Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Feds invade Portland

Feds invade Portland
Thread Tools
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 06:05 PM
 
But ... but Republicans believe in States' Rights. I'm sure Senate Republican leaders will speak up right away.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 06:23 PM
 
Unbadged, unnamed, quasi-military forces grabbing people and shoving them in minivans is not America.
Without accountability, what is to stop any other cosplay combat carl from putting on his camo fatigues and kidnapping anybody?

We rebelled due to the price of tea. What is the price of freedom.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 18, 2020, 04:40 PM
 
From what I gather, they were rounding up “people dressed in all black”, as in the “Defund” movement folks. But it looks like as soon as the abductee asked for a lawyer they were let go...

Still, that’s harassment at best and illegal detention - for those who were released - at worst. Since it’s a hush-hush operation, nobody really knows how many people were shoved into unmarked vehicles by unlabeled, untraceable thugs-in-uniforms. This whole thing needs a HUGE amount of light thrown on it.

Do the thugs doing the abducting know that Orange and his flunkies will throw them under the bus when legal actions occur? Do the thugs’ supervisors know that they’re going to see that same underside of the bus because they ordered them to do it and/or “let them” do it? I wonder how avidly these guys will feel about their “law and order” jobs when it comes down to facing incarceration themselves...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 19, 2020, 09:52 AM
 
When I first read that story, I just thought this is completely bananas. Isn't that what the Second Amendment crowd has always feared would happen? “The feds come in and abuse their power in clear disregard of the Constitution.” It's just that the “heroes” with their guns are the ones who are cheering along.

I'm honestly surprised how quickly things have escalated in the United States. When I first lived in America, I never thought something like this would — could — happen.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 20, 2020, 08:32 AM
 
Remember when the Department of Homeland Security was established and all the citizens' rights guys were pooh-poohed for their ridiculous and paranoid concerns about how the agency's powers could be abused beyond their initially stated and intended purposes?

Yeah, those were the days.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 20, 2020, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Remember when the Department of Homeland Security was established and all the citizens' rights guys were pooh-poohed for their ridiculous and paranoid concerns about how the agency's powers could be abused beyond their initially stated and intended purposes?

Yeah, those were the days.
Can't wait to find out what the NSA is doing these days … 
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
The Final Shortcut
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 20, 2020, 11:56 PM
 
FWIW for the first time in my lifetime, I think most foreigners would not want to move to America.

Take that with as many grains of salt as required. But regardless how many concerns one might have about the USA, the upsides of moving to the most powerful country on earth were always undeniable.

I just don’t think that’s the case any longer.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 02:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
FWIW for the first time in my lifetime, I think most foreigners would not want to move to America.
Not speaking on behalf of all foreigners, but only myself: a huge factor is the US's really, really crappy health care system. Yes, if you have money, you can get the best care you can imagine. But in all other developed countries health care is practically universal and considered a right and there are so many horror stories that the health care system becomes a huge liability — especially if you have a family. Perhaps the complications during my daughter's birth would have impacted us financially in a significant way. And everybody has family members or friends who needed serious medical care, e. g. for mental health reasons or because they had cancer. That's a risk perhaps I could take, but not a risk I want to impose on my family.

It does not help that the immigration system after 9/11 became very hostile. My first visa application in 1997 to the US fit on two, perhaps three pages. In 2007 I applied for the same visa category and it was a huge mess. By a hair's breadth I was almost flagged, which was only noticed by university staff because the immigration officer made two mistakes rather than one. Once you are flagged, you could be effed for life — or at least a very long time.

What is happening now is icing on the cake IMHO.
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Take that with as many grains of salt as required. But regardless how many concerns one might have about the USA, the upsides of moving to the most powerful country on earth were always undeniable.

I just don’t think that’s the case any longer.
Regarding “the most powerful country on earth”, many Americans I talk to or read view this through the lens of a powerful military and through an economy that “could squash all others”. Soft power is completely forgotten. When my PhD adviser started his scientific career, it was almost mandatory to spend some time in the US. Nowadays as long as you have spent time abroad somewhere, that is fine. There is still some inertia, especially when it comes to Chinese students. Their system still views the US as a notch up, even if the actual education in a mid-level American university is nowhere near as good as in many other places in the world.

Trump's election has accelerated many of these trends, but the zenith of American power is long past. Just to be clear, the US will be fine even it is no longer the primus inter pares and “just” another country.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
The Final Shortcut
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 07:39 AM
 
Oh I agree.

But to be clear, if one wants the absolute best—the cream—then I think America is still the place to be.

Americans are justifiably proud of that, but for whatever reason they’ve always had a massive blind spot as to what that’s done to the vast majority of the population. Whether you’re talking education, healthcare, military, baseball, or even the States themselves: there’s a small, elite affluent crust, and then a huge percentage that eat the scraps that fall from their proverbial master’s table.

The greatest trick the American ruling class has ever pulled was convincing a massive segment of its poor and middle class that creating the “greatest X on earth” was both necessary, and would not come at their expense.

Meanwhile, can you imagine that I’m a conservative voter in the rest of the world?
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 08:00 AM
 
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
But to be clear, if one wants the absolute best—the cream—then I think America is still the place to be.
Are you talking about health care specifically or life in general?
With health care it’s definitely not true. If you have money, you can get top-notch treatment in all first-world and even many second-world countries. Before retiring, my mom worked in private hospital (which is still open to the public). Among their customers were athletes, politicians and billionaires from all over the world (e. g. it was one of I think 7 official FIFA hospitals). They even had a high-security wing with bullet-proof glass and all sorts of VIP amenities. In Japan, where I live now, they are top notch in some areas (e. g. pneumonia and infant mortality). I’m sure there are areas where the “best” hospitals are located in the US (I think I heard cancer care was excellent), but I don’t think this is true across the board.

And life for immigrants in general? If you want to emigrate Canada definitely feels like a much better option. You feel welcomed and I have heard from many friends that people are pushing you to actually become Canadian. Israel is really a very interesting place (although obviously not without its problems, you get to live in a pressure cooker). Of course, every country has a special flare and personality that you may be attracted to. I ended up in Japan, which is not overly welcoming to immigrants from a legal perspective, but still a great place to be if you are willing to put in some work. And if it weren’t for the above mentioned issues, I also would consider making the US my home.
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Americans are justifiably proud of that, but for whatever reason they’ve always had a massive blind spot as to what that’s done to the vast majority of the population. Whether you’re talking education, healthcare, military, baseball, or even the States themselves: there’s a small, elite affluent crust, and then a huge percentage that eat the scraps that fall from their proverbial master’s table.
Yeah, and that is a big problem. You see similar problems in other countries, but the problem is definitely much worse in the US, the rift between rich and poor is opening further and further, and normal things that I currently don’t have to worry about is something that could become catastrophic in the US. As “luck” would have it, I saw a preview of what seems to be going on in the US now when I visited Chile last year. Chile’s last dictator Pinochet modeled its social systems after the US with all the predictable outcomes. And I also visited the rich bits of Santiago where billionaires (including their president who is a proper billionaire) live in seclusion. You see much more security and gated living communities. This is not a place where I would want to live.

