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Dvorak keyboard layout (Page 2)
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Cubeoid
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Jul 11, 2005, 01:53 AM
 
     
CharlesS
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Jul 11, 2005, 01:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
I meant, "I've forgotten how to recognize jokes that don't have Michael Jackson in them." Because people tell a lot of Michael Jackson jokes nowadays, you see...

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yukon
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Jul 11, 2005, 03:21 AM
 
That other Dvorak guy is all over the net, really pollutes google searches for the keylayout info.

Some people say QWERTY is better as it allows your hands to "multitask" more, by allowing one to move into position while the other types. I think it's possible, but there's a large tradeoff in space moved by each finger.

The claims about typing speed, I'm not certain about, my typing speed amazes the average person, but I know that people proficient in QWERTY type about as fast as I do, sometimes it seems like they type faster. Accuracy, again probably overstated benefits, but I do better than QWERTY users often, depending on the keyboard I'm using. Reduction in RSI, theoretically and anecdotally true I know, it's easy to measure the distance travelled by each finger, and it's easy to talk to people with RSI who will extoll the virtues of the Dvorak layout.

One benefit is that you're more unique. One drawback is that some old and hardwired hardware doesn't allow for switching keymappings. Sometimes you have to learn little exploits in Windows to "unlock" the Regions control panel in badly administrated machines. It can sometimes confound users, mainly in Windows as it's method of switching between keymappings is braindead (per application, and I've seen applications remember the "other" keymapping after closing them). Windows 95 and previous didn't come with the layout, you had to add it, or run special programs for it in DOS: Back when I was in school, I had to do a final, and the supervising teacher wouldn't let me use the Dvorak layout, I had to hunt-peck an entire final essay. *NIX tends to need the keymapping compiled into the kernel to be used in that keymapping before X11 loads, SingleUserMode in OS X is QWERTY only (uojt [fu -memorize that).

The way to switch to Dvorak is to practice, it's unavoidable but not as bad as you think. Practice as much as you can until you can touch-type, then you don't need to practice anymore, speed is secondary and gradually increases. Accuracy seems to decrease with any layout, a slight problem I've been having, probably from having so many different models of keyboards to use. The problem with switching from QWERTY to Dvorak is that when you find yourself needing to "just type something up fast", you'll switch back and unlearn Dvorak. Don't do it. Type what you need in Dvorak, it'll take a lot longer, but by the time you're done you'll have mastered a lot more of dvorak. Learn Dvorak before QWERTY, that's the best idea.

If you type in QWERTY, but not fast, switch. If you type fast, then switch only if you're worried about carpal tunnel syndrome. Otherwise, enjoy your typing speed, avoid the frustration. I decided not to learn QWERTY when I discovered Dvorak, I had refused to learn QWERTY when it was forced on my as a kid anyway.
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AKcrab
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Jul 11, 2005, 08:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by yukon
If you type in QWERTY, but not fast, switch. If you type fast, then switch only if you're worried about carpal tunnel syndrome. Otherwise, enjoy your typing speed, avoid the frustration. I decided not to learn QWERTY when I discovered Dvorak, I had refused to learn QWERTY when it was forced on my as a kid anyway.
Excellent post!
(Although I might have started with "I'm a DVORAK typist". )

Yeah, I'm satisfied with my QWERTY skills, and "relearning" was simply too hard for me. If I have children, I'll probably start my kid off on DVORAK, just to see.
     
Sosa
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Jul 11, 2005, 10:05 AM
 
Wow, I'm sold! I'm going in! I'm telling my whole family about it (after I succeed of course). And yes, I won't let my kids use QWERTY at home!

