[wolfen]

So about 2 years ago I started working for this IT services shop. Not a bad group. They never had to advertise. People only hear about us by word of mouth.

Now, 2 years later, the boom is officially bust and business is not going well. Their answer? Lay people off one by one until things get better. They still don't advertise. We're not even listed in the yellow pages. Our web page is basically a placeholder. Why? "Because if we get new customers we'd begin to have some A/R issues. Some people wouldn't pay. Our current customer base is reliable about paying so it's nice not having to worry about that." Yeah, real geniuses. I could lose my house because they don't want to do a little extra accounting. (The accountant is the wife of one of the company's partners)

Last week in a meeting the boss chewed us all out for not making the most of our free time. Real charmer. Seems my studying for certifications (preparing my parachute) is not productive to their bottom line. Meanwhile we are given no training or training materials whatsoever, and customers simply aren't calling us because they are trying to trim their costs these days.

So, big sigh, the economy is horrid and I'm worried about having to find a job among a glut of other unemployed IT people. This is why I've been particularly acerbic here at MacNN for about a year.

Thanks for the vent.

wolfen

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Look for another job right now.

[DeathToWindows]

activate chute.

[Yose]

I've got a job in a similiar environment (granted I'm part-time). working in the service/support department of an Authorized Apple Reseller. We have a horrible identity and never advertise, however, our sales team are almost always on the phone calling prospective clients and generating sales... which in turn push our service department... So my point? Sometimes not advertising can work if you've got the staff and they have the means to promote in other ways (which.. I guess is just another way of advertisig).

...I hope you're able to find something else in a more active company g'luck!

[ambush]

Originally posted by wolfen:
So about 2 years ago I started working for this IT services shop. Not a bad group. They never had to advertise. People only hear about us by word of mouth.

Now, 2 years later, the boom is officially bust and business is not going well. Their answer? Lay people off one by one until things get better. They still don't advertise. We're not even listed in the yellow pages. Our web page is basically a placeholder. Why? "Because if we get new customers we'd begin to have some A/R issues. Some people wouldn't pay. Our current customer base is reliable about paying so it's nice not having to worry about that." Yeah, real geniuses. I could lose my house because they don't want to do a little extra accounting. (The accountant is the wife of one of the company's partners)

Last week in a meeting the boss chewed us all out for not making the most of our free time. Real charmer. Seems my studying for certifications (preparing my parachute) is not productive to their bottom line. Meanwhile we are given no training or training materials whatsoever, and customers simply aren't calling us because they are trying to trim their costs these days.

So, big sigh, the economy is horrid and I'm worried about having to find a job among a glut of other unemployed IT people. This is why I've been particularly acerbic here at MacNN for about a year.

Thanks for the vent.

wolfen

You need to watch American Beauty. Now.

More later

[Big Mac]

l find it troubling that some people believe strong GDP, with 5.6% unemployment and low inflation constitutes a horrid economy. I sympathize with those who are having employment difficulties, but by normal standards this a strong economy. If it's not working for you, find some way to adapt to it.

[voyageur]

^Someone's a bit out of touch. Heard the phrase "jobless recovery" at all?

[wolfen]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
l find it troubling that some people believe strong GDP, with 5.6% unemployment and low inflation constitutes a horrid economy. I sympathize with those who are having employment difficulties, but by normal standards this a strong economy. If it's not working for you, find some way to adapt to it.

Troubled, eh? And when does this so called sympathy of yours show up?

There are extremely few positions available for what I do. I know very qualified people in numerous industries who have not had a job in a year. The gov't reports aren't really helping this at all. I look at my gas prices, my employment opportunities, my customers going out of business, my company laying people off, and all the forecasts of future layoffs by Fortune 500 companies. From this I believe that the most important numbers right now are the debt numbers -- and they are through the roof.

People are living on prayers and hopes right now. Just because they're scraping by doesn't change that. While the problem may not be obvious from 50,000 feet up, it is real.

The glass is half empty/half full at the macro scale, but it's only 1/4 full for me and the people I know.

