[boots]

Originally Posted by Salty

You know, as someone who's read probably nothing close to anything formal from myself, you're not exactly the best person to criticize. I was just reading some Calvin the other day and he was complaining all the way back then about people who wrote in manners so as to keep the common man from understanding what they were saying. While Scripture hold all manner of deep truth and wisdom, God has always made it clear that He did not desire to fit into human reasoning. He sets the rules, and I find the more complex people decide to make their thinking, the further away they get from the truth of Scripture. But then again I'm simply a humble undergrad student so the gospel must not actually be able to be understood by one so low as I.

I hope your formal writing doesn't reflect the single minded crap you spew here.




And they nailed him to a tree.

[boots]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I've just had a bath... ...and happen to think better in the bath (Eureka!, etc., etc..)...

...I'm calling BS on this whole thread. Where'd that drama llama get to?

He's hiding in the closet for tomorrow's grand entrance.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by boots

He's hiding in the closet for tomorrow's grand entrance.

Should I expect a new thread ?
Or will we finally get a pink Lounge ?

-t

[Salty]

Originally Posted by boots

I hope your formal writing doesn't reflect the single minded crap you spew here.




And they nailed him to a tree.

You know, this is the most bitchy I've ever seen you.

[Ghoser777]

I think we need one big group hug.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

I think we need one bug group hug.

This was captioned, "an assassin bug orgy."



Somehow it fits.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Salty

Yes/No document for the church, specifically asked. I wasn't willing to lie. Then the untrained, unqualified, and unhealthy counselling began. You know what the sad thing is? I was more qualified in counselling than the assoc pastor apparently. Sigh...

ok it's late friday night...i have no idea what you are saying...

are you saying the church asked you for your files? from what your personal mac or theirs? and why would they even think of asking?

i'm not being an ass, just notsure why the church booted you out...i see lawsuit

best

[Salty]

Originally Posted by ironknee

ok it's late friday night...i have no idea what you are saying...

are you saying the church asked you for your files? from what your personal mac or theirs? and why would they even think of asking?

i'm not being an ass, just notsure why the church booted you out...i see lawsuit

best

The church has a program called plan to protect. It's designed to keep people who might hurt a child away from working with kids. There's also a contract that you have to sign to work with kids in the church, in it you say if you've been involved in anything "bad". Which is a wee bit silly cause a pedophile could just lie or something. And a lot of the information that could be collected has nothing to do with the safety of kids (like in my case). That said I wasn't willing to lie on the document so I told the truth.

[Ghoser777]

That's silly - I'm a school teacher and I never was subjected to that.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

That's silly - I'm a school teacher and I never was subjugated to that.

That's cause secular institutions know that all kinds of non-pedophiles look at porn.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Salty

The church has a program called plan to protect. It's designed to keep people who might hurt a child away from working with kids. There's also a contract that you have to sign to work with kids in the church, in it you say if you've been involved in anything "bad". Which is a wee bit silly cause a pedophile could just lie or something. And a lot of the information that could be collected has nothing to do with the safety of kids (like in my case). That said I wasn't willing to lie on the document so I told the truth.

sorry for pressing, you know i think you rule for doing this but what did you say?

yesi look at porn? (we all do)

anyways...rock on

[abe]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

That's silly - I'm a school teacher and I never was subjugated to that.

Your decision to become a teacher was a noble one.

[euchomai]

Okay it's officially April 1st... Is the charade over? This is a joke right?

[OB1]

Originally Posted by Salty

I don't see scripture supporting homosexual sex. Therefore for now I am celibate. If I am convinced in another way later on I of course would change my behaviour in light of it (and probably have a lot of fun doing so). But as of right now, I do not do everything that I think I would enjoy, so this just goes on the pile.

For goodness sake. Cast aside this medieval mumbo-jumbo, go and meet some other gay guys, and get yourself some cock and bum action.

[abe]

Originally Posted by ironknee

sorry for pressing, you know i think you rule for doing this but what did you say?

yesi look at porn? (we all do)

anyways...rock on

DUDE! I was just sittin here looking at your sig and then...POOF!

Freaky deaky!

[Ghoser777]

Originally Posted by abe

Your decision to become a teacher was a noble one.

Thanks!

[Salty]

Originally Posted by ironknee

sorry for pressing, you know i think you rule for doing this but what did you say?

yesi look at porn? (we all do)

anyways...rock on

Well I wrote down on the form, "I have to talk to Gary". So then I talked to him, who talked to the Sr. Pastor, and then they decided they'd keep it confidential. Of course their idea of confidential is pretty crappy.