Ok, first step though, do the powerbook keys come off like in a iBook? I'm afraid to break one!
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Jul 11, 2005, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS
Yd. Ekrpat t.fxrape nafrgy co j.pyacbnf ab cby.p.oycbi ce.av C-m bry ogp. cu C-e x. axn. yr i.y go.e yr cyw ydrgidw ao C am uacpnf ajjgoyrm.e yr ",.pyfv C-m bry ogp.
C-e dak. yd. layc.bj. yr ir ydprgid ann yd. p.ypacbcbiv
Says:
The Dvorak keyboard layout is certainly an interesting idea. I'm not sure if I'd be able to get used to it, though, as I am fairly accustomed to qwerty. I'm not sure I'd have to patience to go through all the retraining.

Originally Posted by Oisín
You do realise that nobody is bothering to look up what it actually says there, don't you? (Or are you perhaps counting on it?)
I'm nobody. I like those kind of puzzles.
     
Chuckit
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Jul 11, 2005, 02:00 PM
 
How'd you solve it?
Chuck
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karent
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Jul 11, 2005, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
How'd you solve it?
'Twas easy actually.

Printed out a copy of the dvorak keyboard and wrote in the corresponding letters of the qwerty layout. Then, printed out the coded message in a really large typeface so I could write the decoded letters above. Found each letter in the code on the layout and wrote down the qwerty letter it went with.

easy. even for a blonde like me.
     
turtle777
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Jul 11, 2005, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon
tooki, why do you have internet explorer in your dock? good that its not running, but why look at it if you don't have to?
Yeah, and Garageband ! On a Pismo ?

-t
     
tooki  (op)
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Jul 11, 2005, 04:01 PM
 
HAHA yeah. The iLife 05 installer put it there and i didn't even notice it till you pointed it out!!

tooki
     
turtle777
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Jul 11, 2005, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
HAHA yeah. The iLife 05 installer put it there and i didn't even notice it till you pointed it out!!

tooki
You gonna blame IE on the iLife 05 installer as well ?

-t
     
Super Mario
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Jul 11, 2005, 05:15 PM
 
IE rules! It really does
     
turtle777
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Jul 11, 2005, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario
IE rules! It really does
On Macs using OS X ?

-t
     
Oisín
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Jul 11, 2005, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
On Macs using OS X ?
Or on a PC using Windows XP (or ME, or 2000, or 98, or 95, or 3.11... is there even an IE in 3.11 an below?)?
     
PlacidTubs
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Jul 11, 2005, 06:05 PM
 
I'm just learning as of tonight. Wish me luck!! This is my first post ever using dvorakv.
     
turtle777
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Jul 11, 2005, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín
Or on a PC using Windows XP (or ME, or 2000, or 98, or 95, or 3.11... is there even an IE in 3.11 an below?)?
We are talking about IE on tooki's Pismo running OS X

-t
     
CharlesS
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Jul 11, 2005, 06:25 PM
 
One unfortunate thing about Apple's implementation of Dvorak is that there's no equivalent of the US Extended layout for Dvorak. Ironically, this means that there's no way to type Dvořák in Dvorak.

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Oisín
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Jul 11, 2005, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
We are talking about IE on tooki's Pismo running OS X
Yeah, I was just pointing out that using IE is no better on Windows than on Mac.
     
turtle777
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Jul 12, 2005, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín
Yeah, I was just pointing out that using IE is no better on Windows than on Mac.


What's new about that ?

-t
     
ghporter
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Jul 12, 2005, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín
Yeah, I was just pointing out that using IE is no better on Windows than on Mac.
Actually, it's WORSE on Windows. MS uses the rendering engine in IE to do just about ALL the screen display in anything since Win98, including the Explorer and much of the management tools in XP. So if IE gets hosed (yes my friends, IE CAN get hosed in Windows, amazing though that may seem!) the whole system may be unusable. BAD coding!

Further, there are limitations to how it handles nonstandard alphabets (though that's gotten better) and of course quirks in how it renders HTML (can you say "non-standard conforming?" Good!).

On my Windows machine I run Firefox for these and other reasons. And I still get twitches thinking about retraining my fingers for a Dvorak layout!

