[smacintush]

If you have a good relationship, what exactly does marriage add to it that is so special? it reminds me of a Doug Stanhope bit.

I have been with my wife now for 20 years, married for 15. Other than a few legal/tax conveniences, I can't for the LIFE of me think of what good marriage itself has done for us.

[besson3c]

It adds a sort of weightiness and symbolism to the commitment, as well as some legal conveniences and ease of immigration if your spouse is a foreigner. However, if you are not really religious and/or don't assign much reverence to the institution of marriage, I agree, it's not a big deal. You can make the same sort of commitments in other ways.

[Dakar V]

Usually people drop the "You can't understand until you do it" line, but since smac is married, this should be interesting.

[Railroader]

For Christians it is symbolic of Christ and the Church. It is a way to glorify God.

[SpaceMonkey]

Soap operas would be a lot less interesting.

[ort888]

Not much, but it makes doing your taxes a little easier, makes it easier to explain the significance of the person and makes having babies less socially weird.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Usually people drop the "You can't understand until you do it" line, but since smac is married, this should be interesting.

Maybe he's not doing it right.

-t

[Dakar V]

For 15 years? Like I said, this should be interesting.

[Laminar]

I love formatted text.

[::maroma::]

I've been with my girlfriend for 11 years. The only time we talk about marriage is when our parents/grandparents/other nosy people ask us about it. We generally say "we'll get married someday" but that is mostly just to put an end to the conversation.

If we do get married it will be for tax reasons only. We don't see any other reason to do so. We don't want to spend money on a wedding, and our family would disown us if we went to Vegas or something to do it.

Neither of us understand the whole battle over the concept of marriage that is going on in the U.S. these days. Its a symbolic gesture in our minds, nothing more.

[ort888]

You get presents.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by ort888 

You get presents.

But not the good kind.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I've been with my girlfriend for 11 years. The only time we talk about marriage is when our parents/grandparents/other nosy people ask us about it. We generally say "we'll get married someday" but that is mostly just to put an end to the conversation.

If we do get married it will be for tax reasons only. We don't see any other reason to do so. We don't want to spend money on a wedding, and our family would disown us if we went to Vegas or something to do it.

Neither of us understand the whole battle over the concept of marriage that is going on in the U.S. these days. Its a symbolic gesture in our minds, nothing more.

[PBG4 User]

I know when I got married, the next morning I woke up and felt different. Not just because I was married, but because my now wife & I had made a commitment to stick with each other for life (celebrated 10 years of marriage last Fall and 16 years together overall). It was like a weight had been lifted from me because here was this person telling me they loved me so much they would go through the trouble of telling me in front of all our friends and family that she would be with me forever.

It's hard to explain but basically, the door was always open for her to leave. Any time before we were married she could've said "I've had enough, I'm breaking up with you."

She could still say that tomorrow (I'm sometimes quite surprised she hasn't said it already LOL), but I don't expect it and I'm not on edge wondering if she will or not. Marriage felt to me like we had cemented our relationship with each other and were determined to take on the world with each other at our side.

We've been through thick and thin and ups and downs since then. It hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows, but we've been able to work through our differences and grow together.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

For Christians it is symbolic of Christ and the Church. It is a way to glorify God.

The ceremony, maybe, but being legally married shouldn't change a relationship in the eyes of Christians.

Boyfriend moved in with my in February. As expected, my mom was not remotely pleased and was entirely unwilling to discuss the possibility that cohabitation doesn't inevitably ruin a relationship.

I don't think there's really anything special about marriage. All it amounts to is a different way of identifying yourself to your country's government. I would not expect a marriage to change my relationship - if it suddenly changes things, then obviously the relationship wasn't ready for the marriage.

Boyfriend and I want to get married because it's a life commitment, but I think that at the end of the day, along with being something the family can attend, it's a way for us to get benefits we can't otherwise get - like I can put him on my health insurance plan, and we can share things like bank accounts more easily. I don't really think that marriage is remotely necessary if you're committed to the person you're with. There are people who avoid it because the legal commitment scares them - if the relationship ends, dissolving it is a hell of a lot more expensive and time-consuming if you're legally married. Of course, I think that's also telling of how confident you are in your relationship with your SO...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The ceremony, maybe, but being legally married shouldn't change a relationship in the eyes of Christians.

