[MacosNerd]

[RANT]
Popping over to the OSX forum, I cannot help but see all of the complaining and whining that's going on. Leopard is not even out yet and people are pissing and moaning. What's up with this.

So far they're complaining about the lack of Resolution Independence (I guess apple stated it would not be supported until 08 but people still want to complain about it)

The edu price - though I suspect a lot of people whining about this aren't even students.

A deep philosophical discussion is going on about the quality of wallpaper. I'm not even sure how many people even use the included wallpaper.

Of course in various hardware forums people are complaining about not getting a free upgrade to Leopard even though they bought their machines in AUGUST.

I cannot imagine the level of whining when Leopard actually hits the streets

[/RANT]

[brassplayersrock²]

happens with everything though. the older new imac = graphics card. mb = non-independent graphics card. new religion = other religion killing the guy trying to pass it on. "rock and or a roll" = devils music. humans are bound to find something that they dislike with anything new.

[Oneota]

While pretty much all of that complaining you listed isn't worth getting worked up about ($35 more! Oh noes!), Leopard certainly does have its share of stuff that is less-than-ideal.

Translucent menu bar = stupid and bad UI
Finder Sidebar can't be disabled and still retain access to the toolbar, like you can in Tiger
And don't even get me started on the UI disaster that is "Stacks" in the Dock...

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

Translucent menu bar = stupid and bad UI
Finder Sidebar can't be disabled and still retain access to the toolbar, like you can in Tiger
And don't even get me started on the UI disaster that is "Stacks" in the Dock...

The UI is a matter of taste, and I do expect people to be complaining about that. To be honest, I'm looking forward to them. I have not used the beta, since it was only available to developers, and I chose not to download it illegally. From what I've seen on the screen shots it does look interesting but the jury is out until I actually use it.

While I have not pre-ordered it, (I figure I'll pop by my local apple store and buy it) I'm looking forward to loading it on my system.

[rickey939]

I'm more impressed with the lack of "debug code" threads with Leopard....

[osiris]

It just better be faster than Tiger.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

The edu price - though I suspect a lot of people whining about this aren't even students.

I think a 72% price increase is substantial enough that complaints are warranted.

[Dork.]

There are always going to be people who complain about things that matter to them. This is The Internet -- complaining is one of the things we do best here.

I'm still annoyed that Apple hasn't put dedicated graphics in the MacBook. Rather than ranting, though, I'm simply making do with my 12" PB until either Apple caves, or I do (by either buying a MacBook anyway, or moving to a 15" MBP, which is larger than I like.)

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I think a 72% price increase is substantial enough that complaints are warranted.

Since I'm no longer a student, I have little sympathy for those who get a price break and yet continue to complain its not enough. If you cannot afford the upgrade, either save up until you can or don't upgrade.

That may sound harsh but really, I don't know too many students who don't own the latest and greatest electronics. If they can afford a lot of those toys they certainly can swing for the increased price of leopard.

[Jawbone54]

I'm excited about Leopard, and can't wait to get it on my system.

The translucent menu bar isn't freaking me out. I kind of like it, but I'll have to try it out Oct. 26 before I really make a decision on it. The lack of resolution independence...meh. I know other people care about this, but it's a non-issue for me.

The education discount getting yanked way back didn't make me happy, but it still only costs me $116, compared to the $200 Windows Vista Basic would run me.

Mac users are more fanatical about their OS, but they're also impossible to please. These people act like they're up in arms about Leopard, but you know they'll be installing it.

[wallinbl]

That's just too much money for an OS. I guess that makes me cheap. I'll get a new OS if I ever get a new computer. Hopefully, I won't run into the problem of losing application support.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I'm excited about Leopard, and can't wait to get it on my system.

The translucent menu bar isn't freaking me out. I kind of like it, but I'll have to try it out Oct. 26 before I really make a decision on it. The lack of resolution independence...meh. I know other people care about this, but it's a non-issue for me.