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tooki  (op)
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Jul 12, 2005, 12:12 PM
 
I keep Eleventy Billion™ browsers around for testing sites where I need to be logged in simultaneously, once as an admin, once as a nomal user. (All the Mozillas share their cookies, so i need something else, and IE was already there, so I kept it.) Safari is my everyday browser.

tooki

P.S. My typing speed is improving, but still frustratingly slow...
     
funkboy
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Jul 15, 2005, 04:07 PM
 
How is it now? I'm at about 20 wpm after 5 days of it. I really do like the layout better, there's honestly less hand movement.
     
yukon
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Jul 15, 2005, 05:22 PM
 
There is less finger movement, it's empirically provable. There are many ways to check online, like a java program you can find with google that you can paste content into and see how more efficient dvorak would be (by having vowels and common letters on the home row). There was another one, someone who ran their entire email archive through a program to find the most efficient layout, it wasn't far off from dvorak, only biased towards programming punctuation IIRC.

20 WPM isn't bad, I believe I was at 25wpm on QWERTY at one point, I never could touch-type though, I just eventually could find the keys quickly. Decided I wanted to type fast, and instead of learning QWERTY I learned to touch type dvorak. Until you get the touch-typing, it's extremely frustrating, but once it's there then learning speed and accuracy comes without effort. There's a program, Master Key I think, has Dvorak specific lessons for OS X, very nice.

Typing in a different keymapping is slightly better encryption than ROT13.

C jab oycnn yfl. lp.yyf uaoy ,cyd ',.pyfv C oycnn p.m.mx.p ,d.p. yr nrrt urp yd. t.fow orm. ru yd.m ap. ,rpb ruu .k.bv Dape yr i.y go.e yr yd. lrocycrb ru yd. l.pcre abe jrmma ydrgidv Orppf urp abf mco[ol.nncbiow C jab-y o.. ydco p.aeaxn.v
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Jul 15, 2005, 05:27 PM
 
There used to be a company which made cool replacement keys for the Pismo, they had sci-fi keys, blank keys, and you could choose your own color layout.

It was called Keyborg or something like that.

I recently was going to get it, but it seems to be out of business, when I tried to do find info on it.

     
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Jul 15, 2005, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by yukon
C jab oycnn yfl. lp.yyf uaoy ,cyd ',.pyfv C oycnn p.m.mx.p ,d.p. yr nrrt urp yd. t.fow orm. ru yd.m ap. ,rpb ruu .k.bv Dape yr i.y go.e yr yd. lrocycrb ru yd. l.pcre abe jrmma ydrgidv Orppf urp abf mco[ol.nncbiow C jab-y o.. ydco p.aeaxn.v
I can still type pretty fast with qwerty. I still remember to where to look for the keys, some of them are worn off even. Hard to get used to the position of the period and comma though. Sorry for any mis[spellings, I can't see this readable.

Ironic that the one misspelling I found was in the word 'misspelling.'

Well, and 'readable' should probably be 'readably' or something, but that's more grammar than spelling.

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yukon
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Jul 15, 2005, 07:26 PM
 
On my keyboard, "Mis-spelling", I remembered that either "mispelling" or "misspelling" was incorrect, couldn't look at it so I just used a dash. I think there were two Dvorak standards, one had the bracket keys moved, one was "American Dvorak" I think. The "readable" was an edit, I was thinking "in a readable format", couldn't remember the phrasing (and retyping that is a pain ;-). Well done.

