[ringo]

What exactly was the point of the Crusades?

Oddly enough, it was an effort on the part of the Christians to take land that was Muslim controlled.

The world goes round and round and round and .....

[theolein]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>


good grief...don't apologize!

That was the funniest thing I've seen you write all week.

I was starting to think you had no sense of humor.</STRONG>

I'm sorry,... er.... whoops!

[argod]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>Um, I need an education here. If the Aryan Invasion Theory is wrong, why are northern Indians lightskinned compared to the southern? And why are the higher castes lighter then the lower?

Just curious. Agreed with most of the last post.</STRONG>

I have already covered my views on the theory in an another thread
couple weeks ago. So I will just give this link.
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_histor...n_frawley.html

[argod]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>What exactly was the point of the Crusades?

Oddly enough, it was an effort on the part of the Christians to take land that was Muslim controlled.

The world goes round and round and round and .....</STRONG>

It was also to kill the jews (prior to this time jews were the
only one allowed to charge interest on a loan).
It was also to kill the witches.
Kings used it get the church off their backs.
It was also to kill the christian heretics.
Lot of other reasons.
Crusade in europe was different from the one in the Middle East.

Interestingly, it was after the crusaders
came back that Europe learn to bathe, eat
spicy foods. Thus their need to go find India to cut the muslim middle men.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

It was also to kill the jews (prior to this time jews were the
only one allowed to charge interest on a loan).
It was also to kill the witches.
Kings used it get the church off their backs.
It was also to kill the christian heretics.
Lot of other reasons.
Crusade in europe was different from the one in the Middle East.</STRONG>

Ummm no. Maybe you should read a few western history books. Oh wait, only your brand of Indian history books tell the truths. You seem pretty extreme?

Are you related to those Indians running around setting fire to Muslims?

Oh yes, I know that they started with that train thing. Don't you have a court system in India to handle this sort of thing?

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: TomCondon ]

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>


good grief...don't apologize!

That was the funniest thing I've seen you write all week.

I was starting to think you had no sense of humor.</STRONG>

if you think that was funny, you ought to have a really lame sense of humor.
but you probably know shit about hinduism itself to not repect it and laugh at that extremely immature attempt at being funny.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

You need to go talk to your pope. What the f are the missionaries doing
in India when it is illegal to do so. What the f was Mother Teresa doing
in Calcutta. I do not want to recount entire history of India vis-a-vis christendom since 1500.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]</STRONG>

they were/are trying to save a declining religion. that explains it perfectly.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

I don't give a shit how many Indians you know. It does not matter, I don't care what platitude you use to describe America.
My comments reflect your defense of missionarism and ignorance of pope's view on hinduism. Or even the statements made by the state department
regarding missionarism.
I understand perfectly. Why don't you try converting them.
Make my day.</STRONG>

If we are such the great Satan, why are you here? I have no problems with foreigners coming to America for work. They are perfectly free to piss all over us. But I just don't get why they would subject themselves to us if we are such degenerates as a nation and a culture.

Hindus rule!

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: TomCondon ]

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

Ummm no. Maybe you should read a few western history books.

</STRONG>

Lets have your version than. Bearer of truth and righteousness.

[ringo]

What about Hinduism was/is declining. It's just as valid as any other religion.

Originally posted by Macfreak7

they were/are trying to save a declining religion. that explains it perfectly.

When was/is hinduism in decline? It's just as valid as any other faith. Works fine for the Hindus.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

If we are such the great Satan, why are you here? I have no problems with foreigners coming to America for work. They are perfectly free to piss all over us. But I just don't get why they would subject themselves to us if we are such degenerates ans a nation and a culture.

Hindus rule!</STRONG>

What was the East India Company doing in India. Do you really have
to ask this question.

Don't **** with me or I will send an email to your team lead.

[argod]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>What about Hinduism was/is declining. It's just as valid as any other religion.



