Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Laminar · Jul 21, 2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

complete ignorance my ass, one speed is LARGE one is SMALL. In some states if you import a car from Canada you have to convert at great cost. In Canada if you import a Car from the US you have to convert it at great cost. Digital readouts are the only ones not affected. Still 2 sets of speedometers between Mexico, Canada and the US. Who's the ignorant one?

Originally Posted by Athens

Means 2 sets of tools. My Prelude uses all metric bolts, I wonder if my Ford is using all American sizes.

*stick pokey eye gif*

Waragainstsleep · Jul 21, 2011, 06:46 PM

If we were going to agree to just use one unit for a given measurement from now on, then it would have to be the SI units for everything.

Since it appears that people here actually enjoy having a range of units to choose from for some odd reason so I propose that instead of arguing pointlessly, we focus our efforts on inventing new, clever or at least amusing units for future use.

Personally I think the temperature was around a tenth of an oven today.
I would estimate the humidity at three quarters of a leg (I feel this one requires some explanation - this equates to the amount of wetness you'd feel if you dipped 3/4 of your leg into water, only spread out over your entire body).

Laminar · Jul 21, 2011, 06:53 PM

SpaceMonkey · Jul 21, 2011, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep

If we were going to agree to just use one unit for a given measurement from now on, then it would have to be the SI units for everything.

Since it appears that people here actually enjoy having a range of units to choose from for some odd reason so I propose that instead of arguing pointlessly, we focus our efforts on inventing new, clever or at least amusing units for future use.

Personally I think the temperature was around a tenth of an oven today.
I would estimate the humidity at three quarters of a leg (I feel this one requires some explanation - this equates to the amount of wetness you'd feel if you dipped 3/4 of your leg into water, only spread out over your entire body).

My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it!

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 21, 2011, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

"For all intensive purposes?"

U need moar reading.

imitchellg5 · Jul 21, 2011, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

U need moar reading.

It's "for all intents and purposes."

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 21, 2011, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by CreepDogg

This makes no sense. If they're interchangeable, then what makes one superior? Does not compute.

Well they're not entirely interchangeable - K and C are, F is slightly different. But again, my point didn't go towards superiority - it went towards you guys hanging on to it long after the rest of the world has moved on - just as you've done with the rest of imperial measurements.

Originally Posted by subego

I'm not gonna budge on one number (and the number being zero at that) being easier than three.

Uhhhhhh....okay. You're really arguing superiority of numbers based on the size? That might be a factor with people who...can't count to 100, I suppose?

And again, I already pointed out that if you're claiming superiority based on the size of the number (which I simply don't understand), then wouldn't C be "superior" than F anyway? Or wait, can those people not understand "below zero" either?

Repeating now, if I need to divide a unit into eighths, a ruler with units divided into eighths is what I want. If I need to divide a unit into tenths, a ruler with units divided by tenths is what I need.

What the unit is is irrelevant. Whether I want to divide something into eighths or tenths is dictated by the application, not the choice of units.

I'm not "more comfortable" dividing into eighths (in fact, I'm less comfortable because I think in base 10), sometimes the application demands it (say, eight evenly spaced screws). If the application demands it and I'm using inches, I'm set. If I'm using decimeters, it's difficult.

Again. This problem is not inherent in the units, it's an artifact of what people have standardized for rulers.

Um. Your rulers. Mine have millimeters on them. And your example, really makes no sense. 8 evenly spaced screws?? What if it's 10 evenly spaced screws? Do you start converting everything into metric then, because "it's better for this particular application"?

And again, at the end of the day, if all you're doing is trying to measure if something is 4 feet 8 inches, then...sure, imperial is fine. But if you're actually doing work with measurements or units of scale, then metric is simply far easier and exhibits far better granularity.

greg

Athens · Jul 21, 2011, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

LOL that is sooooo true

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 21, 2011, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

It's "for all intents and purposes."

Please, for the love of all that is Holy, go back to my post and, this time, actually read the parts that you simply deleted when you decided to quote me.

Mmmmmkay dear?

brassplayersrock² · Jul 21, 2011, 08:11 PM

What's the code for the stick poke? A poster above seems to have forgotten. Thanks

Talk to you soon shortcut <3 I miss our talks.

subego · 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

You're really arguing superiority of numbers based on the size? That might be a factor with people who...can't count to 100, I suppose?

