[kawilky]

because the new intel chip won't run OS9 Classic programs. 90% of my use is FrameMaker Mac book publishing. Adobe isn't supporting OS10 for FrameMaker. I am looking at refurbished Motorola chip G5's which will run all my existing software. Any suggestions?
thanks in advance...
kawilky

[Big Mac]

Point of clarification, those aren't G5s. They're "Mac Pros."

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

Another point of clarification, The G5 chip wasn't made by Motorola, they were made by IBM.

[kawilky]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Point of clarification, those aren't G5s. They're "Mac Pros."

Hi,

confused, this url is macworld selling Mac Pro G5s???

Mac g5 Desktops - Macworld - Price Comparison

kawilky

[nerd]

Check ebay. There's G5s on there. I'll be selling one in a few days so I can get a Mac Pro.

[nerd]

Those are G5s. Notice how they're called Power Mac. Power Macs have the PPC chips when Mac Pros have the Intel chips. I you need to run classic as in OS 9 then you need a Power Mac. A G4 or G5 should work for you.

[kawilky]

Originally Posted by kawilky 

Hi,

confused, this url is macworld selling Mac Pro G5s???

Mac g5 Desktops - Macworld - Price Comparison

kawilky

so the Mac Pro won't run OS9 Classic, and the G5 will? I need to use FrameMaker Mac version, which won't run on OS10 and is no longer for sale.

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

Then you need a Power Mac G5

[kawilky]

thank you, there is one on Craig's List Peninsula Bay Area (Pacifica), for $2500 from Bern Switzerland, includes all the programs and a 23" apple monitor:
too good to be true??

BRAND NEW G5 POWERMAC 2.5GHz QUAD-CORE, 2GB w 23" DISPLAY

"This is what you'll get for $2,500"

?Apple PowerMac 2.5GHz Quad-core PowerPC G5 with Motorola chip
?2GB 533 DDR2 Non ECC SDRAM- 4x512
?500GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
?NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GT 256 MB SDRAM
?AirPort Extreme + Bluetooth built-in
?Apple USB Modem
?16x SuperDrive DL (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
?Fibre Channel PCI Express Card (w/ SFP-SFP cable)
?Apple Wireless Keyboard & Mouse - U.S English
?Mac OS X - U.S. English



Together with:

1. Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel)-
2. Apple DVI to ADC Display Adapter-
3. iPod video (60GB) -
4. Logitech Z-5500 5.1 THX Speaker System-
5. Bose QuietComfort 2 Acoustic Noise Cancelling Headphones-
6. iSight video camera + iSight Accessory Kit.-
7. AirPort Extreme Base Station with 56K V.90 modem and antenna port.-
8. AirPort Extreme Card -
9. Apple Wireless Mouse .-
10. Apple Wireless Keyboard-
11. JBL Creature 2.1 Speakers -
12. Software included: - Microsoft Office v.X, Macromedia Studio 8 ,
Adobe Creative Suite 2, Virtual PC 6.0, Norton AntiVirus 8.0, GarageBand
Jam Pack,Soundtrack Pro,
iLife '06 Family Pack(including iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD), iWork
'06, QuickTime 7 Pro, QuarkXPress 6.0, Roxio Toast with Jam, Apple
Shake, Apple Soundtrack,
Apple Motion, Final Cut Studio 5.1 Universal, DVD Studio Pro 4, Logic
Express 7, Logic Pro 7.-
13. Operating System included is: Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" Family Pack.-
14.Warranty: 3 years AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (with
Display)-purchased and not registered yet.


kathy

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by kawilky 

so the Mac Pro won't run OS9 Classic, and the G5 will? I need to use FrameMaker Mac version, which won't run on OS10 and is no longer for sale.

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the G5 couldn't run OS9 even in classic mode.

[P]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the G5 couldn't run OS9 even in classic mode.

It can - I do it regularly. Classic is fully functional.

[mfbernstein]

All PowerPC-based Macs that run OS X can run classic. No Intel-based Mac can run classic. Period.