That’s really one thing I noticed about many American politicians: they are (on average) very rich. Some get rich in or after office, too, but many of them start out rich. Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Mitt Romney (well, all the Romneys). Nancy Pelosy. John Kerry. Mitch McConnel. The Clintons. Obama seems well-off now. And I don’t begrudge all of them, but if you are rich, it really skews your perception of what is and isn’t normal. I’m so glad that German politics is dominated by comparative “amateurs”. Of course, I don’t mean to imply none of them know statecraft or politicking, they do. But there is much less money in it, “just” power.
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
The greatest trick the American ruling class has ever pulled was convincing a massive segment of its poor and middle class that creating the “greatest X on earth” was both necessary, and would not come at their expense.
To be frank, the commonly held ingrained belief/assumption that “America is Number One!!” is I think quite damaging, because in many cases it either isn’t supported by reality or it is entirely subjective. When I hear that, attitude I usually think to myself “Just chill a little.” Very often the criteria for what makes the US #1 are telling. To many it is things like the best fighter jet, the most powerful military, etc. But are those really the best criteria? What I usually never hear mentioned are things like “the happiest” or “the best educated” or “the most egalitarian”. And if the US weren’t Number One, would you love it any less? If the answer is no, what does that say about you?
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Meanwhile, can you imagine that I’m a conservative voter in the rest of the world?
Haha, yes, I definitely can. You Americans were not lucky enough to get universal health care from a proper pinkie communist like Otto von Bismarck!

So many things tend to make you a Democrat these days, belief in things like science and numbers, for instance.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 11:44 AM
 
Bursting my "America is the greatest!" bubble is what preceded my long descent into liberalism.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Democrat cities, who also have female governors, mayors, or police chiefs.
     
The Final Shortcut
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Are you talking about health care specifically or life in general?
With health care it’s definitely not true. If you have money, you can get top-notch treatment in all first-world and even many second-world countries.
I’ll be honest with you—I don’t think that’s completely true. Sure, most first-world countries have top-notch doctors. But if you are filthy rich, then American healthcare is likely the best overall in the world—because you can see one of the world’s best doctors on Friday.

For example: Canadian healthcare is generally regarded as amongst the best in the world. But frankly speaking, it doesn’t hold a candle to American healthcare as long as one has the funds—super rich Canadians who get sick typically end up in the US, because money allows them to bypass the egalitarian system in Canada. It’s similar in many other universal health care systems.

I’ve spent some time in both Canadian and American hospitals. The difference in walk-in care is...astonishing. If a Canadian hospital is a solid 3-star resort, a decent American hospital is like a luxury 5-star vacation.

I think the invoice was about $22,000 USD for an Emergency visit, overnight stay and some allergy treatment, if I recall correctly. Luckily all insured. But you get what the American people pay so much for. (Because, best.)
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 01:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I’ll be honest with you—I don’t think that’s completely true. Sure, most first-world countries have top-notch doctors. But if you are filthy rich, then American healthcare is likely the best overall in the world—because you can see one of the world’s best doctors on Friday.
Ditto in Germany or the Netherlands. Quite a few countries don’t have lengthy cues in their health care systems. In Japan I did not have to wait either, I just go to the doctor/hospital and get treated immediately. Apart from my wife’s pregnancy I haven’t had any experience of serious hospitalization. And even that was a good experience (minus some, hmmm, cultural differences, which did not impact treatment).

And what is important: even poor people in Germany don’t have to wait for regular treatment. In my opinion that is a much better measure than how the richest are treated.
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
For example: Canadian healthcare is generally regarded as amongst the best in the world. But frankly speaking, it doesn’t hold a candle to American healthcare as long as one has the funds—super rich Canadians who get sick typically end up in the US, because money allows them to bypass the egalitarian system in Canada. It’s similar in many other universal health care systems.
I didn’t need to go to the doctor in Canada (apart from the dentist), so my experience is limited. My then-gf had to go to a dermatologist, and we got an appointment the same week — although perhaps I got special treatment as I was a university staffer and we went to a university hospital.
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I think the invoice was about $22,000 USD for an Emergency visit, overnight stay and some allergy treatment, if I recall correctly. Luckily all insured. But you get what the American people pay so much for. (Because, best.)
Are you sure? $22,000 sounds like price gauging to me to be honest. And on average the outcomes of treatments are worse in the US than in most other counties.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 06:45 AM
 
$22,000 for one night in the hospital and some antihistamines is ****ing ridiculous.


If you’d been on life support in isolation ICU, that would make some sense.

But either that’s the least efficient „system“ in the world, or it’s geared towards making people millionaires, not helping people with medical issues.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 07:42 AM
 
The Show Opens in Kansas City

Coming Soon to Albuquerque

Word is the show will be coming to Chicago, perhaps as soon as this weekend.
( Last edited by Thorzdad; Jul 23, 2020 at 09:51 AM. )
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Word is the show will be coming to Chicago, perhaps as soon as this weekend.
This was outlined as very different than Portland. It’s being run by the local US Attorney, who everybody says is a straight shooter. The mayor used to be a federal prosecutor, and they worked together.

The mayor, the Illinois AG, the governor, and both our US senators are on board, at least until something breaks bad.

All five are Democrats.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 01:42 PM
 
It's being billed as less "grrr protesters" and more "this little boy was shot so suddenly we care and are sending fake cops in to solve unsolved homicides and shootings."

Many of these mayors etc are on twitter saying don't come.

It's a campaign event.

In other news, Portland's Mayor stood with the crowd and got tear gassed last night.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
It's a campaign event.
I agree, and even with the best intentions would do little IMO to fix our problems, however I figured a lack of divisiveness was such a unique and unexpected twist it was worth mentioning.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
It's a campaign event.
It’s a very troubling precedent.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 09:27 PM
 
A lawyer "LegalEagle" on YouTube gave a detailed discussion of what's happening in Portland. It's rather long at 24 minutes, but gives an excellent analysis.

Short answer: the federal intervention isn't going well on the ground, and it's got no useful legal cover. They're attempting to enforce state laws outside of federal property. But Oregon state law only allows authorized visiting agents to do so, and such agents have to promptly turn arrestees over to an Oregon judge or magistrate. None of that is happening, and unidentified officers is yet another violation of Oregon law.

     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 09:33 PM
 
I find it weird that people clad in military garb who do not clearly belong to any discernible law enforcement agency have any sort of jurisdiction whatsoever.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2020, 09:55 PM
 
Until an opposing authority stops them, they have whatever jurisdiction they claim.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 05:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
To be frank, the commonly held ingrained belief/assumption that “America is Number One!!” is I think quite damaging, because in many cases it either isn’t supported by reality or it is entirely subjective. When I hear that, attitude I usually think to myself “Just chill a little.” Very often the criteria for what makes the US #1 are telling. To many it is things like the best fighter jet, the most powerful military, etc. But are those really the best criteria? What I usually never hear mentioned are things like “the happiest” or “the best educated” or “the most egalitarian”. And if the US weren’t Number One, would you love it any less? If the answer is no, what does that say about you?
I am reminded of this clip:




Keep seeing this thread title and somehow "invade Portland" seems very close to "invade Poland."
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 05:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
A lawyer "LegalEagle" on YouTube gave a detailed discussion of what's happening in Portland. It's rather long at 24 minutes, but gives an excellent analysis.

