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shifuimam · Mar 24, 2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

What about the MacBook Air?
Plus, the new MacBook is lighter and I find it similar in size to the 12" iBook/PowerBook.

The MacBook Air is light in weight, but is still much bigger than netbook offerings out there. It doesn't really fall under the ultracompact category, since it's no smaller in length and width than normal notebooks on the market.

The old 12" PB G4 is somewhat heavy, but it just feels a lot smaller than anything Apple has right now. If they could take that form factor and make it thinner, that would be radtastic....I just feel like 13" widescreens are too big.

My XPS M1330 is about as small as you can get a notebook these days, but with the 13" WS, it feels big - and it's much, much bigger than my Aspire One.

OreoCookie · Mar 24, 2009, 08:45 AM

The AirBook is still a fully featured notebook and quite `normal' in size and weight for an ultraportable. Although having no ethernet connector and only one USB slot makes it quite tough (I'd prefer three). I also appreciate the additional screen estate of the MacBook compared to a 12" 4:3 screen.

From a personal perspective, and I know some people will disagree with me here, I don't think the 12" PowerBook was that great. I've used one (the 1 GHz model) for 6 months or so, but I didn't consider it worth paying that much more compared to an iBook which was almost identical in weight an size (the PowerBook was 100 g lighter, I think).

Tedeks · Mar 24, 2009, 09:03 AM

It would definitely be cool if Apple released a netbook, but the price would have to be right. I'm not sure the premium pricing would work and penetrate the market with netbooks. Running linux on an ASUS isn't a bad alternative...

slugslugslug · Mar 24, 2009, 02:05 PM

A colleague is installing OS X on a Dell Mini 9 a few feet away, and it's really tempting to get one of these, considering they just went on sale again. I keep thinking I'd pay a premium (like in the $600-800 range) for an Apple netbook-like thing if they come out with one, but they'd need some big differentiating factor.

I'll probably wait 'til somebody's shipping one with a dual-core Atom before taking the plunge, though.

scaught · Mar 24, 2009, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

I hadn't- but I'm really interested to know how you like it, compared to the standard keyboard.

Are you running OSX on yours?

I'll post a reply here once I get it the keyboard and a chance to use it for a few days.

Yep. Running OSX using the gizmodo hackintosh external CD Drive method. Upgraded to 2GB of ram. Stock 32GB drive. Love it. Recently bought a waterfield designs netbook sleeve. Pricey at $45 shipped, but quality stuff.

OT: I really can't see what Apple could bring to the netbook game that isn't being done with the mini9 with OSX installed. They could engineer it a bit better and get the keyboard a bit wider/better quality but IMO, it's that good.

scaught · Mar 26, 2009, 09:42 PM

Got the keyboard in and installed and it's good. It's taking a bit of getting used to, but there was the same curve with the other one. I think I like it better because of the more common key placement.

shifuimam · Mar 27, 2009, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by scaught

Got the keyboard in and installed and it's good. It's taking a bit of getting used to, but there was the same curve with the other one. I think I like it better because of the more common key placement.

This is the number-one problem, IMO, with many netbook options on the market right now. If you touch-type, you absolutely need to have a standard keyboard. The eeePC and Dell Mini 9 put the right shift key to the right of the up arrow on the D-pad, which throws me off like crazy. Ditto for boards that put the 1 above the tab instead of offset from the Q.

Maflynn · Mar 27, 2009, 08:16 AM

The keyboard is the netbook's achilles heal. If you see one complaint its always about the keyboard.

I was extremely close to buying a dell mini 9" earlier this week when they were running a special for 199 but I held off. I figure I can wait till June to see if Apple will release one then, if not I can always wait for dell to offer that deal again. They're pretty consistent on putting their laptops on sale.

starman · Mar 27, 2009, 08:26 AM

Been following this thread, but Maflynn's post ^^ hit the nail on the head. I almost, ALMOST bought one last week and I thought "err, why?". I mean, I have a Macbook. I don't NEED a netbook. The Macbook is good enough, light enough, big enough (or small enough depending on how you look at it), and I have an iPhone. I'm not saying I don't see the point of the netbooks, I do, but I'm wondering if this is some kind of intermediate fad that will die once either cell phones get better, or laptops get cheaper.

