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aoprods · Jan 8, 2007, 06:22 PM

I just purchased a Power Mac G4 400Mhz with 256mb ram and a 20gb hard drive on ebay. This mac has OS 9.2.2 installed. It has the AGP video. This is my first mac ever so any suggestions as to possible/recommended upgrades (OS, etc) would be appreciated. Could this machine run the iLife suite of programs? I have 2 pcs in the house hooked up to a wireless network via a linksys wrt54g router (dsl internet service). Could I get the mac to work with this router and surf wirelessly and if so, what would i need (except a wireless card) to accomplish this task. Thanks in advance for your courteous comments.

reader50 · Jan 9, 2007, 01:22 AM

That machine is getting old for serious upgrades - the cost to bring it close to modern performance exceeds the cost of a new desktop Mac. Adding more RAM would be the first suggestion, that box has 4 slots and can take a maximum module size of 512 MB, for a total of 2 GB. You'd want to get the RAM from a source that sells 512 modules for use in Macs, the more common generic 512 modules will either not recognize or come up as 256 modules.

It will mostly run iLife slowly, though iDVD may insist on it having a DVD drive installed. You didn't say what the optical drive type is, or identify the video card. The HD can be upgraded, the internal bus is ATA-66, and it is affected by the 128 GB limit. Further details on this limit and ways around it are in our PowerMac Storage FAQ thread.

The system can plug into your router via ethernet easily. Going on wirelessly will require an original Airport card, they are no longer made and tend to run $100+ on the used market. An 802.11 PCI card might work too, but I'll leave that answer to someone more familiar with wireless options.

It's hard to give other upgrade advice without knowing what you intend to use the system for. Was it just for iLife / browsing / email?

EricTheRed · Jan 9, 2007, 03:13 AM

I had that very mac. Yes, you can run iLife on it. You may want to throw in around 1 GB of RAM to make things like iMovie run a little faster and your mac is a solid web surfing machine as well.

DrBoar · Jan 10, 2007, 06:26 AM

The G4/400 correspond to a low end Pentium III. I would not spend much on it as it has several limitations such as AGP 2x and no USB2. However, If you intend to use in OS 9 then 256 MB of RAM and 400 MHz is plenty for most stuff.

If you plan to get OS X that is a current OS as XP and Vista on the PC side I suggest that you get a low end G4 upgrade (1.2 GHz G4 for 200 dollars at OWC). Add more memory as well, it is plain PC 100 memory so standard PC100 PC 133 from a pentium III will work.

At least in OS X you will find that many PCI wireless cards and also USB dongles work. How it is in OS 9 I am not sure. (WL-167g USB 2.0 Wireless WLAN Adapter 54 Megab... (WL-167G) at OWC)

OS X can be used with a 233 MHz G3 and 128 MB of RAM, but then it painfully slow. With a G4/400 and 256 MB of RAM (that was what I had in the begining with X) it is slow but not to bad. Upgrading the CPU will make OSX almost as fast as OS 9 with the G4/400.

SVass · Jan 10, 2007, 11:01 AM

Since I still have and use the same machine, I can respond directly.

I have OSX 10.4.8 and 448 mbyte of ram which is sufficient for most uses. I recommend adding an external firewire drive (which can later transition to other machines). that can also serve as a boot drive.

aoprods · Jan 10, 2007, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by SVass

Since I still have and use the same machine, I can respond directly.

I have OSX 10.4.8 and 448 mbyte of ram which is sufficient for most uses. I recommend adding an external firewire drive (which can later transition to other machines). that can also serve as a boot drive.

TY for the response. Can I upgrade from 9.2.2 to OSX 10.4.8 directly or must the upgrade be in incremental steps? I will definitely purchase more ram for this machine and consider a processor upgrade since i find it extremely slow compared to my pcs (P4s). Since I only paid $70 for this machine I don't mind spending a few more dollars if it is worth the $. Thanks again.

aoprods · Jan 10, 2007, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by EricTheRed

I had that very mac. Yes, you can run iLife on it. You may want to throw in around 1 GB of RAM to make things like iMovie run a little faster and your mac is a solid web surfing machine as well.

It seems that I need to upgrade the OS in order to install any of the programs that I would like to use on this machine, i.e., itunes, mozilla firefox, and even to upgrade quick time. I find it a little slow, relatively speaking, compard to my pcs but I will certainly look into more ram.

reader50 · Jan 10, 2007, 04:37 PM

OS 9 and OSX are separate upgrade families. You can go straight to OSX 10.4.x, then use the free updater to go to 10.4.8. Your OS 9 installation will become the Classic environment in OS X, though you will retain the ability to reboot into OS 9.