Short answer: the federal intervention isn't going well on the ground, and it's got no useful legal cover. They're attempting to enforce state laws outside of federal property. But Oregon state law only allows authorized visiting agents to do so, and such agents have to promptly turn arrestees over to an Oregon judge or magistrate. None of that is happening, and unidentified officers is yet another violation of Oregon law.

Here’s Lawfare’s take for the video impaired.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-hec...doing-portland

They agree that if they’re trying to enforce state law they run into the problems mentioned above, but if it’s federal, they have a lot more leeway, which includes not identifying themselves.

They also note the proper agency to deal with what’s accused (which I understand to be torching a federal court building) is the U.S. Marshalls, but Customs gets a pass because it’s within range of a border.
     
Doc HM
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 09:41 AM
 
From the outside it looks like your constitution is looking like so much used toilet paper.
Only a few years ago ANY of this would have seemed inconceivable. Now for most Americans it seems broadly just "meh"

You need to get your outrage on or your elections in November seem be an instruction manual to Putin on how to really rig a democratic process.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
From the outside it looks like your constitution is looking like so much used toilet paper.
Only a few years ago ANY of this would have seemed inconceivable. Now for most Americans it seems broadly just "meh"
Thing is, the US has been like the frog in the pot while the heat was slowly turned up. There have been clues that this crap was coming for the past 40+ years or so, if one was paying attention. You can more-or-less draw a direct line from today back to the simultaneous rise of Gingrich and conservative talk radio, and the beginning of the insane "no true conservative" death spiral of the republican party, pushing conservatives ever further to the far, far, right.

This has all been conceivable for a very long time. It just happened quicker than anyone might have feared.
     
el chupacabra
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
With health care it’s definitely not true. If you have money, you can get top-notch treatment in all first-world and even many second-world countries. Before retiring, my mom worked in private hospital (which is still open to the public). Among their customers were athletes, politicians and billionaires from all over the world (e. g. it was one of I think 7 official FIFA hospitals). They even had a high-security wing with bullet-proof glass and all sorts of VIP amenities. In Japan, where I live now, they are top notch in some areas (e. g. pneumonia and infant mortality). I’m sure there are areas where the “best” hospitals are located in the US (I think I heard cancer care was excellent), but I don’t think this is true across the board.
Why do so many Europeans come to the US for healthcare, for example visiting the Mayo Clinic? I would think that if European med care was better or even just equal, not a single European would visit US for healthcare.

And life for immigrants in general? If you want to emigrate Canada definitely feels like a much better option. You feel welcomed and I have heard from many friends that people are pushing you to actually become Canadian.
Many immigrants use Canada as a stepping stone to get into the US. Canada has its own brand of nationalism /xenophobia but they also have a lot of extra space, & they know many immigrants are just passing through to US. The US is overpopulated so people are increasingly at each others throats. We didnt ask people to migrate to this capitalist dystopia of starving poor people & uneducated trailer-park confederate flag lynching rednecks, so idunno why they wanna come to such a racist hell hole so bad.

the rift between rich and poor is opening further and further, and normal things that I currently don’t have to worry about is something that could become catastrophic in the US. As “luck” would have it, I saw a preview of what seems to be going on in the US now when I visited Chile last year. Chile’s last dictator Pinochet modeled its social systems after the US with all the predictable outcomes. And I also visited the rich bits of Santiago where billionaires (including their president who is a proper billionaire) live in seclusion. You see much more security and gated living communities.
The wealth disparity in US is caused entirely by bailouts & mountains of regulations on small businesses. What people dont realize is, corporations lobby our government to increase regulations on themselves. In return these regulations apply to small business too adding to the increasing burden of running small businesses. And I dont see Americans protesting inflation caused by bailouts much. Allowing companies to fail may kill some jobs but it's hitting the reset button by allowing billionaires to take a hugely disproportionate hit compared to the poor/middle-class as well as allowing small business to rise up & fill the niche of the former big corporations.
Protesting the 11 or so blacks accidentally killed by police this year out of millions & millions of people is really misguided. The total number of all people killed by police per year is only 1300. Originally police were given guns not just to protect themselves but to stop perpetrators from running away. Why should police be expected to chase down & gently wrestle every criminal, possibly being lead to dangerous alleys just 'cause the criminals think he shouldnt shoot unless his life is threatened? This idea that police shouldnt shoot unless life in danger is a new concept, & in fact police black killings have been going down each decade, so the whole movement is based on a fallacy. This is just more liberals standing up for criminal rights to push their socialist agenda. Just like with voter ID. Liberal governments require an ID for every little thing... except voting.... Cant even fix an AC... or run a lemonade stand without a licensed ID & permit...

That’s really one thing I noticed about many American politicians: they are (on average) very rich. Some get rich in or after office, too, but many of them start out rich. Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Mitt Romney (well, all the Romneys). Nancy Pelosy. John Kerry. Mitch McConnel. The Clintons. Obama seems well-off now. And I don’t begrudge all of them, but if you are rich, it really skews your perception of what is and isn’t normal. I’m so glad that German politics is dominated by comparative “amateurs”.
American politicians are reflections of the American people. It's a reflection of how easy our lives have become due to too much riches to the point where our middle class doesnt even need to be educated to vote or survive or anything. We basically just vote for whichever demagogue offers us the most free muney.

...the commonly held belief that “America is Number One!!” is quite damaging, because in many cases it either isn’t supported by reality or it's entirely subjective.......... Often the criteria for what makes the US #1 are telling. To many it's things like the best fighter jet, the most powerful military, etc. But are those really the best criteria? What I usually never hear mentioned are things like “the happiest” or “the best educated” or “the most egalitarian”.
American being #1... It's an old idea from the post WW2 era when the US actually was measurably further ahead of every nation - assuming you measure "success" by wealth & ease of life... Even to this day the US has the wealthiest middle class in the world, & since all leftists ever talk about is 'money' in regard to their own solutions to happiness, I'd assume thats their own benchmark for success.

If you want to do a 1 to 1 comparison with the un-united nationalist confederacy of Europe we can. Overall Europeans have less buying power than Americans while utilizing more outsourced slavery than the US by far. How Europe treats Africa with Virunga, Tanzania, kidnapped child slaves, & the whole bit, is straight up feudalistic. The US subsidizes European military, allowing Europe to put more money to social programs. Despite Europe having ~2.5 x the population of US, & more educated, civilized people, European economy still cant match the GDP or quantity of product & science breakthroughs of the US. On Healthcare, correct me if Im wrong, dont Europeans only need 6 years of college to be a doctor compared with the US's 12-16 yrs? Isnt there considered to be a big problem with fly-by-night unlicensed Russian doctors operating our of vans in Germany despite Germany not having wait times for the poor? Wouldnt it be reasonable to assume if Americans simply directed their attention to breaking up the over regulated lobbying cartel of a hospital system in the US rather than just scream "free free free", our prices would drop considerably?

Im not proud of the US's accomplishments. By luck, the US got a head start after WW2, then used that head start to rebuild Europe & use Europe as its lapdog going forward in its quest in creating the empire of "western civilization". Personally if I had to pick some #1 region to live outside the US, it wouldnt be another consumerist moral-high-ground exploitative region like Europe or US. It would be Ecuador, Guatemala, Colombia, Belize, or Brazil.