And yeah, I thought Apple might release one in June and if they don't, they could always announce one in August.

nonhuman · Mar 27, 2009, 08:40 AM

Well I just might be getting into the market for a netbook now. I just got a new job that's starting in 3 weeks. They'll be giving me a MacBook Pro (!!!), so I no longer have any reason to hang onto my ThinkPad (which I've been using as an MBP replacement). So I'm thinking I might replace it with a netbook for just basic browsing needs. Or I might just stick with the MBP and my iMac and just get a Kindle that I can use for reading and browsing around the house and out and about. Now I just need an opportunity to try out both solutions...

Maflynn · Mar 27, 2009, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Been following this thread, but Maflynn's post ^^ hit the nail on the head. I almost, ALMOST bought one last week and I thought "err, why?". I mean, I have a Macbook. I don't NEED a netbook. The Macbook is good enough, light enough, big enough (or small enough depending on how you look at it), and I have an iPhone.

Same here, I have a MBP, but I've found at various times, a smaller light computer would have been handy. I typically have my MBP hooked up to my display, external hard drives, usb peripherals etc and its a bit of a pain to unhook that just to use the MBP on my lap while watching tv. Plus on some occasions while commuting or in the office a small laptop would have been helpful

I don't need one, but the gee whiz factor, plus the idea of creating a hackintosh got my geek juices flowing. I have no pressing need for one, so I can wait, because if apple does do a netbook, then I have to believe they'll have a better keyboard.

starman · Mar 27, 2009, 09:17 AM

See, the hackintosh thing gets my nerd on. Considering I used to build Heathkits years ago that cost 2x as much as the Dell Mini 9, it's probably not a bad idea.

When do they go on sale again?

- - e r i k - - · Mar 27, 2009, 09:37 AM

Netbooks ARE an intermediate fad. I really don't see the point of an inbetween between an iPhone and a MacBook Air. Seriously.

jokell82 · Mar 27, 2009, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Maflynn

The keyboard is the netbook's achilles heal. If you see one complaint its always about the keyboard.

I was extremely close to buying a dell mini 9" earlier this week when they were running a special for 199 but I held off. I figure I can wait till June to see if Apple will release one then, if not I can always wait for dell to offer that deal again. They're pretty consistent on putting their laptops on sale.

I bit on the Dell Mini 9 sale. I don't really need a netbook, but I have some travel coming up and having a smaller laptop for the flights will be much better than the 15" MBP.

nonhuman · Mar 27, 2009, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Netbooks ARE an intermediate fad. I really don't see the point of an inbetween between an iPhone and a MacBook Air. Seriously.

You don't see the point of a product that has equal functionality to a MacBook Air (for the majority of people) at a lower price point?

OreoCookie · Mar 27, 2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

You don't see the point of a product that has equal functionality to a MacBook Air (for the majority of people) at a lower price point?

I think that his argument is (and I happen to agree with that) that the functionality is by no means equal: the AirBook has a fulls-sized keyboard, a decently sized screen and a fast cpu. Even if you don't need the cpu, screen size and keyboard size make it useless for a great many people.

shifuimam · Mar 27, 2009, 01:54 PM

Have you seen the HP Mini 1000? The keyboard and screen are plenty large, and at the top end of size for the netbook category. You don't have to have a 13" screen and a full-size keyboard to have a usable and even excellent or nice keyboard and display.

The only thing the Air has that the netbooks don't is a more powerful CPU - but the fact is, the Atom handles anything but gaming damn fine on its own. A 2.6GHz C2D just isn't remotely necessary for a browsing/chatting client machine.