We need to know your current video card, in order to possibly suggest an upgrade. If you'd see a significant improvement vs the current card.

aoprods · Jan 10, 2007, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by reader50

OS 9 and OSX are separate upgrade families. You can go straight to OSX 10.4.x, then use the free updater to go to 10.4.8. Your OS 9 installation will become the Classic environment in OS X, though you will retain the ability to reboot into OS 9.

We need to know your current video card, in order to possibly suggest an upgrade. If you'd see a significant improvement vs the current card.

Thanks to all for the support and help. This is what I know so far about my mac:
Video Card: AGP - ATI, Rage 128 Pro with 16mb of vram
Hitachi DVD-ROM
MAC Pro Keyboard
Memory: 256mb PC100-322S
Hard Drive: 20gb Maxtor

I don't understand "Classic" environment and why would I need the ability to reboot into OS 9 if I have OS X installed? I consider myself pretty well versed in pc language but MAC is so new to me. I don't even know how to open programs without going to the hd icon on the desktop, ha, now I'm really embarrased.

Thanks again.

reader50 · Jan 10, 2007, 06:24 PM

Especially under OSX, you would benefit from a later video card. The current card does not support an OSX trick used to speed up rendering called Quartz Extreme. Any Radeon will help, or any nVidia card, GF 2MX, or GF 3 or later. They need to be cards with Mac firmware on them, the PC versions usually lack the firmware to function in a Mac. A few older nVidia cards reportedly had universal firmware.

You don't need the most powerful card. If you did splurge for the most powerful card your machine could take, it would be the Radeon 9800. This doesn't count the video card modding community, they have managed to get some later cards to work.

OS X and OS 9 are really separate operating systems. Applications built for OS 9 do not always run under OS X. Most will run in Classic (basically OS 9 running in a virtual environment under X), but a few apps (mostly games or hardware-related applications) need to run under OS 9 for real. This applies to legacy apps. As a new Mac owner, you are unlikely to have any legacy OS 9 applications.

EricTheRed · Jan 10, 2007, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by aoprods

It seems that I need to upgrade the OS in order to install any of the programs that I would like to use on this machine, i.e., itunes, mozilla firefox, and even to upgrade quick time. I find it a little slow, relatively speaking, compard to my pcs but I will certainly look into more ram.

When I had my G4 400 and went to OS X I found a gig of RAM really made things speed up. I also found a used ATI 8500 video card on ebay for a song and that spend up games like Neverwinter. I would imagine that used video cards are really inexpensive now-a-days for G4s should you go down that path.

If you can find one on the cheap, the fellow that suggested a CPU upgrade has a good idea as well. I thought about doing that to my G4 but the CPU upgrades where pretty expensive at the time so I upgraded to a G5.

aoprods · Jan 11, 2007, 12:47 PM

Thank for all the advice. I'm trying to find a video card replacement at this time along with more ram. I was told that the same size ram had to be used in all 4 slots and couldn't be mixed sizes. Is this correct? How about ram speed, can you use pc100 and pc133 together?

reader50 · Jan 11, 2007, 01:33 PM

Slots in this model do NOT need to be matched or paired. You can mix any combination. It takes PC100, but you can mix/use PC100 and PC133, provided the PC133 has the SPD settings for operation at PC100. All PC133 sticks should have those settings.

If they don't but are otherwise acceptable for Mac use, then an OS 9 utility can fix the SPD settings. Note: this is a reason to keep the OS 9 boot option, that particular RAM utility requires you to boot into 9.

aoprods · Jan 15, 2007, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by reader50

Slots in this model do NOT need to be matched or paired. You can mix any combination. It takes PC100, but you can mix/use PC100 and PC133, provided the PC133 has the SPD settings for operation at PC100. All PC133 sticks should have those settings.

If they don't but are otherwise acceptable for Mac use, then an OS 9 utility can fix the SPD settings. Note: this is a reason to keep the OS 9 boot option, that particular RAM utility requires you to boot into 9.