You really should read a Bible sometime.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You really should read a Bible sometime.

Yeah, 'cause I totally haven't done that.

Being married in the eyes of the IRS is not the same as being married in the eyes of the church. I don't remotely think that Christians are obligated to be legally married (aka civil union) in order to legitimize the relationship.

[mattsliva]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You really should read a Bible sometime.™

Fixed it for you.

[smacintush]

[QUOTE=PBG4 User;3832797]I know when I got married, the next morning I woke up and felt different. Not just because I was married, but because my now wife & I had made a commitment to stick with each other for life.

So why is a lifetime commitment made when you are too young and stupid to really know what you want inherently a good thing? I mean, it CAN be sure but aren't people at some point sticking with it because they are "supposed to"?

It was like a weight had been lifted from me because here was this person telling me they loved me so much they would go through the trouble of telling me in front of all our friends and family that she would be with me forever.

I don't understand why this can't be done without an official marriage.

It's hard to explain but basically, the door was always open for her to leave. Any time before we were married she could've said "I've had enough, I'm breaking up with you."

She could still say that tomorrow (I'm sometimes quite surprised she hasn't said it already LOL), but I don't expect it and I'm not on edge wondering if she will or not

.

This seems like a personal issue rather than an advantage of marriage itself.

We've been through thick and thin and ups and downs since then. It hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows, but we've been able to work through our differences and grow together.

I know what you mean. My wife and I have had our share of challenges as well.

In the end though, isn't it out of fear of abandonment/being alone etc. that makes marriage so attractive to many people?

Several years ago my wife and I separated. We did work it out and things are better than ever. For my part it was out of concern for my children that brought me back home not because of a "bond of matrimony", but let's leave children totally aside for a moment. Let's say there are no children and we would have divorced. So what? We live, we love, we move on. I think this idea that love is supposed to be eternal is the issue, but it's ONLY an idea isn't it?

[mattsliva]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yeah, 'cause I totally haven't done that.

Being married in the eyes of the IRS is not the same as being married in the eyes of the church. I don't remotely think that Christians are obligated to be legally married (aka civil union) in order to legitimize the relationship.

Christians must be married before they get any benefits from marriage... if you know what I mean.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yeah, 'cause I totally haven't done that.

Being married in the eyes of the IRS is not the same as being married in the eyes of the church. I don't remotely think that Christians are obligated to be legally married (aka civil union) in order to legitimize the relationship.

Then you didn't comprehend it.

What you think and what the Bible teaches are obviously two completely separate things.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by mattsliva 

Fixed it for you.

Thanks™

Actually, I should have typed: "You really need to do a Bible-based study on the subject of marriage".

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by mattsliva 

Christians must be married before they get any benefits from marriage... if you know what I mean.

[mattsliva]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Thanks™

Actually, I should have typed: "You really need to do a Bible-based study on the subject of marriage".

Here's what irks me about subjects like this. Elitism. In this case, Railroader, I'm getting a hint of Christian Elitism from the last two comments.

You should really read a Bible sometime and you just don't comprehend it.

It doesn't do any good other than to turn people away from Christianity. If there is a specific valid answer in the Bible about marriage, then give it.

If something as subjective and objective with many interpretations and misinterpretations to it as the Bible, then how can it be seriously considered as fact, law, and straight from God's own mouth? If it was written as laws for the common man, why does it take a preacher to decipher it for all of us?

Maybe I just don't get it.

[besson3c]

Didn't you get the memo? There is only one way to interpret the Bible...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by mattsliva 

Here's what irks me about subjects like this. Elitism. In this case, Railroader, I'm getting a hint of Christian Elitism from the last two comments.

You should really read a Bible sometime and you just don't comprehend it.

It doesn't do any good other than to turn people away from Christianity. If there is a specific valid answer in the Bible about marriage, then give it.