If anything, I see less of a point to the Air than a netbook. The Air is way too pricey to be a secondary, throw-in-your-bag laptop for the average consumer. If something happens to your netbook while on vacation, you're out $300-$400. If something happens to your Air, however, you're out at least six times that much.

Langdon · Mar 28, 2009, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

I bit on the Dell Mini 9 sale. I don't really need a netbook, but I have some travel coming up and having a smaller laptop for the flights will be much better than the 15" MBP.

I am just curious what you ended up paying for the Mini 9 and what specs? I am weighing between the lower end Mini 9 $200 refubs or MSI Wind U100-641US for $300 but I am having a hard time factoring in the actual costs once all is said and done.

The Dell appears to only be able to fit SSD drives which is somewhat of an issue because I don't think I could get along with anything less than 16 gigs on a portable. That would push the price well into the $330 range for refurbs.

On the other hand the Wind almost requires you to replace the wireless card for better OSX compatibility and seems to require more tinkering to hack Tiger onto it.

There seems to be quite a contrast in tradeoffs so I am curious what others have ended up doing.

jokell82 · Mar 28, 2009, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Langdon

I am just curious what you ended up paying for the Mini 9 and what specs? I am weighing between the lower end Mini 9 $200 refubs or MSI Wind U100-641US for $300 but I am having a hard time factoring in the actual costs once all is said and done.

The Dell appears to only be able to fit SSD drives which is somewhat of an issue because I don't think I could get along with anything less than 16 gigs on a portable. That would push the price well into the $330 range for refurbs.

On the other hand the Wind almost requires you to replace the wireless card for better OSX compatibility and seems to require more tinkering to hack Tiger onto it.

There seems to be quite a contrast in tradeoffs so I am curious what others have ended up doing.

Well I did no upgrading with Dell, so my 8gig 512mb Mini 9 came to $224 with tax and shipping. I already have a 2 gig stick of RAM I can use with it, so no added cost there (normally $15, though). And I bought a 32gb SSD from NewEgg for $90. So total cost for me was $314. It would be $330 if you didn't already have the RAM.

scaught · Mar 28, 2009, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Langdon

I am just curious what you ended up paying for the Mini 9 and what specs? I am weighing between the lower end Mini 9 $200 refubs or MSI Wind U100-641US for $300 but I am having a hard time factoring in the actual costs once all is said and done.

The Dell appears to only be able to fit SSD drives which is somewhat of an issue because I don't think I could get along with anything less than 16 gigs on a portable. That would push the price well into the $330 range for refurbs.

On the other hand the Wind almost requires you to replace the wireless card for better OSX compatibility and seems to require more tinkering to hack Tiger onto it.

There seems to be quite a contrast in tradeoffs so I am curious what others have ended up doing.

Mine was one of the $50 off sales and it came to around $340 shipped for a standard ubuntu model with 32GB SSD and the 1.3 megapixel webcam which takes horrible pictures unless you're standing 3 feet from the sun or a comparable light source. I got aftermarket memory from crucial.com for $25. The SSD drive in a mini9 is apparently smaller than normal ones and not all of them fit. There are a couple manufacturers of them, one of them being some brand called runcore which also offers some kind of performance boost? Check out the mydellmini.com forums for more info. I've heard you can get by with an 8GB drive, but some people can't manage to get OSX onto it.

The dell mini9 seems to take OSX much better than the others. Once it's installed, it's basically seamless. Wireless works, sleep works, everything works. I'm stoked on mine. Performance for the random **** I do on it is great, it boots fast. Apps launch fast.

Make sure you check out the dell outlet for specials. It's really freaking random sometimes and you will see completely different lists of machines between refreshes but there's deals to be had.

Eug · Mar 28, 2009, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

If anything, I see less of a point to the Air than a netbook.

Bingo.

PB2K · Mar 29, 2009, 08:56 AM

I don't need a netbook, i have my macbook (white) with ipod touch that is sufficient. I wouldn't want a smaller screen than 13", I have trouble reading documents already. at home I have a 26" tft to make this easier.

however, I do consider taking the 17" mbp because it has a wonderful resolution. and is much shinier than a macbook.

