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Election 2028: How to finish MAGA, step by step. (Page 2)
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subego
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Nov 11, 2024, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Is the reason you have put deterrence in quotation marks because it doesn't actually work in practice? (Again, look to what happened in other countries that have slid into illiberal democracies.)
I did not.

Is there a specific event you can point to that’s analogous?
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
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Nov 11, 2024, 07:19 PM
 
So here's Bernie saying effectively same shit; appeal to the working class, not the elites.

https://www.thenation.com/article/po...working-class/
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 11, 2024, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes. A/K/A “deterrence”.
Yes, that’s super effective. That’s why Tr*mp, who stacked the courts and corrupted the judiciary to his own advantage, was never voted back into office.

Right.
     
subego
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Nov 11, 2024, 11:39 PM
 
The power to deter comes from the majority. Defy the majority and get thrown out of office.

This is precisely what happened in 2020. The majority threw Trump out of office. That majority evaporated, and along with it the ability to deter him from regaining office.

In the scenario we’re discussing, fucking around with electors, a state legislature must openly defy the majority. They would be punished by said majority.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 12, 2024, 05:53 AM
 
Your explanation breaks down at the point where he did NOT win the majority in 2016, but the way the electoral college is stacked, he won anyway.

But aside from that:

The point of disenfranchisement is that people no longer get voted out of office.
     
sek929
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Nov 12, 2024, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
So here's Bernie saying effectively same shit; appeal to the working class, not the elites.

https://www.thenation.com/article/po...working-class/
Nah lets trot out Liz Cheney instead and try and win over "moderate republicans" for some reason.
     
sek929
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Nov 12, 2024, 06:21 PM
 
The Democrats either reinvent the direction of the party or do what they did the last time(s) they got their pants pulled down, move to the right.
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 12, 2024, 07:53 PM
 
The basic problem democrats, as a party, have is that it’s a galaxy-sized big tent that is, basically, a refuge for everyone who is not republican, and still believes in representative democracy. Putting together a sane, coherent platform that doesn’t piss-off one chunk or another of the crowd you’re trying to represent is functionally impossible. See the israel/palestine mess that tore-through the party like bird flu and deeply divided large swaths of otherwise dependable voters. Or the younger voters who stayed away because Harris wasn’t the perfect sparkly pony they demanded.

The republican party, otoh, has none of that. Save for libertarians on the fringes, it’s a relatively homogenous group, who are all joined together to 1) smash liberals (i.e. anyone not republican), and 2) end the federal government as we know it.

By sheer numbers, the democrats should swamp the republicans year-after-year. But, the diverse depth of interests/causes/beliefs/ideologies under that big tent is what makes it hard to hold together, but so very easy to split.

The US (or, at least, the part of the country that isn’t MAGA or christian fundy) would benefit greatly if it could find a way to get past the entrenched two-party system, so that working coalitions could be built to govern effectively.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 13, 2024, 11:50 AM
 
I agree that it is not tenable that e. g. Liz Cheney and AOC endorse the same candidate. However, the only “solution” I can see is that the GOP as we know it collapses. There is no other way as far as I can tell. Up until that point, anyone interested in democracy and actual policy needs to stay with Democrats.
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Spheric Harlot
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Nov 13, 2024, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
The republican party, otoh, has none of that. Save for libertarians on the fringes, it’s a relatively homogenous group, who are all joined together to 1) smash liberals (i.e. anyone not republican), and 2) end the federal government as we know it.
The most amazing aspect of the collapse of American Democracy, to me, is how the entire Republican party fell lock-step in behind a fascist authoritarian and his shadow cabinet thinktank, when they had no ostensible need to do so (and in fact, roundly denounced the coup attempt).

I cannot believe that this is actual conviction (except on part of the real crackpots) — so is it brute opportunism or fear, or both, or something else?
     