The education discount getting yanked way back didn't make me happy, but it still only costs me $116, compared to the $200 Windows Vista Basic would run me.

Mac users are more fanatical about their OS, but they're also impossible to please. These people act like they're up in arms about Leopard, but you know they'll be installing it.

You shoulda signed up for the Student Developer Connection for $100 and gotten a free copy of Leopard plus better-than-normal-education discounts on hardware.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Since I'm no longer a student, I have little sympathy for those who get a price break and yet continue to complain its not enough. If you cannot afford the upgrade, either save up until you can or don't upgrade.

That may sound harsh but really, I don't know too many students who don't own the latest and greatest electronics. If they can afford a lot of those toys they certainly can swing for the increased price of leopard.

And at that price they'll probably download it rather than save up. I know some of my friends plan on doing that...

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

You shoulda signed up for the Student Developer Connection for $100 and gotten a free copy of Leopard plus better-than-normal-education discounts on hardware.

...

What? I didn't know about this...

[Laminar]

Right here

For $99 you get a copy of OS X and one pretty good hardware discount. For example, you can get a MBP starting at $1599 instead of $1999.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Right here

For $99 you get a copy of OS X and one pretty good hardware discount. For example, you can get a MBP starting at $1599 instead of $1999.

You get more than just one copy of OS X. Whenever a new version comes out they mail you a copy for as long as you're a member.

[Laminar]

But if Apple releases a new OS every three years and it's $99/year then the benefit fades. When the Tiger educational price was $69 it wasn't a big deal but now that it's cheaper than the new price, it matters. I was planning on getting Leopard right away but now that it's going to be significantly more, I'm going to wait. Most of my money is going into my car right now.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

[RANT]
Popping over to the OSX forum, I cannot help but see all of the complaining and whining that's going on. Leopard is not even out yet and people are pissing and moaning. What's up with this

[/RANT]

SO why didn't you just post this in said thread?

This will just turn out to be another 10.5 rant thread.

There are a lot of things to rant about 10.5. Apple seemed to have rushed it. Unless they are hiding stuff still. Which I myself have came to doubt.

It's a sad sad affair.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Since I'm no longer a student, I have little sympathy for those who get a price break and yet continue to complain its not enough. If you cannot afford the upgrade, either save up until you can or don't upgrade.

That may sound harsh but really, I don't know too many students who don't own the latest and greatest electronics. If they can afford a lot of those toys they certainly can swing for the increased price of leopard.

I have a Mac that's provided by the VA as part of my vocational rehabilitation program. I do NOT get anything else-if I want to upgrade, it's on me. I'm not exactly hurting financially, but the extra $50 or so for my Mac is a pain, especially since the entire higher education community/industry is going more and more for a "nickel and dime the students for everything" mentality. My school is about to impose new fees that will add up to thousands more in fees every year, so a student's budgeting is completely irrelevant now-it's pay up or leave. So yes, it's not a huge thing by itself, but why can't Apple give us at least a reason why THIS upgrade should be so much more expensive than the previous OS X OS versions were. No reason given, just "pay up or leave." Not very friendly, Apple.

Oh, and we're keeping all the Leopard threads in the OS X forum...

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

[RANT]
I cannot imagine the level of whining when Leopard actually hits the streets
[/RANT]

My neither...a leopard out on the streets, I bet people will be whining about their arms or legs being dismembered. I bet a lot of people will also try to run away. I'm gonna stay locked in my house and I'll board up the windows.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

So yes, it's not a huge thing by itself, but why can't Apple give us at least a reason why THIS upgrade should be so much more expensive than the previous OS X OS versions were. No reason given, just "pay up or leave." Not very friendly, Apple.

Maybe not very friendly but few companies offer any reasons as to why they've increased the price of a product..

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

but why can't Apple give us at least a reason why THIS upgrade should be so much more expensive than the previous OS X OS versions were. No reason given, just "pay up or leave." Not very friendly, Apple.

