[JohnnySkeeky]

Well, I resisted changing over to OS X for a good year or better, and when I finally made the move, ti was TRUE: OS X almost never crashes. However, that advantaged has been largely negated lately by the recent tendency of MOST of my apps to crash right and left with little or no provocation.

The most annoying of these - so far - is Safari, which crashes before it's even fully launched, but even more integral programs are wonky.

I can't try fixing permissions because Disk Utility crashes. I can't change my default browser because System Preferences crashes (that IS where it's done, right?) And the varioius Mozilla browsers only seem to have the "Make Default" option available for Windows. Font Book crashes when you try to actually use it; Suitcase kind of works, but is very unstable. Et cetera.

I think this might have begun right after a storm that knoced out power briefly. Tech Tool says everything looks fine to it. Any theories? Am I looking at a hardware or software problem?

Thanks for any assistance.

~John Mayer

[flanders]

Well, I for one think you have a hardware problem. Usually in these circumstances, memory is the culprit--have you tried your memory separately to see if the crashes go away with different configurations of RAM?

[Link]

It definitely sounds like your memory is hosed.

[zerostar]

Vote #3 for the memory being bad. Also you might want to try DiskWarrior or boot off your System CD to repair permissions and verify the drive.

[JohnnySkeeky]

Thanks, all. Did DiskWarrior; haven't tried Permissions Repair yet. My local guru also suspected memory, so I guess that's the way to bet. Darn it; I was hoping tosave up for a newer Mac instead of buying stuff for this one. Can I use G3 memory in a G4 or G5? How about on a Mactel machine? Oh, well; guess I've got no choice. Might as well try the permissions thing first; nothing to lose. Thanks for your advice.

~John Mayer

[Big Mac]

Hope you isolate the issue. Applications rarely crash in OS X. And as far as Safari is concerned, I have Safari open with many tabs and put it through a great deal of usage without relaunching for weeks at a time. Of course, select things, such as Java applets, can make it a bit less stable.

[d.fine]

I've been having the same symptoms lately, apps crashing more frequently than I'd like, but then I've been getting KP's all over the place as well, so no wonder I guess. I'm taking mine in in a few days...
From what I can deduce from the crash logs one of the CPU's is going

[Big Mac]

I wonder what makes you say that, d.fine. Are you assuming that there is a hardware failure because of a panic identified as occurring in cpu 0 (or something similar to that), or is there another factor that leads you to that supposition?

[oscar]

i would like you to try and replaced the launchd program, reinstalling is the only real solution, unless you go the pacifist route

[d.fine]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I wonder what makes you say that, d.fine. Are you assuming that there is a hardware failure because of a panic identified as occurring in cpu 0 (or something similar to that), or is there another factor that leads you to that supposition?

Yes there is. I read the 'Panic/Freezes/KP's" sticky thread in the Mac OS forum, and they posted some examples of KP logs and how to interpret/read them.
This is my original post :

My G5 has had 3 KP's lately and they have got me really worried. I have performed Extended Apple Hardware Test and Repaired Permissions, which have found nothing, and also have done nothing. These KP's only happen after an extended period of sleep, like 8-10 hours, any less and these do not take place, they happenwhen waking the machine the next morning.
These KP's worry me because I cannot find any software or anything after "Kernel loadable modules in backtrace (with dependencies):", which make me believe this might be a hardware problem. This "Unresolved kernel trap(cpu 0):" worries me.
I have never had any problems with this machine. The first 2 happened shortly after installing a 20"ACD. The third one happened this morning after installing a 2nd HD last night. Otherwise no new software or extensions have been installed. What I find odd as well is that I have been having problems with another user lately. Namely if my main user and this other one are signed in together, one will allow me to sign out, then the other one will force a restart because the computer is unresponsive. MenuMeters and the clock still work, but I cannot click on or do anything.
Here is what I see in the panic.log : (the first 2 KP's showed nearly the same message, the third one looked different, so I inlcluded it here.)

