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Uncle Skeleton · Nov 12, 2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by loki74

Okay, I guess I really have to hold your hand on this one. No, obviously showbiz did not help people who were not in showbiz. That part of my reply was a concession that for those who did have fame in showbiz, it probably did help them out. My point is that Clinton and Palin do not have the celebrity status that Barack does (idk about JFK). I don't even think Clinton and Palin can be considered in the same class as him, since making fun of Clinton was (and is) pretty popular, and boy is ragging on Palin ever in style!

Yeah, no one makes fun of [zero]bama

But perhaps I could have been clearer:

The quote "Same for any other charismatic politician I can think of" was referring to my observation that among charismatic politicians, Barack seems to have the most celebrity appeal.

You see what you want to see, I see.

Obama enjoys a cult of personality, no question about that. But to claim that this is something new to politics in America or out of it is just hogwash.

loki74 · Nov 12, 2009, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Obama enjoys a cult of personality, no question about that. But to claim that this is something new to politics in America or out of it is just hogwash.

okay... let me try to spell it out for you in even simpler terms:

Have other politicians had this so-called "cult of personality"?
Absolutely.

Has it happened in the last 20 years? Even sooner?
Most certainly.

Have they been on both sides of the aisle?
Without a doubt.

You seem to be targeting questions which I have already made clear my stance on. You're arguing a point that I don't necessarily disagree with. My point has to do with the magnitude of Barack's "cult of personality."

So, concerning the magnitude of Barack's "cult of personality:"

Is it unprecedented in the history of American politics?
Doubt it.

Is it noteworthy?
Absolutely.

Is it greater than Clinton's/Palin's/et cetera?
I'd say so.

I actually have more thoughts on this, but I'll just leave it at that because you're obviously having difficulty wrapping your head around this very simple concept... I don't want to make it even more complicated for you.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Yeah, no one makes fun of [zero]bama

Of course they do. Can you quote me denying that? Do you really think I don't see things like "NObama" or "Keep The Change?" Obviously people make fun of Obama. They just do so having to recognize that they don't get to be in the "cool, fashionable, modern, intellectual, 'smart' people crowd."

Also keep in mind that as I mentioned before, my experiences may be impacted by the fact that I spend 90% of my time on a university campus. Never have I denied that Obama's "cool factor"--or "cult of personality" as you like to say--may not be as powerful across the board as it has been in my experience.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

You see what you want to see, I see.

Oh yeah, I just really want people to adore a man I don't agree with. I want that so badly.

But I get what you're saying; yes it would be convenient for my argument if people loved him even more than they do. And for the record, yes, I see things with some bias. I'm not denying that. But the very fact that you're trying to talk down to me for seeing things with my own biases implies that you think you see things completely objectively and have no biases. I'd say that's a claim you should be careful making....

besson3c · 04:24 AM

See Doofy, I told you that Loki thinks that Obama is cool.

Uncle Skeleton · Nov 13, 2009, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by loki74

But the very fact that you're trying to talk down to me for seeing things with my own biases

No, I'm talking down to you because you're saying things that are demonstrably false as if you think they're self evident. You stand to benefit from some harsh reality.

You seem to be targeting questions which I have already made clear my stance on. You're arguing a point that I don't necessarily disagree with. My point has to do with the magnitude of Barack's "cult of personality."

So, concerning the magnitude of Barack's "cult of personality:"

Is it unprecedented in the history of American politics?
Doubt it.

That's not what you said at all, you're backpedaling.
The thing we haven't seen before is the "cool factor"... And that's what we haven't really seen before here in the States (at least not in my lifetime).
Barack seems to have the most celebrity appeal.

Apparently you don't mean what you say or say what you mean, and that bores me, so I'll leave you with this constructive criticism: that whole asking yourself questions and then answering them thing makes you appear clownish.

loki74 · Nov 13, 2009, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Apparently you don't mean what you say or say what you mean, and that bores me,

Very well, I'll admit that I wasn't clear in my initial post. I should have said, "...what we haven't seen before is the extent of Barack's 'cool factor.'" And yes, I have doubt that it is completely unprecedented. Quite simply, I have never seen it get this crazy, and I'm skeptical that it has happened to this degree for a very long time. But I'm not about to say it's unprecedented. I think that would be a bit of a lofty statement (no one, least of all me, has been around long enough to say something like that).

