieces when you realize that fat people, smokers and atheletes also (probably) pay taxes.

Either way....anything done for cosmetic reasons as opposed to emergency aught to come ou of the "patient's" own pockets.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Seb G

You can't just stop putting food into your mouth. You can't just quit smoking or drinking.

Yes, you can.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Medical discrimination is a bad thing. Preventative measures should be taken by the medical community to urge people to eat less. Obesity is a major problem in every western nation. Its burden on the medical community will only grow as time goes on.

I tend to agree, with the caveat that "urging" preventative measures isn't a good solution for the simple reason that it doesn't work. People will choose to take preventative measures or not, and those who choose not to will still provide a disproportionate and severe strain on the system.

How, then, to solve the problem? I don't think most people would seriously suggest making obesity a crime, akin to "parasitism" in the old Soviet Union, and I wouldn't suggest it either. Making the obese pay for the disproportionate amount of medical care they use would be anathema to a socialized system. You could always cut costs on the side of medical staff to try and make up for the costs of extra care, but is enslaving doctors really a solution? And if none of these work, what else is there?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If that were true

It's true.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I would have to laugh at your government.

Welcome to the club. We're all laughing at our government. Well, would be laughing if they weren't actually our government.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I have no problem with regulating taxes on unhealthy behavior. Beats forbidding stuff all the time. If you do something dangerous like smoking, then take responsibility for it. Neither do I mind the regulating taxes on alcohol, and if obesity became a major problem, I would favour taxes and high-calorie food as well.

Where does one stop? Are we going to impose a tax on meat-eating? Who decides what's dangerous and what's not?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I do NOT think surgery is always the answer because of complications.

Also what I'm saying is that I believe that doctors know that NHS (in the UK) and Medicaid/Medicare or our governmental health system will pick up the cost of this expensive and risky surgery and I think that these doctors are making money and they are quick to prescribe surgery when in fact some of these people will be harmed and will remain uneducated and prone to getting big again.

Oddly, enough, today's "Ed" (repeat) was about a fat youth who had gastric stapling and ran into complications.


But... ...surgery to stop folks form getting fatter ain't really the issue. They're delaying all surgery for obese folks (especially leg surgery) 'coz there's more chance of complications. There's also an undercurrent of "we're not going to operate on this guy's knee because his weight will mean that the problem will crop up again soon".

[ghporter]

Cody, how people eat (along with what they eat and how often) is almost always a complex result of upbringing, culture, habit and their current environment. I have classmates who are fitness nuts and they are having problems with food because we're all in probably the most stressful educational setting ever (we're about to finish Gross Anatomy-and it is). I've put on several pounds because I have less time for active life due to study requirements. This is temporary for us, but what about someone who has a seriously stressful life? Do they get to just say "working myself to death to support my family isn't nearly as important as a healthy diet?" Probably not.

I was brought up in a household where having enough on the table was sometimes a struggle; that has colored my entire life. I've found that people who grew up without a concern about whether or not they'd have enough to eat have far fewer problems with weight, and perhaps that's because of a lack of stress over "having enough." I'll bet you never went hungry when you were growing up...

If a person is aware that he or she is not managing his or her food intake properly, he or she can decide to do something about it. Unfortunately our world is far too busy and harried for many people to see what's happening to them daily-at least until it's a major problem.

It is NOT about willpower in most people. It's about awareness interacting with a slew of other factors. If losing weight were as simple as saying "I'll just eat less and exercise more, starting right now," then there wouldn't be multibillion dollar industries for fitness equipment and "miracle diets." Really, if it were simple, it wouldn't be a problem.

[willed]

Part of the problem is that no one is willing to take responsibility for their actions these days. Since Freud, the blame has always been placed on some mysterious childhood incident; since understanding of evolution and DNA, blame has been placed on one's genetic make-up.
However, the whole point of being a rational human being (as opposed to a mad-man or an animal) is that one can consciously choose to overcome one's predilections and urges. That's why, when I see a hot girl in the street I don't rape her; and similarly why when I see a 2 litre tub of ice-cream I don't eat the whole thing just because I want to.
Therefore, I have no problem with blaming those who are fat or have smoked themselves to death. In the vast majority of cases, there is a real choice for those who are suffering. They just couldn't be bothered to make the right one.