Oh, then say it.

Your post in itself it elitism.

The whole bible is interspersed with teachings and instructions about marriage and how important it is. Christ is considered the Bridegroom of the Church. Song of Songs is an ode to marriage and sensuality in marriage.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by mattsliva 

Here's what irks me about subjects like this. Elitism. In this case, Railroader, I'm getting a hint of Christian Elitism from the last two comments.

You should really read a Bible sometime and you just don't get it.

It doesn't do any good other than to turn people away from Christianity. If there is a valid answer in the Bible about marriage, then give it.

Agreed.

I did find an article from a Christian commentator on why Christians should get married. The reasons amount to this:

-So you can have kids
-So you can have sex
-So you can make a lifelong commitment to someone

None of these require marriage. Not only that, but the attitude on #1 is that one of the purposes of marriage is to procreate, and you're doing something wrong if you aren't procreating (or at least trying to). This is a big problem. There are a lot of people out there who simply shouldn't have children. Telling them that their attitude is sinful is a damn bad thing to do, since they may end up having kids and abusing those kids because *gasp* they aren't cut out to be parents.

Sex is completely overrated and overdiscussed in the Christian world. Christians are obsessed with sex to an unhealthy level. There is constant talk about how sex is evil and sex is dirty and sex will ruin your life, but it's the most beautiful and spiritual thing ever if you do it when you're married. There's constant pressure on teenage girls to avoid "causing boys to stumble", and there's constant pressure on teenage boys and girls alike to pretend that their hormones don't exist. Christians are utterly infatuated with the idea of sex. Sure, sex can ruin your life if you get preggo or contract Teh Herp™, but there are plenty of other things in life that can screw you up a hell of a lot worse, and a hell of a lot more easily than intercourse. Not only that, but the Christian view of sex when it comes to teenagers and young adults almost completely ignores the sexuality of women and focuses entirely on the excess hormones in men, putting the onus on the women to magically keep men from being aroused by them and "causing men to stumble".

The third one - the lifelong commitment - is a bit easier to swallow, but I don't think that a marriage certificate from your local courthouse somehow guarantees the relationship more than two people who stay together for life but never make it a legally-recognized bond.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

The whole Bible is interspersed with teachings and instructions about marriage and how important it is. Christ is considered the Bridegroom of the Church. Song of Songs is an ode to marriage and sensuality in marriage.

Ah, but there's a mighty big difference between a legal marriage and a spiritual/Biblical marriage.

Marriage is not interpreted the same way between the government and the church. I don't see any evidence that Christians are obligated to a government-recognized marriage, or that they are somehow sinning by not getting legally married.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by mattsliva 

If something as subjective and objective with many interpretations and misinterpretations to it as the Bible, then how can it be seriously considered as fact, law, and straight from God's own mouth? If it was written as laws for the common man, why does it take a preacher to decipher it for all of us?

Maybe I just don't get it.

[You added this after I started replying to the original post.]

I guess you don't. But have you ever really tried? Did you simply just try reading the Bible? Did you try joining a study group?

Not all pastors or churches are the same or even preach the Bible correctly.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Agreed.

I did find an article from a Christian commentator on why Christians should get married. The reasons amount to this:

-So you can have kids
-So you can have sex
-So you can make a lifelong commitment to someone

None of these require marriage. Not only that, but the attitude on #1 is that one of the purposes of marriage is to procreate, and you're doing something wrong if you aren't procreating (or at least trying to). This is a big problem. There are a lot of people out there who simply shouldn't have children. Telling them that their attitude is sinful is a damn bad thing to do, since they may end up having kids and abusing those kids because *gasp* they aren't cut out to be parents.