Hate to say it, but FrameMaker on Mac is dead dead dead. Another reason to thank Adobe. Though I suppose Windows FrameMaker on Parallels isn't that impossible.

As to why the OP needs a Quad G5 (or Mac Pro) for FrameMaker, I couldn't say. FrameMaker and Classic can't even take advantage of 2 cores, let alone 4.

[kawilky]

really great information, thank you all.

I work for a publisher and the entire library is built in Frame/Mac w/mac fonts. So thanks again Adobe. I do however have at least 4-5 programs running at one time {including OS10 & Classic), so you think that would justify the 2 or 4 cores?
usually running Frame/Classic, Excel, Word, Photoshop, Acrobat and Distiller, suitcase, transmit ftp, and of course IM for latest edits. Would also like to run Parallel or Boot with Windows xp as I live in the Bay Area and rent is such i am usually in very tight quarters.

Really glad i stumbled on this forum.

[kawilky]

Really don't understand Adobe's position on FrameMaker, it is the only serious book building program i have used in the industry, for cross reference, generating index, toc, quick ref, etc. Quark and even InDesign aren't even in the same ballpark.

[kawilky]

re: FrameMaker, even if one thinks print is dead or close to it, absolutely everthing we build ends up on the web as either a download or online trainging tool, ie, Cisco tech manuals and traing. Adobe! what are you thinking?

[Kenneth]

MacInTouch.com put out a readers' report on FrameMaker.

BTW, some of the info on the MacWorld/pricegrabber link are wrong. There is no such thing as a 'Apple Power Mac Dual G5 1.8GHz Dual Core Desktop'.

[imitchellg5]

You should just get a Power Mac G4. A Power Mac G5 is overkill for classic work.

[kawilky]

except FrameMaker is the only program i need Classic for...
all the rest run on OS10

[peeb]

Sounds like the G5 will suit you well.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by mfbernstein 

All PowerPC-based Macs that run OS X can run classic. No Intel-based Mac can run classic. Period.

Well actually you're wrong. There's a little app called sheepshaver that allows intel macs to run OS7, 8 and even 9. While I have tried this myself, some people have had varying levels of success.

[kawilky]

sheepshaver? i will check it out.
I have posted this to Macintouch:
Contact MacInTouch

next stop Adobe

[besson3c]

You really need a strategy to move away from Framemaker, this cannot be postponed inevitably.

[ajprice]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You really need a strategy to move away from Framemaker, this cannot be postponed inevitably.

^^^ What He Said. If you are spending $$$ on a Mac the way it looks like you are, find an OS X alternative to Framemaker and get an Intel Mac, or keep your money and keep the G5, forget about OS 9. You have said yourself that Framemaker is the only OS 9 program you use, so its probably time to make the switch now if or when you buy a new mac.

[kawilky]

I don't think there is a comparable program to FrameMaker.
Quark, InDesign, Word no where near the same ballpark, for indexing, cross ref, generating toc, variable type conditions.
I guess Frame for Windows, with all the crazy font problems,
but our entire library and contractors around the world are all using Mac version of Frame.
does the mac pro w/intel chip, w/parallel or boot and WinXP
really compare to using a PC?
what about font usage?

[mfbernstein]

First, SheepShaver is a nice toy, but its reliability varies depending on the app and host system. It may work well. It may not. Regardless, it's not as seamless as Classic: you need to create a full OS8/9 installation inside a disk image (meaning you need, for starters, an CD of OS <= 9.0.4). Frankly, if you're going to get Parallels, you'd be better off with FrameMaker for Windows than SheepShaver: it's faster, and it'll work, period. It works just as well as a real PC, save for 3D apps, which work just fine in Boot Camp.

As to the number of cores, why not have a look at the Activity Monitor when you're working? If utilization hits 100% regularly, then you'll know you can benefit from more cores.

[mac128k-1984]

I was just pointing out that "No Intel-based Mac can run classic. Period." was wrong that's all. I wasn't saying if it was a suitable solution. It could be, but then again it may not, but the fact remains you can run classic on an intel machine.