When was/is hinduism in decline? It's just as valid as any other faith. Works fine for the Hindus.</STRONG>

I think he is talking about christianity.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>What about Hinduism was/is declining. It's just as valid as any other religion.



When was/is hinduism in decline? It's just as valid as any other faith. Works fine for the Hindus.</STRONG>

err...... i was talking about the religion that the missionaries were/are propagating.
but yeah, hinduism is pretty much declining too.

with widespread communication around the world.. there is bound to be a decline in every culture/religion and a creation of a more "mixed" and "tolerant" culture.... or so one would think.
but of course its hard to acccept that. so, instead, we go on trying to save our religion... which seems to be leading to violence, and nothing more.
(this thread is a perfect example even)

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>


Lets have your version than. Bearer of truth and righteousness.</STRONG>

Us christians were trying to get at you heathen Hindus. After we conquered you, we intended to steal your culture and your land. Those damn Muslims got in the way.

That was in jest.

If you want to learn about the western historical perspective on the Crusades, read a f**king histroy book. I doubt your mind is open enough to do it, though. You are pretty pissy and pious about this all. Relax and enjoy this fine free society, even if you have to put up with all the Christian missionary degenerates.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

What was the East India Company doing in India. Do you really have
to ask this question.

Don't **** with me or I will send an email to your team lead.</STRONG>

Feel free a**wipe. This isn't India. We have free speech here. And I believe the East India Company was British, not American. There is a difference, you know.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

Us christians were trying to get at you heathen Hindus. After we conquered you, we intended to steal your culture and your land. Those damn Muslims got in the way.

That was in jest.

If you want to learn about the western historical perspective on the Crusades, read a f**king histroy book. I doubt your mind is open enough to do it, though. You are pretty pissy and pious about this all. Relax and enjoy this fine free society, even if you have to put up with all the Christian missionary degenerates.</STRONG>

If my version is wrong in broad strokes. It would not take you long to either give your version or refute it.
come on provide some link or something. Prove that you know something.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>


If my version is wrong in broad strokes. It would not take you long to either give your version or refute it.
come on provide some link or something. Prove that you know something.</STRONG>

I know you are f**ked in the head.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

I know you are f**ked in the head.</STRONG>

That does not refute anything. Come on, I am waiting.
You are not going to turn down a challenge are you.
How are you going to show you face in other threads.
Can't you argue with a lunatic.

[TNproud2b]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>

if you think that was funny, you ought to have a really lame sense of humor.
but you probably know shit about hinduism itself to not repect it and laugh at that extremely immature attempt at being funny.</STRONG>

Worse than that, homie, I don't know jackshit about ANY religion whatsoever.

Sorta makes me the only one around here with an unbiased opinion, now doesn't it?

[argod]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>

Worse than that, homie, I don't know jackshit about ANY religion whatsoever.

Sorta makes me the only one around here with an unbiased opinion, now doesn't it?</STRONG>

Since when is ignorance equates to non-bias.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

Since when is ignorance equates to non-bias.</STRONG>

lol
take it easy already

[Face Ache]

Every problem in the world comes down to selfishness, whether it's individuals or nations. You can use any argument, no matter how baseless, to support your selfish cause as long as it's slightly plausible, confusing and you can keep thowing spanners into the dialog to avoid actually looking at the resolution.

A little empathy goes a long way.

Imagine this: Israel/Palestine or India/Pakistan �

"You have Jerusalem/Kashmir"

"No, no, you have it, I insist."

"No, please, you take it..."

"Don't make me hurt you... You have it..."

"Well okay but you must come around for tea on Tuesday".

See. Easily solved. Peace all round. Large portions.

[theolein]

Argod. since you constantly post on these boards about how evil everything is that isn't confined to the Indian Subcontinent, I think you were actually asked a very good question back there: If you hate it so much in the US, why are you there? I mean it's pretty obvious that with an attitude like yours, you aren't going to make many friends. So why do you persist? I mean, you're living in the USA. Obviously you went there for some reason, unless perhaps you were young and your parents dragged you over. You sound like someone who's lonely and doesn't feel accepted and needs some kind of crutch to justify his grudges. I dunno, why don't you talk about that instead of your endless monologue about how evil everything is except Hinduism?