Laminar
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Nov 13, 2024, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Or the younger voters who stayed away because Harris wasn’t the perfect sparkly pony they demanded.
You've used this same phrase/terminology more than once. Is this an idea that you really like? There's a valuable conversation to be had about why Gen Z men swung right by 15 points between 2020 and 2024 and Gen Z women shifted by 7 points, but shortcutting the conversation by pretending that voters in that demographic were picky little princesses doesn't do anyone any good.
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 14, 2024, 04:53 PM
 
I’m in a couple of other communities with a fairly good number of younger folk in the mix. The discussions with them over the election were maddening. It was a constant movement of tiny goalposts. For instance, first their problem was that Harris wasn’t saying anything about Palestine. Then it was Harris didn’t say the exact thing they wanted her to say. Then her environmental statements weren’t exactly what they wanted to hear. Over and over, it was a case of Harris not being perfect enough, not saying the exact things they wanted to hear, for them to bother with voting to keep trump out of office. And every encouragement to vote was met with a lot of “oh, please, i’m so tired of being told this is the most important vote i’ll cast,” despite, y’know, evidence to the contrary.
     
Laminar
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Nov 15, 2024, 09:39 AM
 
And then you extrapolated that to an entire generation without looking at any data?
     
subego
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Nov 15, 2024, 02:28 PM
 
The basic shape seems right. I’m not sure what else it could be.

Swing state Democrats who didn’t vote aren’t particularly afraid of Trump. If they were they would have voted despite their complaints with Harris.

Palestine seems to be the big issue with zoomers.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 15, 2024, 04:37 PM
 
So they accepted the win of somebody who basically told Netanyahu to nuke the Palestinians and annex their land.

Figures.
     
subego
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Nov 15, 2024, 06:38 PM
 
Trump and Biden policy on Israel is thesamepicture.jpg.

It’s not like Biden would have stopped that.

Harris had plenty of opportunity to distance herself from that, and didn’t take it.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 16, 2024, 05:31 AM
 
Yep. And targeted ads made it clear that a fascist takeover is better than voting for someone who hasn’t made clear whether she’ll support the same Middle East policy, or improve things.

It’s the same bullshit that beat Hillary and got us Tr*mp I.

Sow enough doubt to keep the thinking people from the ballots.
     
subego
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Nov 16, 2024, 01:25 PM
 
Candidate refuses to commit, thereby giving their opponent a chance to sow doubt.

Opponent sows doubt.


That’s the way the game works, no?
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 16, 2024, 01:35 PM
 
Well if you're pro palestine, you're an antisemite. If you're pro israel, you're pro genocide. I heard Harris talk on this with sensitivity to both groups but apparently no one else did.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 16, 2024, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Well if you're pro palestine, you're an antisemite. If you're pro israel, you're pro genocide.
Yep, and Harris was both, apparently.

https://thehill.com/business/4941848...ads-on-israel/

     
subego
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Nov 16, 2024, 05:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I heard Harris talk on this with sensitivity to both groups but apparently no one else did.
I honestly applaud your confidence Harris would have translated this sensitivity into policy where the Palestinians come out significantly better.

I see so many things stacked against it, the lack of something more concrete makes me skeptical, as I imagine it would to a Palestine single-issue voter.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 17, 2024, 03:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I honestly applaud your confidence Harris would have translated this sensitivity into policy where the Palestinians come out significantly better.
Except we have seen that play out in the Biden administration. They have exerted a lot of pressure on the Netanyahu government to e. g. ensure that aid could be delivered. Diplomacy isn't about making boisterous statements and being loud, but the nuances. I would expect that a Harris administration had continued down that path.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with the Biden administration's stance. But it is rich that Trump got to criticize Biden and Harris for simultaneously being “too weak in its support for Israel” and for “not helping Palestinians enough”.
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OreoCookie
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Nov 17, 2024, 03:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Well if you're pro palestine, you're an antisemite. If you're pro israel, you're pro genocide. I heard Harris talk on this with sensitivity to both groups but apparently no one else did.
The crazy black-and-white thinking of people of Netanyahu's and Trump's stripe is making things worse. All empathy is being lost and politics actively discourages everyone from developing empathy for the other. Hamas clearly had had no empathy for the victims and Israelis it abducted. Israel shows a clear lack of empathy with how it handles the situation in Gaza and the West Bank (remember: Hamas does not control the West Bank), and it is also reflected in your apt description of the either-or (either you are an anti-semitic lover of terrorists or you support genocide).
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andi*pandi
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Nov 17, 2024, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I honestly applaud your confidence Harris would have translated this sensitivity into policy where the Palestinians come out significantly better.

