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shifuimam · May 24, 2009, 05:40 PM

From this article:

If Ford Motor Co. wants to update an old slogan, it might consider "Capitalism is job one" -- because its outlook today, far brighter than that of General Motors and Chrysler, speaks volumes about the free market's virtues and government control's perils.

Ford essentially mortgaged nearly everything it owned in late 2006 to raise $23.6 billion in capital markets. That money financed a product-line overhaul that's now filling showrooms with new models that can compete with Japanese and Korean models' quality and fuel efficiency.

Ford still hasn't taken a dime of government money and now has rising U.S. market share, a stock price that has tripled in less than two months, the No. 2 rank in U.S. sales for April (beating Toyota) and plans for a $2 billion stock offering. That's all inconceivable for GM and Chrysler, which took federal bailouts that enabled the government, not stockholders, to control them. And now, GM likely is just days away from joining Chrysler in bankruptcy reorganization.

Ford's future hardly is secure. It still has to repay creditors without government help, after all. But on Wall Street and on dealer lots, investors and auto buyers are rewarding Ford for the risk it took in obtaining private, free-market financing and relying on private management.

That's how capitalism ought to work. Ford is proving it does.

It's going to be pretty ironic if GM and Chrysler both go belly-up and Ford sticks around...

turtle777 · May 24, 2009, 08:41 PM

Pfff, it ain't gonna happen.

Obummer is making sure that Ford will go bankrupt as well.

GM and Chrysler get government assistance, which really is nothing more than massive subsidies.
Ford will not be able to get profitable as long as GM and Chrysler get money shoved up their collective asses.

Example: government money for GMAC, so GMAC can make cheap loans to consumers.
Ford doesn't get money for its financing, so it has to take market interest rates and apply market risk models.

Guess what, a consumer will much easier and cheaper get a loan from GMAC than from Ford. Hence, their cars are subsidized.

The whole government intervention will once again have perverse effects: the bad companies get rewarded, and the prudent companies get punished.

America's economy is f***ed if this continues.

-t

Andy8 · May 24, 2009, 08:53 PM

You may get just one US based auto brand, which could be assets from each of the failed 3.

One is better than none.

shifuimam · May 25, 2009, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

GM and Chrysler get government assistance, which really is nothing more than massive subsidies.
Ford will not be able to get profitable as long as GM and Chrysler get money shoved up their collective asses.

Maybe...but as that article shows, Ford is doing considerably better than both GM and Chrysler.

They still have a lot of debt to repay, but they're turning a profit and don't appear remotely close to declaring bankruptcy.

Laminar · May 26, 2009, 11:01 AM

Korean models' quality and fuel efficiency

Lawl.

Originally Posted by turtle777

Obummer

Never gets old, does it?

sek929 · May 26, 2009, 12:28 PM

Hyundai makes one hell of a fuel efficient reliable car, and I had an old mechanic (like 70+ old) that swears by his Kia.

They don't have pep, or anything resembling pep and the styling is an....interesting....blend of other manufacturers designs but with a 10yr/100,000 mile warranty and the asking price you really can't go wrong.

Good to hear Ford is doing this well, I really hope they can successfully show the world that Americans still might be able to run a car company.

olePigeon · May 26, 2009, 12:41 PM

Ford actually has a foreign market. They build cars for specific markets in both Europe and Asia, so Ford has had to diversify their auto portfolio. I think that is one of the main reasons why Ford is doing relatively well compared to GM and Chrysler. GM and Chrysler only make typical American cars, they can't compete with the more efficient Asian and European cars even when they do produce vehicles in foreign markets.

Unfortunately Chrysler is completely incompetent. This means I'll probably never own a Dodge Challenger.

olePigeon · 01:24 PM

Oh. And the new SRT10 that was announced last year. It's an SRT8 with a Dodge Viper SRT10 engine. Has air scoops and everything.

you Chrysler. You have to ruin my dreams.

Laminar · May 26, 2009, 02:30 PM

SRT8 / SRT10 all caps

ctt1wbw · May 27, 2009, 08:25 AM

Oh. My. God.

ort888 · May 29, 2009, 05:28 PM

That's because Ford doesn't use unions...

(s)macintosh · Jun 2, 2009, 12:06 AM

Here's a news flash: ALL American car manufacturers suck.

<consumers>: We want better gas mileage and better safety!
<Big 4>: Here's the new Hummer!