[argod]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>Argod. since you constantly post on these boards about how evil everything is that isn't confined to the Indian Subcontinent, I think you were actually asked a very good question back there: If you hate it so much in the US, why are you there? I mean it's pretty obvious that with an attitude like yours, you aren't going to make many friends. So why do you persist? I mean, you're living in the USA. Obviously you went there for some reason, unless perhaps you were young and your parents dragged you over. You sound like someone who's lonely and doesn't feel accepted and needs some kind of crutch to justify his grudges. I dunno, why don't you talk about that instead of your endless monologue about how evil everything is except Hinduism?</STRONG>

Well since this is a thread about India. I am talking about India.
Only other time I debated this subject with you was when you gave the pakistani position on kashmir. Also you advocated that India
invaded bangladesh and sri-lanka.
When I challenged that you made a similar
statement about my mental state.

Nowhere did I use the word evil to describe the other side or anything.

You choose to focus on one line which reflected that I did not want to debate. and TomC choose to focus of how catholicism is not anti-hindu.
From there it just cascaded.

You called my El-Queda, I did not attack you. I smoke crack, I am crazy,
I am arrogant, I am narrow minded.
When I challenge TomC, he could not even answer a simple question.
So I am aggressive, it is not a crime. I don't need answer to you or anyone else how I choose to debate.

Like I said before to you, what you read into in my post is your problem.
I am not hear to make friends with you. Especially when you don't bring
anything to the discussion. Not a single point of substance was
refuted except for my view of crusade which was not backed when challenged.

you must be moth because all you do is dive right into my flames.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[KellyHogan]

You're all gone mad like the Muslim separatists who think an Islamic state is a utopia.

Single religion theocratic states are dead. They never work because you need diversity for their to be an exchange of ideas, economic flow and also new ideas which propel society forward.

What you have in India and Palestine is that the Muslims came and built mosques on Jewish and Hindu temples - very important ones - thinking that one day all the Jews and Hindus would be gone and only Muslims would remain. A bad plan basically. There are still people today who practise Egyptian and Babylonian religion. You can't kill off any belief system because you can't oppress people.

The Christians have done the same in Goa and Tamil Nadu but to a lesser extent. They mostly carried off Indians as slave workers and settled them in the West Indies and South America. If you go to Surinam or Trinidad today you will see the ethnic mix of Indian, Native American and African. And many of them are still Hindu. You can't win every soul.

So logically we should look at Pakistan and say 'What have you done since 1947?'. They haven't done anything apart from supply cheap leather to GAP. So how can they claim Kashmir when it has been part of India forever? How can they even claim Pakistan when it has been India since forever?

Of course, like the situation in Palestine we can't ask all the Muslims to go to Arabia. There has to be new solutions. The only solution is for Pakistan to become part of India again. The Europeans are going on about a United Europe so why not a United Asia(from Israel right across to Polynesia), United Africa and so on?

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>
... we can't ask all the Muslims to go to Arabia...</STRONG>

Of course not. Pakistani Muslims aren't from Arabia, only their religion is.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by ringo:

<STRONG>What exactly was the point of the Crusades?</STRONG>

It was, in part, a response to the fall of Byzantium.

[theolein]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

Well since this is a thread about India. I am talking about India.
Only other time I debated this subject with you was when you gave the pakistani position on kashmir. Also you advocated that India
invaded bangladesh and sri-lanka.
When I challenged that you made a similar
statement about my mental state.

Nowhere did I use the word evil to describe the other side or anything.

You choose to focus on one line which reflected that I did not want to debate. and TomC choose to focus of how catholicism is not anti-hindu.
From there it just cascaded.