Sex is completely overrated and overdiscussed in the Christian world. Christians are obsessed with sex to an unhealthy level. There is constant talk about how sex is evil and sex is dirty and sex will ruin your life, but it's the most beautiful and spiritual thing ever if you do it when you're married. There's constant pressure on teenage girls to avoid "causing boys to stumble", and there's constant pressure on teenage boys and girls alike to pretend that their hormones don't exist. Christians are utterly infatuated with the idea of sex. Sure, sex can ruin your life if you get preggo or contract Teh Herp™, but there are plenty of other things in life that can screw you up a hell of a lot worse, and a hell of a lot more easily than intercourse. Not only that, but the Christian view of sex when it comes to teenagers and young adults almost completely ignores the sexuality of women and focuses entirely on the excess hormones in men, putting the onus on the women to magically keep men from being aroused by them and "causing men to stumble".

The third one - the lifelong commitment - is a bit easier to swallow, but I don't think that a marriage certificate from your local courthouse somehow guarantees the relationship more than two people who stay together for life but never make it a legally-recognized bond.

You find one source from a commentator you easily can refute. Nice.

Your generalizations about Christians are grossly inaccurate. You are far too prejudiced.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Not all pastors or churches are the same or even preach the Bible correctly.

Hilaaaaarius!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Agreed.

I did find an article from a Christian commentator on why Christians should get married. The reasons amount to this:

-So you can have kids
-So you can have sex
-So you can make a lifelong commitment to someone

None of these require marriage. Not only that, but the attitude on #1 is that one of the purposes of marriage is to procreate, and you're doing something wrong if you aren't procreating (or at least trying to). This is a big problem. There are a lot of people out there who simply shouldn't have children. Telling them that their attitude is sinful is a damn bad thing to do, since they may end up having kids and abusing those kids because *gasp* they aren't cut out to be parents.

Sex is completely overrated and overdiscussed in the Christian world. Christians are obsessed with sex to an unhealthy level. There is constant talk about how sex is evil and sex is dirty and sex will ruin your life, but it's the most beautiful and spiritual thing ever if you do it when you're married. There's constant pressure on teenage girls to avoid "causing boys to stumble", and there's constant pressure on teenage boys and girls alike to pretend that their hormones don't exist. Christians are utterly infatuated with the idea of sex. Sure, sex can ruin your life if you get preggo or contract Teh Herp™, but there are plenty of other things in life that can screw you up a hell of a lot worse, and a hell of a lot more easily than intercourse. Not only that, but the Christian view of sex when it comes to teenagers and young adults almost completely ignores the sexuality of women and focuses entirely on the excess hormones in men, putting the onus on the women to magically keep men from being aroused by them and "causing men to stumble".

The third one - the lifelong commitment - is a bit easier to swallow, but I don't think that a marriage certificate from your local courthouse somehow guarantees the relationship more than two people who stay together for life but never make it a legally-recognized bond.



Ah, but there's a mighty big difference between a legal marriage and a spiritual/Biblical marriage.

Marriage is not interpreted the same way between the government and the church. I don't see any evidence that Christians are obligated to a government-recognized marriage, or that they are somehow sinning by not getting legally married.

I agree with all of this!

Not only do women have to be stop signs, but they're condemned from society as sluts if they fail at being a good stop sign, and men are pretty much applauded for "getting some" (until the woman becomes pregnant).

I don't know if these attitudes about sex, abstinence, and gender roles are exclusively Christian in origin, but wherever they come from they are completely screwed up.

What the Christian right needs to do is the same thing that many political pundits are prescribing right now to the right as a whole: modernize and lose a little rigid dogma. This sort of absolutist hard core right wingey dogmatic thing going on needs to be put out to pasture. The Bible is not less valid when looked at through the lens of modern society - it needs that lens, and shouldn't be denied that lens.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The Bible is not…valid when looked at through the lens of modern society - it…should…be denied that lens.

I cleaned it up for clarity.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I agree with all of this!

Not only do women have to be stop signs, but they're condemned from society as sluts if they fail at being a good stop sign, and men are pretty much applauded for "getting some" (until the woman becomes pregnant).

I don't know if these attitudes about sex, abstinence, and gender roles are exclusively Christian in their orientation, but wherever they come from they are completely screwed up.

Those attitudes aren't exclusively Christian - they're not Christian at all. I'm unfamiliar with any denomination that holds those standards.