Unless Apple unleashes something amazing like, an actual unified GUI or a really special extra feature that 10.4 didn't have, then I would agree.

Right now 10.5 seems as if it was rushed. And pushed out before it was fully done. I expect this from MS, but not Apple.

And I can't see why Apple would expect anyone to pay for what is basically still a beta OS.

I expect a 10.5.1 to show up very shortly after it's release. And a 10.5.2 shortly after that.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Right now 10.5 seems as if it was rushed. And pushed out before it was fully done. I expect this from MS, but not Apple.

And I can't see why Apple would expect anyone to pay for what is basically still a beta looking OS. I can't say as far as working goes as I haven't used it.

Not seeing the beta, I cannot answer if they've rushed it out of the door, but for what I have read (on apple.com) the updates do look enticing. Whether its over-promising and under-delivering a la M$ remains to be seen when the gold copy hits the streets.

If they did rush it out the door, I suspect the main cause was having the developers being pulled off the leopard team to work on the iphone earlier this year.

[mfbernstein]

Leopard, like Tiger, is mostly about polish. Little details. A feature here, a feature there. There aren't fundamental changes that will substantially affect the day-to-day user experience. Some people object to this (or think $130 is a lot to pay for it). Thus the 'whining.'

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

My neither...a leopard out on the streets, I bet people will be whining about their arms or legs being dismembered. I bet a lot of people will also try to run away. I'm gonna stay locked in my house and I'll board up the windows.

go excilceor!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

The UI is a matter of taste, and I do expect people to be complaining about that. To be honest, I'm looking forward to them. I have not used the beta, since it was only available to developers, and I chose not to download it illegally. From what I've seen on the screen shots it does look interesting but the jury is out until I actually use it.

While I have not pre-ordered it, (I figure I'll pop by my local apple store and buy it) I'm looking forward to loading it on my system.

No, the UI is *not* a matter of taste, it is a matter of the results of usability testing (testing which we haven't conducted). What you probably meant to say was that the *look* (or user experience, if you prefer the fancier term) is subject to taste.

[besson3c]

Usability wise, what might make the menu bar work is if there was an algorithm to adjust transparency automatically depending on the picture used. Pictures with a lot of high contrast stuff where the menu bar goes should receive far less transparency action than a picture that doesn't.

Does anybody know, just out of curiosity (I'll probably just disable this feature), whether these sorts of adjustments are made?

[MindFad]

Algorithmic menu bar transparency adjustments based on Desktop image contrast. Sure, that's in there. One of the top requested UI features, I think. I can't believe Apple didn't put it on their "feature" list! [/serious] [/not actually serious]

[passmaster16]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

You shoulda signed up for the Student Developer Connection for $100 and gotten a free copy of Leopard plus better-than-normal-education discounts on hardware.

When do you think student ADC members will see Leopard? I'm a member and was wondering if it would come as part of the Nov 07 mailing. Oddly enough, on Apple's site it states that you receive OS X when you sign up, which I did receive 10.4 in my welcome package. However. I do not recall it stating that we'd be entitled to future major OS releases as part of the membership. From what I hear though, they'll still ship out the latest OS X provided you're an active member.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Right now 10.5 seems as if it was rushed. And pushed out before it was fully done. I expect this from MS, but not Apple.

And I can't see why Apple would expect anyone to pay for what is basically still a beta OS.

I expect a 10.5.1 to show up very shortly after it's release. And a 10.5.2 shortly after that.

You know, people have said that about EVERY release of Mac OS X ever since 10.0.

Originally Posted by For 10.0

Right now 10.0 seems as if it was rushed. And pushed out before it was fully done. I expect this from MS, but not Apple.

And I can't see why Apple would expect anyone to pay for what is basically still a beta OS.

I expect a 10.0.1 to show up very shortly after it's release. And a 10.0.2 shortly after that.

10.0 was the only version where saying the above was totally justified. But look at Panther. There was a 10.3.1 out within a couple weeks of its release. And the same with Tiger. There was a 10.4.1 out within a couple weeks of its release. I don't expect any different with Leopard.