Please also note that the statement "never seen before" was qualified with the limitation, "in my lifetime." "Unprecedented in the history of American politics" does not have this limitation. However, I do recognize that "unprecedented, ever" may have been inferred from what I had said in that post. Guess I should have calibrated my words a little better.

Charisma will always have an effect on a politician's success. "Cults of personality" are nothing new. But the degree to which people utterly worship Barack is something I have never seen or heard of before. This does not mean I'm going to say that it has never happened. But I think it's questionable to say that he isn't the only one on the political landscape with this kind of celebrity appeal.

ebuddy · Nov 13, 2009, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

That isn't really a "phenomena we've not really seen before".

You're right, but I'd qualify that with the last time we saw the crying, the screaming, and the fainting; it was The Beatles.

Admittedly, people weren't wearing Bush tshirts and baseball hats, but with some people you certainly couldn't critique him. It may not have been as obvious to determine who wasn't willing to hear honest assessments of Bush's performance, but they were certainly there, just the same. He may not have been treated as the second coming of Christ by some of his followers, but there were some some who certainly seemed to believe that God was working through Bush. Do you think they were willing to hear honest assessments of Bush's performance?

Certainly there are those who would defend the indefensible out of loyalty, but they still had to defend their ideology at the end of the day. You can decide whether or not these defenders performed admirably, but you certainly didn't get to paint the opposition with the politically correct brush of racism for example.

No, President Worship isn't a new phenomena. But, it might be more obvious these days given more and more ways are emerging to express our loyalties. Consider that Facebook didn't even *exist* during the honeymoon phase of Bush's Presidency.

Politician worship to this degree is certainly unprecedented. I think everything about this President is a new phenomena. For example, Barack Obama received more television coverage in his first 50 days in office than George W. Bush and Bill Clinton did in theirs combined. Unless of course you could cite for me where political pundits discussed the feelings up their legs at the mere presence of the politician or News editor statements like; "In a way (enter politician's name) is standing above the country, above the world. He's sort of God. He's going to bring all different sides together."

Then... there's the Nobel Peace Prize. How many Presidents recieved this honor during their Presidency? How many people in general would enjoy this achievement within mere weeks of their work toward the betterment of man on a global scale?

ebuddy · Nov 13, 2009, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

What's ironic is that ebuddy was the single biggest Palin apologist around here, and he's the first one to claim that Obamania is unprecedented...

I was the single biggest Palin apologist around here?

I wish she'd stay as far away from the spotlight as possible
As it stands now, I'm hoping Palin does an effective job of getting Republicans elected, then writes a book discussing why she'll not be running for President.
but I do think we'd better not be putting too much stock in Palin/Jindal as the future of the party.
While I'm wholeheartedly opposed to the notion that Sarah Palin is "the future face of the Republican Party"
I'm really hoping that the buzz about Palin being the "face of the future of the Republican party" is not accurate. She says "also" too much also. Don't get me wrong, there were aspects of her bid that I found appealing, but she just didn't produce anything remotely close to the ideal of a Sarah Palin. i.e. the hype. I'm not sure she's the one to carry the future of the Republican party on her shoulders. Neither is the plumber in case they get any more dumb ideas.

This is just a few of them. I've got more if you'd like. Somehow I'm certain she'd not want me as her spokesperson. People will see what they wanna see for sure.

Obamacrats, Obamatons, Obamaniacs, and Obamania are most assuredly unprecedented. Palin doesn't even come close. The Obamania is evident in threads such as this one that would have you believe concern over government involvement in banks, insurance, the auto industry, and healthcare are silly little, inconsequential matters important only to radical, right-wing, anti-Obama zealots.

ebuddy · Nov 13, 2009, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

In case anyone missed it, the joke here is Michelle Obama giving reasonable advice while people are foaming at the mouth about indoctrination.