Obviously there are exceptions and mitigating circumstances; a lot of people can't afford anything other than junk food, while some people are probably naturally bigger. However, such factors don't explain the exponential rise in obesity levels in the last 50 years.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I have no problem with regulating taxes on unhealthy behavior. Beats forbidding stuff all the time. If you do something dangerous like smoking, then take responsibility for it. Neither do I mind the regulating taxes on alcohol, and if obesity became a major problem, I would favour taxes and high-calorie food as well.If that were true, I would have to laugh at your government. One can overdo political correctness.

No way! I don't have a weight problem but I still like to have a cookie every once in awhile. I'm supposed to pay more for my cookie because someone else has a weight problem. Eating cake, ice cream etc is NOT an unhealthy behavior unless its excessive.

[Cody Dawg]

ghporter

I'll bet you never went hungry when you were growing up...

ghporter, I appreciate very much what you're saying. Yes, I know that stress can make a person eat...and not eat. I once had anorexia. I would eat a piece of pizza and gain a pound, literally. I was modeling and I became obsessed with my weight. I had to quit modeling (which was good for me in a lot of ways namely because I then finished college) to get healthier physically and mentally.

You mentioned not going hungry? Growing up I had a very dysfunctional childhood and yes there were times when we had very little food. Heck, sometimes my father never even came home and I was foraging for food. Once I remember going out and picking mulberries from the neighbors tree to eat for breakfast. I remember eating macaroni with margarine and salt and fried bologna two or three times a week. I finally went to stay with my grandparents because of an alcoholic father (my mother died when I was 3) and they had a farm and raised their own vegetables and were pretty self-sustaining, but we never had a lot of money. I remember not having $67 for a class ring way back then, in fact. I went to work at 13 baling hay to pay for dental work and braces on my teeth and when I was 14 I was bussing tables at a local farmer's restaurant to buy school clothes. In fact, while in junior high and high school I worked in the cafeteria for an hour a day to pay for my meals at school.

willed mentioned junk food being less expensive. That might be true in some instances, but I've found that's it's usually not the case. How much is a bag of Lay's potato chips now? $3.29 last I saw. A chocolate bar (Snickers, M&Ms, etc.,) is now .69. How can junk food be less expensive? Seriously, tell me how? Even if you think about buying McDonald's double cheeseburgers at $1 each one drink with that burger is $1.79. Now you're looking at $2.79 for lunch. I can buy a loaf of bread for $1.69 and a pack of Oscar Meyer turkey bologna for $1.79. We're talking about $3.50. But the loaf of bread and the bologna equals many more sandwiches than just one serving from the burger from McDonalds.

[willed]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

No way! I don't have a weight problem but I still like to have a cookie every once in awhile. I'm supposed to pay more for my cookie because someone else has a weight problem. Eating cake, ice cream etc is NOT an unhealthy behavior unless its excessive.

Exactly - I love a McDonald's once in a while and have just had a large bowel of ice-cream... to cool me down after a 27 mile bike ride. But I don't want to be paying a fat-tax to do so!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by willed

However, the whole point of being a rational human being (as opposed to a mad-man or an animal) is that one can consciously choose to overcome one's predilections and urges. That's why, when I see a hot girl in the street I don't rape her; and similarly why when I see a 2 litre tub of ice-cream I don't eat the whole thing just because I want to.

I bet you sometimes do things you hadn't planned to do. Just because it's not those particular things doesn't make it any less so.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

ghporter, I appreciate very much what you're saying. Yes, I know that stress can make a person eat...and not eat. I once had anorexia. I would eat a piece of pizza and gain a pound, literally.

It definately sounds like you had a rough time of it--very. I never had any money when I was younger either. My parents couldn't afford to take us to McDonald's or Pizza Hut and so she would make us vegatables and freshly cooked food. I remember being a little bitter at the time because all my friends were eating burgers and fries--now I'm glad my family ate that way because it would seem that eating patterns are set very young. Curiously, the one thing she let us have a lot of is ice cream. Guess what? I still can't get enough of the stuff. Weird how that works.

Also, don't mean to derail, but I was curious--how did eating a single slice of pizza cause you to gain a pound? You said anorexia had something to do with it but I guess I don't understand the connection.

[Cody Dawg]

Zeeb: I gained weight because I had/have diabetes. About a year after that I went in for a routine physical and my blood sugar was up near 200 when fasting (nothing to eat). Diabetes does weird things to people. I still can't eat carbs or starches and bread falls into that category. Pizza is oily and has bread. Now when I eat pizza I eat little bits of the cheese and eat the toppings (I like vegetable toppings like mushrooms, green peppers, etc.,) and don't eat any of the bread. I nibble on it. Also, women gain weight from salty foods (pizza can qualify) much easier than men because we gain water weight when we eat salt. That was probably part of it.