You called my El-Queda, I did not attack you. I smoke crack, I am crazy,
I am arrogant, I am narrow minded.
When I challenge TomC, he could not even answer a simple question.
So I am aggressive, it is not a crime. I don't need answer to you or anyone else how I choose to debate.

Like I said before to you, what you read into in my post is your problem.
I am not hear to make friends with you. Especially when you don't bring
anything to the discussion. Not a single point of substance was
refuted except for my view of crusade which was not backed when challenged.

you must be moth because all you do is dive right into my flames.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: argod ]</STRONG>

No, you little creep, YOU don't get the point, or any point, in fact. For you there is no such thing as debate, and that is why people here dislike you intensely. Read your own posts. It doesn't make any difference to you whether the topic is about marshmallows, Macintosh computers or underpowered Neons, you rant off on the same topic over and over again like a stuck record, insult everyone who doesn't have your own fanatical opinion, or even those who are just not interested in your arrogant bigotry. You always claim to know everything about all the world's religions and how all your views are the only correct ones. This is why I asked about you personally, because I wondered what kind of life you have had and what causes you to be way you are? Whether India or pakistan anihilate one another in a nuclear war is a frightening proposition are more or less beyond my control, and I mainly find it sad that in that part of the world, so much killing is a daily occurrence. I don't think any country is holy and India is definitely not, either.

Apart from that I'll say what I said to you in my last post . I think you sound like and angry, lonely person who needs an outlet for his frustrations and someone to blame. I also think you are a completely frightened coward, because you never let on as to who you are and how you live.

But, it's your choice, so do what you like. Just don't expect others to take you seriously.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: theolein ]

[Hawkeye_a]

argod,
whats ur definition of respect ? there are 90% hindus, 8% Muslims and probably less than 2% Christians in India today. I lived there for a couple of years, and i must say, if there's any place thats raceist, it's India. Look at the percentages again.
When i was there, all i heard about was Preists n Nuns getting killed or raped, and churches being burnt. And if u want to talk about "respect" what do u have to say about the demolition of that mosque in northern India ? "respect" ... how would you like it if a temple was demolished and a mosque built on top of it ?
And after that, u expect the rest of the muslim and christian world to respect hindus ? get real. read the facts not the propoganda.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

No, you little creep, YOU don't get the point, or any point, in fact. For you there is no such thing as debate, and that is why people here dislike you intensely. Read your own posts. It doesn't make any difference to you whether the topic is about marshmallows, Macintosh computers or underpowered Neons, you rant off on the same topic over and over again like a stuck record, insult everyone who doesn't have your own fanatical opinion, or even those who are just not interested in your arrogant bigotry. You always claim to know everything about all the world's religions and how all your views are the only correct ones. This is why I asked about you personally, because I wondered what kind of life you have had and what causes you to be way you are? Whether India or pakistan anihilate one another in a nuclear war is a frightening proposition are more or less beyond my control, and I mainly find it sad that in that part of the world, so much killing is a daily occurrence. I don't think any country is holy and India is definitely not, either.

Apart from that I'll say what I said to you in my last post . I think you sound like and angry, lonely person who needs an outlet for his frustrations and someone to blame. I also think you are a completely frightened coward, because you never let on as to who you are and how you live.

But, it's your choice, so do what you like. Just don't expect others to take you seriously.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: theolein ]</STRONG>

do you always make it a point to get so personal just because you have nothing better to post in a thread about the topic?

[TNproud2b]

He's good at it tho.

let it ride.

[Hawkeye_a]

P.S.&gt;&gt; argod, most of the christian and muslim friends i have from India, dont want to have anything to do with it, just cause of racism towards them. Most of them have immigrated to Canada, U.S, Australia, New Zealand, etc,etc... You seem to diss Mother Teressa. She is one of the very few people i actually admire from this centuary.(along with Ghandi by the way), if you read the books or even watch the movies, you will see what motivates these people, it's not getting people to convert. You honestly think Ghandi wanted conflict between the Hindus and Muslims ?
I'm sure to you a person you washes the sores of leapors in Calcutta symbolizes some sort of evil, and the tyranical rule of your government which has nothing better to do than change the names of major Indian cities (Bombay-&gt;Mumbai,etc) is a form of absolute goodness.
The Catholic church has done so,e terrible things in the past....so has every other religion, and that does not justify what the 90% of hindus in India are doing to the minorities.