David leaves Gary's office about to blow up and needs to get out.
Next day Gary tells everyone David's no longer a sponsor (for personal reasons, apparently we'd agreed I wouldn't be a sponsor... cough lies cough)
That day David hears of this, phones Gary, calls him a ****ing asshole (among other things)
Next day Gary and Steve (sr. pastor) inform entire elder board because things don't seem so peaceful. (giving them the Steviezed version of events so that anything I say would be taken as the emotional rantings of "one of those")

Ha, also since I told several of the YG kids why I wasn't a sponsor anymore and they asked questions of their sponsors, Gary decided to tell all the sponsors (this is the only time I would have made the same choice. That said even afterwards most of them weren't exactly happy with the fact that I had been given the boot)

It was actually nice last Sunday, one of the other sponsors who I've almost never really seen eye to eye with, when I asked her if she had any questions she said, "No, not really, I mean you're still Dave."
Then again she's done a lot of things that she doesn't like the idea of people looking at her as, so I think she can empathize.

I'm debating going back this Sunday again. I don't know why. Part of me wants to just close the book. Part of me wants to see if they'll ask me to leave hehe.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

It's also pretty darn evident that certain "aspects" of Christianity play an instrumental role in turning people into somewhat "less than admirable" human beings. That's something a lot of you just aren't willing to accept.

I don't think it's a mere coincidence that so many evangelical American Christans are complete totalitarian asshats, that pedophilia and child molestation are rampant in the Catholic Curch and just about every "serial killer" has been a guilt ridden indivual, unable to identify with his own sexuality.

No, not everything about Christianity is bad, – it just has some really "bad" aspects (yes, like so many other things in life).

One thing this has in common Kronos? It's not religion. It's man's greed. Your beef is with man. But since you can't self loath, you bash Religion.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Honestly, I don't really care.

Now that is as bare-faced a lie as we're likely to see in this thread.

STFU already.

As for "apologizing" or eating crow or whatever - why do you think Salty posted this thread?

It's sad that you're insecure enough not to be able to see this thread for what it is, and still feel the need to bash him.

[Ozmodiar]

Originally Posted by euchomai

This is a joke right?

Originally Posted by Salty

I don't see scripture supporting homosexual sex. Therefore for now I am celibate. If I am convinced in another way later on I of course would change my behaviour in light of it (and probably have a lot of fun doing so). But as of right now, I do not do everything that I think I would enjoy, so this just goes on the pile.

Gods I hope so.

[Salty]

You know, I should just make you all feel better and just tell you it was a joke haha...

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Rumor

It's really too bad the negative views most people have on the gay population.

Tooki pretty much said they were all true. Cept the pedo part.

Originally Posted by ambush

So much misdirection going on at the bible college.

Fixed that

The Church has to accept that homosexuality is natural, and embrace gays, and stop assuming that same sex people will not be interested towards each other.

One out of two aint bad.

Originally Posted by chris v

but hey, we're all sinners, right? Maybe they'll reflect & repent.

We are in the same boat. no matter where we put our penis

Originally Posted by greenamp

Meh, church is over rated. They deepest secrets about God are never revealed to you there, but in solitude.

You may be onto something there.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

So salty you feel like you owe anyone here an apology for all the anti-gay comments you have made here over the years?

So SWG you feel like you owe anyone here an apology for all the anti-Christian comments you have made here over the years?

It is funny how the people you meet in life that are the most anti-Christian and constantly have to point it out are actually closet cases. The reason, they think they are Christian and because of whatever environment they are in they can't come out. Instead they take their frustrations out by targeting other Christian people calling it stupid. Hopefully enough hate will flush the Christian out of them in their mind or at the least give them a group to vent towards without looking at themselves.

Thing is I can name a couple other people here that are unhealthily obsessed with Christianit and me for that matter.

You know that man you hate SWG? You look more like him everyday.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

If you wonder why take a look at the TON of gay themed posts he has made over the years.

Some of them are classic

What about the TON of Christian theme posts you have made and CONTINUE to make over the years?

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

So did you try praying to god to make you straight? I am asking seriously.

I mean you were a regular charlie church and even wanted to work for the church yet somehow you are still a sinner in the churches view.

Shame they can't accept the good you may have done and are instead shunning you. And people wonder why the church gets a bad name around here.