Since I did not find any software or other references in the log's, and I have tried sleeping the machine in various different ways (login win apps quit, logged out, login win apps open, ...) disconnecting all peripherals except keyb and mouse, and still getting these KP's after wake up, I'm assuming it's a hardware issue. I could be wrong of course, like I said "what I can deduce from the crash logs" ...
This machine has had zero problems since aug 04, and then I get a 20"ACD and the KP's start. Since no one responded in the Mac OS thread, maybe someone here can help.

edit : here's the RTF file with my KP log.

[JohnnySkeeky]

Well, original poster here again. Bad ram seemed to be the consensus, so I tried to test it. None of my repair apps seemed to have a good ram tester, so I downloaded Rember and Memtest. Couldn't use Memtest because my terminal window will only open wide enough to reveal the "Close" button, sort of like the old gag machine that, when you flipped a little lever, shook for a moment or two until a little ghostly hand came out and switched it off again. Except here it's not funny. I recall now that I've always had that problem which is one reason I've never used the terminal. Besides, command-line stuff bewilders my simple hunter-gatherer mind. And Rember... crashes as soon as I hit the "Go" button.

So I tried testing my four memory sticks one at a time, i.e, starting up with only one stick in place. The three larger ones boot up fine, but the crashing apps still crash. The smaller one - I don't know where to find the size, but it only has the little black squares on one side - won't boot at all; I just get a flashing question mark.

I've now owned two Macs and, despite being, obviously, not very technical, I've always managed to troubleshoot them myself, but I fear I may, at long last, have to seek the assitance of a professional. Before I break my longstanding record (since 1994), any last minute theories. Thanks to all for your previous help regardless.

~John Mayer

[JohnnySkeeky]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]I thought it might be useful to someone far brighter than myself if I include part of the crash report. I know text is virtually weightless, but to avoid a lengthy scroll I'll only paste in the first bit. If this is useful info to anyone in analyzing my problem I'll cheerfully send the entire text. On the upside, the problem is easily reproducible. If that's an upside.

Sorry if this is as meaningless to most of you as it is to me.

~John Mayer[/FONT]
______________________
Command: Safari
Path: /Applications/Web/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/Safari
Version: 1.3 (312)
PID: 564
Thread: 0

Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE (0x0002) at 0x00000006

Thread 0 Crashed:
0 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x901c39ac CFHash + 0x18
1 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x901c2d08 __CFDictionaryFindBuckets1b + 0x70
2 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x901c2164 CFDictionaryGetValue + 0xec
3 com.apple.WebKit 0x94fe35a0 -[WebTextRendererFactory isFontFixedPitch:] + 0x58
4 com.apple.WebCore 0x97401bf0 _ZNK5QFont12isFixedPitchEv + 0x74
5 com.apple.WebCore 0x9740d594 _ZNK5khtml10RenderText23shouldUseMonospaceCacheEPK NS_4FontE + 0x28
6 com.apple.WebCore 0x974068a8 _ZN5khtml10RenderText11cacheWidthsEv + 0x2c
7 com.apple.WebCore 0x9755c73c _ZN5khtml8RenderBR8setStyleEPNS_11RenderStyleE + 0x18
8 com.apple.WebCore 0x973e6d30 _ZN3DOM8NodeImpl22createRendererIfNeededEv + 0xd8
9 com.apple.WebCore 0x97400738 _ZN3DOM11ElementImpl6attachEv + 0x18
10 com.apple.WebCore 0x973e7248 _ZN11KHTMLParser10insertNodeEPN3DOM8NodeImplEb + 0x114
11 com.apple.WebCore 0x973e6050 _ZN11KHTMLParser10parseTokenEPN5khtml5TokenE + 0x26c
12 com.apple.WebCore 0x975522ac _ZN5khtml13HTMLTokenizer12processTokenEv + 0x1cc
13 com.apple.WebCore 0x97550e10 _ZN5khtml13HTMLTokenizer8parseTagERNS_15TokenizerS tringE + 0x18d0

[Groovy]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

Well, original poster here again. Bad ram seemed to be the consensus, so I tried to test it. None of my repair apps seemed to have a good ram tester, so I downloaded Rember and Memtest. Couldn't use Memtest because my terminal window will only open wide enough to reveal the "Close" button, sort of like the old gag machine that, when you flipped a little lever, shook for a moment or two until a little ghostly hand came out and switched it off again. Except here it's not funny. I recall now that I've always had that problem which is one reason I've never used the terminal. Besides, command-line stuff bewilders my simple hunter-gatherer mind. And Rember... crashes as soon as I hit the "Go" button.