Thanks for the info. I just ordered 2 512mb sticks of ram and os x tiger. Since I only have a 20gb hard drive I'm also looking for another drive and still need to upgrade the video card. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

DrBoar · Jan 16, 2007, 04:22 AM

With such a slow CPU the gain from cards willl not be great. ATI 8500 and ATI 9000 are quite similar and are probably cheap on ebay. (Mac versions). There is a version of the ATI 9800 card that will run as well that is huge overkill and proably still quite expensive

bbales · Jan 16, 2007, 02:10 PM

I have that exact machine (6 years old -- was going to buy an updated machine after keynote but ... well, we all know there WEREN'T any new machines!). Mine has an upgraded processor (900 MZ) that I bought several years ago and 768 MB of RAM. I can run the ilife suites, I'm running Tiger, etc. A couple years ago I finally put in a new hard drive (those machines have issues with drive sizes, 120 or 128 is largest you can use. (can't remember which for sure.) I used the original graphics card for years and even now have only a slightly faster one I got on ebay. I use a router and have created a home network off it, with my original 12-inch PB.

I'm not throwing any more money into this one, as I'm in the market for an Intel mac. But it still works well. iphoto is slower than slow and it sometimes becomes really bogged down if there are lots of programs open (particularly photo editing), but it works well. Since you only paid $70 for it, you're right about being able to put some money into parts.

As others have pointed out, there ARE some limitations to it, and it IS older technology. But speaking as someone who uses that machine daily, it also works just fine.

aoprods · Jan 16, 2007, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by bbales

I have that exact machine (6 years old -- was going to buy an updated machine after keynote but ... well, we all know there WEREN'T any new machines!). Mine has an upgraded processor (900 MZ) that I bought several years ago and 768 MB of RAM. I can run the ilife suites, I'm running Tiger, etc. A couple years ago I finally put in a new hard drive (those machines have issues with drive sizes, 120 or 128 is largest you can use. (can't remember which for sure.) I used the original graphics card for years and even now have only a slightly faster one I got on ebay. I use a router and have created a home network off it, with my original 12-inch PB.

I'm not throwing any more money into this one, as I'm in the market for an Intel mac. But it still works well. iphoto is slower than slow and it sometimes becomes really bogged down if there are lots of programs open (particularly photo editing), but it works well. Since you only paid $70 for it, you're right about being able to put some money into parts.

As others have pointed out, there ARE some limitations to it, and it IS older technology. But speaking as someone who uses that machine daily, it also works just fine.

Thank you so much for your response. I was starting to get a little discouraged with my acquisition but feel a little better now. I realize it is not a new machine but wanted to learn about macs and couldn't afford the new technology. Regarding processor upgrades, on apples website there is a notation about os x tiger that it does not support processor upgrade cards. What are they referring to? You stated that you upgraded your processor and I would consider doing the same but I'm not sure how to go about it so it will work with tiger. Thanks again.

reader50 · Jan 16, 2007, 06:05 PM

It means Apple won't help you fix any issues arising from an upgrade card. If the card manufacturer says it works with Tiger, it will work.

I have a nearly identical machine, though it has 2 GB and a 1.2 GHz upgrade card in it. Tiger runs fine. Regarding hard drives, it will accept a parallel ATA hard drive of any size, but drives larger than 128 GB real (137 GB decimal) will have only the first 128 GB appear and be useable. There are several ways around that limitation, see or PowerMac Storage FAQ thread for the details.

aoprods · Jan 16, 2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by reader50

It means Apple won't help you fix any issues arising from an upgrade card. If the card manufacturer says it works with Tiger, it will work.

I have a nearly identical machine, though it has 2 GB and a 1.2 GHz upgrade card in it. Tiger runs fine. Regarding hard drives, it will accept a parallel ATA hard drive of any size, but drives larger than 128 GB real (137 GB decimal) will have only the first 128 GB appear and be useable. There are several ways around that limitation, see or PowerMac Storage FAQ thread for the details.

Thanks for all the info. Now a specific question. I just installed and additional gig of ram in my machine (1.2 total ram now). I also received today, my tiger os software. Since I haven't installed any software on my mac since I purchased it, should I do an "archive and install" or "erase and install"? The computer had os 9.2.2 installed when I purchased it and that is the only thing on it that I can see. Thanks for your help, this forum is awesome and so helpful.

G5power · Jan 16, 2007, 09:25 PM

If I follow the thread it sounds like you still have the 20GB drive installed, so I would recommend an "erase and install" to maximize the drive space that you do have.

The G4 towers are very easy to work with for upgrades. I would recommend finding a 120GB hard drive to install for more space. Other then a drive and the memory I would hesitate to recommend putting much more money in the system for upgrades.

For the initial $70 upgrade you have a great system to putz around with and check out OSX. Since you are starting at this point, I would totally scrap and not bother doing anything with OS9.

By the way a great book for you would be the Mac OS X Missing Manual by David Pogue. It will help you with the transition to using the new OS.