Actually just by the few. Just like the few gay bashers in here.

Again SWF, you have the same hate-filled and bigoted desires about Christians and the very people you are complaining about.

Basically you hate in others, what you hate about yourself.

Being gay is no more of a sin than a man being hetero.

A man can however do sinful things because of his said desires.

These are no worse than the other. We are all in the same boat.

[Kevin]

And as far as Salty goes, if this isn't just a put on. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Remember, no matter how many people try to tell you. God still loves you regardless.

Never give up.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Please help me. What are these "aspects"? Love unconditionally?

Yes, that's one of them. Suppressing your natural instinct for revenge and the ability to make sophisticated decisions would very much fu<k with your brain.

To be able to "love unconditionally" takes decades of introspection and careful guidance. Anybody who hasn't reached that point yet, and simply "forgives" and "loves" because it says so in the bible will be messed up in the head eventually. God knows (pi) I've seen enough of those kinds of people.

Originally Posted by Railroader

Self sacrifice?

Yes, that's actually the worst part. "Self denial" is the shining sore on the leprous body of Christianity.

Originally Posted by Railroader

No, the "aspects" you are talking about are human and not Christian.

No, actually they are pretty much both.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Salty

But for now, I don't see scripture supporting homosexual sex. Therefore for now I am celibate.

Heh. Dude, you're not gay. If you were, you'd be hittin it like there was no tomorrow right now. You might wanna double check your sexual preference file again, there could be a slight "corruption" going on.

[Maflynn]

[QUOTE=ironknee]yesi look at porn? (we all do)/QUOTE]


Umm no I don't and I know a lot of people who don't. Just becuase you do, doesn't mean everyone does.

As a Christian, there are specific passages in the New testiment against sexual immorality, sex outside the marriage and the sermon on the mount condems lust. All of which indict the use of pornography.

Most Bible believing churchs condemn the use of porn as a sinful act that effects the Chrisitan and impacts his relationship with the Lord. As a leader of a church it is expected that they are above reproach. That doesn't mean they are sinless but they don't engage in continual sin.

Mike

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Salty

There's a few schools of thought. I imagine over the course of the next bit I'm going to try and read some of the more liberal theologians who support for a pro.

My only critique is, that you look hard enough you'll find someone supporting your position. This applies to anything everywhere not just the Bible

As for passages that seem to be pretty clear in its position:
Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, 1st Cor 6:9

I'm the type of guy that doesn't "read into what it says" but read what it says.

I can understand your desire to try to justify your lifestyle biblcally especially with your background of going to Bible College and your desire for a relationship with God. That doesn't mean its a supported lifestyle in the Bible. I'm not trying to be harsh but I don't want you to be deluded to think everything is all rosey now.


Mike

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

I'm the type of guy that doesn't "read into what it says" but read what it says.

So do you take everything in the bible on face value? Or is it just selective?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

I'm the type of guy that doesn't "read into what it says" but read what it says.

That's 'literally' impossible…

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Angus_D

So do you take everything in the bible on face value? Or is it just selective?

I take everything that is written in the Bible at face value. When symbolism is used, I research to see if its used elsewhere in the bible for a point of reference and definition. Typically when a symbol is used in the Bible there is a source definition found elsewhere.

If you've read the Bible you'll see 90% of it is straight forward, such as do not murder, do not commit adultery. Admittedly there are passages that do need interpretation, but clearly the majority of it is not that way. There is little need to "interpret" the Bible.

I read it everyday, if you disagree with my assesment please provide the passages that counter what I'm saying. I'm no expert by any stretch of the definition so if you can add value by instructing me otherwise please do.


Mike

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Yes, that's one of them. Suppressing your natural instinct for revenge and the ability to make sophisticated decisions would very much fu<k with your brain.

What is gained from revenge?

Why do I have to refrain from decision making?

To be able to "love unconditionally" takes decades of introspection and careful guidance. Anybody who hasn't reached that point yet, and simply "forgives" and "loves" because it says so in the bible will be messed up in the head eventually. God knows (pi) I've seen enough of those kinds of people.

Since it's hard to do, no one should try? Or, are you saying that since some people get it wrong, then it should be tossed out?

Yes, that's actually the worst part. "Self denial" is the shining sore on the leprous body of Christianity.