Not sure if I can add anything else. Watching QWERTY typists is interesting, every single key seems to be somewhere the fingers aren't, Dvorak you're usually just pressing down a lot at a time with one or two upper keys per word.. I was told yesterday by a QWERTY typist that the "multitasking" I was told of is actually really bad for accuracy, since the timing between the hands is difficult to do quickly, so it results in errors like "nihgt" for "night" (looking at my keyboard, that is true, G and H, left and right index fingers). Also, confounding people when they see your password screen and start typing in possibilities, they will less likely get through, the characters are hidden. One tutorial on Dvorak starts with the "Bevis and Butthead Lesson", learning to type "huh huh hu uh huh huh...". Finally, the word "Qwerty" is annoying to type on Dvorak, actually both are annoying to type, neither being an English sort of word...at least the Sholes layout can type one of those easily (managed to avoid it). There, now the post has more info ;-)
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CharlesS
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Jul 15, 2005, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by yukon
On my keyboard, "Mis-spelling", I remembered that either "mispelling" or "misspelling" was incorrect, couldn't look at it so I just used a dash. I think there were two Dvorak standards, one had the bracket keys moved, one was "American Dvorak" I think.
Oops. I was using the picture of the Dvorak keyboard at the top of the link that Tooki posted, but it looks like I made a mistake. The brackets were moved, but the character there would have been a slash ('/') instead of a dash ('-'). This seems to be the layout that Apple uses also, so what you really typed was mis/spelling. Therefore, although I was wrong, you still were too.

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yukon
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Jul 16, 2005, 12:35 AM
 
Unless I'm misunderstanding, I believe you are mistaken. When I hit the QWERTY dash key, I get the character "[", a QWERTY slash gets "z", while the slash key on a dvorak keyboard would get a "[" in qwerty. I believe the Dvorak-QWERTY layout Apple uses may be ANSI, while the standard Dvorak one has the keys moved up.

http://www.microsoft.com/enable/imag...s/kbqwerty.gif
http://lundqvist.dyndns.org/sv_dvorak/sv_dvorak.gif

So that this isn't off topic, this has the Java applet I mentioned earlier.
http://www.acm.vt.edu/~jmaxwell/dvorak/

There's also something called the "dvortyboard", which AFAIK has a switch to change the signal the keyboard sends to the computer from QWERTY to Dvorak, so the computer doesn't have to be able to change layouts (DOS, Single User Mode, un-recompiled Linux, proprietary hardware, etc).

I'm afraid I can't find the page where a programmer analyzed his email archive to create the most efficient layout for him, and compared it to QWERTY/Dvorak.
( Last edited by yukon; Jul 16, 2005 at 12:44 AM. )
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CharlesS
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Jul 16, 2005, 01:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by yukon
Unless I'm misunderstanding, I believe you are mistaken. When I hit the QWERTY dash key, I get the character "[", a QWERTY slash gets "z", while the slash key on a dvorak keyboard would get a "[" in qwerty. I believe the Dvorak-QWERTY layout Apple uses may be ANSI, while the standard Dvorak one has the keys moved up.
Argh, I tried it again, and you're right. Hitting the QWERTY [ gets the Dvorak /, not the other way around. My bad. Jeez, I think I should have quit while I was ahead with this thread...

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rozwado1
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Jul 16, 2005, 11:41 AM
 
9 wpm on my first try, w00t!
     
tooki  (op)
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Jul 21, 2005, 09:53 PM
 
Update: I'm still not back to my QWERTY speeds, but rapidly improving now. It still feels awkward though.

tooki
     
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Jul 21, 2005, 10:23 PM
 
And an update for myself - my speed is much better, too. I'm confused when going back to qwerty, and right now I'm typing fast but making lots of mistakes I have to correct. Got to slow down.

I don't honestly know if this was a good idea, but my wrists feel better, so it must be.
     
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Jul 21, 2005, 11:32 PM
 
Add me to the "it seems interesting to try, but I can't (re: won't) unlearn the way I've been typing for 20+ years." As someone who writes (types) a lot, for work and for fun, I'm up to 70+ WPM on a good day. Starting over is not really an option.

The other deal-breaker is that many other now-common devices aren't Dvorak, so you'd be trapped between worlds. You can't remap your BlackBerry. You can't remap the common keyboard you may use on a dedicated terminal at work, etc...
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Jul 22, 2005, 02:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Albert Pujols


edit: now I know.