[Macfreak7]

ye_a:
<STRONG>argod,
whats ur definition of respect ? there are 90% hindus, 8% Muslims and probably less than 2% Christians in India today. I lived there for a couple of years, and i must say, if there's any place thats raceist, it's India. Look at the percentages again.
When i was there, all i heard about was Preists n Nuns getting killed or raped, and churches being burnt. And if u want to talk about "respect" what do u have to say about the demolition of that mosque in northern India ? "respect" ... how would you like it if a temple was demolished and a mosque built on top of it ?
And after that, u expect the rest of the muslim and christian world to respect hindus ? get real. read the facts not the propoganda.</STRONG>[/QUOTE]

firstly, your figures arent precise. i dont have the current factual figures, so i'm not even going to attempt to correct you on that.
then, ask your self, why is that happening now (in the last 5 or so years) and not since the begining of recorded indian history?
in case you dont know, its because missionaries have started to piss the local people off, by CONVERTING people. of course i dont know HOW, but i doubt if its done by any fair means. and why do i have that doubt? because i know hinduism, and i know christianity (definitely not all of either&gt; i went to a christian school), and so i know that christianity is not impressive enough to cause a person to convert to it from any other religion.

i guess that is part of what argod has been talking about. but it seems no one can believe that, so they get personal. thats probably the only way out of it.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>P.S.&gt;&gt; argod, most of the christian and muslim friends i have from India, dont want to have anything to do with it, just cause of racism towards them. Most of them have immigrated to Canada, U.S, Australia, New Zealand, etc,etc... You seem to diss Mother Teressa. She is one of the very few people i actually admire from this centuary.(along with Ghandi by the way), if you read the books or even watch the movies, you will see what motivates these people, it's not getting people to convert. You honestly think Ghandi wanted conflict between the Hindus and Muslims ?
I'm sure to you a person you washes the sores of leapors in Calcutta symbolizes some sort of evil, and the tyranical rule of your government which has nothing better to do than change the names of major Indian cities (Bombay-&gt;Mumbai,etc) is a form of absolute goodness.
The Catholic church has done so,e terrible things in the past....so has every other religion, and that does not justify what the 90% of hindus in India are doing to the minorities.</STRONG>

its Gandhi, not "Ghandi"

and in fact, if you look at indian history (which again, i doubt you have EVER done) you would realize, that people of all religions lived happily together UNTIL there was some sort of injustice being done. this held true during the Mughal Rule too. Alot of the Mughal Kings where pretty damn good to Hindu's and followers of other religions, its only when they, for example, started to rule unjustly... did the Hindus react with a rebellion.

ahh.. gotta go to class now.. later

[Hawkeye_a]

I do have Hindu friends, and i have nothing against their religion. The fact that i cannot spell too well does not change my point. And oh yeah, im sure theres someone out there who is going to get accurate percentages of the 1billion+ population of India.
The percentages given above ARE NOT ACCURATE. those were the percentages in the mid 90s from newspapers(indian and otherwise), and im preety sure they havent changed too much in recent years. and even if they have, my point is that there is an overwhelming majority of hindus.

I have studied Indian history(but not in depth, the names are impossible to read ) and i know that the monument that "represents" india , the Taj Mahal, was in fact built by a muslim.

My point and contribution to this thread is this:
You have a huge majority trying to wipe out the minorities in a "democratic" state. Give WHATEVER reason you may, it will not be substantial to justify the wide spread blood shed.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Hawkeye_a ]

[roger_ramjet]

[quote]Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>For one thing he didn't even mention Sikhs or Buddhists.