[Peabo]

Originally Posted by kawilky 

I don't think there is a comparable program to FrameMaker.
Quark, InDesign, Word no where near the same ballpark, for indexing, cross ref, generating toc, variable type conditions.
I guess Frame for Windows, with all the crazy font problems,
but our entire library and contractors around the world are all using Mac version of Frame.
does the mac pro w/intel chip, w/parallel or boot and WinXP
really compare to using a PC?
what about font usage?

When you use bootcamp, your mac essentially becomes a PC. Using parallels the only thing you don't get is 3d acceleration. It's very fast and totally useable. For example, Adobe Flash 8 was much much faster in Parallels under windows XP than Adobe Flash 8 running on the Mac OS as a PPC application under Rosetta.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I was just pointing out that "No Intel-based Mac can run classic. Period." was wrong that's all. I wasn't saying if it was a suitable solution. It could be, but then again it may not, but the fact remains you can run classic on an intel machine.

To be pedantic, no you cannot run Classic on a Mactel. Classic is short for the "Classic Environment" VM for OS 9. You may be able to emulate OS 9 on other platforms, but that's not the same as Classic.

[kawilky]

It was extremely hard to return the Mac Pro, really fast, but the only thing i could do before the 14 days was up was to pull big files from the co ftp site, and check email. But i did get it back and talked apple out of the 10% restocking fee.

I would like to check the activity monitor on the system i am temporarily using, how do i check that?

anyone bought from GainSaver?

is an apple monitor justified in the world of critical color? Like medical art, skin tones, etc.?

[Mac Write]

No G5 can put Mac OS 9 natively. The last Mac to natively boot into OS 9 was the PowerMac G4 1.25GHZ MDD Firewire400 (not the FW800).

[mfbernstein]

Activity Monitor is in /Applications/Utilities. Take a good look at the CPU and memory usage graphs (for checking if you have enough memory, the page outs stat. is invaluable - should be very small compared to page ins).

The Apple monitors are decent, but they're not notably better than the many cheaper HP/Dell/... ones. For absolute color fidelity, CRTs are still (with a few very pricey exceptions) ahead.

As for OS 9, what Big Mac said. SheepShaver will, incidentally, run on PPC as well as Intel based Macs (and is a nice way to run OS 7.5 for us nostalgic types). Sadly, it isn't really stable enough to work dependably in most cases, and there isn't a critical mass of developers moving it in that direction.

[icrew]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the G5 couldn't run OS9 even in classic mode.

Not true. Here's how it breaks down:

Mac Pro (Intel): Requires Mac OS X 10.4.7 or later, will not run Mac OS 9 (either natively or in classic)

PowerMac G4 (Firewire 800) and PowerMac G5: Will only boot Mac OS X, but will run Mac OS 9.2.2 in Classic mode (classic apps running inside Mac OS X--technically not emulation, but that's the idea)

All PowerMac G4s prior to the PowerMac G4 (Firewire 800): Will boot either Mac OS X or Mac OS 9. Will also run Mac OS 9.2.2 in Classic mode while running Mac OS X.

The detail about the PowerMac G4 (Firewire 800) not booting Mac OS 9 is a real bit of trivia, but I know of at least one person who it bit, back when those were the top-end machines.

Hope this helps.

[dpicardi]

Kathy,

That craigslist ad sounds like a major scam. Stay far away if if you value your money.

To put it into perspective, Apple is offering REFURBISHED Quad G5's for $2699.

That deal is too good to be true.

Dave

[peeb]

Sounds like the G5 will work - but the final solution is going to be to move away from Framemaker. When you want to replace this machine, there will likely be nothing that runs it.

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Sounds like the G5 will work - but the final solution is going to be to move away from Framemaker. When you want to replace this machine, there will likely be nothing that runs it.

Yeah I was going to reply a couple days ago to the thread that he might want to look at a replacement for FrameMaker as he should be looking at MacOS X apps which are supported. FrameMaker has been discontinued long ago. But saying that seemed easier than it is to actually do it. Especially when his whole company relies on this product heavily.