[Dakar V]

Where do you think they originate from?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Those attitudes aren't exclusively Christian - they're not Christian at all.

How would you characterize their roots? Sounds very puritanical to me.

[Laminar]

What relevance do their roots have? I thought we were discussing modern views.

[Dakar V]

I still think its a good question.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What relevance do their roots have? I thought we were discussing modern views.

Sorry, I wrote:

I don't know if these attitudes about sex, abstinence, and gender roles are exclusively Christian in their orientation

orientation should be "origin"

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Sorry, I wrote:



orientation should be "origin"

You can blame the Puritans for the modern cultural views on sexuality as much as you can blame the Puritans' Thanksgiving turkeys for our outbreak of Swine Flu. Sure there may be a relation but there are so many other outside influences and "mutations" of those views that you can't single out a solitary source.

[besson3c]

Religious organization is a human invention. Therefore, it is not going to be perfect. I wish that the religious would offer concessions to the imperfections of their perceived views, attitudes, and political stances from time to time (which is different from offering concessions for their actual beliefs). My perceived views of the attitudes of sex and Christianity are that they do not belong in this century, and I don't think I'm alone.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

You can blame the Puritans for the modern cultural views on sexuality as much as you can blame the Puritans' Thanksgiving turkeys for our outbreak of Swine Flu. Sure there may be a relation but there are so many other outside influences and "mutations" of those views that you can't single out a solitary source.

I wasn't trying to single out a solitary source, I mentioned what could be a source in passing. Whatever the source, I believe these ideas to be absurd and archaic - that was the point I was trying to emphasize.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Religious organization is a human invention.

That's one view.

My perceived views of the attitudes of sex and Christianity do not belong in this century, and I don't think I'm alone.

You'll have to rephrase this for clarity. Taking out what I see as the prepositional phrases leaves me with this:

My perceived views do not belong in this century, and I don't think I'm alone.

and I don't think that's what you're trying to say.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

That's one view.


You'll have to rephrase this for clarity.

I rewrote this:

My perceived views of the attitudes of sex and Christianity are that they do not belong in this century, and I don't think I'm alone.

I simply mean that the far end of this spectrum, or the baseline for viewpoints pertaining to sexuality that the more moderate Christian population calibrates to are essentially archaic in their most basic form.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I wasn't trying to single out a solitary source, I mentioned what could be a source in passing. Whatever the source, I believe these ideas to be absurd and archaic - that was the point I was trying to emphasize.

I can't say much about the Puritans' views on sexual activity appropriate for each gender, but I'd bet they frowned on it either way.

Is your problem with your perception of modern-day Christian views on sexuality because:
A. Women and men are held to a different standards, or
B. It's unacceptable for women to sleep around?

[Dakar V]

I think it stands that a majority of people put on a front of subscribing to some rather conservatives views towards sexuality and marriage in what seems to be an effort to appease a minority of people who are too dumb to notice that the formers' actions convey a different set of principles. (i.e., Christians, you be ****in' before marriage and divorcin' alot)

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I simply mean that the far end of this spectrum, or the baseline for viewpoints pertaining to sexuality that the more moderate Christian population calibrates to are essentially archaic in their most basic form.

"Christian views on sexuality are old fashioned."

Did I get it?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

I think it stands that a majority of people put on a front of subscribing to some rather conservatives views towards sexuality and marriage in what seems to be an effort to appease a minority of people who are too dumb to notice that the formers' actions convey a different set of principles. (i.e., Christians, you be ****in' before marriage and divorcin' alot)

I read through this five times trying to figure it out. As soon as I went to reply, I saw an edit for clarity.

Why do you think people put on that front?

[sockpuppet]

The mire is calling, the mire that is the P/L...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

"Christian views on sexuality are old fashioned."

Did I get it?

I'm trying to be a lot more careful and qualifying with my claims, but am having difficulty doing so. This doesn't really encapsulate what I'm getting at either..

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by sockpuppet 

The mire is calling, the mire that is the P/L...

Fantastic addition to the thread. MacNN thanks you.