[Link]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
l find it troubling that some people believe strong GDP, with 5.6% unemployment and low inflation constitutes a horrid economy. I sympathize with those who are having employment difficulties, but by normal standards this a strong economy. If it's not working for you, find some way to adapt to it.

It's strong and weak at the same time. In a way we're doing better than we have in a long time. Property prices are steadily rising, the average pay rate has gone up, and well, that's about it.

It seems like the economy has helped a bit in making the poor poorer and the rich richer

[Orion27]

I'm on a Mac, I don't need no stinkin' IT!

[Orion27]

On a similiar note. The IT people I run into could be a techno version of the voodoo man.
They hover over the server with their backs turned and shoulders blocking the the view of screen and keyboard. The virus scam has pissed people off. Caller: I think I have a virus. IT
You're right, it has gone into your HD and trashed your video card drivers. I'm going to have to take your machine to the shop where I can save all your data and reinstall XP 2004
PRO Pre Longhorn AD ( after death). Oh by the way I would install a new HD and videocard
just to be safe. I"ll order up the scam mail drip filter software along with the scam ware HD drip filter. Take this sprinkle dust too and dribble it around the base of your computer.
I think they're hirinng at the 3 card Monte stand in Times Square.

[Big Mac]

People are surviving on prayers, wolfen? That laughable. You make it sound as if we're in the midst of a depression. You either have a short memory or no historical reference. ( Either that, or you're a democratic operative, in which case you have a vested interest in talking down the economy during the election cycle. ) As I said before, I'm sorry things aren't working out for you and everyone else who is having problems, but you make things out to be far worse than they really are. If you truly think this is a poor economy, then you should brace yourself - the economy has been much worse, even in the recent past.

[disectamac]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
People are surviving on prayers, wolfen? That laughable. You make it sound as if we're in the midst of a depression. You either have a short memory or no historical reference. ( Either that, or you're a democratic operative, in which case you have a vested interest in talking down the economy during the election cycle. ) As I said before, I'm sorry things aren't working out for you and everyone else who is having problems, but you make things out to be far worse than they really are. If you truly think this is a poor economy, then you should brace yourself - the economy has been much worse, even in the recent past.

How about no. If you going to make a statement about the economy at least be relevant and specific. Saying the ecomony here is great has absolutely nothing to do with the price of eggs in China. The eggs in this thread are one persons job at his place of work and a few peoples jobs in their job sector (IT). A growing GDP doesn't translate into jobs, not in 2004. 5.6% may seem like a small number if you're talking about the interest rate on my Visa but we're talking about jobs in the U.S. and that translates into millions of unemployed souls. Don't say, "Germany has a higher employment rate", I may just blow my top. . The unemployment rate here may drop to below 3% and IT Joe may still be unemployed because someone does it for less in India, or Malaysia.

Generating work in the IT sector isn't what it seemed it would be a few years ago when thousands jumped on the bandwagon to pursue an education for it. Now they're looking for work or flipping burgers, or driving a bus. IT jobs, and any other service related jobs that doesn't require face to face interaction are being exported overseas. This trend will continue unless there is change in Washington. To add to Woflens mess, his place of work sounds like a poorly run business.

One persons individual experience may differ from others.

[iWrite]

And like I argued in another thread, outsourcing to India for all of our IT service support, etc., has REALLY hurt the economy.

If you want to be upset, be upset with companies like HP, Dell, GE, etc.

Because they have sent millions of jobs overseas with plans to send more.

Also, even if it wasn't YOUR particular job that was outsourced, it means that someone else's job that was is now competing for YOUR position.

On top of that, Bush is inviting the Mexicans into the country left and right to work and to get an education -- which also means that they will be using other resources such as schools and medical facilities. This will further weaken the economy.

As a person who voted for Bush, I won't be doing it again. ("Soccer mom" who also works part-time making a comment.)



Wolfen: What part of the country are you in?

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by iWrite:
On top of that, Bush is inviting the Mexicans into the country left and right to work and to get an education -- which also means that they will be using other resources such as schools and medical facilities. This will further weaken the economy.