Langdon · Mar 29, 2009, 10:26 PM

I went into my local Bestbuy to compare the Mini 9 and Wind side by side since I had only ever seen the Wind in person. It turns out they put both models on clearance and none of the stores even have them in stock or on the floor.
Strange both got pulled at the same time. I was only aware the Wind U100 was going to be phased out in the near future. It also made it harder for me to make up my mind since I don't know who else would carry Dells instore so I can take a good look at one.

harbinger75 · Mar 30, 2009, 07:45 PM

The following is only an opinion, and is not affiliated with any other persons living or dead:

I couldn't give two craps about an Apple Netbook. I have a MacBook, and I just don't want stripped functionality (MacBook Air, I'm looking at YOU).

/end opinion

ort888 · Mar 30, 2009, 09:01 PM

I haven't read through the thread so I'm sorry if this has come up... but what if rather then a netbook... Apple is working on some sort of Kindle Killer. A 10" Tablet media player that can display movies, ebooks, full color e-magazines, comic books, etc...?

jokell82 · Mar 30, 2009, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

I haven't read through the thread so I'm sorry if this has come up... but what if rather then a netbook... Apple is working on some sort of Kindle Killer. A 10" Tablet media player that can display movies, ebooks, full color e-magazines, comic books, etc...?

It's been speculated before - basically a very large iPod Touch that runs the full version of OS X.

I think a netbook is more likely, though...

Spheric Harlot · Mar 31, 2009, 01:40 AM

Except the 32GB iPod touch is $400.

The only reason (and quite probably really the *only* reason) that netbooks are such a fad (though already subsiding from what I can see) is because they're $400.

What advantage would Apple bring to the table if they offered one for $799 that isn't better covered by the low-end MacBook?

Big Mac · Mar 31, 2009, 02:27 AM

OS X out the box, the same reason why people put up with Apple not providing an xMac.

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but Sony has a highly priced netbook, so if Apple comes out with insane pricing for its netbook competitor it won't be the only outlier.

shifuimam · Mar 31, 2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

The only reason (and quite probably really the *only* reason) that netbooks are such a fad (though already subsiding from what I can see) is because they're $400.

I would disagree.

Netbooks have become popular because people are finally realizing that nobody needs a quad-core with six gig of ram and a 1GB GDDR3 video card.

Netbooks are great for anything but gaming and heavy graphic design - which means they meet the needs of at least 50% of home computer buyers. If all you do is listen to music, browse the net, chat, and do other similar things, netbooks are great. They're cheap, super portable, lightweight, and you can't really deny the cuteness factor.

I don't think that netbooks are a fad. I think that they've opened up the possibility that you can have ultra portable computer products without super high price premiums, and I suspect that laptops like these are here to stay.

OreoCookie · 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Have you seen the HP Mini 1000? The keyboard and screen are plenty large, and at the top end of size for the netbook category. You don't have to have a 13" screen and a full-size keyboard to have a usable and even excellent or nice keyboard and display.

No, can't say that I have. Only quite a few Asus, although, to be honest, I cannot recognize the brand most of the time. I have used a netbook by Asus and unless the HP is a lot, lot better, I wouldn't want to use it for anything with a standard desktop GUI.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

The only thing the Air has that the netbooks don't is a more powerful CPU - but the fact is, the Atom handles anything but gaming damn fine on its own. A 2.6GHz C2D just isn't remotely necessary for a browsing/chatting client machine.

We have a guest with a netbook (an Asus) running XP. It was so slow, it wasn't even funny anymore (I had to help copying and pasting from various web pages to Word). I can't see it being even remotely fast enough for anything I would like to do.

Regarding the AirBook: it is a luxury item and as such makes perfect sense. It has its own niche and is by far not the only player in the field. Netbooks don't compete in that niche. Netbooks are a poor attempt to bring mobile computer gadgets to the mass market. In two, three, four years' time, they may make the AirBook obsolete, but right now, they don't. A netbook done right would be a very appealing machine, but people mostly think of hardware right now rather than software/hardware solutions.

