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Poor Palestinians
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Athens
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Nov 15, 2012, 08:04 PM
 
Is it really self defense or a distraction and bolstering for the up coming election. Either way a lot of Palestinians unproportionally are about to die painful violent brutal deaths. The old, the young, infants and woman. Wonder what Obama will do about it. Doubt anything really.
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 16, 2012, 12:33 AM
 
Its not really Obama's problem is it?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Nov 16, 2012, 03:40 AM
 
That's right! The poor, innocent Palestinians.....who will be hurt because radical, aggressive Palestinians will not stop firing rockets into their neighbouring country, poking and poking at the dragon until it finally stirs awake.

I have sympathy. Everyone should have sympathy. But Israel can absolutely take no other action but an aggressive one.

If any other first-world sovereign country on earth received rocket fire from an adjacent country, it would be hell to pay. Israel endures it on a daily basis. Until that ends, and Palestinian/Hamas tactics change from military to political, they should expect no other response to their actions.
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Nov 16, 2012, 03:48 AM
 
I think someone in the middle east might just get nuked since the Israeli's realize they are in it alone as long as Obama the coward (leading from behind...or with his behind) is in charge.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 16, 2012, 04:00 AM
 
I said 7 years ago that Israel needed to just go in and clear out the Gaza Strip. There's no chance for peace with those particular Palestinians, the only option is to give them 2 days notice and then go in with force and physically remove them, by whatever means is necessary. When it comes down to your children or theirs, there is no other option.
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Nov 16, 2012, 04:16 AM
 
I'd be much harder on Israel if Egypt didn't have a "keep them the **** away from us" policy.
     
Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 06:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its not really Obama's problem is it?
It will be, generally world wide opinion of the US drops because of the protection the US offers Israel. But if the reports are true in 10 years the US can produce enough oil itself it won't need the middle east, then that might change on both counts. Israel might find itself very alone.
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Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 06:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
That's right! The poor, innocent Palestinians.....who will be hurt because radical, aggressive Palestinians will not stop firing rockets into their neighbouring country, poking and poking at the dragon until it finally stirs awake.
I have sympathy. Everyone should have sympathy. But Israel can absolutely take no other action but an aggressive one.
If any other first-world sovereign country on earth received rocket fire from an adjacent country, it would be hell to pay. Israel endures it on a daily basis. Until that ends, and Palestinian/Hamas tactics change from military to political, they should expect no other response to their actions.
Violence does not create peace. Violence only creates more violence. Cause and effect.

Car gets bombed, rockets get fired in retaliation.



Would you beat the shit out of a dog that bites, i mean to a inch of its life every time it bites you with a bat hoping to train it not to bite?
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Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I said 7 years ago that Israel needed to just go in and clear out the Gaza Strip. There's no chance for peace with those particular Palestinians, the only option is to give them 2 days notice and then go in with force and physically remove them, by whatever means is necessary. When it comes down to your children or theirs, there is no other option.
Or they can apply the same methods they used on the West Bank on Gaza. Life is much better in the West Bank. People there have some normality with life. A economy that improves, standard of living that is improving. Not nearly as many problems occur on the West Bank side.

Gaza on the other hand is the opposite. I wonder if this could be fuelling the problems perhaps? Desperate people with absolutely nothing to lose? Gaza is no better then the Warsaw ghettos during world war II. And sadly the oppressors this time around are getting away with it.
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Nov 16, 2012, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
That's right! The poor, innocent Palestinians.....who will be hurt because radical, aggressive Palestinians will not stop firing rockets into their neighbouring country, poking and poking at the dragon until it finally stirs awake.
I have sympathy. Everyone should have sympathy. But Israel can absolutely take no other action but an aggressive one.
If any other first-world sovereign country on earth received rocket fire from an adjacent country, it would be hell to pay. Israel endures it on a daily basis. Until that ends, and Palestinian/Hamas tactics change from military to political, they should expect no other response to their actions.
Violence does not create peace. Violence only creates more violence. Cause and effect.

Car gets bombed, rockets get fired in retaliation.