You apparently missed it. The official 'NN Obamaton posted an article about Michelle Obama appearing on Sesame Street by framing it sarcastically as an attempt to take over parenting. This of course to indicate why the very real concerns over the increasing role of the government is unimportant. This, followed up by another "apologist" suggesting sarcastically that this is indoctrination.

I've seen nothing so far that would indicate some Republican or "right-wing" outcry against her appearance on Sesame Street. Zilch. The thread, the point made by it, and the responses to it from "the left" in this thread have all been framed in a sarcastic light to poke fun at concern over increasing government involvement in important matters.

Wiskedjak · Nov 13, 2009, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Politician worship to this degree is certainly unprecedented.

Agreed. Politician worship to this degree is unprecedented in recent history. It's not *new*, but with Obama it has increased.

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 02:26 PM

Do you think that the level of Obama worship would exist if Bush was a better president? I'm not trying to twist the knife on Bush, I'm just wondering if part of this was simply a right place, right time sort of deal?

besson3c · 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I've seen nothing so far that would indicate some Republican or "right-wing" outcry against her appearance on Sesame Street. Zilch. The thread, the point made by it, and the responses to it from "the left" in this thread have all been framed in a sarcastic light to poke fun at concern over increasing government involvement in important matters.

But why would it illogical to assume that there might be? I mean, some on the right were freaking out about Obama not wearing a lapel pin, do you remember that? There was also those little kids singing some song about Obama...

I was just trying to start a political revolution, is all, perhaps get on the Daily Show...

andi*pandi · Nov 13, 2009, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

You apparently missed it. ... I've seen nothing so far that would indicate some Republican or "right-wing" outcry against her appearance on Sesame Street. Zilch.

Actually I think you missed it. The point wasn't that the Republicans ARE making a fuss about this appearance... but that it was sadly feasible they WOULD go off on any innocuous event. These are people that protest the school address, the flag pin, the way Obama breathes in and out.

YouTube - Grouch Trashes Fox News

Sesame Street Mocks "Pox News," Conservative Blogger Not Amused (VIDEO)

YouTube - Chris Wallace Applauds Michelle Obama "Sesame Street" Parody

hyteckit · Nov 13, 2009, 03:52 PM

Colbert Report on Brain Washing of Sesame Street

Grover the Hill | November 11, 2009 | ColbertNation.com

andi*pandi · Nov 13, 2009, 03:54 PM

OMG, reading the comments on this site makes the pol/war lounge look like tea with the queen:

Big Hollywood � Blog Archive � ‘Sesame Street’ Trashes Fox News

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

OMG, reading the comments on this site makes the pol/war lounge look like tea with the queen:

Big Hollywood � Blog Archive � ‘Sesame Street’ Trashes Fox News

I just don't understand how it could be at all fun to be a conservative of this nature, so uptight and angry about just about everything.

Doofy · Nov 13, 2009, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I just don't understand how it could be at all fun to be a conservative of this nature, so uptight and angry about just about everything.

You're right. It's much more fun to be a conservative/independent of a sovereign nature and dance on the backs of the socialistically inclined whilst laughing wildly. No need to be uptight or angry.

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Colbert Report on Brain Washing of Sesame Street

Grover the Hill | November 11, 2009 | ColbertNation.com

This was great!

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

You're right. It's much more fun to be a conservative/independent of a sovereign nature and dance on the backs of the socialistically inclined whilst laughing wildly. No need to be uptight or angry.

Unless they are Muslim?

... sorry, I know that was a cheap shot, please take it as gentle teasing

olePigeon · Nov 13, 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I just don't understand how it could be at all fun to be a conservative of this nature, so uptight and angry about just about everything.

Can I blame Rap Music? I'm going to blame Rap Music.

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Can I blame Rap Music? I'm going to blame Rap Music.

It's funny out every generation has a music of "the devil". It used to be Jazz, as it was often played at brothels in New Orleans. Next up was Rock and Roll, and now it is Hip Hop/Rap.