One could argue that monetarily poorer people with simpler happier cultures are more successful. (See the-comfortable-life-is-killing-you ). But how often do you hear materialistic liberals accuse farming, for example, as being for stupid, boring, poor people? It wasnt too many decades ago when the average American couldnt afford to buy all their food from a store, they had to supplement with their garden or wild caught invasive species.

You're right about #1 being subjective; for example your criteria isnt what I'd use, other than happiness, but even that cant be accurately measured without mind reading powers. My ideal society is one of less egalitarianism. Science doesn't back the idea that we're all equal, so why pretend to be equal? These politically correct platitudes only distances us further from reality & solutions to our problems. For example, when we try to push people to become college educated into office jobs when they're better suited as miners, assembly-line workers, or garbage sorters, in a world where we 'need' garbage sorters & miners, we are encouraging an unnatural situation on those people, which will backfire on the whole of society. This is sorta the situation we're in now where Europe & the US can no longer support their wealthy middle-class lifestyle without outsourced slavery in all the jobs their spoiled populace "no longer wuuants to work". Capitalism is the Darwinism that uses the hard laws of nature to perfectly refine people where they're suppose to be & for the pay they're suppose to get based on their TRUE education & TRUE value to society as measured by nature.

How do you measure "education"? Is someone who's been college educated with book-loads of fictional science & fictional history in Gender Studies/Race Relations considered more "educated" than a handyman who has no degree but who society values enough that they're actually willing to pay for what he knows? Lawn mower men have more value than many of these college "educated" people these days, but classist liberals see it oppositely.
You arent special. You dont have value just because you were born. You are a net drain on the planet. Respect must be earned & your value must be proven. Endangered species are special, & their survival should take priority over your comfort.
     
el chupacabra
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 05:42 PM
 
Conservatives have been warning us since DHS inception (and before) about the consequences of big centralized (fascist) government. Big government solutions come with big fascist government police stateism. For ages mainstream republicans & democrats were too leftist to see the seeds of the current situation being sowed. They used such logic as "As long as I dont do anything wrong I have nothing to worry about right?...". It's too late to fix now. They got their big government solutions, now they get to deal with them... The white rioters think they're clever using BLM as their token black movement to attach to their socialist agenda. The rioters are just useful idiots by the wealthy ruling establishment. The rioters dont see the full picture of whats happening & have no idea of a solution, other than more bigger centralized socialist government.

10 years ago a paper was written based on interviews of Clinton super pac employees. They said they would divide america into groups based on varius discrimations, starting with genders, then race. This chaos was all planned & predictable. The thing that went wrong was it was suppose to happen before 2016 elections to put Democrats in power. The 20 page paper has since been scrubbed from the net by the FSM.

That said, whats going on in Portland is still kid stuff at this point. It's not Hong Kong yet. At the end of the day these spoiled kids can put an end to this by simply going back home to nurturing fantasies of killing people on their 1st person shooter games.

People have lost their damn minds. If I was black & a crying white guiltster came up to me wanting to wash my feet I'd kick em in the face for being a cheese dick. What kinda person lets someone wash their feet?
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Why do so many Europeans come to the US for healthcare, for example visiting the Mayo Clinic? I would think that if European med care was better or even just equal, not a single European would visit US for healthcare.
That’s not the counterposition.
For specialized needs, there are singular clinics like the Mayo clinic. The hospital my mom worked at was similarly singular, it counted heads of states and famous athletes amongst its patients. Now the thing is that this hospital was open to everyone in Germany as well, which means that unless you want a better room or better food it is completely free. Now you could point to clinics like St. Jude’s in the US that is free for some patients as well, but in Germany this is true of every hospital for every person, no matter how rich or poor you are. There is no scenario where my insurance (or myself) were charged $22k for a single day of hospitalization due to an allergic reaction.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Many immigrants use Canada as a stepping stone to get into the US. Canada has its own brand of nationalism /xenophobia but they also have a lot of extra space, & they know many immigrants are just passing through to US.
That’s a myth rather than a reality, especially the way a lot of immigrants are treated by US customs. It is true that every country has its racists, but Canada is in my experience the only country where citizens and the administration alike actively motivate people to submit their paperwork to become a citizen. For me personally, if I had spent 2 years in the US rather than Canada, I am quite certain I would not be married just because of differences in immigration law. Canada’s immigration law treats common law spouses the same as married couples, which is why my then-gf and now wife got a visa. It’s even worse if you are a foreigner married to an American, because then you have to get a green card. A former colleague of mine had to go through this nightmare, which meant his wife had to live with her parents for over a year while he was by himself in the US. And she is highly educated and a citizen of a very rich country (Japan). When you are from a poor country, you can’t even have layover stops in the US without a visa.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The US is overpopulated so people are increasingly at each others throats.
The US’s population density is very low compared to most other first-world countries. Canada’s is lower, but similar to Canada you have patches of high population density with a lot of nothing in between.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The wealth disparity in US is caused entirely by bailouts & mountains of regulations on small businesses. What people dont realize is, corporations lobby our government to increase regulations on themselves.
The more sweeping the claim, the more likely it is you are wrong. Cutting regulations won’t help the US in this regard at all. Other countries have mitigated the trends by a more robust social welfare system. The most prosperous time in the US was after WW2, where taxes were really high and (white) people benefitted from lots of social programs that allowed them to go to top universities for (almost) free or buy homes for the first time.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
American being #1... It's an old idea from the post WW2 era when the US actually was measurably further ahead of every nation - assuming you measure "success" by wealth & ease of life... Even to this day the US has the wealthiest middle class in the world, & since all leftists ever talk about is 'money' in regard to their own solutions to happiness, I'd assume thats their own benchmark for success.
After WW2 the US had sky-high taxes and lots of social programs (such as the GI bill) — at least for white people. The US was also ahead because its cities hadn’t been touch by war. And also because it was on the right side of history. Rather than simply execute Nazis and Japanese fascists, the US insisted on proper trials, for example. This really left an impression in the world, yes. But that era is long gone and too many atrocities have happened with the US’s involvement since, and other countries still have to deal with the fallout until today (Chile comes to mind).
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
On Healthcare, correct me if Im wrong, dont Europeans only need 6 years of college to be a doctor compared with the US's 12-16 yrs?
That’s wrong. The details depends on the country and/or on the state inside each country. But you spend roughly 6 years at university and then another 4-6 to specialize. In Germany you also don’t need any pre-med classes, because we have different levels of high school and only if you graduate from the highest level of high school are you admitted to university to study medicine. (And the level really is different.)
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Isnt there considered to be a big problem with fly-by-night unlicensed Russian doctors operating our of vans in Germany despite Germany not having wait times for the poor?
Where do you take these FUD conspiracies from? There are no unlicensed Russian doctors roaming Germany to serve the poor. It wouldn’t even make any financial sense for them to do that.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Wouldnt it be reasonable to assume if Americans simply directed their attention to breaking up the over regulated lobbying cartel of a hospital system in the US rather than just scream "free free free", our prices would drop considerably?
No. There are plenty of different health care systems out there that show how the US could remodel its own, ranging from a regulated market of private insurance companies like you do in Germany or Switzerland to something like the NHS. Regulation is necessary, because health care isn’t a market where you have lots of competition — similar to phone and power companies. When you have a heart attack, you don’t go hospital shopping and opt for the one with the best package. Nor is that even an option if you live in a rural area.

