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So, any concerns right-wingers? (Apparently none at all.) Also, is Japan a jerk? (Page 19)
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andi*pandi
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Jul 17, 2018, 07:37 PM
 
What kind of SCOTUS candidates would Putin pick? Oh wait, we already know.
     
Chongo
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Jul 17, 2018, 09:29 PM
 
Here is Vladimir’s list of SCOTUS picks.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 17, 2018, 10:00 PM
 
Chongo, why are you trolling? If you want to defy the stereotype that conservatives are not the conspiracy-addled buffoons who are completely removed from reality, you are not doing yourself any favors.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 17, 2018, 10:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Chongo, why are you trolling? If you want to defy the stereotype that conservatives are not the conspiracy-addled buffoons who are completely removed from reality, you are not doing yourself any favors.
Or that the MAGA types value trolling libs more than actual good leadership.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 17, 2018, 10:27 PM
 
I'm not really sure where to put this comment, but I think we're very close to having a prominent conservative writer or pundit float that Russian meddling in the election did less damage than a potential Hillary presidency.

The undercurrent is very obviously there with how a growing portion of republicans will ignore or justify Trump's behavior because of policy wins. I think a few more Russia revelations and we'll get someone to make the leap.
     
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Jul 17, 2018, 11:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Chongo, why are you trolling? If you want to defy the stereotype that conservatives are not the conspiracy-addled buffoons who are completely removed from reality, you are not doing yourself any favors.
Like the theory CNN and MSNBC are pushing that Trump has been a Russian asset since 1987? I like the one Maddow floated that Putin had Assad use nerve gas so Trump could order a military response.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 17, 2018, 11:21 PM
 
Deflection!
     
Chongo
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Jul 17, 2018, 11:48 PM
 
Since we’re deflecting, why didn’t Obama, Clapper, Brennan, and Comey do anything when they knew in September or earlier that Russia was meddling?

Obama knew when this press conference occurred.


I guess that doesn’t include primaries since the Democrat primary was rigged for Hillary.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 18, 2018, 01:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Like the theory CNN and MSNBC are pushing that Trump has been a Russian asset since 1987? I like the one Maddow floated that Putin had Assad use nerve gas so Trump could order a military response.
“The others are doing it, too!” is an excuse that doesn't even count for four year-olds on a playground. You are discussing with us here, not some pundit on a news network that spouts crazy ideas. It's a sign of lack of respect if you just throw these “outrage grenades”, conflate other posters here with what you imagine to be the worst version of a “liberal”, and make them come up with a reasoned response that fact checks your post. Does that give you satisfaction to troll others instead of engaging them constructively in a debate? What are you afraid of? That you won't be able to argue your opinion on a factual basis? That you won't be able to convince others anyway? So instead you will act like worst stereotype an American conservative — not interested in discussion, me-vs.-them, spouting conspiracy theories and completely unable to back up his opinions with evidence?

I'd rather not waste my time on you, so if you are not really interested in serious discussion, that's fine. I'll just ignore you like so many others here. But on the other hand, usually it is helpful to hear from people with a different background of your own, provided they are really interested in fostering a good, respectful exchange.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 18, 2018, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Since we’re deflecting
*you're
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 18, 2018, 11:32 AM
 
I do believe the swamp has, does, and will likely always exist. I've shared this story here before, but a guy in my church worked for a U.S. Congressman. He eventually resigned his position because he said, "I've been in too many closed-door meetings that have caused me to completely lose faith in the system. These are the worst people I've ever met." I don't trust any of them. Post-Snowden, that extends to the FBI/CIA/NSA.

Trump has upset the apple cart (albeit haphazardly), but I maintain that he's doing more to harm conservatism in the long-term. Watching the Helsinki debacle doesn't help my pessimism.
     
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Jul 18, 2018, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Since we’re deflecting, why didn’t Obama, Clapper, Brennan, and Comey do anything when they knew in September or earlier that Russia was meddling?
That's been answered.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/15/62928...erence-by-russ

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mi...russian-hacks/

I'm sorry I could only find a text transcript and not your preferred method of communication, a poorly-made YouTube video.
     
Laminar
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Jul 18, 2018, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Trump has upset the apple cart (albeit haphazardly),
I know it's not your thing to get dragged down into petty debates, but I appreciate that you do drop in to share your story and insight here.

I do have a couple of questions. I surmise from what you said that you were optimistic about Trump's presidency because he was an "outsider," not one of those dirty politicians.