I still call Jazz the Devil's music though, just so that I feel rebellious when I play it. It's a little harder to do with Louis Armstrong and the Big Band era though...

Doofy · Nov 13, 2009, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Unless they are Muslim?

... sorry, I know that was a cheap shot, please take it as gentle teasing

I will kill you, infidel!

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I will kill you, infidel!

I will kill you right back, hippy!

Doofy · Nov 13, 2009, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I will kill you right back, hippy!

I will kill you until you are dead, peasant!

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 06:04 PM

With what? Your frozen brocolli, hippy?

Dork. · Nov 13, 2009, 06:08 PM

If you kill besson3c, I will avenge his death by flying over the pond and bludgeoning you to death with his tuba.

Doofy · Nov 13, 2009, 06:09 PM

I have asparagus, peasant!

hyteckit · Nov 13, 2009, 06:10 PM

Go suck on some Veggietales.

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 06:10 PM

And I have all of Canada, hippy.

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 06:11 PM

I wish Obama was here. He would provide some well needed diplomacy here and help resolve this conflict.

hyteckit · Nov 13, 2009, 06:12 PM

No Canadian Bacon for you!

olePigeon · Nov 13, 2009, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

If you kill besson3c, I will avenge his death by flying over the pond and bludgeoning you to death with his tuba.

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I’m being repressed!

Originally Posted by Doofy

I will kill you until you are dead, peasant!

Oh, what a giveaway. Did you here that? Did you here that, eh? That’s what I’m on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you?

olePigeon · Nov 13, 2009, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I wish Obama was here. He would provide some well needed diplomacy here and help resolve this conflict.

besson3c · Nov 13, 2009, 06:22 PM

Would now be a good time to peddle my sex tapes?

stevesnj · Nov 13, 2009, 06:54 PM

Here is Laura Bush on Sesame Street promoting to read to Birds and monster's, also to speak silly words...

YouTube - Laura Bush on Sesame Street

Dork. · Nov 13, 2009, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

And I have all of Canada, hippy.

Unfortunately, the best weapon to fight Doofy with in all of Canada is your tuba.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Would now be a good time to peddle my sex tapes?

There is never a good time for that.

Dork. · Nov 13, 2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I’m being repressed!

Oh, what a giveaway. Did you here that? Did you here that, eh? That’s what I’m on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you?

Shut up, you bloody peasant!

ebuddy · Nov 13, 2009, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

Actually I think you missed it. The point wasn't that the Republicans ARE making a fuss about this appearance... but that it was sadly feasible they WOULD go off on any innocuous event. These are people that protest the school address, the flag pin, the way Obama breathes in and out.

Really? These same people that called Bush Sr. out for his speech in '91, then ordered the General Accounting Office to investigate by summoning Bush administration officials to Capitol Hill for a hearing on the issue while the Washington Post ran a front page story on how Bush did this for political staging? Give me a friggin' break. Whatever reprehensible lows "these people" are capable of, "those people" are capable of much lower.

Clearly, you missed it. What this means is that if you're President, you and your family will be under a great deal of scrutiny. Period. To whine about it is... well, it's whiney.

ebuddy · Nov 13, 2009, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

But why would it illogical to assume that there might be? I mean, some on the right were freaking out about Obama not wearing a lapel pin, do you remember that? There was also those little kids singing some song about Obama...

Someone on the right or left will always be freaking out. What you're calling "freaking out" is nothing compared to the scrutiny other Presidents have had to endure.

It's a heavy crown.

ebuddy · Nov 13, 2009, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Do you think that the level of Obama worship would exist if Bush was a better president? I'm not trying to twist the knife on Bush, I'm just wondering if part of this was simply a right place, right time sort of deal?

Perhaps not. Obama's "change" mantra would not have been effective had the Bush policies he's adopted been more successful.

andi*pandi · Nov 16, 2009, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Someone on the right or left will always be freaking out.

Stop being reasonable! Stop it right now!