Would you beat the shit out of a dog that bites, i mean to a inch of its life every time it bites you with a bat hoping to train it not to bite?
Sooooo.....errrrrrrr......you're putting the blame on Israel for responding with violence after they are violently attacked? You're forcing them into a "turn the other cheek" solution and when they refuse to do so, you blame them? That's ****ed up, Athens.

To turn your response around: wouldn't the Palestinians then be able to solve the entire problem by simply stopping their violence? Since after all, it's their continued and repeated attacks that Israel uses in order to justify their violent responses....

Or do you think that if the Arab peoples that surround Israel one day committed to simply making peace with Israel and ceasing to attack it in any way.....that Israel would keep continuing its aggression? Of course it wouldn't - that's an easy answer.
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Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 08:29 AM
 
Israel is the man with the stick poking at the dog. Sooner or later the dog will bite back. Its always been that simple.

Israel is also falling into a trap. Egypt no longer has a dictator for Israel to pay off. Its now a government by the people for the people. The people will want blood. No government of the people has ever lasted ignoring its people. Egypt is going to have no choice but to respond. The entire region is going to collapse into war.
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Nov 16, 2012, 09:48 AM
 
Heh, if Cuba started lobbing missiles into Florida, I know exactly what the USA would do. We'd have troops in downtown Havana in 72 hours.
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Nov 16, 2012, 10:48 AM
 
Naturally this latest escalation is more complicated than it's typically represented in the media. Israel and Hamas have been largely abiding by an unofficial truce in Gaza for several years now. While it is true that there have been rockets launched into Israel sporadically ... these have been largely ineffective and more importantly were NOT perpetrated by Hamas. There are other militant factions in Gaza that Hamas has been unable to keep a lid on 100%. Israel holds Hamas responsible since it is the ruling faction in Gaza. And for whatever reason Israel decided to DRAMATICALLY ESCALATE the violence by assassinating the top Hamas military commander. Not surprisingly, Hamas was not going to take such a strike lying down. And soon thereafter Hamas ITSELF fired off 300 rockets into Israel over a 24 hour period in retaliation .... with Jerusalem and Tel Aviv coming under attack for the first time. And now we see Israel calling up reservists and massing troops on the border with Gaza.

So why would Israel all of a sudden decide to kill the top Hamas military commander over sporadic rocket attacks by non-Hamas militants? My take? This isn't about HAMAS. It's about IRAN. We all know that Israel is itching for a military conflict with Iran. The problem is Israel has two Iranian proxies to deal with if it decides to go there. Hezbollah to the north in Lebanon. And Hamas to the south in Gaza. So Israel makes a move against Hamas that it knows will invite major retaliation ... thereby creating a pretext for a massive assault in Gaza. Hamas ends up seriously weakened, thereby reducing their military effectiveness for when the real war with Iran begins. Just my 2 cents ...

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Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Heh, if Cuba started lobbing missiles into Florida, I know exactly what the USA would do. We'd have troops in downtown Havana in 72 hours.
I thought the military was quicker then FEMA
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Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Naturally this latest escalation is more complicated than it's typically represented in the media. Israel and Hamas have been largely abiding by an unofficial truce in Gaza for several years now. While it is true that there have been rockets launched into Israel sporadically ... these have been largely ineffective and more importantly were NOT perpetrated by Hamas. There are other militant factions in Gaza that Hamas has been unable to keep a lid on 100%. Israel holds Hamas responsible since it is the ruling faction in Gaza. And for whatever reason Israel decided to DRAMATICALLY ESCALATE the violence by assassinating the top Hamas military commander. Not surprisingly, Hamas was not going to take such a strike lying down. And soon thereafter Hamas ITSELF fired off 300 rockets into Israel over a 24 hour period in retaliation .... with Jerusalem and Tel Aviv coming under attack for the first time. And now we see Israel calling up reservists and massing troops on the border with Gaza.
So why would Israel all of a sudden decide to kill the top Hamas military commander over sporadic rocket attacks by non-Hamas militants? My take? This isn't about HAMAS. It's about IRAN. We all know that Israel is itching for a military conflict with Iran. The problem is Israel has two Iranian proxies to deal with if it decides to go there. Hezbollah to the north in Lebanon. And Hamas to the south in Gaza. So Israel makes a move against Hamas that it knows will invite major retaliation ... thereby creating a pretext for a massive assault in Gaza. Hamas ends up seriously weakened, thereby reducing their military effectiveness for when the real war with Iran begins. Just my 2 cents ...
OAW
Your theory sounds good. I like to add the possibility that they drag Egypt into a war which will force the US to get involved. I wonder if Turkey would take the opportunity to hit Syria. Entire region plunges into War and Iran is dragged in. US already committed in a arm conflict does to Iran what it did to Iraq. Israel bloodied up good but quickly rebuilds from US assistance. Bankers get rich with the arm sales.
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Shaddim
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Nov 16, 2012, 11:15 AM
 