<STRONG>... then, ask your self, why is that happening now (in the last 5 or so years) and not since the begining of recorded indian history?</STRONG>

The last five years? Why do you think there was a partition in the first place? Violent religious conflict is hardly new to India.

[argod]

theolein,

Here is something we can both agree on. You can stay away from
my posts. I will do the same. I will further pledge to
ignore any threads you start.

If anyone else wants this agreement. Speak up now.

[argod]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>argod,
whats ur definition of respect ? there are 90% hindus, 8% Muslims and probably less than 2% Christians in India today. I lived there for a couple of years, and i must say, if there's any place thats raceist, it's India. Look at the percentages again.
When i was there, all i heard about was Preists n Nuns getting killed or raped, and churches being burnt. And if u want to talk about "respect" what do u have to say about the demolition of that mosque in northern India ? "respect" ... how would you like it if a temple was demolished and a mosque built on top of it ?
And after that, u expect the rest of the muslim and christian world to respect hindus ? get real. read the facts not the propoganda.</STRONG>

Please read 2 page worth of material before you make statements
like how would I like if temple was demolished and mosque was built on
top. Obviously you have not read entire thread, nor do you know
any history. We DON'T want missionarism in India.

Here is what the west has brought to India:
Indians lost our respect for their own history, traditions, technology, science, medicine, language. It became a third world country.

Like I said in my first post, if you have historical background than
you can come up with a valid answer for the question of Indian and Pakistan.

Obviously, you want respect to be a one way street. 500 year of history
is irrelevant but they are still evil and need to converted to your
wonderful religion and all of sudden they will repent and no longer be
infidels, idol worshipers (some people consider Catholicism - idol worship, non-monotheistic religion), heathens, etc.

Oh ya, we are the most racist country, so we need to converted.
If this not pure propaganda than nothing is, the same people who brought the following: caste is evil, they are not civilized, aryan invasion to justify their own invasion. Hinduism is devil worship.

Nobody invited the west to come to India, but they came any way.

[BMWDrum]

Personally, I am athiest, so I think that all religions are a load of crap, and all that follow are sheep!

I don't understand why people have to believe in something to make it through life. It's too short of a journey and people should just have fun and live life to the fullest. I think people are hypocrites when they say they do these things mentioned above, but are still go to church every Sunday

[argod]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>I do have Hindu friends, and i have nothing against their religion. The fact that i cannot spell too well does not change my point. And oh yeah, im sure theres someone out there who is going to get accurate percentages of the 1billion+ population of India.
The percentages given above ARE NOT ACCURATE. those were the percentages in the mid 90s from newspapers(indian and otherwise), and im preety sure they havent changed too much in recent years. and even if they have, my point is that there is an overwhelming majority of hindus.

I have studied Indian history(but not in depth, the names are impossible to read ) and i know that the monument that "represents" india , the Taj Mahal, was in fact built by a muslim.

My point and contribution to this thread is this:
You have a huge majority trying to wipe out the minorities in a "democratic" state. Give WHATEVER reason you may, it will not be substantial to justify the wide spread blood shed.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Hawkeye_a ]</STRONG>

Oh the Taj Mahal. Here some question for you.
- What direction does it face, and does it correspond with muslim building.
- How many wives did Shah Jahan have.
- Did he rape his own daughter (jahanara) and say the following: 'a gardner has every right to taste the fruit he has planted'!
- Did his own son imprison him in a dungeon.
- Is the construction recorded in their history. This from a people who recorded how many temples they destroyed.
Is name itself islamic or even word in their language.

I don't want this to be an image of India. The fact that you do
say something about you.