Ummm, I wouldn't say Bush is "inviting" people from Mexico in to this country... they are already here (I'm sure all of the gardeners and construction people in this area are legal US citizens). Bush is just trying to get them to pay taxes and to make their employers justify just why they are employing illegal aliens.

[Vader�s Pinch of Death]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
People are surviving on prayers, wolfen? That laughable. You make it sound as if we're in the midst of a depression.

Ya 2 wars at the same time and constant terrorist alerts is nothing but good for the economy.

[iWrite]

Are you joking?

He just said that they (Mexican citizens) can come and go as they please with only an ID card!

This is the "deal" he made this weekend at his ranch in Crawford with Fox.

I mean, give me a break. The rest of the world has to submit to background checks and even retina scans, but coming through Mexico means you just show an ID card.

GEE, that's REALLY good for a country supposedly in lockdown due to terrorism.

The truth is that Wolfen is like a LOT of other people in that his job is in danger or being phased out and the economy is very poor. I just read the labor report and not only are companies not giving annual raises to keep up with inflation, but they are laying people off left and right. "Middle management" no longer exists with most companies. Downsizing is standard. People can take what they have or leave, period. They take it.

It's VERY expensive to live right now. Gas is over $2 a gallon in most places and it's predicted that it will be $3 a gallon by the end of the summer. Food is also extremely expensive.

Credit card debt is higher than it ever has been in history. Why? Because people are putting their daily living expenses on a credit card. Bankruptcies are skyrocketing. Only 2% of Americans are ABLE to save ANY money each month for the future. 2%! Why? Because Americans use, on average, 78% of their take home salary/pay to pay JUST the mortgage and revolving debt. That leaves only 22% to survive on for everything else. Think about what you make a month and then calculate what you're paying for rent or a mortgage.

Meanwhile, the largest banks that are behind the credit cards are lobbying Bush to change the criteria for bankruptcy so that people will be forced to pay back debt instead of declaring bankruptcy -- and he supports this measure. People who cannot make it -- literally -- will now be under a Chapter 13 (versus Chapter 7) and will have to make quarterly visits to a federal magistrate to justify their spending and lives. For up to 4 years.

Did you know that if you take out a $2000 credit card and max it out and then make $50 a month payments on that card at 18% interest that it will take you 62 months to pay it off and you will pay, in addition to the $2000, an additional $1077 in interest? The "average" household has $8000 in debt. The government is in debt to the tune of about $18,000 PER PERSON -- that is why the deficit is staggering and has never been higher. As was said in the Martha Stewart thread, our taxes are not paying for ANYTHING right now...except interest on national debt. Nothing.

And the health care system? HA HA. We are paying $14,000 a year for health care. The average cost per month per family is $558 -- matched by the employer (the employer also pays $558) and the only saving grace is that you an pay your portion on the cafeteria plan. That is about $11,000 a year for health insurance and does not take into account that the national average deductible rate has DOUBLED this year. For instance, if you paid $15 co-pay for an office visit to a physician it is now $30. People are having to pay for emergency room visits and hospital stays.

The insurance industry, in general, is out of control.

Who pays for it? US. We do. We are paying for it and the problem is that the economy cannot support it -- specifically, the middle class. The average joe.

The "haves" in this country have a LOT more and the "have nots" have a LOT less. The middle class is working their *sses off for a measly tax break and the corporations and the very wealthy are unaffected -- and getting huge tax breaks courtesy of this administration.

Finally, for the first time in history, it seems that our "war economy" did not expand as has historically always been the case. It's fallen flat. We're in a war that was unnecessary.

Yes, our country was attacked, but that did not justify taking a country with a weak economy to war to spend BILLIONS in another country when our country not only needed the money at home, but also needed the attention of our president.