I can tell ease of communication isn't something you care about

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

And again, I already pointed out that if you're claiming superiority based on the size of the number (which I simply don't understand), then wouldn't C be "superior" than F anyway?

To which I directly responded.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Um. Your rulers. Mine have millimeters on them. And your example, really makes no sense. 8 evenly spaced screws?? What if it's 10 evenly spaced screws? Do you start converting everything into metric then, because "it's better for this particular application"?

No. You're ****ed. You eyeball it, and it's only as accurate as that, rather than as accurate as your ruler. Which in your case, doesn't have the accuracy to measure, say, a sixteenth of a decimeter.

Breaking up a unit of length (whatever it is) into fractions with divisors which are powers of two is useful. I'm not budging on that one either.

I'll admit my example was bad. I can give you a different one if you'd like.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

But if you're actually doing work with measurements or units of scale, then metric is simply far easier and exhibits far better granularity.

Which I already ****ing said.

Jesus Haploid Christ.

subego · Jul 21, 2011, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

*stick pokey eye gif*

I never noticed it was the eye, I had thought it was the butt.

Railroader · Jul 21, 2011, 09:55 PM

I deeply regret getting into this retarded argument.

One quick question (and there is NO deeper meaning behind this one, don't even try to look for it): Builders who work in SI, what distance apart are your floor/ceiling joists?

Lastly, I have no idea how hot it felt today as I never left the 76ºF/297.4ºK AC in the house. The news said it hit 100ºF/310.8ºK Here in Indy with 115ºF/319.1ºK heat index. Pair that with no rain at all for a few weeks... NO MOSQUITOS!!!

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 21, 2011, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by subego

No. You're ****ed. You eyeball it, and it's only as accurate as that, rather than as accurate as your ruler. Which in your case, doesn't have the accuracy to measure, say, a sixteenth of a decimeter.

Why do you keep getting on about the decimeter? That's just....10 centimetres, right? You're looking for 1/16th of 10 centimetres? So....what's that, 6.25 millimetres? Every ruler has millimetres, and unless you need to be accurate down to the quarter-millimetre - in which case you probably need a magnifying glass and a super-duper fine pen - that's pretty easy to measure.

You count six of the tiny little lines - those are "millimetres" so, what, 1/32nd of an inch each? - and then add a little bit. Voila.

subego · Jul 21, 2011, 10:19 PM

Just try dividing a mosquito into eighths with metric.

macforray · Jul 21, 2011, 11:04 PM

New record here in Syracuse today: 101 F

CreepDogg · Jul 21, 2011, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by subego

Jesus Haploid Christ.

I can only surmise that the Canuckistanis and Yuropeans have a serious complex about making all the effort to move to SI only to watch the 'mericans go 'Meh, that's just too much work!'

subego · Jul 22, 2011, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Why do you keep getting on about the decimeter? That's just....10 centimetres, right? You're looking for 1/16th of 10 centimetres? So....what's that, 6.25 millimetres? Every ruler has millimetres, and unless you need to be accurate down to the quarter-millimetre - in which case you probably need a magnifying glass and a super-duper fine pen - that's pretty easy to measure.

You count six of the tiny little lines - those are "millimetres" so, what, 1/32nd of an inch each? - and then add a little bit. Voila.

You're absolutely right. My math Fu failed me there.

I was choosing decimeters because that's a unit which is likely to be divided into sixteenths. With a centimeter, accurately getting a sixteenth would be hard, but that admittedly has less utility.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by subego

1.25 mm is fine if your ruler has hash marks out to 10 microns, and you presumably have a magnifying glass.

Edit: 50 microns. Whoops.

Far less than I deal with 1/8th or 1/16th units, which is all the time.

That's funny, because for some reason, our world works in millimeters.

Most measurement systems have units of various scales, appropriate to the context. The major difference is that sytems based on weird (non-base-10) fractions are not easily converted between.

Do you actually have any examples where it makes sense to work with fractions?

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by subego

I was choosing decimeters because that's a unit which is likely to be divided into sixteenths.

Why on earth would that be the case? At least, I've never had to, not in over thirty years.