[argod]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<STRONG>

The last five years? Why do you think there was a partition in the first place? Violent religious conflict is hardly new to India.</STRONG>

I think he was talking about violence against christians.
Thus the five year figure.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>
My point and contribution to this thread is this:
You have a huge majority trying to wipe out the minorities in a "democratic" state. Give WHATEVER reason you may, it will not be substantial to justify the wide spread blood shed.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Hawkeye_a ]</STRONG>

if you think thats what hindus want, then let me assure, it wouldnt be a TRY at all.... it would've been carried out as soon as the currect government was formed a couple of years ago.
just like everyone, we too hate fundamentalists. thats what those missionaries have become for us, and again, if the question "why" arises, its because of what i mentioned in my post above.

argh, this is getting circular.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<STRONG>

The last five years? Why do you think there was a partition in the first place? Violent religious conflict is hardly new to India.</STRONG>

THE PARTITION WAS BECAUSE OF THE ENGLISH!
DIVIDE AND RULE..... thats what they wanted, thats what they taught, and thats what WE GOT!

see... you have NO clue about the history of indian culture so you think, just from the last 100 years, that we've always had religious conflicts.

and yeah.. the 5 years i specified was in context to what Haweye_a said. make sure you read every post in the thread before you decide to butt in, ok?

[argod]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>

if you think thats what hindus want, then let me assure, it wouldnt be a TRY at all.... it would've been carried out as soon as the currect government was formed a couple of years ago.
just like everyone, we too hate fundamentalists. thats what those missionaries have become for us, and again, if the question "why" arises, its because of what i mentioned in my post above.

argh, this is getting circular.</STRONG>

From the dictionary.
fundamentalism
n : the interpretation of every word in the Bible as literal
truth

This does not apply in any way to hinduism. FYI, here
is what hindu nationalists want http://www.vedanet.com/Hinduright.htm

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>
THE PARTITION WAS BECAUSE OF THE ENGLISH!
DIVIDE AND RULE..... thats what they wanted, thats what they taught, and thats what WE GOT!</STRONG>

Divide and rule? They were giving up their rule. But yes the partition is in part a legacy of the British. Even so if it was only due to the British, then why haven't the Pakistanis and Indians since healed their divisions?

<STRONG>see... you have NO clue about the history of indian culture so you think, just from the last 100 years, that we've always had religious conflicts.</STRONG>

So the Mughals were not Muslim? And were they not also succesful military leaders? And wasn't Islam first brought to the subcontinent by invading Arabs? When they invaded did not the Hindus fight back?

<STRONG>and yeah.. the 5 years i specified was in context to what Haweye_a said. make sure you read every post in the thread before you decide to butt in, ok?</STRONG>

I know where the reference to the last five years was from. I read Hawkeye's post. You quoted from it. I was questioning it because I don't believe it. And what's this about having to read every post? Where's that rule?

[KellyHogan]

Apparently some haven't studied the history surrounding what the Christians did in India and how many slaves were carried off. Go to South America and the West Indies and ask around how many slaves came from India.

Before criticizing the Christian churches, only a handful of them, and missionaries who were attacked in India, ask what they were doing there. Most churches and priests are left to do what they want. The Church of St. Thomas has been in India for 1900 years and are more mystical and faithful to early Christianity than anything in Europe. If you want to know why missionaries were being attacked recently it was because they were dividing small villages and turning villagers against each other. They were taking money from the poor and misleading them with lies about some sort of 'caste system' which Christianity would save them from...if they paid enough to the missionaries.

Regarding Muslims in the north, many of them are of a Turkic, Persian and Arabic decent mixed with Indians. It has been a mixed corridor for thousands of years. It's not race that seperates anyone because race is a purely western concept.

Like I said, the only solution is for the atheists, agnostics and proper historians to come in and be given the respect they deserve. They should be the ones to offer the pracitical solutions in Palestine, Northern Ireland or Pakistan. We can't rely on people who believe in hobgoblins and voices from the sky.

[Hawkeye_a]

If you think so highly of ur self and ur culture, what the hell are you doing here in the U.S ? go back and live in the lap of luxury you so love and speak so highly of.

u dont like missionaries converting people eh ? did it ever occur to you that the people who get converted have minds of their own ? And why is that such a big deal anyway ? there are christians who convert to islam, hinduism budhism,etc everyday, that dosent bother me at all. i fail to see your problem.