So I tried testing my four memory sticks one at a time, i.e, starting up with only one stick in place. The three larger ones boot up fine, but the crashing apps still crash. The smaller one - I don't know where to find the size, but it only has the little black squares on one side - won't boot at all; I just get a flashing question mark.

I've now owned two Macs and, despite being, obviously, not very technical, I've always managed to troubleshoot them myself, but I fear I may, at long last, have to seek the assitance of a professional. Before I break my longstanding record (since 1994), any last minute theories. Thanks to all for your previous help regardless.

~John Mayer

first off open terminal app and set your window size default BIGGER.

Now assuming your hard drives and install on them are ok it is bad RAM 99% of the time.
You KP because wired heap is getting corrupted as well as app heap space.
Flaky ram is total random on its flakiness and what address gets a bad read/write
could be anywhere.

A bad CPU. If you had a dual box i would say turn off 1 CPU then the other but if you
have a G3, as it appears, then you can't do that that. The good news is G3's are so
cheap these days if i turns out to be that it will not cost much at all to get a new
one and in fact i would upgrade to a faster one while you are at it.

[JohnnySkeeky]

Thanks, Groovy! (Did you know that the term "groovy" goes all the way back at least to the 30's? I discovered it in an old Bertie and Jeeves story.)

Unfortunately, the only "Bigger" command in any of Terminal's drop-down menues is under Font. Under Window there is a "Zoom" command, but that only moves the little red eye to a different place on my monitor. There is also "Return to Default Size" which has no apparent effect.

As to the faulty ram, I'm sure you are correct, but just to edge me slightly closer to computer literacy, what was wrong with my scheme of testing each stick individually? The problem persisted with all three of the larger sticks and wouldn't boot at all with the smallest; does that mean all three (or four) sticks are bad? Or is there some flaw in that method of testing them? If I go now and buy one brand new stick and use just that one, should I assume that will eliminate the problem? And, if not, does that mean ram's not the problem after all, or that I've just purchased more bad ram (I gather that's not unheard of).

Buying a used G4 seems like a good idea, and I might even be able to afford it, but I think I still must keep my G3 operational. I have a large format Mustek scanner - I used to be a professional artist and still dabble - that only works when I boot into OS 9; Classic will not do. And I believe I've heard that nothing beyond the G3 will boot into 9. True? Or should that be a question for a seperate thread?

Again, thanks to one and all for your assistance.


~John Mayer

[ReggieX]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

Can I use G3 memory in a G4 or G5? How about on a Mactel machine?

Blue & White G3s use PC-100 RAM, so you could use them in the Yikes, Sawtooth and Multiprocessor models. Anything after that needs faster memory.

And Mactels don't exist, so no to that as well.

[Groovy]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

Thanks, Groovy! (Did you know that the term "groovy" goes all the way back at least to the 30's? I discovered it in an old Bertie and Jeeves story.)

LOL no i didn't

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

Unfortunately, the only "Bigger" command in any of Terminal's drop-down menues is under Font. Under Window there is a "Zoom" command, but that only moves the little red eye to a different place on my monitor. There is also "Return to Default Size" which has no apparent effect.

ummm... no under the file menu is an item called (prepare to be amazed)

Window settings

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

what was wrong with my scheme of testing each stick individually?

nothing wrong, that is a good way unless 2+ sticks are bad. Then you are forced just test 1 stick
in the box at a time and you may not have enough ram then and will be slow slow slow with
major disk thrashing via VM file read/writes.

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

As to the faulty ram, I'm sure you are correct, but just to edge me slightly closer to computer literacy, what was wrong with my scheme of testing each stick individually? The problem persisted with all three of the larger sticks and wouldn't boot at all with the smallest; does that mean all three (or four) sticks are bad? Or is there some flaw in that method of testing them? If I go now and buy one brand new stick and use just that one, should I assume that will eliminate the problem? And, if not, does that mean ram's not the problem after all, or that I've just purchased more bad ram (I gather that's not unheard of).
Buying a used G4 seems like a good idea, and I might even be able to afford it, but I think I still must keep my G3 operational. I have a large format Mustek scanner - I used to be a professional artist and still dabble - that only works when I boot into OS 9; Classic will not do. And I believe I've heard that nothing beyond the G3 will boot into 9. True? Or should that be a question for a seperate thread?