The American car industry is fascinated by the Baby Boomer generation and has been for the last 20 years; They've produced all the CRAP they've requested. Now that the Boomers have stopped spending bucketloads of cash, they're all scrambling to garner any profits that they can. Gen X is happy with their efficient Toyota Camry's and low emissions. We ask for cars Detroit can't build because they've always assumed the old farts from the previous generation would always ask for them.

Is anyone here seriously dismayed that the Pontiac brand is going away?

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 05:57 AM

The US has cars that get great gas mileage. Just because the H2 doesn't, doesn't mean that ALL US cars suck and get bad gas mileage. I could say the same about Japan. The new sports car based on the 350 (what's it called?) gets horrible gas mileage, therefore all Japanese cars suck.

OreoCookie · Jun 2, 2009, 06:55 AM

The difference is that two of the three big American car manufacturers have declared Chapter 11 while the Japanese haven't.

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 07:46 AM

I've said it numerous times. EVERYONE'S sales are down. EVERYONE'S. Chapter 11 doesn't have any bearing on quality and fuel effeciency.

BadKosh · Jun 2, 2009, 08:07 AM

Just because the UAW was screwing the auto manufacturers?

shifuimam · Jun 2, 2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

That's because Ford doesn't use unions...

Wait, wat?

I didn't know that. I figured all three of them were under the UAW.

American auto manufacturers are indeed learning that bigger isn't always better. There have been some pretty good fuel-efficient options as of late. If Ford plays their cards right, they'll survive this thing while the other two fold.

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 08:42 AM

They're not going to fold. I declared Chapter 7 back in 2001. I have two properties and some new cars. I didn't fold. They won't either.

turtle777 · Jun 2, 2009, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

That's because Ford doesn't use unions...

Why do you keep posting stuff that seems to come straight out of ~~your anus~~ your location ?

-t

ort888 · Jun 2, 2009, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

They're not going to fold. I declared Chapter 7 back in 2001. I have two properties and some new cars. I didn't fold. They won't either.

So while you are on here constantly talking about this person or that person being stupid or irresponsible or mooching off the government... we all got to pay for your own financial failure 8 years ago.

Awesome.

Originally Posted by turtle777

Why do you keep posting stuff that seems to come straight out of ~~your anus~~ your location ?

-t

People keep saying that GM and Chrysler are going out of business because of Unions... but Ford uses Unions as well. So it's obviously not just that.

Laminar · Jun 2, 2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

The US has cars that get great gas mileage. Just because the H2 doesn't, doesn't mean that ALL US cars suck and get bad gas mileage. I could say the same about Japan. The new sports car based on the 350 (what's it called?) gets horrible gas mileage, therefore all Japanese cars suck.

The Nissan 370z? It's rated at 18/26, which is fantastic. What does your truck get again? 10/16?

Big Mac · Jun 2, 2009, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

So while you are on here constantly talking about this person or that person being stupid or irresponsible or mooching off the government... we all got to pay for your own financial failure 8 years ago.

Awesome.

No one's paying for ctt1wbw's old bankruptcy. The companies he owed money to simply wrote the loans off and receive tax benefit from doing so. He got a fresh start. The founders of the country, many of whom had debts themselves, made sure to enshrine bankruptcy as a core right in the law.

turtle777 · Jun 2, 2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

People keep saying that GM and Chrysler are going out of business because of Unions... but Ford uses Unions as well. So it's obviously not just that.

AFAIK, the unions made significant concessions towards Fors, more than GM and Chrysler.

Why ? Well, let me guess: the government is going to bail out Chrysler and GM, hence, the unions have no need to budge, because they are golden with the Obama administration.

Can you see how this worked to push GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy ?

-t

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

The Nissan 370z? It's rated at 18/26, which is fantastic. What does your truck get again? 10/16?

Not the 370z, but the other one that looks like it. I can't remember the name. And once again, just because my truck gets less gas mileage than other vehicles, doesn't mean that ALL US cars get crappy gas mileage. And I bet a million bucks that the owner of a 370z goes through more gas than I do.

My truck is one year old. It has 6100 miles on it. So who uses more gas?

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

So while you are on here constantly talking about this person or that person being stupid or irresponsible or mooching off the government... we all got to pay for your own financial failure 8 years ago.

Awesome.

People keep saying that GM and Chrysler are going out of business because of Unions... but Ford uses Unions as well. So it's obviously not just that.