My point of the Taj Mahal, was not that the guy who built it was a godly guy. My point was that the "others"(according to you) have also made significant contributions to history in India (and they were not always Hindu.

And yeah, i guess you are the only person who knows everything there is to know about Indian history, no one else knows as much as you, and God only knows you must have printed your own dictionaries (like i care what the definitions in dictionaries mean anyway).

I honestly dont know why i bother immersing myself in a debate with a narrow minded little hippocrate who is a product of the media and propaganda. the one word that comes to mind is ....ethnocentrism.

Open that mind of yours, we might all benifit. You guys can argue as much as you like. If you ask me, Pakistan should get Kashmir because majority of Kashmiris(who are muslim), probably want to, but unfortunately the largest "democracy" in the world cannot let a democratic process win.
Also, i was wondering what ur opinions are on the shiv-shena(spelling?) in Maharastra(spelling?). They basically hate anyone who isnt Hindu.(i was there). Let me guess, they are probably "freedom fighters" to you guys. they are neo-nazis to me.

[Agasthya]

u dont like missionaries converting people eh ? did it ever occur to you that the people who get converted have minds of their own ? And why is that such a big deal anyway ? there are christians who convert to islam, hinduism budhism,etc everyday, that dosent bother me at all. i fail to see your problem.[/QB]

hmm. as far as I know, the majority of the people being converted in India are poor people who are offered food and shelter if they agree to convert to Christiantiy. Seems a little ridiculous to me. I don't recall seeing Hindu extemists in other countries offering the poor money and shelter for conversion to Hinduism. If the Christians want to be recognized in Indian society as a "honest" religion, they should offer their religion as an option to mainstream Indian society, not force feed it down the throats of poor people.

[garrettnelson]

Basically people in Kashmir are never going to get along because there is just so much deep-seated hatred amongst them. Look how hard it is for rich Americans to agree about it�I wonder how much harder it must be for the people who are actually dying and killing over there? With religion we hit a deeper thing in humans' minds, one that came long before most of the logical routines we use in higher thinking. It's a primal thing and they just can't ever work it out amongst themselves, in Kashmir or anywhere else in the world.

It is there, as it is here, just a bunch of name-calling ...

"You're a booger-brain!"

"Oh yeah? Well ... well... you're a ... stupid-head! Nyah!"

[FulcrumPilot]

wow!! one furball of a thread!!! I think Hinduism is one of the most tolerant of all religions actually. It was the source of even buddhism and a few other major diversifications and that seems not to have really disturbed Hindus at all. Religious saints in hinduism have been described to propagate whatever concept they wanted to follow in terms of discovering spirituality! In fact I have read that a peace loving aethist will not be challenged in a Hindu society because there were many saints in Hinduism who adopted aethism as a route to understand the supernatural, read the "upanishuds". And I am sure its not too difficult to see why there is something called "a Hindu fundamentalist" these days. Other religions have just pushed these people to the corner and voila! there is a reactionary force developing. The more I read about Hinduism the more I am convinced that it was way advanced in its ideas and plurality of thoughts that it seemed to accept no matter where they came from, the only problem it never anticipated was that of physical and mindless aggression, I dont think Hindus were ever prepared for it as a unit, becuz there was a lot of cultural and ethnic diversity even within their own people.
From a western point of view, one may say that Hindus were exploiting there own people through caste system so others had to go in and rescue these exploited people. Thats actually a dumb arguement if u stop and think about it for sometime. Caste system probably would have existed happily with every layer accepting their role in the society over time. Such hierarchy is natural to human society and can be seen in almost every other animal societies too!! Frig there is massive heirarchical layering in even the most prosperous society of today, and within it there are numerous conflicts as usual. oh well, I dont think Hindu ideas will ever just dissappear in the future, all religions will in fact heavily borrow it from these time tested ideas that question a few philosophical ideas about our position in the universe, coming although from so many different directions.