[analogue SPRINKLES]

I think they should get rid of it altogether. A tiny 16x16 icon tucked away in the corner should hardly be expected to be found or used often for anything important.

[analogika]

It's the global menu item, the highest up in the strict hierarchy Apple has implemented in the first four menus.

After twenty-five years, they finally implement a menu hierarchy, and now you think they should get rid of the top level?

Where to? A "Special" menu in the file manager perhaps?

[PhotoMacUser]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

I understand what you're saying (it's why I disable magnification on the dock a few times a year), but it still takes a moment. Plus, there's that momentary hesitation while you look for whatever icon you need.

I would prefer a keystroke to show or hide the dock and also something like the Windows Start Menu which was like the OLD OS 9 Apple Menu which was much more useful. Having access to control panels, printing, applications, documents, etc, all from one menu- very useful indeed. Perhaps most useful was that it didn't take up the entire bottom of the screen like the dock! I like the dock but training PC users about the dock isn't easy. There should be a way to lock individual icons into the dock. There is a hack to lock them all, but that doesn't allow you to add items without unlocking. PC users and novices tend to drag off the icon for program like Safari and POOF! It's gone! They don't know where to find these things and how to keep them in the dock either. I would hope that Apple would provide a truly useful printed handbook on how to get started and how to troubleshoot. Web based help doesn't work when your computer won't start!

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by analogika 

It's the global menu item, the highest up in the strict hierarchy Apple has implemented in the first four menus.

After twenty-five years, they finally implement a menu hierarchy, and now you think they should get rid of the top level?

Where to? A "Special" menu in the file manager perhaps?

I think he meant replace it with something that's more obvious as to what it does, such as a menu named "System" or "Mac OS X" or something other than a 16x16 icon.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I think he meant replace it with something that's more obvious as to what it does, such as a menu named "System" or "Mac OS X" or something other than a 16x16 icon.

Exactly. Why would anyone who is thinking how to turn off the computer or log out would they think to click on the tiny logo in the corner.

[ApeInTheShell]

Most people don't use tabs in Firefox even though they are available. Most people think "Start" is the only way to do anything. Even if they are using a Mac. Most people are afraid of the Mac and are afraid they'll mess up. Most of these people are college students.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Exactly. Why would anyone who is thinking how to turn off the computer or log out would they think to click on the tiny logo in the corner.

Basically, the only thing people need to realize is that the Apple is a menu as well - not too much of a stretch given that it's actually in the menu bar.

Of course, the most logical place to turn off the machine when you're done is - the power switch.

Which, incidentally will immediately sleep a desktop machine and ask a laptop user whether he wants to shut down.

Apple already nailed that one.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Basically, the only thing people need to realize is that the Apple is a menu as well - not too much of a stretch given that it's actually in the menu bar.

...which, from my experience, is something that quite a few new users didn't initially realise during the OS7.x to OS9 years, and quite often had to be told.

With respect to Windows notifying users that an app has been installed (which is useful, though could be implemented in a less obtrusive fashion), you have to realise that this is essential in that OS as actually trying to determine what is and is not the application and where it is located in the file hierarchy is ridiculously overcomplicated (e.g. the Office executables are named something completely different to the title they are given in the Start menu). You are forced to use the Start menu, or have apps automatically add aliases to your desktop/taskbar for you, just so that you can actually use them.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Of course, the most logical place to turn off the machine when you're done is - the power switch.

Which, incidentally will immediately sleep a desktop machine and ask a laptop user whether he wants to shut down.

Apple already nailed that one.

So in other words the Apple menu is even more pointless.

[jtrwallace]

I love most things how they are. I think when people don't like accidentally hitting the hidden dock on the right side of the screen when they meant to just hit the scroll bar should probably make their Safari window thinner. Safari starts out being thin... so that you have room to do other things. That's what I love about wide screens... you have room to multi-task with many windows. I usually have safari open to the width of the apple start page and then my iChat window uses the smallest settings and goes in the bottom right corner with my dock hidden and as small as possible with the largest magnification.
For applications, I agree there should be an easier way to access them. Everytime I convert someone I put the applications folder in the dock and tell them to hold and click and it will be just like the Start menu. They always understand after that. I don't think, however, that a start-up video would be a good idea... but maybe that's just because I don't ever watch things like that. Who knows.
On the other hand, if QuickSilver was built into Mac OSX and everyone was forced to learn it they would all be so happy they could pee themselves. I know I was when I first discovered it and it has become my main calculator, dictionary, application launcher, bookmarker loader, email sender, and whatever else I could think of.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So in other words the Apple menu is even more pointless.

Have you ever *looked* in the Apple menu?

There just a few other things in there beyond "Sleep" and "Shut Down".

Or are you just being contrarian again for the hell of it?

[Madrag]

I never thought of the apple menu, it's just there, but then again, I've been using Macs for the last 16 years.

After reading this thread, I've been looking at the apple menu in a diferent way, thinking of those people that don't know it might be a menu item...

I think that anyone using a mac, either a switcher or just someone curious, will end up clicking there, that's one thing that everyone does, click everywhere until they get something, but it may not be as obvious as it seems.

[Madrag]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I think they should get rid of it altogether. A tiny 16x16 icon tucked away in the corner should hardly be expected to be found or used often for anything important.

I don't know if you came from the pre-OS X days, but in those days, the apple menu had a major significance, because all the goodies were there...

Because I couldn't let go (sad, hein?), I use fruitmenu to do what the apple menu did before, which is store my apps and documents into a menu, accessed by the apple menu. So I use it A LOT!

It may need a refresh, but getting rid of it?, I don't think so!

[P]

What you are used to is not necessarily the best way.

That's really all there is to it. The world is full of people who think that the Windows Explorer is a great way to manage files. In general, they're less efficient than just about anyone else, but they're used to it, so they're more efficient than they would be using any other method. If you got used to the Apple menu from System 7 to OS 9, you think that it's a great feature and you use Fruitmenu to replicate it. If you tried to relearn, you might be more efficient with the Dock than with Fruitmenu, but you're not likely to relearn, are you?

For this reason, the system needs to have two features:

* A logical way to find everything, for people who never used it before
* A way to transition users who come from other metaphors

Apple is quite good at the first, not so good at the second. MS is terrible at the first, but quite good at the second - witness the Run... feature to support command line users, the Start-menu which is really a reimplementation of program groups from Win 3.1, the spatial file interface for Mac users and the Explorer for NC/Win 3.1 users, etc. This willingness to support older ways of working is one reason Windows feels so half-baked and lacking in structure.

Apple could use an analog to the start menu - not because it's a very good feature, but to help Windows users. Combining it with the Apple menu would just break the logical part - the Apple menu is once again a system menu, not a launcher, and we shouldn't go back to it's schizoid past. Since the Dock is the launcher, add it as a sub-feature of the Dock. Optionally let people lock the Dock to the lower left corner. Recent Apps could go under the same menu. The Desktop is a good place to place documents and shortcuts to them, so seed it with shortcuts to the Home directory and a Recent Docs Smart folder.

In OS 8.5, there was a help option to make a simulated taskbar to mimic Windows - that's a really good idea, and I think a similar feature for the Start button in OS X would be a great way to transition users. The script would only have to pin the Dock to the lower left corner and add a shortcut to the Applications menu in that corner and it would be done.

There is always compromise between the old way and the good way - the important part is not to destroy the good way to accommodate the old way. That way leads to Windows.