If your measure of a person's "terribleness" is what they do behind closed doors, do you believe that Trump would live up to your standards?

Even before the election, we got a picture of what went on behind Trump's closed doors; running his various companies into bankruptcy, his Trump U scam, his sexual deviancy, especially with minors, the list goes on.

I am curious about how you were able to overlook all of that. "He may be an alleged rapist, an admitted sexual assaulter, a liar, a cheater, but at least he hasn't worked in politics before." As part of "draining the swamp," which I'm led to believe was an important part of why you voted for him, he installed grossly incompetent and oftentimes dangerous people to important positions see: Pruit, Pai. Do you think that the objectively high rate of turnover in Trump's cabinet is evidence of poor leadership or is it an inevitable part of not being a member of "the swamp" and Trump having to battle with the establishment?

but I maintain that he's doing more to harm conservatism in the long-term. Watching the Helsinki debacle doesn't help my pessimism.
What do you believe will be the long term effect on America? Do you believe that driving up the deficit will have positive or negative long-term effects? Do you believe that his efforts to deregulate business, finance, the EPA, and more will have more positive or negative long-term effects? Do you believe that the world we're leaving for our kids will be better environmentally, socially, and financially because of Trump's presidency?

Here's something I've had a long think about - if you were going to point your son to a president and say, "There. That's someone worth looking up to. There's a man who loves his family, his wife, and treats those around him with love, respect, and grace. There's someone that daily demonstrates love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, gentleness, and self-control," how far back do you have to go to find a president you can do that with? Or are those not important characteristics for a leader and/or president?
( Last edited by Laminar; Jul 18, 2018 at 12:19 PM. )
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 18, 2018, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I know it's not your thing to get dragged down into petty debates, but I appreciate that you do drop in to share your story and insight here.

I do have a couple of questions. I surmise from what you said that you were optimistic about Trump's presidency because he was an "outsider," not one of those dirty politicians.
To be honest, I don't recall ever feeling optimistic about Trump's presidency. I approached the general election with a sense of dread, as I didn't believe that any candidate (GOP/Dem/Green/Libertarian) would be a good choice.

If your measure of a person's "terribleness" is what they do behind closed doors, do you believe that Trump would live up to your standards?

Even before the election, we got a picture of what went on behind Trump's closed doors; running his various companies into bankruptcy, his Trump U scam, his sexual deviancy, especially with minors, the list goes on.
Perhaps it's due to the infrequency of my visits here that my position seems muddy, but I don't recall actually defending Trump. I had a conversation at a large conference with a group of pastors in January of 2017 warning them that if they defended Trump's behavior from their pulpits, they risked losing the respect of an entire generation for what would be rightly interpreted as blatant hypocrisy. The majority of ministers under 40 in my particular denomination agree.

Trump doesn't reflect my values, publicly or privately — I'm quite sure of that.

I am curious about how you were able to overlook all of that. "He may be an alleged rapist, an admitted sexual assaulter, a liar, a cheater, but at least he hasn't worked in politics before." As part of "draining the swamp," which I'm led to believe was an important part of why you voted for him, he installed grossly incompetent and oftentimes dangerous people to important positions see: Pruit, Pai. Do you think that the objectively high rate of turnover in Trump's cabinet is evidence of poor leadership or is it an inevitable part of not being a member of "the swamp" and Trump having to battle with the establishment?
I didn't even tell my wife who I voted for. I've had a few votes that would get me in trouble — I've been a registered independent since sometime around 2006. I think the swamp did/does need someone to shake things up, but they needed to at least be politically competent, which Trump is not.

As for Trump's misconduct, I didn't overlook his failures any more than I overlooked Hillary's badgering of Bill's alleged victims. I think conservatives will be writing articles like this about themselves in 20 years time: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/u...ct-debate.html

From The Hill:

Whatever the case, the Clintons now exist in a new reality — of their own making. In 2015, Mrs. Clinton tweeted: "To every survivor of sexual assault ... You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed. We're with you." Several months later, her campaign website scrubbed the last two sentences. Even her husband’s staunchest defenders now appear to admit they know why.
To be clear, that's not me defending Trump. That's me attacking all of them. I believe that both sides of the aisle tend to whitewash their candidates and demonize their opponents at the moment and only become reflective after it's ancient history.