There is too much friction in the US system, too many intermediaries want to make a profit, which just ends up making health care more expensive — and not even better. The US pays 50 % (as a share of GDP) for health care than France, but with worse outcomes. If you pay for a Mercedes, you should at least get a Mercedes, and not a rusty Cadillac with a wallowy suspension and an anemic engine. I got a taste for this useless bureaucracy living in Japan: my daughter is (and for some arcane reason had to be) insured under my name. So when she was born, the nurses and some poor bureaucrats had to literally separate which sponge and which medical procedure was covered by my wife’s insurance and which was covered by mine. That added zero to better health outcomes and is not worth keeping. Similarly, from what I understand, that’s one of the big problems of the US, albeit on a much, much larger scale.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Im not proud of the US's accomplishments. By luck, the US got a head start after WW2, then used that head start to rebuild Europe & use Europe as its lapdog going forward in its quest in creating the empire of "western civilization". Personally if I had to pick some #1 region to live outside the US, it wouldnt be another consumerist moral-high-ground exploitative region like Europe or US. It would be Ecuador, Guatemala, Colombia, Belize, or Brazil.
What happened after WW2 in the US wasn’t luck, it was a combination of good politics and a healthy combination of a strong society, which manifested itself in a healthy state that lifted (white) citizens and companies in equal measure.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
How do you measure "education"? Is someone who's been college educated with book-loads of fictional science & fictional history in Gender Studies/Race Relations considered more "educated" than a handyman who has no degree but who society values enough that they're actually willing to pay for what he knows? Lawn mower men have more value than many of these college "educated" people these days, but classist liberals see it oppositely.
Why do you equate educated with college educated?
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Conservatives have been warning us since DHS inception (and before) about the consequences of big centralized (fascist) government.
The DHS was created by conservatives (Bush 2 and the Republican controlled Congress) and it was conservatives that dismissed criticisms that the DHS was detrimental for individual liberties.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The US’s population density is very low compared to most other first-world countries. Canada’s is lower, but similar to Canada you have patches of high population density with a lot of nothing in between.
Conservatives don't typically mean population density when they say overpopulated. They typically mean there isn't enough money/resources to go around.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
it was on the right side of history. Rather than simply execute Nazis and Japanese fascists, the US insisted on proper trials, for example.
Are we sure that was because it was the right thing to do? Not because plenty of influential Americans sympathised with the Nazi philosophy?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 24, 2020, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Conservatives don't typically mean population density when they say overpopulated. They typically mean there isn't enough money/resources to go around.
Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that nuance. But even then, wouldn’t you still have the distinction between (on average) rich cities and poor rural parts?
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Are we sure that was because it was the right thing to do? Not because plenty of influential Americans sympathised with the Nazi philosophy?
Oh yeah, absolutely. Because it showed the superiority of the US political system rather than the US itself. That left a huge impression in Germany in particular and Europe at large. The association is that the US won, because it had a better political system, not just because it was a stronger country. Ditto for Japan to a lesser degree. Japanese soldiers, for example, couldn’t believe their eyes when they found out government propaganda was all wrong: as POWs they were treated humanely, got food and so forth.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 25, 2020, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that nuance. But even then, wouldn’t you still have the distinction between (on average) rich cities and poor rural parts?
Its not rooted in logic or facts. Its just standard issue greed and selfishness.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 25, 2020, 08:12 AM
 
I always assumed it to mean (in an American context) cities are overpopulated.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 25, 2020, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
What kinda person lets someone wash their feet?
Jesus' disciples?
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 25, 2020, 11:43 AM
 
Theres an Islamic ritual around washing feet if I recall...
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Shortcut
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 25, 2020, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The wealth disparity in US is caused entirely by bailouts & mountains of regulations on small businesses. What people dont realize is, corporations lobby our government to increase regulations on themselves.
Lol. This entire rambling pile of a steaming nonsense post is epic and, in and of itself, beautifully symbolic of where US politics has now gone—to a place devoid of reality, where one’s own bubble of partially-made-up “facts” is the only narrative.

Of course, by identifying that you’re the actual problem here, I’m only reinforcing your belief that you’re the true maverick—one of the few who can see what is Really Happening. And so we go.

But anyway: the idea that the real problem here is large corporations running around calling for more red tape on themselves is just hilarious.

Even to this day the US has the wealthiest middle class in the world
I’m not sure this has been true for a decade or so....but anyway, arguing that point will get us nowhere
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 27, 2020, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
We didnt ask people to migrate to this capitalist dystopia of starving poor people & uneducated trailer-park confederate flag lynching rednecks, so idunno why they wanna come to such a racist hell hole so bad.
lol

The wealth disparity in US is caused entirely by bailouts & mountains of regulations on small businesses.
lol

What people dont realize is, corporations lobby our government to increase regulations on themselves.
LOL

blacks accidentally killed by police this year
no longer lol

Originally police were given guns not just to protect themselves but to stop perpetrators from running away.
You can say it - slaves. The origins of modern police in former slave states track directly from slave patrols. They had guns and dogs to stop slaves from running away.

This idea that police shouldnt shoot unless life in danger is a new concept
"This idea that every single person is innocent until proven guilty is a new concept. The police should act as judge, jury, and executioner on any person they deem to dangerous to let run free." This could never go and has never gone poorly.

I'm pretty sure that's straight from the constitution, so good job on that one.

in fact police black killings have been going down each decade
Sorry, who is saying that police killing black people is new? Police have been murdering black people for centuries. Only now that every single person has an HD camera in their pocket at all times is this fact becoming known to white people that live in a bubble where the police exist to protect and serve the common good. (lol)


This is just more liberals standing up for criminal rights to push their socialist agenda.
lol

On Healthcare, correct me if Im wrong, dont Europeans only need 6 years of college to be a doctor compared with the US's 12-16 yrs?
lol

But how often do you hear materialistic liberals accuse farming, for example, as being for stupid, boring, poor people?
Never? But you don't actually engage with liberals, you're fed scary words created with the agenda of making you terrified of the "other."

Lawn mower men have more value than many of these college "educated" people these days, but classist liberals see it oppositely.
lol

10/10 masterful manifesto.
     
el chupacabra
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 28, 2020, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
There is no scenario where my insurance (or myself) were charged $22k for a single day of hospitalization due to an allergic reaction.
The $22k for a single visit, would be an emergency visit. It's that high because so many people dont pay their bill, so it gets passed on to the people who are willing to pay the bill, that's collectivism. The fact we use middlemen insurance to pay our bills means we dont care what the hospital charges the insurance because we're so stupid we assume the insurance just eats it. The insurance companies respond by raising premium payments on everyone the next year - the option to not use insurance has been difficult even before the ACA, it's set up so you pay for it whether you use it or not. This is part of the reason the insurance concept is inherently flawed. We should be using a straight pay as you go system or payment plans for truly large bills, this would drive prices down. None the less, these large ER bills are negotiable after the fact. The people who dont pay their share have figured that out. People who use their insurance card as a buffet card dont know this & dont have any reason to care what the insurance pays.