My father was a crappy father, that's all I can say. I haven't spoken to him in about 15 years and before that I hadn't spoken to him in 5 years. I tried to overcome our differences in between those two times but I really resented him and I decided that he wasn't worth my energy. I'm very happy to disremember him. I remember being 6 and he would leave for a couple of days at a time. He'd come home and just sit in his office and not even acknowledge me or say anything at all - for hours. Once I was so hungry that I put a frozen chicken in the oven and cooked it for myself. Forgot to remove the giblet packet inside and cooked it far too long so that it was like rubber to chew, but I tried. I think I was 8 when I did that. I'm probably lucky I'm alive and didn't burn the house down.

[SSharon]

I think there is a huge difference between fat people eating a lot and smokers. Everyone has to eat and it is just the excess that is dangerous. No one has to smoke. You don't need 3 cigs a day to live like you should be having 3 meals. Controlling exactly how much food you eat is not the same as not starting to smoke.

[Y3a]

Stomach stapling is for those who have no self control, and the way you limit their food intake is to reduce the stomach size. PATHETIC. AFTER the stapling, they have to be vary careful on how and what they eat, so the same problem of lack of control hasn't been solved.

[brassplayersrock²]

yeah and the fact that some of the fastfood places now call what use to be there XL drinks/fries large, use to be larges medium and what use to be mediums are now the small size isnt helping out ether. wendys comes to mind, so does mcdonalds

[Kr0nos]

Very good thread.

Don't have a lot of time, but I do want to throw out another term here that really hasn't figured into the discussion much - 'reward thinking'.

See, it's not just about discipline (though this plays a major role when it comes to weight control), it's also about 'how you feel' after and before you've had your meal. It's an entire 'psychological' system which 'weighs in' on the decision process.

Someone here mentioned that their 'childhood' patterns are continued in their adult life - and this is absolutely right, - not only in terms of dietary behavior, but also in terms of 'reward thinking'.

This is how folks deal with frustration and stress (subconsciously, most of time, of course). Feel like crap after a stressful day at the office? - Eat something nice and sugary (sugars really do makes you feel better) etc.

The key is to know how these mechanisms work, fight them and then take control of your life - and being 'responsible' here, is only the beginning.

[evfish84]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

I remember being a little bitter at the time because all my friends were eating burgers and fries--now I'm glad my family ate that way because it would seem that eating patterns are set very young. Curiously, the one thing she let us have a lot of is ice cream. Guess what? I still can't get enough of the stuff. Weird how that works.

I know what you mean. I never had any soft drinks as a child because my parents would never buy them. I never drank them, and I never got to like them. Even now, I almost never drink sodas unless there is no other option. Most Americans do not realize that they generally take in anywhere from 500-1000 Calories a day (as estimated by the FDA, I believe) just from what they drink.

[mitchell_pgh]

HBO had an interesting show about morbidly obese people... It documented a person that weighed 750 lbs. What I found interesting was... they were simply food addicts... (most with serious depression issues) with people around them that enabled them to get to the point where they couldn't move.

You can't get that way on your own.

There is little sympathy for morbidly obese people... but what if you had an addiction which you literally couldn't stop. (You can stop doing drugs, you can stop drinking alcohol, you can stop downloading porn... but you can never stop eating).

One guy said... "Think about it... how many heroin addicts do you know that can have a 'little taste' and stay on the wagon" which kind of made me feel somewhat bad.

I don't feel sad or upset about them... I simply feel like any other addiction.

[davesimondotcom]

Being fat (I prefer that term over "overweight" for a number of reasons) is usually from a combination of things. The two main are:

* Genetics
* Lifestyle (Diet choices, sedentary lifestyle)

You can't change genetics. Some people are just unlucky enough to have naturally slow metabolisms, tend to gain weight easily, etc.

However, you can OVERCOME genetics, through lifestyle choices. It's not as "easy" as taking a pill or getting some surgery. But exercise and proper food habits do have a better effect than a pill or surgery.

I understand, though, why some people go for the surgery. Already in this thread, we've seen some who are fairly hostile towards those who are fat. Society treats skinny people differently than fat people, right or wrong. Just fact. In fact, how many of us look at an unhealthy skinny person the same way as a fat person?