Be patient and have fun.

SierraDragon · 10:21 PM

You are on the right track. I would upgrade RAM to 1.5-2.0 GB total and find a cheap graphics card upgrade. I would not bother with the relatively expensive CPU upgrades, instead saving my money for a MacIntel box in the future.

Upgrading the HD is essential; I would do that first and install the new OS X on to the new 100+ GB sized hard drive. The OS and your apps should reside on that hard drive, which should not be partitioned. You can find an inexpensive internal hard drive at NewEgg.com or at OWC OWC: Apple Mac G4 upgrades, Laptop Batteries, Memory, Drives. I recommend calling OWC, because they are great folks and will competently hook you up with the best drive for your box. With NewEgg you take your chances. Keep the 20 GB drive for backup and use as a "scratch" disk if you ever run apps like Photoshop that use such a disk.

I would keep the existing OS on the 20 GB drive as is just in case a legacy app ever pops up, but normally boot into the OS X 100 GB drive. I strongly agree that you should not even think about OS 9 since it is basically a dead OS.

Note an important trick. Immediately prior to and immediately after each installation of anything, go to Disk Utility, select the boot drive, and Repair Permissions. In the long run religiously following that protocol tends to make for a cleaner system. (Note: There are folks that will denigrate the process of Repair Permissions, but they are simply wrong. For validation of the process one can do research at Apple.com, MacFixIt.com or on the Adobe Apple Photoshop Forums.)

-Allen Wicks

reader50 · Jan 17, 2007, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by SierraDragon

... I recommend calling OWC, because they are great folks and will competently hook you up with the best drive for your box. With NewEgg you take your chances.
...

'afraid I have to disagree with this. There are no Mac- or PC-drives. Any 3.5" PATA drive will work fine in this box. The only gotcha is that a 160 GB drive (or larger) will appear as a 128 GB drive. My own such box has had drives from Newegg and ZipZoomfly. No issues.

I did have a 20 GB in it at one time, but it got removed when I installed larger drives. Even though there was mounting space, and the extra storage made sense. But the later drives were so much quieter that I ended up removing the 20 to make the system more silent.

DrBoar · Jan 17, 2007, 03:59 AM

Do not upgrade the graphical card without upgrading the CPU unless you get the graphical card for free more or less.
I installed a ATI 8500 on my G4/400, it gave me a minor boost in Unreal Tournement and FAKK2 and nothing else. The CPU upgrade later gave a huge boost to everything.

I would say that with 256 MB RAM, 20 GB HD and a 1.0-1.2 GHz upgrade you are better of than with 2GB RAM 120 GB HD ATI 9800 and the G4/400. In my experience the G4/400 is CPU limited adding more RAM, bigger HD and better Graphics will all give minor boosts. Adding a faster CPU will boost everything. Before the G4 I had both a 7200/90 and a 7300/200 adding a faster graphical card in the 7200 with its 90 MHz CPU boosted 2D speed (scrolling and such) with less than 20%, putting the same card in the 7300 with its 200 MHz CPU gave more than a 100% speed boost.

Either keep it it is or start with the OWC 1.2 GHz G4 for 199 USD before spending money on HDs RAM and graphics.

aoprods · Jan 17, 2007, 11:58 AM

I installed an additional gig of ram (1.25GB total ram) and osx tiger. Installation of the os went very smooth, as i expected. However, now I can't get the dvd rom to respond to remove the tiger os disk. Any ideas or remedies? Thanks, Ray

reader50 · Jan 17, 2007, 12:42 PM

Does the DVD appear on your desktop, or in Finder listings?

If it does, but refuses to unmount, some application is using it. Something other than the Finder.

If it doesn't show as mounted anywhere, the old DVD drive may have lost track of the disk.

Use your fingernail on an upper corner of the optical bay cover. It isn't latched, only held shut by a spring. Tilt the door down, to expose the standard DVD drive behind it. There, you will find the usual paperclip hole to manually eject a disk.

bbales · Jan 17, 2007, 01:33 PM

Restarting the machine should open the drive bay, too.

By the way, to the original poster, I got my processor upgrade through OWC. They were GREAT. I had a problem with one of the settings, called them up, on a Saturday no less, and the person walked me right through the process. And of course, right after I installed mine, the price dropped. Oh well. The OWC site will even let you know what processors will work with what machines. You will see quite a big jump in performance with the processor upgrade. I doubt if I still would be using this machine without it.

And I second the proposal to get the David Pogue "Missing Manual" book. It's invaluable.