The odds of all 4 (you did say 4 right lol ) sticks being bad is very very low so if possible boot up
with just 1 stick at a time and do your tests. If all 4 boots show problems then something else is wrong.
(or you are the most unlucky ram owner ever lol)

If it turns out to be the mobo or cpu and if it was me i would upgrade to a G4 since OSX runs much better
on G4 than G3.


As for your G3. No OSX driver for your scanner? What about a twain driver?

[JohnnySkeeky]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky
Unfortunately, the only "Bigger" command in any of Terminal's drop-down menues is under Font. Under Window there is a "Zoom" command, but that only moves the little red eye to a different place on my monitor. There is also "Return to Default Size" which has no apparent effect.


ummm... no under the file menu is an item called (prepare to be amazed)

Window settings

Well, not amazed, perhaps, but non-plussed certainly. There is such a dropdown under the "Terminal" menu heading in my version, but the closest thing to Bigger, under the sub-menu "Window," is Dimensions which defaults to 511 columns and 5 rows. If I change it it just changes back when I'm not looking. I don't know how big a row is, but maybe that's the source of my problem. I can't seem to find any way to change it.

Then you are forced just test 1 stick in the box at a time and you may not have enough ram then and will be slow slow slow with major disk thrashing via VM file read/writes.

That's what I did, actually; I didn't describe it well. It would boot up with a single stick well enough, except for the smallest, and ran okay, but the crashing apps remained the same.

The odds of all 4 (you did say 4 right lol ) sticks being bad is very very low so if possible boot up
with just 1 stick at a time and do your tests. If all 4 boots show problems then something else is wrong. (or you are the most unlucky ram owner ever lol)

Being the unluckiest ram owner ever seems quite within the realm of possibility, actually. I could easily be the subject of a country song if there were country songs about computers.

As for your G3. No OSX driver for your scanner? What about a twain driver?

Nope, nothing. Mustek's earlier support for Mac was pretty much limited to some half-assed twain support, but nothing at all for OS X. I've complained to the Russian consul and I'm boycotting vodka, but they're hanging tough. New scanners are cheap, but not new LARGE FORMAT scanners, so, till my ship comes in, I've got to find some way to keep this scanner usable. Scanning parts of a piece of art a half dozen times and fitting all the pieces together is a nightmare.

Thanks, Groovy. And thanks, ReggieX, for the ram info; I know Mactels don't exist yet, I'm not sure they ever should, but, since I tend to hang on to my Macs for about a decade - one reason they have such poor yearly market share - I want to be ready just in case. Sounds like no ram I get for my G3 is going to be transferable to 21st century Macs, though.

Best regards,
~John Mayer

[Groovy]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

Well, not amazed, perhaps, but non-plussed certainly. There is such a dropdown under the "Terminal" menu heading in my version, but the closest thing to Bigger, under the sub-menu "Window," is Dimensions which defaults to 511 columns and 5 rows. If I change it it just changes back when I'm not looking. I don't know how big a row is, but maybe that's the source of my problem. I can't seem to find any way to change it.

yeah it is under Terminal. i was going by memory i just looked for real.
At least i got the menu item name right lol

right dimensions is what you want. Now what you set this too depends a lot
on your screen rez but a safe setting of 40 x 40 should fit even in a 1024 x 768 screen,
(1600 x 1200 rez here )

Just grab the window resize widget and make the window as big as you want
then hit the "use settings as default"

If the resize widget is off screen just type in the boxes 40 40 and change the
title name while you are at it as a test then hit the "use settings as default"
button.

now all NEW terminal windows will be that size and have the new title name.
So go to the file menu and select the menu item NEW SHELL and a new window
will open at that size and new title in its window bar

if it is still hosed goto the WINDOW menu and see what the window is called
and what size it is showing. If it is not correct then i would dump the prefs
file and see if that helps. let it go back to all defaults.