I see so many things stacked against it, the lack of something more concrete makes me skeptical, as I imagine it would to a Palestine single-issue voter.
I don't think anyone can solve this dispute in a sound bite. Expressing care for the palestinian people, and making the clear distinction between them and Hamas, was the point, while also making clear that the hostages need to be returned.

As Oreo points out, Biden getting aid thru took diplomacy and negotiating not being a blowhard. Getting Hamas out when they are literally underground, under hospitals and schools, is going to be a high level op that probably can't be talked about until it's over.
     
subego
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Nov 17, 2024, 10:47 AM
 
“Israel can suck it.”

There’s the sound bite.
     
MacNNFamous  (op)
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Nov 20, 2024, 01:42 PM
 
"Subego is a nazi sympathizer" is what the news bite would say. Can't say anything critical of Israel hoovering billions of US tax payer dollars while our VA hospitals rot, infrastructure falls apart, education system fails, etc.

My MAGA neighbor has been in a good mood.... it's going to be so hilarious when everything hits the fan. Crops will skyrocket once deportation begins, and when the culling happens of federal employees, unemployment will skyrocket, it's going to be hilarious. What really boggles my mind is he's a union guy, with a pension. I'm like .... wait... a union? The thing where you band together to put leverage against your employer for higher pay and benefits? Like..uh... socialism? Mental gymnastics by MAGA cult is olympic level.
     
subego
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Nov 20, 2024, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
"Subego is a nazi sympathizer" is what the news bite would say.
Yes.

However the issue isn’t coming up with a sound bite which makes this position clear to pro-Palestinian zoomers, it’s lacking the power and support to win on that platform.
     
Laminar
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Nov 20, 2024, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
My MAGA neighbor has been in a good mood.... it's going to be so hilarious when everything hits the fan.
Trump's first term showed us that a healthy economy can thrive with four straight years of deficit spending, skyrocketing the national debt, trade wars devastating price stability, and more. For any micro-failures, he's willing to deficit spend to get his way out of it - see the $12 billion bailouts to farmers after the Trump/China trade war destroyed crop prices. Generally, bad economic policy usually has longer-term consequences, long enough that those at fault have enough distance to blame something or someone else. I'm not convinced anything will hit the fan in his term, though we could definitely have a repeat of last time where a Democrat gets elected in 2028 and has to suffer all of the bad press of inflation and excessive government spending and high prices driven by having to clean up the previous administration's bad policies.

Crops will skyrocket once deportation begins,
"Biden's bad economic policy and lack of fossil fuel investment has continued to skyrocket gas and grocery prices."

and when the culling happens of federal employees, unemployment will skyrocket, it's going to be hilarious.
The federal government employs 1.8 million people. The current unemployment rate is 4.1% or 7 million people. Say the fed employment gets cut in half, that's now 7.9 million people or about 4.6%. That's still lower unemployment than we had in August of 2021.

Also unemployment is really easy to culture-war-away - "no one wants to work anymore," "this generation is so lazy," "everyone is afraid of hard work and wants a cushy social media influencer job instead of getting their hands dirty." Boom his base doesn't care about unemployment anymore.