Examples. From This thread from September 2005: "And we all know that Tiger was rushed out the door as well." A few point releases later, and most people were very happy with Tiger.

And this one. From This thread from November 2003: "I think like others here do, concerning the fact that Apple probably rushed these 15 AL and Panther OS just to make them available for the public to buy ASAP." A few point releases later, and most people were very happy with Panther.

And this one, from September 2002 talking about 10.2: Post 1: "When is 10.2.1 going to be released to the public?" and Post 2: "Indeed, when? 10.2 has some *major* flaws... if 10.2.1 doesn't fix the networking issues, I'm gonna have to go back to 10.1.5, or ditch X entirely." A few point releases later, most people were very happy with Jaguar.

Same story every OS release, so if you really care about a stable, bug free OS, wait for a few point releases until you buy.

Historically, EVERY release of 10.x.0 has been followed by a 10.x.1 release within a month of the initial OS release.

[ghporter]

One non-whine here: with the higher student price, I'll have to wait for the first or second bug fix release because I won't be able to afford to upgrade for quite some time. And my classmates who are not as well off as I am will probably wait a lot longer-like maybe never upgrade.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

The education discount getting yanked way back didn't make me happy, but it still only costs me $116, compared to the $200 Windows Vista Basic would run me.

Windows Vista Home Basic upgrade (which in many ways is the closest Vista edition to OS X [no media apps, no virtualization support, etc]) is $73 retail.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

Finder Sidebar can't be disabled and still retain access to the toolbar, like you can in Tiger

It that true? Please... someone say it isn't so.
Why would they deactivate a simple thing like that?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

It that true? Please... someone say it isn't so.
Why would they deactivate a simple thing like that?

It's really not possible to say until we see the release version. The latest beta that anyone who isn't bound by NDA has doesn't include such an option, but there are some minor bugs related to the sidebar as well. It's possible that if you just removed all items from the sidebar that it would disappear, but it's currently not possible to do that because some of the things that are in the sidebar don't show up as options that you can turn off.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

It that true? Please... someone say it isn't so.
Why would they deactivate a simple thing like that?

Because it's a fundamental part of the Finder window? I can't really see why you would not want the sidebar

But yes, you can click the upper right pill-button and use that instead if you are a stickler for minimalism

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

[RANT]I cannot imagine the level of whining when Leopard actually hits the streets[/RANT]

I've been using Macs since the very first 128K model hit the streets, and in all those years I have realized that the absolute favorite past time of Mac users is to complain about how the lack of their pet feature renders the entire operating system unusable. I remember people complaining about freaking Multifinder, for Pete's sake.

[brassplayersrock²]

y'all do understand that the online student price ≠ offline student price right? go to any college computer sales place and you can pick it up for 70 something dollars

[TheoCryst]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

y'all do understand that the online student price ≠ offline student price right? go to any college computer sales place and you can pick it up for 70 something dollars

That's what I'll be doing. Granted, it means that I'll have to wait a bit longer before I can get my hands on Leopard (my Uni's bookstore tends to get things much later than they are actually released), but it'll be worth the wait.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Same story every OS release, so if you really care about a stable, bug free OS, wait for a few point releases until you buy.

Historically, EVERY release of 10.x.0 has been followed by a 10.x.1 release within a month of the initial OS release.

That's because no matter how much you beta test you're going to find all of th bugs until general release.

Unlike the some of the people complaining about the UI, and lack of Resolution Independence, I am looking forward to Leopard.

Perhaps to fit in I'll complain that it runs slow on my G4 cube

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Not seeing the beta,

I wont go into it in this thread, but if you are interested I an send you links.

If they did rush it out the door, I suspect the main cause was having the developers being pulled off the leopard team to work on the iphone earlier this year.

My guess too. 10.5 has a unfinished feel. Be ready for updates soon after. That is if Apple isn't still just all about the iphone.