OreoCookie · Apr 1, 2009, 04:56 AM

Looks like HP and other netbook manufacturers are looking into Android as operating system for netbooks. I like the idea of having a UI that is adapted to smaller screens ...

Maflynn · Apr 1, 2009, 07:41 AM

Its a natural fit and given how android was developed (not just a phone specific OS), makes it a natural fit for netbooks on paper at least but as with many things on paper they don't always pan out. We'll have to wait and see how this plays out.

shifuimam · Apr 1, 2009, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

No, can't say that I have. Only quite a few Asus, although, to be honest, I cannot recognize the brand most of the time. I have used a netbook by Asus and unless the HP is a lot, lot better, I wouldn't want to use it for anything with a standard desktop GUI.

Which Asus do you have? Does it have a 1024x600 display? The original eeePC has an 800x480 display, which is definitely too small to really be usable. The WSVGA displays on netbooks today, however, are more than adequate, even for toolbar and palette heavy apps like Office and Photoshop.

We have a guest with a netbook (an Asus) running XP. It was so slow, it wasn't even funny anymore (I had to help copying and pasting from various web pages to Word). I can't see it being even remotely fast enough for anything I would like to do.

Again - which one was it? The Asus eeePC 701 and 900 use a 900MHz Intel Celeron M processor (which, at least in the case of the 701, is underclocked to 600MHz), which is going to show some performance issues.

Netbooks today use the 1.6GHz Atom, and I haven't had any performance complaints with my Aspire One or my HP Mini 1000 - and I really put my stuff through the gauntlet.

Netbooks are a poor attempt to bring mobile computer gadgets to the mass market. In two, three, four years' time, they may make the AirBook obsolete, but right now, they don't.

See, I'd disagree with that - it seems to me that netbooks are an attempt to bring ultra portable laptops to the mass market. Until now, such machines were considered luxury items from companies like Sony and Fujitsu, and came with a hefty price tag (usually $1500 or more).

There is an appeal to having a small notebook that runs a normal OS. For a college kid, you might buy a desktop (which is a lot cheaper for the specs), along with a netbook to take to classes and whatnot. For a small business, it brings mobility without a high price (which means that when your employees inevitably break something, replacements are much cheaper). For someone like me, who will openly admin to being an Internet addict, I can keep my netbook by my bed and use it in the morning to check forums, LiveJournal, blog sites, etc. - it's much smaller than my XPS M1330, and less unwieldy when I'm using it while laying in bed.

While you personally may not see much of a use for them, I don't think they're a fad or a poor attempt at something or anything else negative. Personally, I'm thrilled that this market has appeared and will unlikely buy another full-size laptop in the future, seeing as how a $300 machine is more than enough for my needs.

Big Mac · Apr 1, 2009, 09:05 AM

The only time a netbook makes sense to me is on long distance trips when I don't feel like bringing and risking a full notebook just for light usage. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be constrained by a small screen and slow(er) processor.

Eug · Apr 2, 2009, 02:16 PM

My guess is that Android will be a dismal failure on netbooks in the near to medium term. It's anyone's guess for the long term.

calverson · Apr 2, 2009, 02:32 PM

A while back I saw an article somewhere that had Ubuntu Mobile or something like that. Looked awesome at the time.

calverson · Apr 2, 2009, 02:35 PM

Oh, here's the link.

The screenshot:

I guess that it would be for touch-screen devices. I would not mind throwing that on my Tytn if it comes out.

nonhuman · Apr 2, 2009, 02:45 PM

Reminds me of the old Launcher from the OS 8&9 days.

starman · Apr 2, 2009, 02:46 PM

Isn't that the version that crashed and broke a lot?

nonhuman · Apr 2, 2009, 03:06 PM

Beats me, the Launcher was for losers.

calverson · Apr 3, 2009, 03:34 PM

Well I am all sure that we have seen this article that has this picture in it:

Specs (apparently):

• 10.4" WXGA display.
• 1280 x 768 pixel with LED backlighting.
• NVIDIA MCP79
• Intel Atom Z740 1.83GHz with 1MB L2 cache.
• 2GB DDR3-800.
• NVIDIA GeForce 9400M
• 64GB Solid State Drive.
• Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR, Wi-Fi 802.11a/b/g/n
• 1 x USB 2.0
• 1 x Mini Display Port
• Battery Li-Ion 5100mA

I claim fake.