Takes a while to move tanks and personnel from GTMO to Havana.
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Athens  (op)
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Nov 16, 2012, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Takes a while to move tanks and personnel from GTMO to Havana.
Sure it wouldn't take 3 months of investigations by the FBI first before the attack even made it to the desk of the president


I was just street viewing Tel Aviv and Looking at static views of Gaza City. The entire region looks third world. Including Israel. With the exception of downtown anyways. But really get out of the nice spots the rest of the cities in Israel look no different and no better then those in the West Bank and Gaza. The entire region is really ugly.
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Nov 17, 2012, 04:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Sure it wouldn't take 3 months of investigations by the FBI first before the attack even made it to the desk of the president
Not again, no. There's the issue of, "where did those terrorists come from?"

With missile attacks from Cuba against Florida, I think there would be fewer doubts (and a lot of angry old people, who can bitch like few others). Mobilization would be swift.
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Nov 17, 2012, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
That's right! The poor, innocent Palestinians.....who will be hurt because radical, aggressive Palestinians will not stop firing rockets into their neighbouring country, poking and poking at the dragon until it finally stirs awake.
I have sympathy. Everyone should have sympathy. But Israel can absolutely take no other action but an aggressive one.
If any other first-world sovereign country on earth received rocket fire from an adjacent country, it would be hell to pay. Israel endures it on a daily basis. Until that ends, and Palestinian/Hamas tactics change from military to political, they should expect no other response to their actions.
Seconded.

And I would like to call into question the so called "silent majority", the "moderate muslims", and other such fantasies......
1. Hammas was "voted" into power.
2. Egypt & Turkey, once considered mediators (at least in the political echelons), now have thousands of protesters calling for Israel's destruction. Where were their protests when rockets were being fired into Israel?

I do not envy Israel's position one bit. They have no willing political partner to negotiate with, nor do they have an adversary which seeks peaceful coexistence.
     
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Nov 17, 2012, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Car gets bombed, rockets get fired in retaliation.
So the rockets only started after a surgical strike on military personnel ? So i guess those 1000 odd rockets in the last 12 months were fireworks?
     
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Nov 17, 2012, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Or they can apply the same methods they used on the West Bank on Gaza. Life is much better in the West Bank. People there have some normality with life. A economy that improves, standard of living that is improving. Not nearly as many problems occur on the West Bank side.
Gaza on the other hand is the opposite. I wonder if this could be fuelling the problems perhaps? Desperate people with absolutely nothing to lose? Gaza is no better then the Warsaw ghettos during world war II. And sadly the oppressors this time around are getting away with it.

Ahhhhh....... I see now. So it should be at Israel's direct expense, because the "nature" of Palestinians not under the constant supervision and control of Israel is to regress to a (seemingly unavoidable) state of violence.

So basically the Palestinians say give us what me want, or we will not bother to progress and improve and we will not make peace. And you support that side of the equation?

If the Palestinians wanted a state they would have had one by now, if they wanted peace, they would have made it. But it seems, what they really want(the average citizen, not the government PR)is the destruction of the entire state of Israel. They will not have that.

Gaza was an experiment, they were given everything they asked for and nothing was asked for in return, and they could have started a peaceful state and negotiated from there, instead they voted in an ideology to continue conflict. (Mind you, personally, i wouldn't put much weight in any assurances of peace from the Arab world).
     