What really boggles my mind is he's a union guy, with a pension. I'm like .... wait... a union? The thing where you band together to put leverage against your employer for higher pay and benefits? Like..uh... socialism? Mental gymnastics by MAGA cult is olympic level.
Trump has been really careful about his messaging around Unions. He knows that white non-college graduated old men (most unions) are his biggest demographic. They're very susceptible to the "I earned this so fuck you" and "no one wants to work anymore" narratives that work well for him.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 22, 2024, 03:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
My MAGA neighbor has been in a good mood.... it's going to be so hilarious when everything hits the fan.
We have been here before, haven't we? Did Obama get credit for getting Americans out of the financial crisis? Did Biden get credit for dealing with inflation faster than any G7 nation? Do Republican voters who are suddenly concerned about budget deficits know how the budget deficit developed during the Trump presidency?

My impression is that after shit hit the fan, a Democratic administration takes over to shovel shit and I have the impression they are far more remembered for a driveway full of shit (aka the before) and not for the clean(er) driveway they left behind.

Another pointer in this direction is how Republican's opinion on the state of the economy changed after Trump's election even though Biden is still in power. It is this that I think we need to understand and combat.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Crops will skyrocket once deportation begins, and when the culling happens of federal employees, unemployment will skyrocket, it's going to be hilarious. What really boggles my mind is he's a union guy, with a pension. I'm like .... wait... a union? The thing where you band together to put leverage against your employer for higher pay and benefits? Like..uh... socialism? Mental gymnastics by MAGA cult is olympic level.
Yeah, the “He didn't mean us!” attitude.
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Laminar
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Nov 22, 2024, 09:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
We have been here before, haven't we? Did Obama get credit for getting Americans out of the financial crisis?
No, Democrats are in bed with big business and bailed out their banking buddies.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 24, 2024, 03:51 PM
 
Some fun conspiracy theories appearing. First one about Starling providing internet for the vote tabulating machines, but only in the swing states, and one of their satellites being crashed to Earth the day after (to destroy evidence supposedly. Coupled with odd voting patterns in the swing states.

Newest one seems to be that Trump is very ill and nearly dead. Something about two ambulances & the secret service at Mar-a-Lago. And some plan to essentially Weekend at Bernies him until they can get JD Vance sworn in because some people think if Trump croaks or is too ill to take charge before inauguration then Biden could or would refuse to certify and call a do-over. I have no idea what the law is but of course he has immunity for now.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Nov 25, 2024, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Some fun conspiracy theories appearing. First one about Starling providing internet for the vote tabulating machines, but only in the swing states, and one of their satellites being crashed to Earth the day after (to destroy evidence supposedly. Coupled with odd voting patterns in the swing states.

Newest one seems to be that Trump is very ill and nearly dead. Something about two ambulances & the secret service at Mar-a-Lago. And some plan to essentially Weekend at Bernies him until they can get JD Vance sworn in because some people think if Trump croaks or is too ill to take charge before inauguration then Biden could or would refuse to certify and call a do-over. I have no idea what the law is but of course he has immunity for now.
1000000% bro. He fucking cheated. Every swing state went to trump, but ALSO elected democratic senators?! No way. Here in Wisco, you're saying people voted for trump AND a lesbian democrat senator?
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2024, 04:02 PM
 
Eyeballing it, I’d say the Republican got Nadered Fuentesed. He lost 70K to third-party candidates. Democrat only won by 30K.
     
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Nov 25, 2024, 10:39 PM
 
Uh huh. And that just happened to happen in every swing state, what a coincidence. For some reason I'm seeing the most details on the houstonwade subreddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/houstonwade.../they_cheated/
     
subego
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Nov 26, 2024, 07:48 AM
 
Huh?

Republican won the senate seat in Pennsylvania.
     
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Nov 26, 2024, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Huh?

Republican won the senate seat in Pennsylvania.
My interpretation is that the talk of cheating during the election (if Trump had lost) got so stuck in their Maga brains that these conspiracy theories took on a life of their own even though even the basic thesis makes no sense (the Dems cheated and hence, Trump got elected ).
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subego
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Nov 26, 2024, 03:37 PM
 
I’m lost as to how this relates.

These are Democrats accusing Republicans of cheating.
     