~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.Terminal.plist

Delete it

note if you open that up you will see the columns and rows settings. You can set them there also.

[nonhuman]

If nothing else, I've got an old rev. A iMac and a Blueberry iMac sitting around my office. I think the blueberry has some hardware problems (and I really couldn't be arsed to test it), but I seriously doubt anyone would care if I got rid of one (both) of them.

Dunno if you're anywhere near SF, but I've also got 2 or 3 blueberries sitting around in Boston. Probably a few in San Diego as well, but I'm not sure.

[ReggieX]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeeky

And thanks, ReggieX, for the ram info; I know Mactels don't exist yet, I'm not sure they ever should, but, since I tend to hang on to my Macs for about a decade - one reason they have such poor yearly market share - I want to be ready just in case. Sounds like no ram I get for my G3 is going to be transferable to 21st century Macs, though.

Heck, they aren't transferable to late 20th Century ones!

PS. My Sawtooth G4's past its fifth year in service, with no real need to ditch it yet, so I know what you mean. First time in 4 years I've had two machines at my place, very weird jumping back and forth between the two.

[JohnnySkeeky]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

If nothing else, I've got an old rev. A iMac and a Blueberry iMac sitting around my office. I think the blueberry has some hardware problems (and I really couldn't be arsed to test it), but I seriously doubt anyone would care if I got rid of one (both) of them.

Dunno if you're anywhere near SF, but I've also got 2 or 3 blueberries sitting around in Boston. Probably a few in San Diego as well, but I'm not sure.

Thanks for the very kind offer. No, unfortunately I'm nowhere near SF; I'm in the hills of Tennessee, actually, but I appreciate the thought very much.

I've been without my computer and, thus, without email or web access for a week; I placed the computer with my computer-savvy nephew (who, as it happens, lost half his brain as an infant due to jaundice but seems none the worse for it); unfortunately, his co-worker is hors de combat and his doubled IT chores haven't permitted him time to investigate, so I've reclaimed my computer just to check my mail. If I discover the cause of my problems I'll definintely share that with all of you; at this point my curiosity outweighs my frustration. I'm likely to be out of contact again soon, though.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.

~John Mayer

[CharlesS]

It doesn't sound like bad RAM to me. Like you said, the odds of all four of your RAM sticks being bad would be quite low, and bad RAM is one of the few things that is pretty sure to get OS X to crash, and you say that the OS itself has been pretty stable.

Here's what I'd do:

1. Create a brand-new user account. Log in as that user, and see if you get the same problems with your apps. If you don't, then something is wrong with your user folder (probably some critical preference files or cache files are corrupted).

2. If you get the same problem under multiple users, I'd check the Console app, which is found in /Applications/Utilities. See if it logs anything when you get one of the apps to crash - sometimes helpful clues show up.

3. If you get a negative on step 2, I'd just do an Archive and Install of the OS. If one of the system frameworks got corrupted, that could easily explain the sort of problems you are having. An Archive and Install should clear out the crud and get you a functional OS.

Good luck...

Charles

[matrix_x]

it sounds like bad RAM to me!!!

[Calli46]

As CharlesS said, it doesn't look like bad ram if you don't get KPs. Once, I got the same problems as you with many apps, even Disk Utility would'nt lauch! And I was sure my ram was good. So I checked around a few forums and got a big CLUE : it might be a bad font. I then tried to isolate my fonts a bunch at a time : I made sure to rename my own font folder (~/library/fonts) with a different name (like "disabled fonts" instead of "fonts", and to rename everyone font folder (/library/Fonts) to something else. After much trial and errors, I found the culprit : a corrupted font that once removed, allowed all my apps to work without crashing.

Hope you solve your problem...
Good luck!

[JohnnySkeeky]

Originally Posted by Calli46

So I checked around a few forums and got a big CLUE : it might be a bad font. I then tried to isolate my fonts a bunch at a time : I made sure to rename my own font folder (~/library/fonts) with a different name (like "disabled fonts" instead of "fonts", and to rename everyone font folder (/library/Fonts) to something else. After much trial and errors, I found the culprit : a corrupted font that once removed, allowed all my apps to work without crashing.