And if real, too expensive.

calverson · Apr 3, 2009, 03:37 PM

And if such a product is released, well, like the Dell Adamo, I really dont think that it will sell that well and that the companies could be investing that money in ways to make cheaper products that are more likely to sell in the current economy.

Then again, I do have a 17" MacBook Pro and do spend WAY too much money on things that I don't need that are probably overpriced anyway just because they look good.

olePigeon · Apr 3, 2009, 03:57 PM

That's fake. It's a concept design from a Russian computer magazine.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 3, 2009, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That's fake. It's a concept design from a Russian computer magazine.

"Concept design" is an interesting euphemism for an April Fools' joke.

jokell82 · Apr 3, 2009, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

"Concept design" is an interesting euphemism for an April Fools' joke.

It was posted way before 4/1...

Eug · Apr 3, 2009, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by calverson

Well I am all sure that we have seen this article that has this picture in it:

-pic-

Specs (apparently):

• 10.4" WXGA display.
• 1280 x 768 pixel with LED backlighting.
• NVIDIA MCP79
• Intel Atom Z740 1.83GHz with 1MB L2 cache.
• 2GB DDR3-800.
• NVIDIA GeForce 9400M
• 64GB Solid State Drive.
• Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR, Wi-Fi 802.11a/b/g/n
• 1 x USB 2.0
• 1 x Mini Display Port
• Battery Li-Ion 5100mA

I claim fake.

And if real, too expensive.

That's a nice concept design. I'd buy one if it were cheaper, but I must admit if it did really come with a 64 GB SSD drive, the $899 price wouldn't be totally outrageous.

shifuimam · Apr 3, 2009, 09:30 PM

I can't imagine putting a midrange or high end GPU in a netbook. These things aren't remotely geared toward gaming - even if you had a GPU that could support it, the screen would suck.

How many of y'all actually have a netbook? I've got four, and let me tell you...aside from my XPS's ability to handle Guild Wars pretty damn well, I'm not remotely inclined to buy another full-size laptop again.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 3, 2009, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

It was posted way before 4/1...

It was PUBLISHED in the April issue of that magazine.

I keep having to remind myself, too, what life was like before the internet.

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Apr 4, 2009, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

The only reason (and quite probably really the *only* reason) that netbooks are such a fad (though already subsiding from what I can see) is because they're $400.

I'm curious what you're seeing- the latest market research projects netbook sales to grow 65% annually. Every single computer at the top of Amazon's best-sellers list of all PC hardware is a netbook. (Apple makes it's first showing at #20 with the 13" MacBook). Netbooks represent 30% of all consumer portable sales in Europe.

Fad? Maybe. But it certainly isn't subsiding right now.

In this economy, why would anyone think a $300-$400 mini-laptop wouldn't be wildly popular?

As others have pointed out, it wasn't all that long ago when people paid a premium for the convenience of a smaller size, even paired with limited processing power. I remember when anything even approaching the size and function of a netbook was $1600+. Now you can get better specs than those last-gen machines, for less than a standard sized laptop- a complete reversal of the old model.

That wouldn't be a huge seller? On what planet?

I don't understand the comparison to the MacBook Air really- the Air is the opposite end of the spectrum, following the 'old school' rule that says you must pay a hefty premium for svelte, not a price proportionate to size and weight. It's not even in the same product universe as the netbooks. There's no real correlation with either making the other obsolete.

calverson · Apr 4, 2009, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

How many of y'all actually have a netbook?

I don't have one.