I defended George W. Bush and Co's decision to invade Iraq on these very forums (as it was beginning). After enough time had passed, I realized it was a huge mistake;  a terrible misuse of the camaraderie that the nation had felt in the aftermath of 9/11. That failure to recognize faults at the moment is what caused me to try to hang up my partisan hat as best I could, though it's still difficult.

What do you believe will be the long term effect on America? Do you believe that driving up the deficit will have positive or negative long-term effects? Do you believe that his efforts to deregulate business, finance, the EPA, and more will have more positive or negative long-term effects? Do you believe that the world we're leaving for our kids will be better environmentally, socially, and financially because of Trump's presidency?

Here's something I've had a long think about - if you were going to point your son to a president and say, "There. That's someone worth looking up to. There's a man who loves his family, his wife, and treats those around him with love, respect, and grace. There's someone that daily demonstrates love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, gentleness, and self-control," how far back do you have to go to find a president you can do that with? Or are those not important characteristics for a leader and/or president?
Driving up the deficit: obvious negative.
Efforts to deregulate business: mixed.
Killing net neutrality: huge negative.
Crippling the EPA: negative.

The world we're leaving our kids? I don't credit any modern politician with that sort of power. I agree that the country should be left cleaner, safer, and kinder for our children, but did Obama do that? Bush? Clinton? As far as I can tell, there are far more destructive influences than politicians.

Trump is almost certainly the most divisive force we've ever elected President, but I think he's a reflection of our chaos — not the cause.
     
Laminar
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Jul 18, 2018, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
To be honest, I don't recall ever feeling optimistic about Trump's presidency. I approached the general election with a sense of dread, as I didn't believe that any candidate (GOP/Dem/Green/Libertarian) would be a good choice.
Sorry for misrepresenting you - I suppose it's a sign of the times that anything that's not outright disdain comes across as optimism.

To be clear, that's not me defending Trump. That's me attacking all of them. I believe that both sides of the aisle tend to whitewash their candidates and demonize their opponents at the moment and only become reflective after it's ancient history.
Care to share your thoughts on this list?

I defended George W. Bush and Co's decision to invade Iraq on these very forums (as it was beginning). After enough time had passed, I realized it was a huge mistake;  a terrible misuse of the camaraderie that the nation had felt in the aftermath of 9/11. That failure to recognize faults at the moment is what caused me to try to hang up my partisan hat as best I could, though it's still difficult.
I get where you're coming from - I've always been registered as an independent but my voting habits have changed drastically in the last 10 years. My wife's the same.

The world we're leaving our kids? I don't credit any modern politician with that sort of power. I agree that the country should be left cleaner, safer, and kinder for our children, but did Obama do that? Bush? Clinton? As far as I can tell, there are far more destructive influences than politicians.
There's a strong argument to be made that many of the issues African-Americans face in this country today can be traced to Reagan's War on Drugs and its disproportionate effects on the black community - the power is there. Trump's rollback of EPA regulations, treatment of immigrants and minorities, and endorsement of white nationalists certainly doesn't seem promising for a better, brighter future for this country. High income inequality correlates strongly with a lot of societal problems like crime, drug use, mental health issues, and more, and most of the action I see from this administration seeks to further concentrate wealth upwards and make life more difficult for those at the bottom.

Trump is almost certainly the most divisive force we've ever elected President, but I think he's a reflection of our chaos — not the cause.
Out of curiosity, to whom would you assign blame? A hysterical media? The divisiveness of the Obama administration? The changing demographics of a world that continues to globalize? Intentional acts from foreign powers?
( Last edited by Laminar; Jul 19, 2018 at 10:13 AM. )
     
Chongo
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Jul 18, 2018, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post

I'm sorry I could only find a text transcript and not your preferred method of communication, a poorly-made YouTube video.
CNN and CSPAN produce poorly made YouTube videos?
I tell you what. I'm going to take a pause from my "deflecting" until after the midterms.

Until then, here's some food for thought:
Lisa Page testified that the texts from Strzok meant what they said, contrary to Strzok's testimony.

You know World Cup ball Putin gave to Trump? It has an embedded NFC chip in it. I wonder what could be on it? Maybe it's bugged.
FIFA WORLD CUP KNOCKOUT OFFICIAL MATCH BALL
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 18, 2018, 07:23 PM
 
FWIW I've mostly read Jawbone as ambivalent on Trump and honest that policies aside, there's nothing redeeming about the man.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 18, 2018, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Trump is almost certainly the most divisive force we've ever elected President, but I think he's a reflection of our chaos — not the cause.
What is our chaos? I feel like our problem isn't chaos but the opposite – being hyper partisan, i.e., too ordered.
     