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Jan 30, 2025, 01:38 PM
 
This topic on reddit had some absolute FIRE answers:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQue...re_right_wing/

"Let’s see how it is for young men in the 2020s.

As a young man you have no hope of owning anything, not even a home and if you’re lucky you can scrape by with an apartment that you’ll have to share.

The dating scene is completely ravaged by social media, technology sponsored traumas, OnlyFans, other pornography, and dating apps.

The job market is completely fried and most college educations are no longer enough for any professional career, most now need additional schooling.

The cost of living is rising faster than the Titanic’s ass at the end of the movie while salaries haven’t changed substantially since the turn of the century.

They’ve become adults in a culture and society that has abandoned them and instead panders to every group that isn’t them and celebrated in proportion to how much they are NOT them.

They spend hours online watching millionaires flex their money, cars, girlfriends, and see others their age posting their own good fortunes, leading them to believe that they have already failed at a young age, because said society is against them.

Then they scroll on social media apps designed to keep them fired up and engaged where influencers and pot-stirrers confirm and reiterate what I said. Now they are reaching adulthood, where they can vote, work, and they act accordingly. The far-right is shockingly young.

This has been brewing since the 2010s, maybe even before that. Once COVID hit and we all admittedly became a bit chronically online, a lot of people got radicalized in both political directions. However, it’s starting to boil over with the election & new U.S. Government which has inspired cultural change that makes these young men feel emboldened and cared for. They believe that nobody else does, so they cling to it, even if the policies they enforce do not tangibly benefit them.

It’s not even a question. What’s interesting is that despite having one of the most prosperous economies and qualities of life in human history, it doesn’t matter. They have no money, partner, or certain future to participate in it."

and

"I wouldn't go so far as to say the left "spits" on young men.

But there is a startling lack of empathy and honesty towards them from women. Newsflash, those 20 year old dudes didn't create the patriarchy.

There was literally some dude who would make posts in various subreddits with stories and then make an identical one some time later with the genders swapped and the difference was shocking. I saw one where one commenter was the same in both posts and only recognized their bias after being called out that it was a gender swapped post. That's the difference. It's not spitting on men. But it's giving women all benefit of the doubt and men none.

Women lie about their preferences in dating. Men see the studies, the stats, their own experiences and the lie is so fucking blatant it convinces no one. But women try and turn it on men like "oh you must not shower." Or.... women also like to be physically attracted to their partners but for some reason hate admitting that out loud.

I get force-fed so many fucking posts on Reddit from women saying "I don't give a fuck about the male loneliness epidemic. Fuck em." Or "that's their problem not mine." I guarantee those women wouldn't be happy if men had that attitude towards sexual assaulters like Harvey Weinstein.

When young guys see women being dishonest, being inconsistent with their empathy and supposed values, they can tell. Then some asshole comes along and cashes in. "See, those women are liars. I'll tell you the truth." And then once they're hooked sprinkle in the other right wing shit.

I responded to a reddit post a few days ago where someone made a comment blaming young men for their own "poor life choices." Except the graph showed also 15-18 year old kids. I was like what fucking life choices did those kids make? What toppings to get when their parents picked up a pizza? You're going to show that little empathy and understanding to literal kids? I was downvoted for this.

Younger generations have, for decades, been reliably more progressive than the older ones. It is also less white than older generations which also correlates to being more progressive. And yet as a generation young men, even non-white young men, it has swung sharply to the right. I guarantee that the lack of empathy and honesty is doing the bulk of the work there.Women would help themselves a fuckton here if they were just more honest and empathetic. Or keep doing what you're doing and solidify a conservative majority among young male voters that'll last the rest of your lives. Seems like a good idea."

Highly recommend reading all the comments.
     
Laminar
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Jan 30, 2025, 03:10 PM
 
Aside from the MRA-pipeline talking points, the connection between an excess of displaced, angry young men and violent conflict/revolution has been known and studied for decades. It's not because of feminism or because some women online don't coddle men's feelings.