It's the lack of a healthy lifestyle that we should be "looking down" on. But yet, skinny (I don't mean "normal" here, I mean skin and bones types) people aren't condemned in the same way. It's just that fat people are the lone remaining prejudice.

How do I know what I'm talking about?

Well, I was an athlete in high school. I've always been "big" - by that I mean I have always had a muscular frame, broad shoulders, barrel chest, thick legs, etc. At the best shape of my life, around 17, I was 6'2", 220#. I probably had less than 10% body fat. Yet, the government says that 220# is "overweight" for 6'2".

I'm now what most people would call "fat." I do have a big belly. Hell, I got lazy for years on end. But I'm working on it. But how many people who aren't "fat" can say that they were at the gym today and averaged 9 MPH on the elliptical trainer for 30 minutes without stopping?

Cardiovascularly, I'm in pretty good shape. Muscularly, I'm in pretty good shape. I just have a few layers of fat to lose. And I will.

My wife is overweight, too. And no, she doesn't work out like I do. But I can understand why she doesn't. First off, she works 40 hours a week at a "normal" job, then turns around and works on a home-based business another 3-4 hours a night.

Second, she's got a few health problems. More than a few. And some could be exasterbated because of her weight, but it's a self-feeding cycle. She has a connective tissue disease that is similar to Rheumatoid Arthritis. There are days that she is so sore she can hardly walk. Even though she's been treated for it for almost two years, and it's under control most of the time, it's always there to some extent.

She also has MS. She's still getting used to this and what it can mean for her. She was diagnosed last October. She takes a shot every night to try to control the MS, and the shots get put in seven different spots on her body, one per day. And for the next three or four days, that spot is sore.

Basically, she's gone through more pain in the past 3 years than most people do in a lifetime. She's one tough cookie. So, if her weight is low on her priority list for now, I understand. She has these other things to deal with. Eventually, she'll work on her weight, too.

But she won't do it through surgery. She'll work out and eat better.

Things longer do now that I'm trying to be healthy again:

*Drink soda pop - nothing can be gained from drinking sugar. Even "diet" pop is not as good as water. I drink easily over a gallon of water a day.

*Eat fast food - part of being less lazy is making a healthy meal at home

*Snack - when I feel like I want a snack, I either take a walk with the dog or have a protein shake

*Eat everything I'm served at a restaurant. Most restaurants want to justify their high prices - so they give you HUGE portions. Much more than you need. Eat half and save the other half for lunch the next day.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

HBO had an interesting show about morbidly obese people... It documented a person that weighed 750 lbs. What I found interesting was... they were simply food addicts... (most with serious depression issues) with people around them that enabled them to get to the point where they couldn't move.

You can't get that way on your own.

There is little sympathy for morbidly obese people... but what if you had an addiction which you literally couldn't stop. (You can stop doing drugs, you can stop drinking alcohol, you can stop downloading porn... but you can never stop eating).

One guy said... "Think about it... how many heroin addicts do you know that can have a 'little taste' and stay on the wagon" which kind of made me feel somewhat bad.

At the same time, these people are not getting fat off celery and tofu.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by evfish84

I know what you mean. I never had any soft drinks as a child because my parents would never buy them. I never drank them, and I never got to like them. Even now, I almost never drink sodas unless there is no other option. Most Americans do not realize that they generally take in anywhere from 500-1000 Calories a day (as estimated by the FDA, I believe) just from what they drink.

How many calories are in your average rum drink? Is there a diet rum I can find?

[olePigeon]

You're not obese until you can't wipe your own ass without an "extension." Otherwise, you're just fat and there's hope yet for you with a healthy diet and exercise.

[starman]

Originally Posted by willed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5198150.stm

Apparently there are too many obese people in the UK who 'need' operations for the NHS to deal with. I think it's disgusting that they get operations on the NHS at all (a service provided entirely by the government via taxpayers), when they could just eat less and move more, instead of grazing their way through life with a spoon in one hand and a TV remote in the other...
but on the other hand I feel that smokers should still be treated for lung cancer and, say, extreme sports fans should still be treated for what some might call 'self inflicted' injuries... Is there any difference between these and fat people? Logically it seems that the system ought to treat them.

Only in Amer....oh, wait.