The ONLY reason you would regularly want to convert anything into 16ths or 32ndths is if your unit system is based on those arcane fractions.

subego · Jul 22, 2011, 05:15 AM

It seems really weird to me that a musician can't see why one might want to take a unit, divide it in half, and then divide those half-units in half.

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 22, 2011, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Actually, running a licensed group home, we have to keep our freezers at 0ºF. Or would that be easier to remember as -17.7777777ºC? You keep a freezer at 0ºC and nothing will be frozen.

As for cooking... (USDA safe cooking temps)
Poultry - 165ºF = 73.88888888888889ºC
Ground meats - 160 °F = 71.11111111111111ºC
Steaks and Roasts - 145ºF = 62.77777777777778ºC

Baking... (using common baking temps)
350ºF = 176.66666666666669ºC
375ºF = 190.55555555555557ºC
500ºF = 260ºC

Originally Posted by Railroader

Lastly, I have no idea how hot it felt today as I never left the 76ºF/297.4ºK AC in the house. The news said it hit 100ºF/310.8ºK Here in Indy with 115ºF/319.1ºK heat index. Pair that with no rain at all for a few weeks... NO MOSQUITOS!!!

I know you don't see this...but it's pretty funny to see that, since you've no experience with them, you can't "think" in metric units. It's like really old people in Canada for instance...they still "think" in feet/miles/F and then work out the conversion in their heads.

greg

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by subego

It seems really weird to me that a musician can't see why one might want to take a unit, divide it in half, and then divide those half-units in half.

I really should go with the impulse to follow inane tangents as I post, just in case somebody else does.

I was thinking of quarters and sixteenth/32nd/etc. notes as well, but didn't go there because it's so ridiculous to compare measurement systems designed to describe the physical world to a tautological construct most commonly based around a four-beat bar.

Musical notes work great that way because that's actually how the world is built that they're made to describe. It is, as I said, "based on those arcane fractions". The physical world isn't, AFAICT.

Boy, do they get weird though when you deal with septuplets over eighths.

Incidentally, working with intervals/partials is one area where fractions are the perfect medium, since the frequency difference between an octave is exactly 2:1, a fifth exactly 3:2, a fourth exactly 4:3, and a third exactly 5:4. But you don't actually ever WORK with those fractions - you just use them once to figure out the relationship and convert instantly to Hz.

I still haven't seen a single instance where measuring something in fractions has the slightest advantage over using a number.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I deeply regret getting into this retarded argument.

One quick question (and there is NO deeper meaning behind this one, don't even try to look for it): Builders who work in SI, what distance apart are your floor/ceiling joists?

I'm not a builder, but common ceiling heights here are 2.30, 2.50, 2.80, or 3m.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by CreepDogg

I can only surmise that the Canuckistanis and Yuropeans have a serious complex about making all the effort to move to SI only to watch the 'mericans go 'Meh, that's just too much work!'

It's just amusing to see the US staunchly refuse to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 1900s.

Why do I need a second toolset just to deal with stuff from the US? This is 2011, not ****ing 1874.

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 22, 2011, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by subego

It seems really weird to me that a musician can't see why one might want to take a unit, divide it in half, and then divide those half-units in half.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

I still haven't seen a single instance where measuring something in fractions has the slightest advantage of using a number.

Yeah, haha. It's the same thing! And it gets easier when you can convert easily into different granularity scales!

1/2 a metre = 0.5m; 1/2 0.5m = 0.25m; 1/2 0.25m = 0.125m; 1/2 0.125m = 0.0625m.......& infinity. We're still "doing fractions", just in another form.

But what about my 0.0625m? Or wait, is that 6.25cm? Or 62.5mm? Or 0.625 of the decimetres that subego loves? Now what if we have a mammoth comparison scale - that's 0.0000625km! Travel 6.25cm in an hour and you've got 0.0000625km/h! We can easily express that distance or speed at space-shuttle or some infinitely small measure of granularity, just by moving the decimal around.

greg

Laminar · Jul 22, 2011, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

I'm not a builder, but common ceiling heights here are 2.30, 2.50, 2.80, or 3m.

I think he was looking for ceiling joist spacing i.e. 16" between each joist.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 08:01 AM

Since 16" is almost exactly 40 cm, it's either that, or more likely standardized at 50 cm.