From 2014:
https://qz.com/186066/this-lost-gene...obal-stability

When there aren’t enough jobs to employ the supply of young men, that can galvanize conflict, argue the analysts—as can stagflation, rising income inequality, unaffordable property, and other problems facing emerging markets. Particularly if they’re unmarried, these young men have less to lose by banding together and committing crimes, unrest or violence.
Again, this is from 2014 and the article is talking about "emerging markets" like India and China, but it's kind of funny how "stagflation, rising income inequality, unaffordable property" seems to nail 2025 America. The deflection to blame women or immigrants is normal and expected, but not supported by data or history. It's just a continued distraction from the (real) class war by the (fake) culture war.

https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/ro...-housing-costs

https://www.cato.org/blog/jd-vance-c...rices-thats-ok

Fun thought experiment - what do you think happens to housing supply (and in effect, housing prices) when ICE rounds up and deports all of the people building houses?
     
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Jan 31, 2025, 02:13 PM
 
Well, that would be less people that need housing, which means demand would drop, and we'd still have the same supply.

And if you're in construction/trades, removing more people who will work for lower wages is a good thing, as it reduces supply, but there will still be demand since new houses are generally not being paid for by illegal immigrants, which means wages for skilled trades should go up.

More recently, Elon has wanted to eliminate engineers and designers (fairly decent salaries) and instead replace them with H1B foreigners, because again, they will work for lower wages.

This is why I've felt like halting immigration completely would be a good thing, not from a place of malice or hate, but by eliminating a steady stream of laborers who will work for cheap, it will force companies to pay REAL WAGES to citizens of this country. Once the working class sees an improvement in QOL and wages catch up with costs of things a bit, then maybe we could start immigration again.

Overall, immigration works against the working class. Simple supply and demand. For too long American society has been propped up by illegal labor paying slave wages.
     
Laminar
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Jan 31, 2025, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Well, that would be less people that need housing, which means demand would drop, and we'd still have the same supply.
Oh cool, you didn't read any of those papers.
     
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Feb 1, 2025, 01:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Well, that would be less people that need housing, which means demand would drop, and we'd still have the same supply.
Speaking of supply, who likely works on construction sites? How big is the delta between supply and demand?
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
And if you're in construction/trades, removing more people who will work for lower wages is a good thing, as it reduces supply, but there will still be demand since new houses are generally not being paid for by illegal immigrants, which means wages for skilled trades should go up.
It also increases the prices of new homes and assumes construction companies are able to find sufficiently many legal workers. Color me skeptical that this will work out. Much more likely, people will feel an even bigger shortage of capable craftsmen.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
This is why I've felt like halting immigration completely would be a good thing, not from a place of malice or hate, but by eliminating a steady stream of laborers who will work for cheap, it will force companies to pay REAL WAGES to citizens of this country.
Immigration are a net benefit to the economy. They are more likely to open businesses and such. Having been an immigrant in several countries and knowing many expats, I can tell you that the mentality amongst them is very different: they are more ambitious than average, more flexible than average, more eager than average, are willing to lean another language and work in multicultural contexts. They are simply better than the average native in those respects. That is why the US culture is the way it is, it is a country of immigrants, it took in people with those attributes from other countries and made a new one. In my experience many natives feel and understand that at a subconscious level, and are insecure about it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 5, 2025, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Oh cool, you didn't read any of those papers.
Surprise! That would entail actual work to support an opinion.
     
andi*pandi
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Feb 5, 2025, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I honestly applaud your confidence Harris would have translated this sensitivity into policy where the Palestinians come out significantly better.

I see so many things stacked against it, the lack of something more concrete makes me skeptical, as I imagine it would to a Palestine single-issue voter.
Pretty sure Harris would never have proposed razing the entire Gaza strip to make it into the new Riviera, and shoving the people living there somewhere "in egypt or whereever".
     
Laminar
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Feb 6, 2025, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Surprise! That would entail actual work to support an opinion.
     
 
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