Well, I'm not going to lay blame on my bad decisions, but there were two other factors that made it worse for me. One, I went with a credit counselor, which was a BAD mistake. For 6 months, they paid the wrong people and wouldn't fix the problem. Later on down the road, the Radisson Hotel that my wife was a manager at went bankrupt and several of her rather large paychecks bounced. So several things hurt us beyond our control, but overall the credit cards just got out of hand. They weren't much totaled together, but something had to be done.

But I came back and since then my wife and I have owned several small businesses, one of which actually employed people. We made payroll, hired and fired people.... which is more than our illustrious Indonesian president has done.

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

The Nissan 370z? It's rated at 18/26, which is fantastic. What does your truck get again? 10/16?

Oh, and I'm actually using my truck for the business we OWN right now.

shifuimam · Jun 2, 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

People keep saying that GM and Chrysler are going out of business because of Unions... but Ford uses Unions as well. So it's obviously not just that.

Here's the thing - it seems like you do think through why you have this or that opinion on a given political issue, but you're not really doing yourself any favors by posting a lot of the stuff you post - it makes you sound reactionary and uneducated, whereas I don't think that's necessarily the case with you.

I understand playing devil's advocate to make people think more, but there's a better way to do it, IMO. It DOES sound like you're pulling BS out of your tushie, rather than trying to use sarcasm to convey your opinion on the matter.

ort888 · Jun 2, 2009, 12:03 PM

You want me to use sarcasm more? Like that'll work.

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No one's paying for ctt1wbw's old bankruptcy. The companies he owed money to simply wrote the loans off and receive tax benefit from doing so. He got a fresh start. The founders of the country, many of whom had debts themselves, made sure to enshrine bankruptcy as a core right in the law.

Oh, I forgot to add that I included my cars, but still kept paying for them. Your allowed to do that.

ort888 · Jun 2, 2009, 12:19 PM

Tax breaks for companies = we all pay for
companies eating the loss = we all pay pay higher prices

I love how poor people on welfare or people who bought too big of a house are lazy mooching bums but people who declare bankruptcy are getting a fresh start as our founding fathers wanted.

turtle777 · Jun 2, 2009, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

Tax breaks for companies = we all pay for
companies eating the loss = we all pay pay higher prices

Uhm, economics 101 FAIL.

Tax breaks for companies = we all pay for
Companies eating the loss = you pay for it IF YOU BUY THEIR PRODUCTS!!!1!

Do you understand that this is exactly the reason why companies should go bankrupt ?
Because they don't make products that people are willing to pay the demanded price.
For the government to step in and say "F***ck it, if people don't want to buy the overpriced sh!t, then we're gonna MAKE THE PEOPLE pay through taxes for it. This is straight-up marxist/socialist.

-t

ctt1wbw · Jun 2, 2009, 12:46 PM

You don't pay for tax breaks for companies. If you did, there'd be a check somewhere from you. Tax breaks are just that, tax breaks. That represents money not coming in over and above what is already coming in through taxes. You don't miss it because it's not there.

ort888 · Jun 2, 2009, 01:12 PM

Company gets tax break = less money to go towards things taxes pay for = more of my tax money goes toward something the company should have been paying for

Also, isn't it almost always the credit card companies and banks on the hook when people go bankrupt? Since about 95% of the population uses credit cards and banks, when people go bankrupt, it raises the rates for everyone, since it's all built into the cost. Your bankruptcy is being paid for with my higher interest rates and by fees that are being passed onto to every business in the country. Yes it's spread out, but it's there.

Someone is paying for it...

Also, while I'm sure there are very legitimate reasons to declare bankruptcy, I will say (conjecturally) that everyone I know who has done it was a complete dumbass with their money, and completely boned the system and walked away from the deal sitting pretty. For many people it's the easy way out for decades of being a complete bonehead.

turtle777 · Jun 2, 2009, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

Also, isn't it almost always the credit card companies and banks on the hook when people go bankrupt? Since about 95% of the population uses credit cards and banks, when people go bankrupt, it raises the rates for everyone...

Someone is paying for it...

Sure, somebody will.

But it still gives people a choice. You don't HAVE to carry a credit card balance and pay for other's defaults.

Originally Posted by ort888

... bankruptcy [...] was a complete dumbass with their money, and completely boned the system and walked away from the deal sitting pretty.

Sure sounds like GM to me

-t

ort888 · Jun 2, 2009, 01:35 PM

It's not just people who carry balances that pay. Credit card companies charge businesses fees every time anyone uses their card. Fees for businesses = higher prices for everyone.

Yes, it does sound like GM. Screw GM. You are mistaking me for someone who is pleased about the GM bailout... because I'm not.