Right now his best bet is a Power Mac G5. He probably doesn't need the Quad G5. Just one of the Duals would do great.

[Theilgaard]

In this FrameMaker debate I still cannot get to my head why Adobe will not build their UNIX version of FrameMaker for Mac OS X. I shouldn't be that hard, XWindows and everything is available...

My suggesten in this case is to consider the Windows version of FrameMaker (it's still a product that is regular updated, and now at version 7.1), and run it in CrossOver Mac: CodeWeavers - CrossOver Mac

CrossOver has a lot of bug fixes only to enhance support for FrameMaker, and for this particular purpose, CrossOver is a much better solution than Parallels.

Depending on the need in FrameMaker, InDesign CS3 might actually be a posibility, as it has got even more FrameMaker features, like variables, cross references and more.

[besson3c]

Have you looked at KWord and Scribus as Framemaker alternatives?

[kawilky]

you say InDesign CS3 had FrameMaker features, variables, x-ref?
Is this beta or have you worked with it?

you really think no go on the Switzerland mac? it includes 23" monitor (mac), Microsoft Office, CS2 2, Quark 6, and 3 years of AppleCare...

he has sent all his bank info, address, bank name and affiliate in NY, is it really any scarrier (sp?) than other internet sites? Heck! The Apple Store was going to stick me with something I couldn't use if i didn't get it back in 14 days. I thought i would have my bank contact his and verify this guys existance.

maybe it is crazy, but even if the monitor and software are good, it is still a good deal, as i need all new software anyway.

Here is his letter, it actually sounds pretty safe, i would love to hear what you think with this new info:

I noticed that you are hesitant to conclude this
>> deal because you have concerns about my reliability.
>>
>> Selling computers is not something I do for living.
>> I just got a great deal on this Apple stuff and I'm
>> trying to sell it the easyest way because US English
>> Macs are
>> not so popular here.
>> You have all my details: my name, my bank
>> account and my home address.
>> I think this is legitimate enough.
>> I'm not asking payment through Western Union, I'm
>> asking the
>> payment through a bank, a legal and also easy to
>> track method of payment.
>> I understand your concerns to send money overseas
>> but
>> I can tell you that I'll not risk my freedom and
>> reputation signing up
>> for the money and keeping them without sending the
>> G5 package to you.
>> I am in Switzerland not in a third world country,
>> without laws.
>> I have a healthy respect for the consequences of
>> criminal behavior and
>> I know that a simple complain from your end can send
>> me in jail for few years.
>> As you well know we have severe punishment for
>> internet fraud so you
>> don't need to worry about anything, you'll get what
>> you're paying for.
>>
Beneficiary: MXXXXX XXXXXXX
>> >My address: Rosa-reinglass-steig 0
>> >Bank: SWISS POST - PostFinance
>> >Bank address: Nordring 8, 3030 Bern, Switzerland
>> >Account No: 00-000000-0
>> >IBAN(international bank account number):
>> XX0000000000000000000
>> >Clearing: 09000
>> >Swift-Code: POFICHBEXXX
>> >BIC-Code: POFICHBE
>> >
>> >
>> >Correspondent bank(only if needed)eutsche Bank
>> Trust Co-Americas,
>> >New York, US, Swift: BXXXXXX, ABA Number:
>> 000000009

kathy

[dpicardi]

if it sounds too good to be true then...

If this was not a true statement 98.5% of the time you would not be able to recall it so easily.

He makes it sound like prosecuting would be as easy as making a phone call. It's not I assure you. Do you thing the local police will care about someone stealing $2500? That's small claims court here in the US and next to impossible to get police to take action on. Bank involvement does not mean anything. It is a simple transfer of money.

The fact that he is NOT in the business of selling computers makes this even more of a concern to me as he has no history.

Kathy, you need to do what seems right to you. Follow your head not your heart - as we'd all love to have this kind of deal.

Is it possible this guy's legit? Sure. But if he is he is taking a real beating in selling to you at this price and selling you pirated software to boot on this machine.

Best of luck. Let us know how if works out if you decide to move forward.