[BRussell]

The problem with singling out behaviorally-based medical problems is that virtually all serious health problems today are behavioral. With vaccinations we've come close to eradicating most easily transmitted infectious diseases, at least in wealthy countries. So we're left with cardiovascular disease (mainly heart attacks and strokes) and cancer as the majority cause of death, and the majority of those have behavioral causes - mainly smoking and diet/exercise/obesity. Throw in alcohol and car accidents, and you've got most of the causes of death.

A very small proportion of serious health problems and deaths today can truly be called behaviorally unpreventable.



(Click image for larger version)

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Millennium

I tend to agree, with the caveat that "urging" preventative measures isn't a good solution for the simple reason that it doesn't work. People will choose to take preventative measures or not, and those who choose not to will still provide a disproportionate and severe strain on the system.

How, then, to solve the problem? I don't think most people would seriously suggest making obesity a crime, akin to "parasitism" in the old Soviet Union, and I wouldn't suggest it either. Making the obese pay for the disproportionate amount of medical care they use would be anathema to a socialized system. You could always cut costs on the side of medical staff to try and make up for the costs of extra care, but is enslaving doctors really a solution? And if none of these work, what else is there?

Dismantling social welfare and making everybody pay for their own problems out of their own pocket.

[JonoG4]

Originally Posted by SSharon

How many calories are in your average rum drink? Is there a diet rum I can find?

A shot of most liquor contains around 98 calories from alcohol. These are "empty" calories and some studies have actually shown people lose weight drinking alcohol. Now, if you add in a mix like pop or another sugary beverage, that's a different story.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by JonoG4

A shot of most liquor contains around 98 calories from alcohol. These are "empty" calories and some studies have actually shown people lose weight drinking alcohol. Now, if you add in a mix like pop or another sugary beverage, that's a different story.

No thanks, I'll take it straight. And you say I can lose weight doing this? If you could lose weight drinking I don't think the brits (or american for that matter) would have the problems they are having.

[Chuckit]

You can lose weight drinking, but not if it's mixed with a shitload of Coke and paired with deep fried chicken and transfatty chips.

[Rumor]

Society is geared towards making people fat. Look at the available foods. I'm lucky enough to live in a "hippie" area where heathy foods are readily available.

I have no symphathy for obese people. 99.9% of them could have prevented it if they would only get off thier fat asses and do something with themselves.

I just got into an argument last night with my g/f about this. There was a show on with some fat kid who weighed almost 400lbs at 16. His parents fed him like a horse until it became a problem, now they are remorseful. They are trying to say dieting doesn't work etc. FEED THE DAMN KID LESS FOOD AND PUT HIS FAT ASS ON A TREADMILL.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

HBO had an interesting show about morbidly obese people... It documented a person that weighed 750 lbs. What I found interesting was... they were simply food addicts... (most with serious depression issues) with people around them that enabled them to get to the point where they couldn't move.

You can't get that way on your own.

I know someone like this and I agree strongly. She is too smart for her own good and thinks that being overweight isn't really a physical or mental health problem, it's a social/cultural problem. In other words, she doesn't think that being overweight is a problem, she thinks society is at fault for setting unrealistic standards. Unfortunately she has a psychiatrist who reinforces this thought pattern. In addition she clearly suffers from severe depression; she is the most intelligent person I know and yet, since college, she has been stuck living at home with her parents and working in dead-end, low skilled jobs.

Her demeanor when challenged on various issues is unpleasant, to say the least, so people around her don't challenge her views on weight issues and thus continue to enable her behavior. She's a close friend of my wife's and my wife is concerned for her health. The only suggestion I could provide to my wife is to arrange some kind of intervention like what's done for substance abusers. I can't think of another way for my wife to change this person's views, and any individual confrontation will simply result in swift death for their friendship. I'm no psychologist, so if anyone knows a way to approach this that would work I'm all ears

[Chuckit]

She's not really wrong. A lot of the reason for obesity is societal. But you know what? That's life. We can't just blame society for the evils it causes and simply accept them. It's like, yes, there are hereditary causes of alcoholism, but that doesn't mean anybody with alcoholism in their family should just go ahead and buy a lifetime supply of Jack Daniel's.

[itai195]

I agree that society is partly to blame for some causes of obesity, but that's not really her argument. Her argument is that obesity itself is not a health problem. And maybe it's not a serious health problem if you're only 20-30 pounds overweight, depending on your body type, but I'd say she is probably a good 200-300 pounds overweight.