Andy8 · Jun 3, 2009, 12:33 AM

Hummer to be sold to Chinese firm

ctt1wbw · Jun 3, 2009, 06:18 AM

Even the military versions? What company makes the military version?

turtle777 · Jun 3, 2009, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Even the military versions? What company makes the military version?

Same Company, AM General in Mishawaka, IN.

I lived close to there for a while.

-t

ctt1wbw · Jun 3, 2009, 08:24 AM

So does this mean that China is going to make US military hardware now?

turtle777 · Jun 3, 2009, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

So does this mean that China is going to make US military hardware now?

Obviously.

But the Hummer isn't exactly high-tech. I don't see the big issue.

-t

ShortcutToMoncton · Jun 3, 2009, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No one's paying for ctt1wbw's old bankruptcy. The companies he owed money to simply wrote the loans off and receive tax benefit from doing so. He got a fresh start. The founders of the country, many of whom had debts themselves, made sure to enshrine bankruptcy as a core right in the law.

I know little about bankruptcy, but I have a friend whose small business took a serious hit when a large (and primary) customer of his filed for bankruptcy. He didn't seem to think that "no one was paying for the bankruptcy" when I talked to him.

Do you (or anyone else) know if is as painless on business creditors as you indicate? They don't take a hit?

My only experience with personal bankruptcy came from a family friend who filed, and who (it was discovered) owed a lot of friends and relatives (including my family) a significant amount of money from personal, "trust-me" loans. That certainly wasn't painless. It certainly isn't painless now, when he has a new house and drives a Dodge Charger and didn't return the thousands of dollars he wrangled from trusting friends.

greg

ctt1wbw · Jun 3, 2009, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Obviously.

But the Hummer isn't exactly high-tech. I don't see the big issue.

-t

Okay, so then sell Northrop Grumman Newport News Shipbuilding to the Chinese then.

turtle777 · Jun 3, 2009, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

Okay, so then sell Northrop Grumman Newport News Shipbuilding to the Chinese then.

I think that building an aircraft carrier is slightly more high-tech than building a vehicle.

But that's just met.

-t

ort888 · Jun 3, 2009, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

I know little about bankruptcy, but I have a friend whose small business took a serious hit when a large (and primary) customer of his filed for bankruptcy. He didn't seem to think that "no one was paying for the bankruptcy" when I talked to him.

Do you (or anyone else) know if is as painless on business creditors as you indicate? They don't take a hit?

My only experience with personal bankruptcy came from a family friend who filed, and who (it was discovered) owed a lot of friends and relatives (including my family) a significant amount of money from personal, "trust-me" loans. That certainly wasn't painless. It certainly isn't painless now, when he has a new house and drives a Dodge Charger and didn't return the thousands of dollars he wrangled from trusting friends.

greg

Bankruptcy is a victimless crime... like punching someone in the dark.

turtle777 · Jun 3, 2009, 11:01 AM

^^^ What the hell is this supposed to mean ?

-t

ctt1wbw · Jun 3, 2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

I think that building an aircraft carrier is slightly more high-tech than building a vehicle.

But that's just met.

-t

My point was that I don't think China, a Communist country, should be building our Hummers for the military.

OreoCookie · Jun 3, 2009, 11:37 AM

The US military can still order equipment from other companies which are based in Western countries. It's a free market after all.

OreoCookie · Jun 3, 2009, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No one's paying for ctt1wbw's old bankruptcy. The companies he owed money to simply wrote the loans off and receive tax benefit from doing so. He got a fresh start. The founders of the country, many of whom had debts themselves, made sure to enshrine bankruptcy as a core right in the law.

Non-sense, there's always a domino effect, particularly so for smaller businesses. If a larger customer goes belly up, so could they. Of course, they have bills they won't be able to pay either and so on.

Andy8 · Jun 3, 2009, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw

My point was that I don't think China, a Communist country, should be building our Hummers for the military.

You would prefer that Hummer goes bust and all the 3000 stateside jobs are lost?

Big Mac · 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Non-sense, there's always a domino effect, particularly so for smaller businesses. If a larger customer goes belly up, so could they. Of course, they have bills they won't be able to pay either and so on.

There is always risk associated with loaning money. A company that loans money needs to mitigate risk so that it doesn't go out of business when there are defaults. Bankruptcy isn't a wonderful option, but it's available when necessary. It probably pays for itself by making entrepreneurship and debt financing attractive enough for people to engage in it in spite of the risk of things not paying off.