<rant over>

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by iWrite:
On top of that, Bush is inviting the Mexicans into the country left and right to work and to get an education -- which also means that they will be using other resources such as schools and medical facilities. This will further weaken the economy.

their is a shortage in low-level service jobs, the Mexicans entering the country will fill these spots, or do you really think they are competing for wolfen's job


WOLFEN:
what I would recomend wolfen, is to stop learning more about the sector you are in and work on learning about a new sector. IE. If you learn a bunch about the health care sector, you are more likely to be hired by a health care provider in an IT possition. The more you know about the specific industry the better

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by iWrite:
As was said in the Martha Stewart thread, our taxes are not paying for ANYTHING right now...except interest on national debt. Nothing.

that is not true at all...

[iWrite]

Yes, successful people DO adapt to change so Wolfen should also, I suppose. But there is a huge difference between choosing to do it and being shoved into it out of pure survival mentality.

Remember the model of organisms in biology in college?

I remember it well: "Organisms that survive are the organisms that are readily able to adapt to change."

I try to raise our kids to expect change so that they aren't thrown for a loop as adults. The saying is "The only constant is change," I believe. Still, when you're poor or elderly (and poor) change is extremely difficult or impossible. People will endure so much stress that they will become sick and even die.

About the people coming into this country and filling low-wage jobs? Fine.

But what about the DRAIN on other services? For instance, a family comes into the country and works in California and then has a medical problem or has a baby here in this country. They don't have health insurance. Who pays for it? The hospital, under federal law, MUST treat them -- to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars. Who pays that bill? I'll tell you who: The people who pay for insurance, you and me, because the hospital raises rates and costs to the patients and the insurance companies in order to cover their costs. The alternative is that they go bankrupt and shut down -- leaving people to then go to another neighboring hospital and overwhelm that hospital also.

And their children who attend school here. Who pays for that? The average cost of education per child in my state is $18,000 a year. So, now I, as the average taxpayer, am also paying for someone else's child's education -- who isn't even a citizen.

So, you see, it isn't as easy as saying, "Well, we wouldn't want that job anyway so get someone else to do it." Their benefits in this country cost the American taxpayer a LOT of money.

You want an example? Just examine California. California is BANKRUPT right now and their health care system is in chaos due, in large part, to illegal immigrants. Check it out on Google or research it and then you'll see for yourself.

[iWrite]

You want to argue about national debt?

KRUSTY....where ARE you?



He'll set you straight!

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Yes, remember the model of organisms in biology in college?

I remember it well: "Organisms that survive are the organisms that are readily able to adapt to change."

About the people coming into this country and filling low-wage jobs? Fine.

But what about the DRAIN on other services? For instance, a family comes into the country and works in California and then has a medical problem or has a baby here in this country. They don't have health insurance. Who pays for it? The hospital, under federal law, MUST treat them -- to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars. Who pays that bill?

And their children who attend school here. Who pays for that? The average cost of education per child in my state is $18,000 a year. So, now I, as the average taxpayer, am also paying for someone else's child's education -- who isn't even a citizen.

So, you see, it isn't as easy as saying, "Well, we wouldn't want that job anyway so get someone else to do it." Their benefits in this country cost the American taxpayer a LOT of money.

You want an example? Just examine California. California is BANKRUPT right now and their health care system is in chaos due, in large part, to illegal immigrants. Check it out on Google or research it and then you'll see for yourself.

doesn't this apply to all poor people?

it is a good point, and I will admit that I don't know the specifics of the President's plan, but it seems to me that they will have to pay taxes to us? Also, Someone really needs to pick the tomatoes, and you know that no one besides an immigrant will do that

and California, isnt so much a good example of how to run a state...

but like i said, it is a problem to think about

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by iWrite:
You want to argue about national debt?

KRUSTY....where ARE you?



He'll set you straight!

ha ha, i am really fiscally conservative, i was just disagreeing that all our taxes go only to pay interest on our national debt, you even contradict yourself when you later claim in the post about the president spending tax dollars for the war in iraq

[iWrite]

"doesn't it apply to all poor people?"

What do you mean?

Oh, gosh, here is a registered Republican sounding like a Democrat -- yikes!

But, here goes...

Yes, SOME poor people are able to adapt and adjust to change. SOME. But, it's very difficult. It's a cycle: You cannot get a decent job because you cannot afford an education. You cannot live in a place where your children will receive a better education because you cannot afford to.