The more sweeping the claim, the more likely it is you are wrong.
Which claim is sweeping? Bailouts for corporations devalue the dollar for everyone, but offset that devaluation for whoever receives the biggest disproportionate amount of the bailout. In this case the biggest corporations always get the lions share of bailouts. This isnt a republican thing. Before this year Obama & the dems gave more free money to big corps than any political team in history, and yet convinced dems they were hard on corporations because they raised taxes. My statement on the biggest corporations lobbying for more regulations isnt my idea, it's well understood to be true in the business & political world. The only Americans who deny this tend to be of the extreme leftist kind who collect W2's while living in a bubble. - Not the best example, but the 1st that comes to mind, Netflix supports Net Neutrality, & is against Net Neutrality, depending on the paradigm of how it changes the playing-field of their competition vs themselves, obviously they want regulation to provide as much a barrier to their potential competition as possible. Our medical hospitals lobby government for regulation to prevent competition, usually they target the med school system as a bottleneck.
When I co-owned a small refining company in the past, the regulations of the local government directly & intentionally were opposite the regulations of the state so that they could really cash in on permit fees. The cost of my permits was more than the cost of building the entire plant plus a year of salary for my lead engineer. If I wanted to simply move a 6000 gallon tank across the room that was an $8k permit. Meanwhile large refining plants are legally allowed to dump a certain small amount of industrial chemicals right into the bay. Despite how low some businesses seem to pay in their "income tax" bracket, we more than pay for our share into the government. There hasnt been a year (since I was young) where I paid less than 50% of my income to the government through a plethora of various taxes & fees the average middle-class American has never heard about.

Cutting regulations won’t help the US in this regard at all. Other countries have mitigated the trends by a more robust social welfare system.
I dont see much evidence of other countries getting better. They seem to be getting poorer, & to keep things as good as they are they are mitigating by finding new ways to exploit people over seas. Not a real solution...

The most prosperous time in the US was after WW2, where taxes were really high and (white) people benefitted from lots of social programs that allowed them to go to top universities for (almost) free or buy homes for the first time.
After WW2 the US had sky-high taxes and lots of social programs (such as the GI bill) — at least for white people. The US was also ahead because its cities hadn’t been touch by war. And also because it was on the right side of history. Rather than simply execute Nazis and Japanese fascists, the US insisted on proper trials, for example. This really left an impression in the world, yes. But that era is long gone and too many atrocities have happened with the US’s involvement since, and other countries still have to deal with the fallout until today (Chile comes to mind).
The new liberal narrative in the US is that the tax rate for big companies was 50-90% or some such. All the US has really done is restructure & rename the various taxes. If you just look at what our government calls "income tax bracket" you wont have the whole picture. This article is a very watered down version but kinda gets to the idea. Taxes on the Rich Were Not That Much Higher in the 1950s

Black people benefited too after the war. They were rising up, integrating in white neighborhoods & joining the middle class. This has happened multiple times throughout our history though in various locations, only to have events that set blacks back again. The 1950's outsourcing phase hit blacks the hardest. If you ever feel interested check out the history of South Central Los Angeles. As blacks became more disconnected to whites due to outsourcing, the racist liberals of liberal Los Angeles created policy to send blacks to a ghetto called South Central. The liberals of California didnt like having to see black people, so often when one would venture out of their neighborhood they'd call the police to beat or shoot the person. This got so out of hand that it lead to the creation of the most famous gangs in the western hemisphere. But what did liberals ultimately blame decades later? They blamed country folk. Country folk who were living peacefully with blacks for a hundred years. Blacks who went through the classic cowboy era with them, who still own the ranches they inherited from the past, those 1 in 10 blacks who arent brain washed to vote liberal. Of course liberals wouldnt know there were a lot of black cowboys & ranchers, 'cause people get such education from western movies, which were produced & white washed in racist liberal California. These current race riots are going to set race relations back again... All because the democrats' only strategy to win was to break everyone into persecuted groups and sell them solutions to victimhood.

As for post WW2 being the most prosperous. Way fewer proportion of people had college degrees than today, so the access to education cant be that hard. You can get a decent college education in the US for less than $20k as long as youre not trying to attend your favorite elite party school.

The smallest track home you can legally buy in most the US today is usually 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 2 dining rooms, 2 car garage & is about 1600 or more square feet (big government bans the new would-be trend of tiny homes in zoned areas/suburbs). The typical middle class house in post WW2 was 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, 1 dining room, 1 car garage, 800-1500 square ft.. A car back then cost $50k in today's buying power & people had to learn to fix it themselves cause most couldnt afford the mechanic every time it broke. There's no question middle class Americans are WAY richer than in post WW2 when comparing their actual conveniences/ possessions in life. The crime rate was insane in the 50's because poverty wasnt just something reserved for the mentally ill. There were so many poor people that there were entire industries based on commodity theft. People used to watch their backs every time they visited a city center since armed muggings & murders were so common. Ask some old New Yorkers how many times they were mugged in the 50's. Our big cities used to be like Sao Paulo. The welfare state was definitely not bigger than it is now. That is a false liberal narrative.
The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most Nations of Europe

That’s wrong. The details depends on the country and/or on the state inside each country. But you spend roughly 6 years at university and then another 4-6 to specialize. In Germany you also don’t need any pre-med classes, because we have different levels of high school and only if you graduate from the highest level of high school are you admitted to university to study medicine. (And the level really is different.)
Studying Medicine in Europe
"Studies usually last six to seven years in Europe, while North American medical schools go for about four years. However, medical schools in Europe do not require undergraduate degrees, which adds another three to four years to the process in the U.S., making it eight to 10 years of school in actuality. In other words, in Europe, one could begin to study medicine straight out of high school. Furthermore, as the number of North American students grows, European schools have begun to offer shorter programs for those with an undergraduate degree; these programs last four years (e.g. Poznań University of Medical Sciences in Poland).
The average cost of a medical degree in the US is $140-240,000 over four years. In Europe, it is almost a third of that, with the average spanning between $60-90,000 over six years."

Masters Portal
Medical Schools in Europe
France looks like 11 yrs post high school education according to above article. Germany it looks like a 'total' of 6 yrs post high school education, Im not finding anything about Germany requiring 7 yrs specialty training; either way it's still less of a bottle neck than in the US. In the US we have 4 yrs undergrad degree (which is pretty worthless for being a dr), then 4 yrs med school degree then 3-7 years specialty training. And we deny 30,000 perfectly qualified applicants per yr to ensure doctors are in short supply.

We have a channel here called cspan where you can watch some of the debates where it's come up time to time over the past 20 yrs concerning medical industry's lobbying to bottle neck med schools with highly regulated time cost & funding restrictions in order to keep their cartel going. A nurse could handle most people's problems in the US, but nurse practitioning has been regulated into extreme expense. All medical procedures & drugs have a fixed prenegotiated prices. But that fixed price is different with each insurance company & generally higher for uninsured individuals, discouraging people from not using insurance. Few people know these costs even for prescheduled procedures because no one cares as long as they have their buffet card. Trump tried to take 1 small step in the right direction by telling pharmaceuticals they had to list the price of drugs on TV adds. You'd think liberals would be on board with this considering how much they rail against big pharma, but since Trump did it, they hated it, & a liberal judge blocked it. Point is there is very obvious reasons why our prices are high & half the country wont hear it. All they want to talk about is "free" & "socialism". Any attempt to try 1 small regulated capitalist solution is met with fight. They falsely believe our system is capitalist despite the fact that capitalism requires you to have easy negotiating power. Now while you can negotiate your prices down a bit, especially with ER visits, you're competing in an industry where most people dont even try, & the industry takes advantage of that. Americans should have the right to keep the full $7000/yr or more their employer spends on insurance so they can do their own negotiating bypassing the insurance company, but thats almost never an option.