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Nov 18, 2012, 09:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Not again, no. There's the issue of, "where did those terrorists come from?"
With missile attacks from Cuba against Florida, I think there would be fewer doubts (and a lot of angry old people, who can bitch like few others). Mobilization would be swift.
True but then you have to ask yourself what caused the missiles in the first place. Was it American troops occupying Cuba mistreating people. Was it outside influence like Mexico running a proxy war through Cuba? Rockets would not just be fired at the US for no reason at all.
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Nov 18, 2012, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Ahhhhh....... I see now. So it should be at Israel's direct expense, because the "nature" of Palestinians not under the constant supervision and control of Israel is to regress to a (seemingly unavoidable) state of violence.
So basically the Palestinians say give us what me want, or we will not bother to progress and improve and we will not make peace. And you support that side of the equation?
If the Palestinians wanted a state they would have had one by now, if they wanted peace, they would have made it. But it seems, what they really want(the average citizen, not the government PR)is the destruction of the entire state of Israel. They will not have that.
Gaza was an experiment, they were given everything they asked for and nothing was asked for in return, and they could have started a peaceful state and negotiated from there, instead they voted in an ideology to continue conflict. (Mind you, personally, i wouldn't put much weight in any assurances of peace from the Arab world).
We agree about the Arab world part. The Arab world does not want to see a Palestinian state either. Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the Arabs all have interests in the lands held by Israel and the Palestinians that conflict with the existence of Israel and a Palestinian state. Israel and the Palestinians have been pawns for a very long time over external influences.

But your take on Gaza is so incorrect. Gaza was never free. If it was any one in the world could have traded with Gaza. Ships going to Gaza to deliver basic supplies get boarded on approach. Its still a blockaded land. Its a prison, a Ghetto. They never had a chance to do anything with it being cut off. This is why you see such a difference between the West Bank and Gaza. There is limited freedom in the West Bank.

The quote you made, if Palestinians wanted a state they would have it by now, if they wanted peace they would have made it. Why does it fall on the Palestinians shoulders. Takes 2 for war and it takes 2 for peace. You can't deny Israelis role in all this. Israelis and Palestinians are very much the same people with different faiths. They both march and chant for the death of the others. They both use violence. They both are terrorists to each other. Israel just has a better PR and Brain washing campaign because of the support the US gives the state.

Want to see the real Israel?

American Jew beat up by police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI&feature=related

And the other part of his story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8INDkZDnM&feature=related

The best and in my opinion the most unbiased evaluation of the entire conflict of the area

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb6IiSUxpgw&feature=related

Personally I think the Palestinians best hope for a State of there own is with the protection of Israel because every nation around the area don't want a Palestinian nation either. Jews and Palestinians have been the out casts of the world, they just fail to see there best survival is as a united people. To bad they are both locked into a blood feud equally.
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Nov 18, 2012, 10:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Takes a while to move tanks and personnel from GTMO to Havana.
I was just street viewing Tel Aviv and Looking at static views of Gaza City. The entire region looks third world. Including Israel. With the exception of downtown anyways. But really get out of the nice spots the rest of the cities in Israel look no different and no better then those in the West Bank and Gaza. The entire region is really ugly.
Sounds to me like someone taking their North American view of what a city should look like, and ignorantly making judgments on another country that has a totally different way to life.

If you stopped to think for a minute why things look like they do, you might not make these sort of ignorant statements....
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Nov 18, 2012, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Sounds to me like someone taking their North American view of what a city should look like, and ignorantly making judgments on another country that has a totally different way to life.
If you stopped to think for a minute why things look like they do, you might not make these sort of ignorant statements....
Right, of all the ignorant statements for today we have a winner, yours. You are commenting on something I said with out visual reference since I didn't post the links to what I was looking at and making assumptions about what you think are assumptions from me. Im sorry bout regardless of "North America" views or not something that looks shitty looks shitty. Garbage on the streets, homeless filthy dirty and gross looking living under boxes, walls covered in gratify all over, broken glass and left over furniture and other objects littering the ground. By what standards are these supposed to be if not 3rd world. One of the poorest places in North America is right here in my back yard and its cleaner, more inviting and looks safer then entire areas of what is supposed to be Israelis nicest biggest city. Like everything else Israeli, its all Smokes and Mirrors. So if you agree that wondering around in garbage is a "normal way of life" then so be it. That must be the "normal" way of life for Israel.
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Nov 18, 2012, 12:40 PM
 
Show us the pictures.
     