Laminar
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Jul 19, 2018, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
FWIW I've mostly read Jawbone as ambivalent on Trump and honest that policies aside, there's nothing redeeming about the man.
In hindsight I think I was projecting a bit, and probably owe JB an apology. What I see from Christians on my newsfeed and from my own family is that they need that Supreme Court nomination in order to get rid of abortion. So they end up either passively or actively supporting a lot of unrelated policy positions and defending stances not because those are beliefs they hold, but because they need to defend the party. My dad told me before the election that he was considering buying a gun because Hillary was going to take them all away. I said, "They said that about Obama, too, and gun sales have never been higher." "Yes, but this time they mean it." This is a man with a Master's degree who's well-read and well-respected believing the dumbest bumper sticker fear-mongering junk. He sat me down during my formative years and gave me the "politics talk," telling me flat out that he votes based on two issues - gay marriage and abortion. And because of that he adopts and defends unrelated policies and/or candidates that are otherwise in gross conflict with his stated religious beliefs.

So that's my baggage and that's probably why I project that on religious people that did support or still support Trump. So my apologies, Jawbone, for assuming your stance.
( Last edited by Laminar; Jul 19, 2018 at 11:39 AM. )
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 19, 2018, 10:38 AM
 
Thanks Jawbone for your perspective!
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 19, 2018, 10:02 PM
 
Inviting Putin to the WH? A few days after 'admitting' Russia meddled in the elections?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 19, 2018, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
He sat me down during my formative years and gave me the "politics talk," telling me flat out that he votes based on two issues - gay marriage and abortion.
Does he still have problems with gay marriage? Is anyone in your extended family gay or does he have any other kind of exposure to it in reality?


Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And because of that he adopts and defends unrelated policies and/or candidates that are otherwise in gross conflict with his stated religious beliefs.
Ugh, that's bad.
     
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Jul 20, 2018, 04:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
To be honest, I don't recall ever feeling optimistic about Trump's presidency. I approached the general election with a sense of dread, as I didn't believe that any candidate (GOP/Dem/Green/Libertarian) would be a good choice. [...]
That was a pretty nice, nuanced post. Can I ask you something?

Some Members of Congress have simply “resigned” (by not running again). Some notable conservative pundits have openly advocated for voting for the Democrats (either strategically to “destroy” the Trump GOP so that it can be rebuilt, but a few have switched. But I haven't seen an exodus on a large scale amongst the voter base. How do you think will American conservative voters of your stripe and others react to the “Trumpification” of the GOP? Have you personally given some thought about the best strategy for you going forward? Would you feel at home in a Democratic party that would be open to some more conservative members as well? Or would you prefer that a new party is formed?
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andi*pandi
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Jul 20, 2018, 08:19 AM
 
There's so much baggage with existing parties, and they've changed meaning over the years. time for a new party.
     
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Jul 20, 2018, 10:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Does he still have problems with gay marriage? Is anyone in your extended family gay or does he have any other kind of exposure to it in reality?
My mom's cousin has a female "friend" that she's been bringing to family functions for 20+ years. It's DADT. A good family friend for 35+ years is probably closeted (Weird! How is he still a bachelor? He's so friendly and so much fun!), denial on that one I assume. His pastor knows of 5 gay people, and one of them chose to be straight, so apparently it's a choice for everyone.

 
     
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Jul 20, 2018, 11:25 AM
 
Not playing sports made him a girl? well that must have been before Title 9.

Well there was a lot of pressure to be MANLY MEN back in the day. My dad when he was five used to walk on tiptoe, so that apparently made him a twinkletoes and they were very worried he was gay. This is the same crowd that thought the manly way to teach someone to swim was push them off the dock in deep water.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 20, 2018, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
My mom's cousin has a female "friend" that she's been bringing to family functions for 20+ years. It's DADT. A good family friend for 35+ years is probably closeted (Weird! How is he still a bachelor? He's so friendly and so much fun!), denial on that one I assume. His pastor knows of 5 gay people, and one of them chose to be straight, so apparently it's a choice for everyone.
Yikes. Tell me if I'm reaching here, but they've essentially created a safe space where reality is avoided.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 20, 2018, 01:39 PM
 
Lam, really personal question: Why do you think you broke from your father on his core values? Or was the man who raised you different from the man now?
     