Congress Didn’t Act on Prescription Drug Prices. So President Trump Did.
And this Just in! God bless Amagaca

There are plenty of different health care systems out there that show how the US could remodel its own, ranging from a regulated market of private insurance companies like you do in Germany or Switzerland to something like the NHS. Regulation is necessary, because health care isn’t a market where you have lots of competition — similar to phone and power companies. When you have a heart attack, you don’t go hospital shopping and opt for the one with the best package. Nor is that even an option if you live in a rural area.
There is too much friction in the US system, too many intermediaries want to make a profit, which just ends up making health care more expensive — and not even better.
In order to change our system our people would have to be smarter than just grunting "free stuff free stuff!". Thats what liberalism has devolved into as the children of upper middle income parents who spoiled them. Our government does everything it can to regulate against us taking healthcare responsibility into our own hands by making it so inconvenient. Thats whats so infuriating - there doesnt need to be all these middlemen taking our money & deciding how much theyre willing to give back to us when we're sick. None of this is unpredictable, everyone's going to get sick, diseased, disabled, in accidents etc., so let us plan for it ourselves. The majority of medical visits arent emergency so procedure prices should be posted & be the same for everyone. That way people can price shop for planned procedures. A rule could be made disallowing hospitals to charge more than 100% over the normal procedure cost for emergency visits. As it stands emergency visits cost 500-1000% more for the same procedure if scheduled.

What happened after WW2 in the US wasn’t luck, it was a combination of good politics and a healthy combination of a strong society, which manifested itself in a healthy state that lifted (white) citizens and companies in equal measure.
Reminiscing of when America was great... Acquiring all Britain's latest technology to Bring the US up to date & propel it forward... Setting up central banks around the world to favor the US in all transactions... Sowing the seeds of terrorism around the world using torture & public executions on their political enemies... Establishing pro US propaganda education as part of the rebuilding in Germany/Japan etc.. Maybe it's good politics depending on how you look at it. I guess what people dont know gets perceived as selfless nobility. There's no such thing as nobility in the human race.

Why do you equate educated with college educated?
I dont. But liberals do. Particularly the ones on this forum. Thats why they're always disparaging republican voters' tendency to have less college degrees.
     
el chupacabra
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 28, 2020, 01:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Lol. This entire rambling pile of a steaming nonsense post is epic and, in and of itself, beautifully symbolic of where US politics has now gone—to a place devoid of reality, where one’s own bubble of partially-made-up “facts” is the only narrative.

Of course, by identifying that you’re the actual problem here, I’m only reinforcing your belief that you’re the true maverick—one of the few who can see what is Really Happening. And so we go.

But anyway: the idea that the real problem here is large corporations running around calling for more red tape on themselves is just hilarious.
Actually, I judge my "rightness" by my ability to predict outcomes based on my understanding of reality. Someone who is typically right can use their understanding of reality to accurately predict outcomes of various situations then judge the correct actions which cause the desirable outcome for whatever they're trying to achieve. I judge all people this way. For example, modern liberals rampaging around attacking statues for what the statue did hundreds of years ago, is an example of years of growing anger as a result of very few of their actions working out for them. Their actions dont work out for them cuz theyre disconnected from reality. Years of misunderstandings has caused them to become very bitter people. There are people in 3rd world countries who are happier than American liberals who are screaming about how hard it is to survive in this US dictatorship without universal basic incomes, thought police, & marxism this & that... Your lack of disproportionate disgust for liberals burning the country down, looting stores, freeing violent prisoners... compared to your disgust for conservatism, is beautifully symbolic of where politics has gone.

Big corporations can easily afford red tape, at least the kind they're lobbying for... They know small startups cant afford it as well, it's pretty simple.
     
el chupacabra
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 28, 2020, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Sorry, who is saying that police killing black people is new? Police have been murdering black people for centuries. Only now that every single person has an HD camera in their pocket at all times is this fact becoming known to white people that live in a bubble where the police exist to protect and serve the common good. (lol)
Police have been killing everyone for centuries. Like this white guy here. Basically the cant breath video all over again.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c-E_i8Q5G0
One of the cons of living in an overpopulated place in an era of information overload is videos cant be marketed to make extremely rare events seem common while also making them seem personal.

If youre going to have a successful movement intended to convince racist white people, it's best to attach it to something they can relate to as well. Attach it to another cause they care about. Im a political activist, it works. On one hand liberals know it works as they have used BLM to attach their rebranded socialist movement. Rampaging around burning businesses isnt convincing who you want to convince, only reinforcing their beliefs. This movement is walking lockstep in Mao's campaign footsteps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdpIIiBe7Wc

In this video, one of the BLM founders says straight, it's a Marxist movement. In other videos she claims BLM provides teachings in Marxism. This isnt about black lives. This is about socialism since the Bernie strategy failed. How many blacks does the average portlander know?

Never? But you don't actually engage with liberals, you're fed scary words created with the agenda of making you terrified of the "other."
.
Never? It's all over this forum!
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 28, 2020, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Police have been killing everyone for centuries. Like this white guy here. Basically the cant breath video all over again.
You...know how statistics work, right?
     
Doc HM
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UKland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 29, 2020, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The $22k for a single visit, would be an emergency visit. It's that high because so many people dont pay their bill, so it gets passed on to the people who are willing to pay the bill, that's collectivism.
er, no. Collectivism would be where EVERYONE pays a little and EVERYONE can access the care as and when they need it. What you are describing is more accurately described as broken.

A system designed almost entirely to ensure that the only people who don't loose out are the medicare insurance companies.

You can fix that if you want to.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 29, 2020, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Studying Medicine in Europe
"Studies usually last six to seven years in Europe, while North American medical schools go for about four years. However, medical schools in Europe do not require undergraduate degrees, which adds another three to four years to the process in the U.S., making it eight to 10 years of school in actuality. In other words, in Europe, one could begin to study medicine straight out of high school. Furthermore, as the number of North American students grows, European schools have begun to offer shorter programs for those with an undergraduate degree; these programs last four years (e.g. Poznań University of Medical Sciences in Poland).
The average cost of a medical degree in the US is $140-240,000 over four years. In Europe, it is almost a third of that, with the average spanning between $60-90,000 over six years."
This ignores differences in the high school system and specialization. Germany has several types of high school and only if you graduate from one type of high school are you allowed to study at university (the details depend on the (German) state you live in as school matters are not federal). And when you graduate from Gymnasium (the top-level high school) you are about 2 years ahead of what you learn at American high school. (I've graduated from Gymnasium and spent my junior year at an American high school. Compared to my German Gymnasium, American high school was trivial.)