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Nov 18, 2012, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
True but then you have to ask yourself what caused the missiles in the first place. Was it American troops occupying Cuba mistreating people. Was it outside influence like Mexico running a proxy war through Cuba? Rockets would not just be fired at the US for no reason at all.
We'd look at that after the fact, but not before the "Hulk smash!" phase.
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Nov 18, 2012, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I said 7 years ago that Israel needed to just go in and clear out the Gaza Strip. There's no chance for peace with those particular Palestinians, the only option is to give them 2 days notice and then go in with force and physically remove them, by whatever means is necessary. When it comes down to your children or theirs, there is no other option.
I don't think you're even thinking this through: where is Israel supposed to relocate these ~1.7 million people to? Surely Israel cannot force neighboring countries to accept millions of refugees. I think if it were that simple, Israel would have done so already.
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Sooooo.....errrrrrrr......you're putting the blame on Israel for responding with violence after they are violently attacked? You're forcing them into a "turn the other cheek" solution and when they refuse to do so, you blame them? That's ****ed up, Athens.
The way I read his post is that both sides are ensued in a vicious cycle of violence. Both sides currently don't want peace, but Israel as the much stronger party in the conflict is the only side which can bring peace. Keeping a lid on the problem is not peace nor is it a solution, neither is stymying economic growth and complaining about instability.

The point in time and the tactics are particularly suspicious: it's election season in Israel, and Netanyahu wants to be re-elected. And even if we leave all ethical questions aside, militarily, I don't see the point of a drawn out ground offensive, but destroying particular targets using missiles I get.
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Nov 18, 2012, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
but Israel as the much stronger party in the conflict is the only side which can bring peace.
Sure it's just like a progressive tax plan: the rich have to sacrifice more because they are able to. The real problem is whether you believe that the Palestinians are representing only themselves, or whether they're being used by larger anti-Israel powers in the region. If it's Israel v Palestine, then Palestine is the underdog. But if in reality it's Israel v a dozen larger hostile neighbors, then Israel is the underdog. Maybe what Israel needs to do is start obfuscating their attacks like their enemies do. Maybe that was the point of our failed take-over of Iraq, to give Israel someone nearby to launder their violence through...
     
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Nov 18, 2012, 08:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Sure it's just like a progressive tax plan: the rich have to sacrifice more because they are able to.
I wasn't thinking of tax plans, I'm merely being pragmatic. Israel can cut off import of crucial resources, stop Palestinians from exporting, say, produce and fruit. Hence my comment that they're in the driver's seat when it comes to forging a lasting peace. If you mean to imply that the Israeli have more to give to make peace, then yes, I agree, they do have more to give since the other side has almost nothing to give economically or otherwise.
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
The real problem is whether you believe that the Palestinians are representing only themselves, or whether they're being used by larger anti-Israel powers in the region. If it's Israel v Palestine, then Palestine is the underdog. But if in reality it's Israel v a dozen larger hostile neighbors, then Israel is the underdog.
That sounds like you're suggesting Israel fights a proxy war. Of course, plenty of Arab leaders abuse the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for their own purposes. As do many »pro-Israeli« organizations all over the world: I found that the Israeli population is much more critical of their government than, say, many »pro Israel« organizations in the US.

However, I think it's wrong to reduce the conflict to just that: to the Israeli and Palestinian population, it's about living in safety, about being able to make a living and prosper. And right now, both sides seem to think they have more to gain from conflict than from solving the difficult questions which are in the way of a lasting peace. Netanyahu hopes that the conflict with Hamas will divert attention from domestic problems (the »cheese« protests last summer) in order to get re-elected.
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Nov 19, 2012, 02:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Sounds to me like someone taking their North American view of what a city should look like, and ignorantly making judgments on another country that has a totally different way to life.
If you stopped to think for a minute why things look like they do, you might not make these sort of ignorant statements....
Right, of all the ignorant statements for today we have a winner, yours. You are commenting on something I said with out visual reference since I didn't post the links to what I was looking at and making assumptions about what you think are assumptions from me.
...
Like everything else Israeli, its all Smokes and Mirrors.