Do you understand the purpose of self denial? It is not about deeming yourself worthless. The purpose is to serve the community, to serve each other, to put the needs of the whole above the needs of self. I can't really see how that is leprous?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Salty

I'm debating going back this Sunday again. I don't know why. Part of me wants to just close the book. Part of me wants to see if they'll ask me to leave hehe.

It's an opportunity for you to show them God's love during a time when they are struggling to show it to you. You should not become bitter towards them, but should continue to love them.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

It's an opportunity for you to show them God's love during a time when they are struggling to show it to you. You should not become bitter towards them, but should continue to love them.

Nicely put

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Yes, that's one of them. Suppressing your natural instinct for revenge and the ability to make sophisticated decisions would very much fu<k with your brain.

To be able to "love unconditionally" takes decades of introspection and careful guidance. Anybody who hasn't reached that point yet, and simply "forgives" and "loves" because it says so in the bible will be messed up in the head eventually. God knows (pi) I've seen enough of those kinds of people.

Yes, that's actually the worst part. "Self denial" is the shining sore on the leprous body of Christianity.

No, actually they are pretty much both.

Sounds like you're the one with the messed up head. Love unconditionally and self-sacrifice are two of the most noble things anyone could hope to attaint. If you were able to do both completely you would be perfect.

God knows we are unable to reach that status so he relieves the burden another way. Thereby taking the load off of us and making it easier to love.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Heh. Dude, you're not gay. If you were, you'd be hittin it like there was no tomorrow right now. You might wanna double check your sexual preference file again, there could be a slight "corruption" going on.

WOW!!! You have some weird beliefs. You think because someone is gay that they are an uncontrollable nympho?!?!

Thank God (literally) most people don't think like you.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

It's an opportunity for you to show them God's love during a time when they are struggling to show it to you. You should not become bitter towards them, but should continue to love them.

It is also an opportunity for you to allow them to love you Salty. If they don't, then it is not a Bible believing Church.

Remember, your motives need to be right for that to happen. Don't go back with vengence or "testing" in mind.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Railroader

It is also an opportunity for you to allow them to love you Salty.

Yep your they do and your right but its clear the Lord puts the onus on us to act first regardless who's fault it is. Salty should show unconditional love and forgiveness towards them even if they don't but they as a Chrisitan church should exhibt the same level of unconditional love. That doesn't mean tolerating sin or lifestyles that are contrary to the Bible but it does mean accepting the people just not the sin.

Mike

[Mithras]

I accept you, Maflynn, just not your eating of shrimp.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Sounds like you're the one with the messed up head. Love unconditionally and self-sacrifice are two of the most noble things anyone could hope to attaint…

Yes, attain is the key word here. And that is something completely different than simply accepting the message from a written text and spiritual dogma.

I have yet to meet a Christian (who wasn't a monk) who has actually reached that kind of spiritual level. And when you are there, "self scrifice" isn't the proper term any longer since you actually gain so much more than you give (up).

Self denial on the other hand, turns people into vindictive and bitter little asshats…

Originally Posted by Railroader

God knows we are unable to reach that status so he relieves the burden another way. Thereby taking the load off of us and making it easier to love.

Yeah, sure.

[forkies]

Originally Posted by Mithras

I accept you, Maflynn, just not your eating of shrimp.

welcome. you welcome shrimp-eaters, just not their sinful ways of eating shellfish. then once they come you can change & brainwa--- i mean "love" them.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Railroader

WOW!!! You have some weird beliefs. You think because someone is gay that they are an uncontrollable nympho?!?!

LOL. Most of them probably are.

Honestly though, if the roles were reversed and I had to wait 'til my mid twenties to get laid because of some stupid social/religious dogma, I'd be hittin that sh1t like Ron Jeremy in the good 'ol days as soon as that closet door came open.

That's just me though.

Originally Posted by Railroader

Thank God (literally) most people don't think like you.

Heh. I'm not making any intellectual claim here or telling people what to do. Just sayin'.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

What is gained from revenge?

A sense of "justice done", of course. (Not my philosophy, – but that's the psychological part of it)

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Why do I have to refrain from decision making?

"Sophisticated" is the key term, not decision. I would say a person denying him/herself a whole range of emotions when making a decision, can not make a sohisticated choice.

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Or, are you saying that since some people get it wrong, then it should be tossed out?

No, I'm saying that most people get it wrong, and because of that become self loathing and spiritually hypocritical nitwits. I am in no position to tell anybody to "toss out" any spiritual quest they are on.

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Do you understand the purpose of self denial?

Read what I wrote in my reply to Railroader about that.