That medical degrees are cheaper in Europe is IMHO an asset. And university in Germany is essentially free, so the cost is borne by society and repaid to society when the doctors finishes their education and is working in their jobs. Getting into medical school in Germany is exceedingly difficult, though. The grade averages are notoriously insanely high, and even though I had a pretty good grade average when graduating from high school.
Originally Posted by elchupacabra View Post
Masters Portal
Medical Schools in Europe
France looks like 11 yrs post high school education according to above article. Germany it looks like a 'total' of 6 yrs post high school education, Im not finding anything about Germany requiring 7 yrs specialty training; either way it's still less of a bottle neck than in the US. In the US we have 4 yrs undergrad degree (which is pretty worthless for being a dr), then 4 yrs med school degree then 3-7 years specialty training. And we deny 30,000 perfectly qualified applicants per yr to ensure doctors are in short supply.
I cannot speak for France (nor would it be useful to enumerate 26 other European countries, but regarding Germany, specialization (Facharztausbildung) takes between 5 and 8 years depending on the specialty, with the average being 6 years; the only exceptions are anatomy and biochemistry where it only takes 4 years, apparently. That is in addition to 6 years of study, and adds up to at least 12 years in total for most specializations. If you think about it, it's not really surprising: an American oncologist has to know about the same stuff as a German of French oncologist. And Germans aren't twice as smart as Americans, so they can learn all they need to know in half the time.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
In order to change our system our people would have to be smarter than just grunting "free stuff free stuff!". […] All they want to talk about is "free" & "socialism". Any attempt to try 1 small regulated capitalist solution is met with fight.
Health care is not free in any system, in England you pay for it with your taxes, in Germany you pay your health insurance premiums. So you are not getting free stuff, you are getting stuff that you paid for. You also wouldn't say that a car insurance got you a new car “for free” after you had a collision, no, you and the other person involved in it paid for it with your insurance premiums. As a good capitalist, you socialized your risk of a car accident via the private market. Of course, other countries (including the US if you are a vet or old enough) socialize health care publicly, i. e. via the state.

The US has tried and failed with its “capitalist” approach. Its system is significantly more expensive and produces worse health outcomes than any other developed nation by a wide margin. And in time of pandemics, it is putting the well-being of a significant share of its citizens and the entire economy at risk. Worldwide a whole host of systems have been tried and they pretty much all work better, including systems with private insurances (such as Germany's). It's just that these insurances are highly regulated. They are cheaper and result in better health outcomes.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
A nurse could handle most people's problems in the US, but nurse practitioning has been regulated into extreme expense.
Nurses are not replacements for doctors or a properly functioning medical system. We could think of expanding the authority of nurses in certain circumstances, but using one of the weakest links in the whole medical system as a bandaid for a flesh wound is just making matters worse.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
All medical procedures & drugs have a fixed prenegotiated prices. But that fixed price is different with each insurance company & generally higher for uninsured individuals, discouraging people from not using insurance. Few people know these costs even for prescheduled procedures because no one cares as long as they have their buffet card.
Which is one reason why Americans pay horrendous amounts for drugs. In Germany drug prices are negotiated for by the state on behalf of all insurance companies. I think you can guess why drugs are cheaper in Germany. Or pretty much in any other developed country.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
None of this is unpredictable, everyone's going to get sick, diseased, disabled, in accidents etc., so let us plan for it ourselves. […] We should be using a straight pay as you go system or payment plans for truly large bills, this would drive prices down. None the less, these large ER bills are negotiable after the fact.
You don't apply that logic to any other field where you have insurance. Why don't people save up money rather than car insurance premiums? Because such a system wouldn't work on roads — almost nobody would get paid what they are owed. And it doesn't work for the exact same reasons in health care. Not everyone is getting disabled or a serious cancer diagnosis.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The fact we use middlemen insurance to pay our bills means we dont care what the hospital charges the insurance because we're so stupid we assume the insurance just eats it. The insurance companies respond by raising premium payments on everyone the next year - the option to not use insurance has been difficult even before the ACA, it's set up so you pay for it whether you use it or not. This is part of the reason the insurance concept is inherently flawed.
The insurance model isn't inherently flawed, it works well in other countries. It's the US's implementation that is flawed. The US has partial implementation of basically every type of health care system. UK-style health care: yes, the VA hospitals work that way and so does Medicare. Obamacare's exchanges are a form of regulated private insurances, something that works well in Switzerland or Germany. None of these systems bring universal coverage and give strong bargaining power to bring costs down. So you have none of the benefits with all of the burdens. Plus a huge administration to make sense of this maze.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Black people benefited too after the war. They were rising up, integrating in white neighborhoods & joining the middle class.
Black people were systematically excluded from the benefits of the GI bill and other laws that created a path for average Americans to own their own homes. That prevented African Americans from accumulating generational wealth, something you can see the ramifications of very clearly today.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The liberals of California didnt like having to see black people, so often when one would venture out of their neighborhood they'd call the police to beat or shoot the person.
Sure, there was discrimination in California, too. But the way you write this bit incorrectly suggests that racism was a “liberal” problem in the US. It was not. It was and is a societal problem, and arguably worse in the South.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Country folk who were living peacefully with blacks for a hundred years. Blacks who went through the classic cowboy era with them, who still own the ranches they inherited from the past, those 1 in 10 blacks who arent brain washed to vote liberal.
That sounds more like wishful thinking than reality.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
As for post WW2 being the most prosperous. Way fewer proportion of people had college degrees than today, so the access to education cant be that hard. You can get a decent college education in the US for less than $20k as long as youre not trying to attend your favorite elite party school.
Prosperous means society is improving. At that time, the GI bill paid for college degrees (of white people) at universities, including top-level universities. This opened the door for better jobs. A lot of baby boomers I talk to tell me that they paid for tuition fees by working over summer break, so many of them had much less (if any) student debt. Unlike today, families could get by on a single income. (The market was the greatest force for women's rights, nowadays I cannot think of a developed country where average families can afford to live on a single income.) The income grew much more evenly across different segments of the American population whereas now the growth only happens in the top 1 %.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 31, 2020, 05:57 PM
 
Update: the unmarked federal agents have pulled back. Demonstrations went peacefully last night, without any significant incidents.

State Police are now guarding the federal courthouse. The crowd is offering less provocation, and the state cops are keeping a low profile. Not challenging the crowds at the drop of a hat. City police did close the parks across the street (with tape). Demonstrators use the parks as a staging area for the protests - food & water, signs, etc. When protesters entered the parks anyway, the police withdrew for the night. No fights, no arrests.

As for those unnamed federal agents? They aren't actually gone:
Despite the concerns of many in the crowd that the Trump administration would not fulfil the agreement to pull back the federal officers, none were seen on the streets.
Trump tweeted that the agents would remain in Portland until Brown brings the protests led by “anarchists and agitators” under control.
One would assume they are enjoying paid leave in nearby hotel rooms. It cannot be proven that any joined the protests for the night.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 1, 2020, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Big corporations can easily afford red tape, at least the kind they're lobbying for... They know small startups cant afford it as well, it's pretty simple.
Why is it then that our asshole government are currently in the process of shitting all over our high food production standards so they can make a trade deal to import your substandard garbage?

Corporations can afford red tape but corporations don't compete with the corner shop at the end of the street, they only compete with each other. If that.
They will go to insane lengths to save a buck. Look at how many don't pay living wages. Isn't Walmart set up so most of its staff work full time and still claim welfare or something? Government subsidised slave labour is as good as it gets these days. And all so you can buy a bunch of obscenely cheap tat you don't need. And low quality food.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:18 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,