Aside from the obvious "ignorant statements" trap that you so nicely played along with, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. To call Israel a "3rd world country" is so astonishingly ignorant as to be....well, astonishingly ignorant, really.
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Nov 19, 2012, 05:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don't think you're even thinking this through: where is Israel supposed to relocate these ~1.7 million people to? Surely Israel cannot force neighboring countries to accept millions of refugees. I think if it were that simple, Israel would have done so already.
It's reaching a point of "them or us". Tell the UN they have 30 days to start helping relocate them and clear the Strip, or the whole place is going to be cleared, by whatever conventional means is necessary. "But, that's genocide!" No, it's war, and sometimes tough, unpopular choices have to be made. What would Eisenhower or MacArthur have done? (Let alone LeMay, he was insane.)
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Nov 19, 2012, 08:56 AM
 
That's a stupid idea and would likely precipitate World War III.

I know you probably know that...but unhelpful suggestions are still unhelpful.
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Nov 19, 2012, 09:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
That's a stupid idea and would likely precipitate World War III.
I know you probably know that...but unhelpful suggestions are still unhelpful.
Better now than later, before radical Islam has nukes.
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Nov 19, 2012, 10:41 AM
 
Errrr....and the other countries that are most likely to vehemently oppose such actions? Many of them have nukes. "World War III" implies, almost by definition, that competing factions will hold nukes. And it's not as though such a war battled without nukes would be any less of a catastrophe....


It sounds like you're starting from the conclusion that the Palestinians will inevitably have to be "cleared" (whatever that means). I completely disagree. There are solutions to this conflict, and they will come from education, from the slow elimination of some of the world's most brutal living conditions, and from reasonable concessions made by both sides. There will be bumps and perhaps broken bones (in the broad metaphorical sense) along the way, but this is absolutely a situation that can eventually be resolved.

Look, aboriginals the world over have also faced a similar kind of suppression and marginalization as a result of empire expansion. I doubt any of those conflicts can be considered "resolved" and I am sure they will be ongoing for many decades if not centuries, and may never reach a satisfactory conclusion for any of the parties involved - but there is some level of resolution, and satisfactory success in moving the dispute to a political forum. That can happen here, and should happen here, absolutely, and there are people on both sides working towards that goal.
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Nov 19, 2012, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It's reaching a point of "them or us". Tell the UN they have 30 days to start helping relocate them and clear the Strip, or the whole place is going to be cleared, by whatever conventional means is necessary. "But, that's genocide!" No, it's war, and sometimes tough, unpopular choices have to be made. What would Eisenhower or MacArthur have done? (Let alone LeMay, he was insane.)
That's about a realistic a scenario as all the political leaders of the Middle East coming together, holding hands and singing Kumbaya after they make up and hug. And I find the » "But, that's genocide!" No, it's war, and sometimes tough …« appalling, genocide is unacceptable.
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Nov 19, 2012, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's about a realistic a scenario as all the political leaders of the Middle East coming together, holding hands and singing Kumbaya after they make up and hug. And I find the » "But, that's genocide!" No, it's war, and sometimes tough …« appalling, genocide is unacceptable.
Well, it's either carpet bombing or invasion, if the Palestinian idiots don't stop shooting missiles into major cities, that's going to happen. Might as well get it over with, no one's going to be any happier if it's next year or 10 years from now. At least this way the Arab world doesn't have nukes yet.
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Nov 19, 2012, 05:16 PM
 
Third option: Israel gets a PM who doesn't think he's Moses.
     
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Nov 19, 2012, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, it's either carpet bombing or invasion, if the Palestinian idiots don't stop shooting missiles into major cities, that's going to happen. Might as well get it over with, no one's going to be any happier if it's next year or 10 years from now.
I don't subscribe to that fatalistic point of view. In any case, if this hypothetical scenario comes to pass, the repercussions for Israel would be severe if that were to happen, and rightfully so. It's always easier to break things than to build things.
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
At least this way the Arab world doesn't have nukes yet.
Pakistan does have nukes, unfortunately, so that's a reality already.* Given the ties between parts of Pakistan to the Taliban, Pakistan's existing nuclear arsenal much more worrying to me than Iran's potential arsenal at the moment.