Let's get even more basic. We have a LOT of immigrants working in our state picking citrus. They live in camps. They make less than minimum wage. They are exploited by the big ranches and farms -- Dole is a very good example. These people live in work camps and they buy their food at the "store" that is at the work camp. They charge these people double and triple the cost of the actual item. A loaf of bread for $4. A gallon of milk for $5. These are people that are making $5 to $6 an hour. Their children do not attend school -- if they're 12 or older they work with their parents.

You think this is acceptable? Think again. I think it's disgusting and wrong.

There are a LOT of articles on the exploitation of immigrants with no education and no means to effect any sort of upward mobility.

Saying that all Mexicans or other immigrants (such as Guatemalans, etc.,) can come and go not only compromises national security, but it exploits the less fortunate.

[iWrite]

i was just disagreeing that all our taxes go only to pay interest on our national debt, you even contradict yourself when you later claim in the post about the president spending tax dollars for the war in iraq

Okay, I'm getting out of this conversation right now because it's starting to get to be

But, I never said that the president was spending our tax dollars on Iraq...

BECAUSE THE WAR IS NOT PAID FOR!

It is one of the reasons WHY we are in a huge financial deficit in this country. Our children and our grandchildren will end up paying for this "war" of ours.

You disagree all you want. Facts are facts and even Republicans are startled by the amount of debt/deficit this country has. Rush Limbaugh, the most conservative and devout Republican in the on-air media, even criticized this administration's spending.

[PB2K]

I have worked as a freelance mac-supporter for the past 2 years, because there just arent any nice fitting vacancies in this country. It's a pretty hard living, and resembles more like survival than working. It's difficult to get customers who hire me for more than a few hours a week, so I have always kept my eyes open for a regular job meeting my standards and saving me from my extremely irregular workinghours.

After two years of being on my own, only 2 different employers who had a vacancy for a mac-supporter. Both companies were infested with departmentfights, recent forced layoffs or other depressing circumstances. Both employers suffered from rotten management, who vented their insecurities onto their subordinates, so to make a long story short : I am still a struggling selfemployed and poor. But I regard it a relief I dont have to put up with other ppl's hidden agendas and elbowworking anymore.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by PB2K:
I have worked as a freelance mac-supporter for the past 2 years, because there just arent any nice fitting vacancies in this country. It's a pretty hard living, and resembles more like survival than working. It's difficult to get customers who hire me for more than a few hours a week, so I have always kept my eyes open for a regular job meeting my standards and saving me from my extremely irregular workinghours.

After two years of being on my own, only 2 different employers who had a vacancy for a mac-supporter. Both companies were infested with departmentfights, recent forced layoffs or other depressing circumstances. Both employers suffered from rotten management, who vented their insecurities onto their subordinates, so to make a long story short : I am still a struggling selfemployed and poor. But I regard it a relief I dont have to put up with other ppl's hidden agendas and elbowworking anymore.

Same here, insert Graphic / Web where you put mac-supporter, and that is me. I had a VP of marketing give me work to do that was frought with spelling mistakes and all the graphs made no sense at all. The numbers didn't even jive with her conclusions, and I brought it to her attention. She had me fired. Thank you too beatch. The world is filled with petty stupid people who lie to themselves and to each other...it sucks.

I'm happier now being poor and working for people who appreciate my hard work, than before, I just wish it could be more consistent, as does my wife, and the mortgage company. Just beat out forclosure by a hair.

Phd. here I come. Maybe I'll write a book....fiction of course.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by iWrite:
"doesn't it apply to all poor people?"

What do you mean?

Oh, gosh, here is a registered Republican sounding like a Democrat -- yikes!

But, here goes...

Yes, SOME poor people are able to adapt and adjust to change. SOME. But, it's very difficult. It's a cycle: You cannot get a decent job because you cannot afford an education. You cannot live in a place where your children will receive a better education because you cannot afford to.