If building technique over here even incorporates such things, that is.

As I mentioned earlier when he posted those stupid oven temperatures, the cool thing about SI units is that they're numbers that can be rounded just like Imperial units.

I know it's difficult to imagine that we might not be working exactly with 40.94 cm (16 inches), but you know, it's been A HUNDRED YEARS, so just maybe, we've standardized on something close that's easy to figure.

Oven temps are neat, too -

350ºF = 176.66666666666669ºC
375ºF = 190.55555555555557ºC
500ºF = 260ºC

Railroader apparently doesn't realize that those are rounded to the nearest 25°. Guess what? The most common oven temperatures called for by recipes here are 180°, 200°, 230°, and 250°.

OMG IT'S TOO COMPLECATORED :Amerikan head asplodes:

BadKosh · Jul 22, 2011, 08:08 AM

And despite all the BS, it's STILL HOT AS HELL OUTSIDE! I can see why tempers flared in the 1770's summers in the mid-Atlantic.

Laminar · Jul 22, 2011, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Railroader apparently doesn't realize that those are rounded to the nearest 25°. Guess what? The most common oven temperatures called for by recipes here are 180°, 200°, 230°, and 250°.

OMG IT'S TOO COMPLECATORED :Amerikan head asplodes:

I'm hoping his post was tongue-in-cheek, as I hope yours is as well.

SpaceMonkey · Jul 22, 2011, 09:15 AM

The heat index is too damn high! (115 deg.+ today)

The Final Dakar · Jul 22, 2011, 09:27 AM

If someone told me that was Samuel L. Jackson's dad, I'd believe them.

osiris · Jul 22, 2011, 09:36 AM

What?

andi*pandi · Jul 22, 2011, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Pair that with no rain at all for a few weeks... NO MOSQUITOS!!!

Thank you for finding a silver lining. We've been eating dinner outside more this week, and I thought there were fewer bitey bugs.

101 in boston today.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

I'm hoping his post was tongue-in-cheek, as I hope yours is as well.

No, I really do believe that rounded SI values will cause Americans' heads to asplode.

The Final Dakar · Jul 22, 2011, 10:03 AM

This is how WWIII will start.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 10:10 AM

IT'S METRIC!

Laminar · Jul 22, 2011, 10:53 AM

MOVE THE DECIMAL POINT??!?

Spheric Harlot · Jul 22, 2011, 10:57 AM

TENTHS INSTEAD OF EIGHTHS???

The Final Dakar · Jul 22, 2011, 11:00 AM

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S NOT BUTTER!

turtle777 · Jul 22, 2011, 11:09 AM

damn, my caps lock key is broken 1111111

-t

sek929 · Jul 22, 2011, 11:15 AM

98º in the shade here, I can only imagine how much hotter it would be away from the ocean.

ShortcutToMoncton · Jul 22, 2011, 12:59 PM

At cool 17 degrees C here......THAT CONVERTS TO 62.6 F, NO IDEA HOW YOU CAN POSSIBLY READ YOUR THERMOMETERS LIKE THAT LOLWUT

osiris · Jul 22, 2011, 01:12 PM

98º in NYC... the city looks so empty. Going over the Central Park to catch a cool breeze at the pond. Or at least pretend that the breeze is cool. Even the ducks and geese are hiding from the sun.

hart · Jul 22, 2011, 06:24 PM

We went up to 101 for a bit here in Brooklyn. Now it's down to a balmy 100. 37.778 celsius. We don't have AC so we're all planted in front of a personal fan. BYOF in this house.

TomR · Jul 22, 2011, 06:42 PM

102F. in Poughkeepsie,N.Y. today. Currently 94.

BLAZE_MkIV · Jul 22, 2011, 06:58 PM

104f outside here. right now.

brassplayersrock² · Jul 22, 2011, 07:36 PM

A high of 80ºF here with a nice ocean breeze.

sek929 · Jul 22, 2011, 08:09 PM

Got up to 102 in the shade, one of the hottest days I've ever experienced in this area.

brassplayersrock² · Jul 22, 2011, 11:32 PM

sek, the highest for me in Boston was 105. Of course it was on my busiest class day. Not a fun day at all.