I liked it better when such gadgets were extensions of their OS. And not acting like a replacement..

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by mfbernstein 

Leopard, like Tiger, is mostly about polish. Little details.

It's the little details that Leopard is missing. Mismatching GUIs and a non-standard interface.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, the UI is *not* a matter of taste, it is a matter of the results of usability testing (testing which we haven't conducted). What you probably meant to say was that the *look* (or user experience, if you prefer the fancier term) is subject to taste.

A GUI is the look and usage of it all. It's the whole package.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

You know, people have said that about EVERY release of Mac OS X ever since 10.0.

And for the most part, these people have had valid reasons for saying so. 10.0 was dog slow. Then Apple started introducing 5 different GUIs into one OS making it look like a OS that can't decide on what to "wear" this all screams "unpolished" and "incomplete" Apple has been doing this a lot lately. And 10.5 it's even worse.

10.0 was the only version where saying the above was totally justified.

As far as being SLOW. Yes 10.0 and 10.1 were both slow. 10.2 sped things up. I am not talking about "performance"

But look at Panther. There was a 10.3.1 out within a couple weeks of its release.

Right, these are bugs they never got to before releasing it.

And the same with Tiger. There was a 10.4.1 out within a couple weeks of its release. I don't expect any different with Leopard.

I'm not, and it doesn't look like we disagree here. My complaint about Leopard is, atleast from the screenshots on Apple's site, a GUI mess.

Examples. From This thread from September 2005: "And we all know that Tiger was rushed out the door as well." A few point releases later, and most people were very happy with Tiger.

Happier than they were than the OS before it. Of course. Apple has been good with making the OS FASTER. Which I have no complaints about. 10.0.0 may have been slow. It's GUI may have hurt a lot of people's eyes. But at least the GUI was consistent. There wasn't a ton of GUI ideas all over the place like there is now with 10.5. It comes out as convoluted and more complex than it should be. Applications shouldn't have different scrollbars and thumbs and GUI elements than the Finder. They should really all match. I know why it's called "unified" but there is nothing really unified about it.

Same story every OS release, so if you really care about a stable, bug free OS, wait for a few point releases until you buy.

I wasn't referring to stability. I understand about that.

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Unlike the some of the people complaining about the UI, and lack of Resolution Independence, I am looking forward to Leopard.

I am looking forward to Leopard too. Just because I am upset that Apple is going the wrong direction with Leopard GUI wise, doesn't mean I am not excited about it. As I have been changing Apple GUI mistakes in OS X for years. Starting with the stripes that I said from day one that Apple would eventually take out because they were to garish and annoying. Of course I was told I didn't know what I was talking about then. That the stripes were fine, and that is what Aqua looks like. And I better get used to it.

Then Apple started making the stripes less and less apparent till they took them out completely. Just like I predicted they would.

Being as just as many people, if not more are complaining about the unified look of unified as there was OS X having those awful stripes, I don't see OS X keeping the few Aqua elements it has within Unified for very long.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Because it's a fundamental part of the Finder window? I can't really see why you would not want the sidebar

Because sometimes it gets in the way, makes a Finder window bigger than it needs to be, and isn't always necessary.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

But yes, you can click the upper right pill-button and use that instead if you are a stickler for minimalism

...and lose the toolbar in the process. In Tiger, you can have the toolbar, but turn off the Sidebar. Can't do that in Leopard.

As a bonus, here's another rant:
In Tiger, you can click-hold a folder in the Dock and navigate its contents via the pop-up menu. So, if you put your HD in the Dock, you have fast, one-click (-and-drag) access to your entire filesystem. Or, put your Home Directory there and have one-click access to all your files. Nice, right? But watch out, here comes "Stacks" which replaces that with a useless, animated non-menu. Can you still get to the file-listing menu? Nope! Why would you want to when "Stacks" is so pretty? Never mind it takes 10x as long to get to the file you were interested in!