Actually this isnt true. Economists, Burkhauser, Holtz-Eakin, and Rhody (1996) did a study on this. They examined wage and salary incomes from 1970 to 1991 for workers between the ages of 25 and 55. They found that rates of mobility have been remarkably constant over time. They examined one-year and five-year mobility, finding average one-year mobility rates of 27 percent overall (19 percent for the lowest quintile and 17 percent for the highest) in the 1970s, and 29 percent overall (19 percent and 16 percent, respectively, for the lowest and highest) in the 1980s. Average five-year mobility rates were 44 percent overall (38 and 22 percent, respectively) in the 1970s, and 45 percent overall (36 and 23, respectively) in the 1980s. Obviously, people in the lowest quintile can move to higher quintiles fairly easily

Let's get even more basic. We have a LOT of immigrants working in our state picking citrus. They live in camps. They make less than minimum wage. They are exploited by the big ranches and farms -- Dole is a very good example. These people live in work camps and they buy their food at the "store" that is at the work camp. They charge these people double and triple the cost of the actual item. A loaf of bread for $4. A gallon of milk for $5. These are people that are making $5 to $6 an hour. Their children do not attend school -- if they're 12 or older they work with their parents.

You think this is acceptable? Think again. I think it's disgusting and wrong.

There are a LOT of articles on the exploitation of immigrants with no education and no means to effect any sort of upward mobility.

Saying that all Mexicans or other immigrants (such as Guatemalans, etc.,) can come and go not only compromises national security, but it exploits the less fortunate.

yes, it is a problem and most people would say that they want it stopped, until they realize that their fruit will cost much more. It is all well and good to say that something is horrible, but really it is just lip service. But I agree that it is a huge problem. However, one thing to keep in mind is that they are making more in the labor camp than they would in Mexico, so techically they quality of life is better. And hey at least they dont have to use buckets with wholes in the bottoms like the Joads had to.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Okay, I'm getting out of this conversation right now because it's starting to get to be

But, I never said that the president was spending our tax dollars on Iraq...

BECAUSE THE WAR IS NOT PAID FOR!

It is one of the reasons WHY we are in a huge financial deficit in this country. Our children and our grandchildren will end up paying for this "war" of ours.

You disagree all you want. Facts are facts and even Republicans are startled by the amount of debt/deficit this country has. Rush Limbaugh, the most conservative and devout Republican in the on-air media, even criticized this administration's spending.

i am not disagreeing with you on any issues of fiscal conservatism...

i am just disagreeing with your statement that every tax dollar the federal government collects goes towards paying interest on the national debt

[brapper]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
activate chute.

what colour is your parachute?

[wolfen]

To address some of the excellent recommendations made:

In the past few days I have begun to position my resume differently. I've done a lot more than just technician stuff, after all. I've done the analyst thing, the purchasing thing, the sales thing...so there's a few IT/business analyst jobs that I'm shooting for, now. No more focusing on Engineering. It's not panning out.

Thanks for all the replies.

wolfen

[iWrite]

You really should try to get in with a bank. You sound perfect for a banking IT position.

[spiky_dog]

get out while you can, wolfen. your company sounds awful, with the nepotism and whatnot.

i was in a similar position to you, and my solution was to apply like mad. over a few months i applied to 63 positions in the IT field, and got 4 interviews (and ultimately one job which i'm now neglecting by posting to macnn ) out of it.

as for the condition of the economy here is a sobering article:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...oLUZ8&refer=us

Rabzak and Whitmore are among the 1.6 million Americans who have dropped out of U.S. workforce in the past year. The percentage of those working or looking for jobs has skidded for four years and fell in February to 65.9 percent, a 16-year low, the Labor Department said Friday in Washington. Last month, 588,000 people left the labor force as the economy created just 21,000 jobs, a sixth of the median forecast in a Bloomberg News survey of 65 economists.

and

Job growth averaged just 60,000 a month since September, and the U.S. has shed 2.3 million positions since Bush became president in January 2001, according to Labor Department statistics. To keep up with population growth, the U.S. needs to create 150,000 jobs a month, according to Fed estimates.

so the economy is growing, sure, but jobs are not being created. good for the bottom line of companies, not good for workers. who matters, now?