[boots]

Originally Posted by Salty

You know, this is the most bitchy I've ever seen you.

"Truth hurts."


But no, you've seen me bitchier. It's even been directed at you. Mostly when you ask for advice/opinion, then proceed to rip the advice apart or argue against it for some weird reason...until it becomes clear that you didn't want advice or an opinion from someone else. You were only looking for affirmation of your own thoughts. It's some bizarre passive-agressive behavior you have on the board.

Call it bitchy, call it mean spirited. I call it giving you a specific answer and an example to back it up.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by analogika

Now that is as bare-faced a lie as we're likely to see in this thread.

STFU already.

As for "apologizing" or eating crow or whatever - why do you think Salty posted this thread?

It's sad that you're insecure enough not to be able to see this thread for what it is, and still feel the need to bash him.

Oooh, a guy on the internet told me to shut up Sleepless night for me.

NOTHING about this thread comes off as an apology, zero. In fact he is still being insulting by calling me names.

Heck even the straight guys here have pointed out that he did plenty of gay bashing over the years . Salty finally admitting what I was saying all along is not an apology and I'm not wanting to be best friends with him just because he is gay.

So get a grip.

[JonoG4]

How can you guys not realize this was just a joke? Even after Salty finally admitted it

Edit: After reading what Salty wrote again, he didn't actually say it was a joke.. But either way, I still think it is.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by JonoG4

How can you guys not realize this was just a joke? Even after Salty finally admitted it

Maybe because it would be the world's worst joke?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

No, I'm saying that most people get it wrong, and because of that become self loathing and spiritually hypocritical nitwits.

I think that comes from pride, not from self denial. The people that do that are prideful and attempting to prove themselves to be better Christians than everyone else. It's not caused by self denial - it's something that self denial would help them with because they would learn to deny their pride and not allow it to control how they treat others.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Kevin

One thing this has in common Kronos? It's not religion. It's man's greed. Your beef is with man. But since you can't self loath, you bash Religion.

Wow! That was a VERY insightful comment.

Our Deepest Fear

by Marianne Williamson
from A Return To Love: Reflections on
the Principles of A Course in Miracles

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

It seems something blocks Kronos' self realization and the only thing he can think to do about it is to lash out at religion.

[Salty]

As for showing the elder board love... I'm not exactly sure how that should look right now. Last Sunday I made a point to refuse to shake on of their hands (actually I was quite civil to one who caught me off guard hahaha, I forgot he was an elder so I shook his hand and gave him a smile.) Anyway. I'm not sure exactly right now how I should be balancing my contempt for their unjustifiable behaviour, and how I should be being better than they have been.

Anyway, right now I'm just enjoying seeing the reactions from people. That said I really would love to know that a few people gave em angry phone calls or something. Sigh... I'm just really bad at pretending like things don't hurt when they do.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

As a Christian, there are specific passages in the New testiment against sexual immorality, sex outside the marriage and the sermon on the mount condems lust. All of which indict the use of pornography.

Most Bible believing churchs condemn the use of porn as a sinful act that effects the Chrisitan and impacts his relationship with the Lord. As a leader of a church it is expected that they are above reproach. That doesn't mean they are sinless but they don't engage in continual sin.

Mike

See I've recently been pondering the Sermon on the mount's condemnation of lust. and I realized that for the most part by the age when men lust, they were married in those days. And thus yes were bound to their wives. So I'm not entirely sure that that passage is really as great a fit as it's often used. Since ultimately men who are not married are going to burn with lust, and Paul offers as a way around that marriage. Paul doesn't seem to condemn them for being lustful if they're not married.
As well, the Bible provides nothing for men struggling with homosexual lust. And beyond that, what is lust? Is it lust that when I see a guy walking around in dorm in his boxers that I get a wee bit aroused? I'm not convinced. I think lust has to be a bit more direct.

Am I meaning to condone pornography? Course not. If I was, I wouldn't have been making an effort to curb my usage with the ultimate goal of complete self control. That said, if you want to start punishing everyone with self control problems, then there are a lot of people in the church who should be taken out of ministry.

My problem was that I was removed because I was not willing to go about overcoming it on the terms of our assoc pastor who didn't understand things, and was basically using fear and intimidation as motivating factors. What happens if for some reason I move on to another church afterward? I haven't overcome anything that pushed me towards it, all I did was immobilize myself under a burden of fear. Once that was lifted I would probably have returned to it.