Dave

[peeb]

How about suggesting using escrow?

[Theilgaard]

I haven't worked with the CS3 version, yet, but I have seen a demonstration, where some of these new feature were shown.

I have used FrameMaker a long time, and I have also used it on Windows. The Windows version actualle have better customized features, as the folder structure is quite different from the mac version. For instance it is possible to customize how you want FrameMaker to substitute fonts when som are missing.

The CS3 update to InDesign is quite significant so I would guess Adobe has done a lot to let inDesign be the future of publishing (it seems as if Adobe only sees a future for FrameMaker when the talk is about specialised database solutions and so on).

You can see whats new in CS3 here:
Adobe - InDesign CS3, Page Layout Software, Upgrade from CS2

[angelmb]

If I remember correctly there are some forum members that are from Switzerland, you could try to ask them for any help they could provide you, maybe just a phone call to that seller -if the seller doesn't mind to give you his-her phone number- could let you guess if it is really legit.

So far sounds really good, too good… what worries me is the "I'm trying to sell it the easyest way because US English Macs are not so popular here".

What makes that Mac a US English Mac?
- power supply?, I don't think so, those are universal, huh?, you only need the proper power cable, any cheap PC cable would be OK.
- keyboard?, again, how much is a localized keyboard anyway, $32 @ Switzerland Apple Store !!
- Mac OS X US english?, gotta be joking, right !?

Then there are too much stuff included there, from an iPod Video to that Fibre Channell PCI Express card… even an Apple USB modem !!

Ask the guy to give you the serial numbers for the G5 and the Display, then check them out here…
Apple - Support

look for "About Your Support Coverage. Enter your hardware serial number to find out what coverage is available for your product:" at page's right margin.

and here:
Klantenservice: Serienummers

Hope this helps.

[nerd]

Kathy, I wouldn't go with that deal at all. To put it into perspective I'm hoping to get $1,800 for my Dual G5 which as 4.5GB of RAM, a combined 620GB of drive space and Radeon 9800 Pro card. Similar configs go for $1,500 to $2,000 on eBay so I don't see how this quy will give you a Quad, better video card and 23" LCD for not much more. Too good to be true in my opinion, either that or I'm high thinking I'll get that much for mine.

-Brad

[olePigeon]

I still don't understand why Adobe ditched FrameMaker for Mac. Now they might kill it all together.

My dad's a techncial writer and deals a lot with patent stuff. 90% of the stuff they do for IEEE is in FrameMaker. They're begging Adobe to not kill off FrameMaker, but it's an uphill battle.

[MrNo]

Just to chime in, Mac's are as popular in Switzerland as they are in the States if not more.

[kawilky]

Martin,

I am very sorry but I can't buy your system. Sorry about your time but, it is just too much of a risk. I can't verify your existence and i am taking all the risk. Good luck with selling it,

Sorry,
Kathy

[kawilky]

So anyone bought from Gainsaver?

[kawilky]

So,

i turned down the Switzerland deal and ordered from Gainsaver.

Power Mac G5 Desktop Dual 2.0GHz, SuperDrive - Apple Computer M9590LL/A

[M9590LL/A] [Certified Pre-Owned]
Hard Drive: 250GB 3.5" Serial ATA $94.00
Additional Hard Drive: Optional $0.00
Memory Power Mac Dual 1.8/2.7G: 2.0GB $350.00
Install Airport Extreme Card: Optional $0.00
Extended Warranty: 1 Year Extended $200.00
Diagnostics: Yes $25.00
Insurance: Yes $19.32


just want to say THANK YOU! to all the great people on this website (forum)

by the way i checked out Adobe InDesign 3, it does have most of FrameMakers functions, except auto generated toc, index...

kathy

[kawilky]

maybe a petition is in order

kathy

[Todd Madson]

Just realize that any of the liquid cooled machines are susceptible to spectacularly expensive
failures if the liquid coolant leaks out of the cooling mechanism.

Spoken from one who experienced it - if you can, get Applecare for the product as it would
have been a $3000 repair if I had not been equipped with Applecare.