Ewwwwwwwwww. I hate his tech articles.
     
budster101
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Jul 22, 2005, 03:30 AM
 
I type 72wpm tested with 3 errors. (That includes backspacing and correcting)
     
Tenacious Dyl
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Jul 22, 2005, 02:19 PM
 
Now on Dvorak as well! (on both my G5 and laptop) Hard to get used to.... but I can do this!
yep.
     
historylme
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Jul 22, 2005, 07:02 PM
 
I'm curious too, good luck to all you guys.
     
MacMan4000
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Jul 22, 2005, 10:37 PM
 
How can I test my words per minute? is there a program to do that? (besides my copy of "Mario teaches typing" for OS9)
     
budster101
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Jul 22, 2005, 10:45 PM
 
When I was applying for a job, they tested me on a computer with software just for this. It was cool... I told the tester, I think I can go faster... can I try again?

72 wpm... I think I'm faster now.
     
budster101
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Jul 22, 2005, 10:54 PM
 
http://www.calculatorcat.com/typing_test/

Here you guys go.... try this on for size.

(First try, I must be rusty.)

     
CharlesS
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Jul 22, 2005, 11:10 PM
 


Not first try, though. The first try, I think it was about 114 or so, but I didn't read the part that said to hit the Tab key when done, so the counter dropped dramatically while I went for my mouse to click the "Stop" button.

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MacMan4000
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Jul 22, 2005, 11:11 PM
 
If I am a hunt/peck typer with 38 wpm do you think i should try dvorak?

I also have to look at the keyboard... i think i would have scored higher on the test if i didn't have to keep looking back up at the test sentence on the screen.

EDIT: after memorizing the sentance (so i dont have to look at the screen) i got 57 wmp
     
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Jul 22, 2005, 11:17 PM
 


     
CharlesS
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Jul 23, 2005, 03:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacMan4000
If I am a hunt/peck typer with 38 wpm do you think i should try dvorak?
If you don't already know how to touch-type, you don't have much to lose, I guess...

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budster101
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Jul 23, 2005, 11:04 AM
 
I used the (stop) button with mouse. :/
     
yukon
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Jul 28, 2005, 04:19 PM
 
Master Key is a good program, it has a demo, and Dvorak specific lessons for beginners.

Just wanted to say, tried out Ubuntu Linux and it has an interesting way to let you select the keymapping. It offers you a few letters you can type, like the letter "y". After pressing that one key, it selects Dvorak. Obviously the keys are unique to one or a couple keyboards, if there's more than one it'll ask for another I assume. I'm not sure if this option is part of xf86config, part of Ubuntu, or available on other linux distros, but I found it cool.
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Oisín
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Jul 28, 2005, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by yukon
Just wanted to say, tried out Ubuntu Linux and it has an interesting way to let you select the keymapping. It offers you a few letters you can type, like the letter "y". After pressing that one key, it selects Dvorak.
So if you want to type the word 'syzygy', it would be [Qwerty] S [Dvorak] Z [Qwerty] G [Dvorak]?

     
historylme
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Jul 28, 2005, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS


Not first try, though. The first try, I think it was about 114 or so, but I didn't read the part that said to hit the Tab key when done, so the counter dropped dramatically while I went for my mouse to click the "Stop" button.
     
Sosa
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Aug 12, 2005, 11:39 AM
 
First 30 min with dvorak!

Wow, my fingers don't know what to do. Begining to learn positions of letters. Everything moving slowly, making mistakes. Dit it at work, yeah! Index keys didn't fit, painted over them.

typing 7 wpm, ouch!
( Last edited by Sosa; Aug 12, 2005 at 11:45 AM. )
2011 iMac 2.7 i5, 16gb RAM, 1TB HD
Previous Macs: Apple IIc+, iMac 350 G3, iBook 700 G3, G4 Powerbooks 12" 1ghz & 15" 1.67ghz
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