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Jul 20, 2018, 05:12 PM
 
I was wondering why so far Trump has managed to keep the content of his one-on-one (apart from interpreters) meeting with Putin a secret. Surely he attended the meeting as the president of the USA, and representing its government and more importantly its people, not as Donald Trump private citizen. Would this not make the content of the meeting public record?

Surely the interpreter was also a government rather than a Trump employee and could be compelled to spill the beans? Or even subpoena Trump as the US President rather than a private individual, and force him to reveal the contents of the discussion.

Anyways... I'm sure next week will deliver something to eclipse even this magnificent performance. At least it distracts us from Brexit.
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Jul 20, 2018, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yikes. Tell me if I'm reaching here, but they've essentially created a safe space where reality is avoided.
Live in a small town, work in that small town, go to a small church, listen to Christian radio, watch Fox News. It's easy to avoid challenging your own beliefs, especially when your sources of information all give you convenient explanations for why someone would hold an opposing viewpoint, freeing you from the danger of having to actually weigh the merits of other points of view.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Or was the man who raised you different from the man now?
He got more involved in local (and by extension, national) politics as he moved into (early) retirement, but I think it's an amplification of the values he's always held.

Why do you think you broke from your father on his core values?
You could probably trace my regression into liberalism via my posts on this forum over the past 17 years. Some turning points that come to mind, by category:

"The US isn't the world's bastion of freedom and democracy"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._regime_change - The US is not a universal force for good in the world, out to promote prosperity and democracy in all nations
- I think it was this page, basically a page of charts showing strong correlations between income inequality and mental health problems, crime, gun violence, low life expectancy, infant mortality, and more, and how every developed nation is doing better than the US in basically every metric
- Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, and taking the Harvard IAT - people that don't consider themselves racist can still have implicit racial bias - racism still exists, we all probably have at least a little bit of it, and to deny the problem means you can't solve the problem

"Republican stances on social/scientific issues are baseless and wrong"
- I got married in 2009 and realized that gay people getting married didn't change anything about my marriage - "protecting the sanctity of marriage" was bullshit and conservatives' crusade to block gay marriage was baseless
- The first thing I ever saved on Reddit, current scientific consensus on climate change - I don't know exactly when my viewpoint on climate change swayed, but I do remember doing a presentation in college on why global warming was BS
- Colorado gives out free long-term birth control, abortions drop by 42%. But yeah, keep blindly voting for the candidate with the (R) after their name in hopes that one day the supreme court will get stacked and then eventually RvW will be overturned, in the meantime hundreds and thousands of fetuses are being murdered because sluts shouldn't get free birth control.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 28, 2018, 08:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Live in a small town, work in that small town, go to a small church, listen to Christian radio, watch Fox News. It's easy to avoid challenging your own beliefs, especially when your sources of information all give you convenient explanations for why someone would hold an opposing viewpoint, freeing you from the danger of having to actually weigh the merits of other points of view.
Actually I wasn't talking near that broadly. What I was referring to is the unspoken rule that the parties will not acknowledge the truth (DADT). Your family gets to avoid confronting the issue, leaving them to wallow in their beliefs and misconceptions. Ironically, it is the denigrated that are enabling this, either by caring about others discomfort or their own. I reminded of that MLK quote about moderates.
     
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Jul 28, 2018, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
- Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, and taking the Harvard IAT - people that don't consider themselves racist can still have implicit racial bias - racism still exists, we all probably have at least a little bit of it, and to deny the problem means you can't solve the problem
Amen. For all my critique of racism on these forums if you guys think I imagine myself above harboring a lot implicit bias, you are quite mistaken. It's a challenge to recognize it, let alone confront it.
     
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Jan 10, 2019, 10:43 PM
 
So, declaring a national emergency just to side-step congress and build a wall?
     
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Jan 11, 2019, 08:09 AM
 
When I want your opinion,-
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Waragainstsleep
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
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Jan 12, 2019, 05:49 AM
 
Surely it was just some asshole who'd been watching Game of Thrones?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
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Jun 13, 2019, 04:32 PM
 
Apparently it's now cool to accept random info from foreign agents. cool, cool cool, i mean why wouldn't you?

and also keep an eye on Norway, they must be up to something...
     
Thorzdad
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
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Aug 2, 2019, 05:15 PM
 
“Chariman Kim has a great and beautiful vision for his country, and only the United States, with me as President, can make that vision come true. He will do the right thing because he is far too smart not to, and he does not want to disappoint his friend, President Trump!”
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
 
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