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I wont go into it in this thread, but if you are interested I an send you links.

Nah, we're so close to the real thing I'll wait and besides I'm down to only one Mac (intel mac, I still have my cube) and I need that for work. I sold my MacPro a few weeks ago to pay down the credit card.

My guess too. 10.5 has a unfinished feel. Be ready for updates soon after. That is if Apple isn't still just all about the iphone.

I liked it better when such gadgets were extensions of their OS. And not acting like a replacement..

My only hope is that its a more consistent feel, apple seems to invoke a new theme (or update the existing one) with nearly every release but not carry it consistently through the OS and/or apps. If they started doing that perhaps the unfinished feeling would be reduced.

I agree however that a .1 will button up the OS (any OS), M$ is still struggling to get SP1 out the door for Vista but then that OS is a travesty - a mismash of copied GUI elements from OSX, some XP internals, a new kernel and a frustrating security model. On paper when they started out it had some nice things, but as usual M$ over promised and under delivered. To bring this back on subject, I hope apple doesn't fall into this trap, especially since they're now juggling, computers, ipods, and now iphones. its easy to take your eye off of one product to focus on the other.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

...and lose the toolbar in the process. In Tiger, you can have the toolbar, but turn off the Sidebar. Can't do that in Leopard.

As a bonus, here's another rant:
In Tiger, you can click-hold a folder in the Dock and navigate its contents via the pop-up menu. So, if you put your HD in the Dock, you have fast, one-click (-and-drag) access to your entire filesystem. Or, put your Home Directory there and have one-click access to all your files. Nice, right? But watch out, here comes "Stacks" which replaces that with a useless, animated non-menu. Can you still get to the file-listing menu? Nope! Why would you want to when "Stacks" is so pretty? Never mind it takes 10x as long to get to the file you were interested in!

I am just surfing the net right now. There are LOTS of people complaining about a lot of things about Leopard. I am sure a huge update will be waiting for those that are going to early adopt it.

I am still waiting to see before I jump into it. I know someone that has the final build, and was offered it. But I'll wait.

I used to be more brave than this.

The only thing I really think that sucks about Mac specific forums is, no matter if your complaint about OS X is valid or not, you get the load of fanboys that think Apple can do no wrong that will attack you simply for pointing out inconsistencies and bugs.

It's just an operating system. It doesn't have feelings to hurt.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

As a bonus, here's another rant:
In Tiger, you can click-hold a folder in the Dock and navigate its contents via the pop-up menu. So, if you put your HD in the Dock, you have fast, one-click (-and-drag) access to your entire filesystem. Or, put your Home Directory there and have one-click access to all your files. Nice, right? But watch out, here comes "Stacks" which replaces that with a useless, animated non-menu. Can you still get to the file-listing menu? Nope! Why would you want to when "Stacks" is so pretty? Never mind it takes 10x as long to get to the file you were interested in!

They've already said you can turn them off...

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

They've already said you can turn them off...

Stacks? No, you can't. Unless you can provide a link, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The only thing I really think that sucks about Mac specific forums is, no matter if your complaint about OS X is valid or not, you get the load of fanboys that think Apple can do no wrong that will attack you simply for pointing out inconsistencies and bugs.

It's just an operating system. It doesn't have feelings to hurt.

But then you could also ask yourself how necessary it is to repeat the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Yes, we know Apple could have done a better job on the scroll bars and we know there are other inconsistencies throughout the OS.

There's always going to be stuff in UI revisions we don't like and people complained just as much (if not more) when Apple first announced the new Mac OS X 10.3 Panther UI. It's history repeating itself.

Frankly I'm just hoping Max will make an updated Aqua Extreme version for Mac OS X Leopard. Always been a great fan, and it still is the only 3rd party theme I ever used on my Macs.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Frankly I'm just hoping Max will make an updated Aqua Extreme version for Mac OS X Leopard. Always been a great fan, and it still is the only 3rd party theme I ever used on my Macs.

Is he even active in theming any more?