Hope you solve your problem...
Good luck!

Thanks, Calli, et al. (My fondly remembered great grandmother's name was Callie, which I always thought was a pretty cool name. Of course, for all I know it might also be a man's name, so, if you happen to be male, it's STILL a pretty cool name).

Actually, the notion of a corrupted font did occur to me at some point, but I'm not quite clear how to fix it: when I open my Fonts folder there are only a few fonts in there, but the drop-down menues in various programs show dozens. I think Font Book or Suitcase might be activating them, but, when I try to launch one of them... they crash. Maybe I could just sic Font Doctor on my whole hard drive? Or ALL my hard drives? Might take a while...

Another clue: I finally managed to launch eDrive - it needed fixing, too, before I could use it - and my problem apps (including, like you, Disk Utility) all worked fine. Since eDrive is a volume on my main startup HD, I'm assuming that means my problem probably isn't hardware, unless there are somehow bad sectors where my problem apps happen to me. That's over my head and, besides, my repair utilities didn't find any bad sectors with a surface scan. I ran Disk Warrior and Disk Utility (from the CD) and TechTool Pro and repaired directories and file info and stuff, and did an archival reinstall of the system three or four times, all to no avail. So that only leaves a clean install or pursue the font suggestion further. Since I don't have any place to back up my main HD for a clean install I guess I'll focus on the fonts, just as the Drunk in the story looks for his keys where the light is good. Actually, more than that: it sounds like a likely explanation.

If none of that works, maybe I'll think about getting a Mini, since I can thereby get a whole computer for little more than the cost of Tiger and an external HD. Good idea?

Thanks to all.

~John Mayer

[JohnnySkeeky]

Once again, thanks to all for your helpful advice. As always, I've learned a great deal here at MacNN. But it appears to be Calli who has somehow divined the source of my misery; bad fonts. I'm not really sure how that all works, or how Font Book and Suitcase conspire to slyly activate fonts I've never even heard of, but siccing Font Doctor on my main hard drive seems to have revived at least SOME of my crashing applications. Only took a few hours on my main HD. Not being certain how Font Book might - or might not - call up fonts from other hard drives I tried to run it on the external HD with the bulk of my fonts, but I gave up after two days. I guess you CAN have too many fonts after all.

Wanted to be sure to post this development here - though I can't yet be certain I've COMPLETELY solved my problem - to reinforce Calli's advice in case others share this difficulty. Also, if you see unexplained flashes of light like lightning or flashbulbs, go have your eye doctor take a look at your retinas right away. I know that's got nothing to do with the subject at hand, but that knowledge just might save somebody's eye. There oughta be Public Service Announcements about it...

Anyhow, thanx, Calli, and X's and O's right back at ya. Unless Calli DOES happen to be a man's name, in which case I offer you a hearty handshake and a comradely punch on the shoulder.

~Yours truly,
John Mayer

[JohnnySkeeky]

Final update, for anyone still interested in this problem:

Well, it's the better part of a week, and everything's still working, with the exception of Safari. Looks like bad fonts, indeed, were the problem. Thanks again, Calli, and everyone else who made suggestions. I'll figure on doing a clean install, just to be on the safe side, as soon as I can back up.

Strange, though, that Safari hasn't recovered, though, instead of crashing on launch it now freezes on launch, with just an inactive menu bar showing. This is annoying because Safari seems to be the default browser on my G3 and all html links in Eudora try to launch it. Command-Option clicking the URL works only for that one link, and there seems to be no way to change the default browser in OS X's preferences. I gather that option is now within Safari - unintuitively and illogically; almost Windows-like in trying to compel OS X users to the Mac proprietary browser. Of course, since I can't LAUNCH Safari, I must resist. I've discovered a utility called MisFox which, unfortunately, doesn't seem to work in my case. But all that, aside from the bad font(s) that caused it, is a topic, I imagine, for a new thread.

Anyhow, I now know how to spread havoc among Mac users. Forget viruses, Macs laugh at those. Just send out a free font collection with a couple of corrupt ones nestled within and bring the computers of the unwary to their knees.

Thanks one last time. What a great forum! I love you guys.

~John Mayer