* I am aware that most Pakistanis are not of Arab ethnicity, but they do have very close ties to the Arab world.
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Nov 19, 2012, 05:56 PM
 
Pakistan basically runs the Taliban. You don't give nukes to your pawn.
     
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Nov 19, 2012, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don't subscribe to that fatalistic point of view. In any case, if this hypothetical scenario comes to pass, the repercussions for Israel would be severe if that were to happen, and rightfully so. It's always easier to break things than to build things.
Pakistan does have nukes, unfortunately, so that's a reality already.* Given the ties between parts of Pakistan to the Taliban, Pakistan's existing nuclear arsenal much more worrying to me than Iran's potential arsenal at the moment.
* I am aware that most Pakistanis are not of Arab ethnicity, but they do have very close ties to the Arab world.
There are a limited amount of times you can poke the bear before you're killed. Every missile is a poke, only thing that has to happen is one of them hits the wrong place at the wrong time and a high ranking official's child is killed, then it's on. It's inevitable.

No, Pakistanis aren't Arabs, they'd get rather pissed over that. Unless it's India, they're pretty sedate with the sabre rattling. Israel wouldn't set them off, they'd be afraid of retaliation.
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Nov 19, 2012, 08:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Pakistan basically runs the Taliban. You don't give nukes to your pawn.
True, but the Taliban and nuclear weapons are way too close a proximity for my taste. I don't want to think about what happens if the Pakistani government unravels and a nuke or two are in the hands of some rogue general.
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Nov 20, 2012, 12:42 AM
 
The government already unraveled. The military has called the shots there for a long time.

Is there any precedent for a military dictatorship giving nukes to a bunch of goat herders?
     
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Nov 30, 2012, 12:33 AM
 
In other news:
Towelheads now demand their own state!!! Have they no shame?


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Nov 30, 2012, 01:27 AM
 
Is it really necessary to use a slur like "Towelheads"?
     
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Nov 30, 2012, 02:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Is it really necessary to use a slur like "Towelheads"?
Readjust your sarcasmonometer.

I think the first place I ever heard the term was on these boards.

PacHead is, happily, no longer with us.

(also note that subego set the sarcastic tone with his "goat herders", which you apparently didn't pick up on as a racial slur.)
     
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Nov 30, 2012, 05:06 AM
 
Racial slur?

I think you misread. That was a classist slur.



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Dec 9, 2012, 05:39 PM
 
"Poor Palestinians".... you mean the ones who say "No" to peace? In their words, actions and aspirations?

Unbelievable how the "left" has twisted and distorted the facts, and in doing so vilify Israel.

Where's the pressure for those "poor Palestinians" to make peace? Surely not for the US or EU? How about the other Arab/Muslim states?

Here's a thought..... since the new islamist government in Egypt and the "government" in Gaza are essentially the same, why doesn't Egypt take responsibility over the Gaze Strip? Egypt has a "peace treaty" with Israel (Lord only knows how much Israel and the U.S. have to pay Egypt to maintain peace, because the Arabs want "peace"(aka $$) so badly). That way Israel gets a peace on it's borders, and Egypt+Gaza gets "Egyptian protection" with free trade, etc ?

"Peace" is the goal right?
     
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Dec 10, 2012, 12:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Here's a thought..... since the new islamist government in Egypt and the "government" in Gaza are essentially the same, why doesn't Egypt take responsibility over the Gaze Strip?
Because Egypt doesn't want to admit a strip's worth of extremists (most of which are not native Palestinians) to start making trouble inside its borders. It would be a great solution for everyone else. Even just opening the border between Egypt and Gaza would solve a lot of problems for everyone except Egypt. Egypt is not the most stable place around at the moment, which is why the US has to be very careful about the pressure it puts on it.
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Dec 10, 2012, 07:02 AM
 
We could have put on pressure long before Egypt went off the rails.
     
   
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