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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Line Cutting: Car, Motorcycle, and Checkout Cheaters

Line Cutting: Car, Motorcycle, and Checkout Cheaters
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subego
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Jun 22, 2019, 10:52 AM
 
I wasn’t able to get much from the post I found it in.

It’s theorized the moron’s car “wheel climbed” the Camaro, which is what caused such a dramatic flip.

Whatever one’s opinion on lane-splitting is, this video effectively shows why it’s bad...

...to do it in a car.
     
Laminar
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Jun 24, 2019, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I am typically very much against motorcyclists lane-splitting, because it's usually done just to get ahead; it is typically a sort of a cheat.
This is such bullshit. Of course it's done to ****ing get ahead, why should a tiny vehicle waste road space in near-gridlock traffic, further exacerbating delays?

"They're cheating!" By getting out of your way? Would you prefer they solo-drive a jacked up four door diesel pickup and take up 38 feet of of the road like most of the other dumbasses out there?

The highway is not a competition.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 24, 2019, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
This is such bullshit. Of course it's done to ****ing get ahead, why should a tiny vehicle waste road space in near-gridlock traffic, further exacerbating delays?

"They're cheating!" By getting out of your way? Would you prefer they solo-drive a jacked up four door diesel pickup and take up 38 feet of of the road like most of the other dumbasses out there?

The highway is not a competition.
True. I don't give a **** if somebody else is getting ahead.

If somebody overtakes me on the right on a highway, he's putting my life and his at risk. Overtaking on the right is illegal at speeds above 80 km/h, and I drive accordingly and pull into the rightmost lane whenever I can (as legally required).

If you're piking through between two slower lanes to get ahead as a motorcyclist where I'm not expecting it (basically anything but a stillstand in a traffic jam), you're a ****ING IDIOT because any accident that happens is going to go a LOT worse for the guy without a crumple zone.

You might still scare the crap out of somebody, though.

I read a lot of "if motorcyclists snake their way through traffic in summer, please be considerate. It's hot in the leather and we're just trying to get out of the sun" posts around this time, and I keep thinking "Yeah, you know, I really get the appeal of motorcycling, but if you're choice of freedom entails endangering others and having too dress to hot for the weather you choose to ride in, maybe you're just making the wrong ****ing choices."

I do like motorcyclists, generally.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 24, 2019, 10:39 AM
 
I think it’s fair to call lane-splitting “cheating” when it’s illegal, as it is in Illinois, and I think it is in Texas.

As noted, I'm not the one who’s going to die because of it, so I don’t feel particularly cheated, but I do often feel startled.

While making lane-splitting illegal does increase congestion, it’s more ordered, and I think highways should be ordered.
     
Laminar
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Jun 24, 2019, 10:53 AM
 
I'm 100% against lane splitting when it's illegal. If drivers aren't expecting it and used to it, it's dangerous and stupid.

I'm 100% okay with being mad at motorcyclists illegally lane splitting because it's dangerous and stupid.

I'm 100% not okay with being mad at motorcyclists lane splitting because they're "cheating" and "getting ahead." "Cheating" and "getting ahead" have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with a perception that traffic is a contest, which is a mindset of the worst kind of drivers. Plus it's short-sighted and stupid - if they weren't on a bike, they'd be in a car, and your traffic jam would be that much longer.

California is the only state with legal lane splitting. The general guidelines are that traffic has to be 50mph or less and the motorcycles have to be doing at most 15mph more than the speed of traffic. The drivers are used to it and it works well. I've had no problem driving a rental car and making room for lane splitters when in California. It keeps congestion down and everyone gets where they're going quicker.
     
Chongo
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Jun 24, 2019, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Chicago... represent.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
These are hefty fines in many states, and higher when causing a crash. It wasn’t illegal in Arizona until 1998 when DPS traffic officer was struck and killed on his motorcycle assisting a disabled motorist.
https://azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2...is-not-allowed

It’s now three points on your license and a $200+ fine for crossing the gore point.
This is my exit on my drive home from work. (westbound Loop 202)

Traffic backs up for the 51 north exit, sometimes as far back as the 32nd street exit. People cross the gore point behind the pic and at the point shown in the pic on a daily basis. I have to be on the lookout for drivers crossing behind and in front, especially in front when exiting at speed. I have seen DPS place spotters on the hill on the side just once. They were pulling over drivers, and hopefully issuing tickets and not warnings. DPS needs to put spotters up there at least once a week.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 24, 2019, 11:23 AM
 
There are no reports of the reason the trailer hit the bikers, but chances are the truck driver didn't see them and changed lanes.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...fuO/story.html
     
Laminar
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Jun 24, 2019, 11:56 AM
 
Massachusetts has a helmet law for motorcyclists so I assume they were wearing some kind of helmet, but probably not a full face - it's unfortunate and another reason I was okay getting rid of all of my bikes. I can be the best rider out there and well-prepared and well-armored and alert, but I can't account for the stupidity of others on the road.
     
Chongo
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Jun 24, 2019, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
There are no reports of the reason the trailer hit the bikers, but chances are the truck driver didn't see them and changed lanes.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...fuO/story.html
This happen here nine years ago, only it was a dump truck in this case.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36040752/n.../#.XRDyS8plChA
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 24, 2019, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'm 100% not okay with being mad at motorcyclists lane splitting because they're "cheating" and "getting ahead." "Cheating" and "getting ahead" have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with a perception that traffic is a contest, which is a mindset of the worst kind of drivers.
I’m confused.

When lane-splitting is illegal, the person who is behaving like traffic is a contest is the motorcyclist who lane-splits. I feel the same way about people who shoulder-ride.

Can’t I call these people cheaters? I feel like you’re arguing somehow this makes me the asshole in this situation.

This is an entirely different question from whether it should be legal. If it is legal, calling someone who takes advantage of it a cheater does indicate some backward thinking, but I’m almost positive that wasn’t being argued.

As for whether it should be legal? That’s a giant math problem to me. In regards to the congestion variable, does lane-splitting really reduce congestion or just give an increase in throughput?

My understanding is traffic congestion always seeks a “natural” level. In other words, the space freed up by lane-splitting motorcycles will just get filled up by more cars. I have no idea how true this is. Sounds commie to me tbh.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 24, 2019, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'm 100% against lane splitting when it's illegal. If drivers aren't expecting it and used to it, it's dangerous and stupid.

I'm 100% okay with being mad at motorcyclists illegally lane splitting because it's dangerous and stupid.

I'm 100% not okay with being mad at motorcyclists lane splitting because they're "cheating" and "getting ahead." "Cheating" and "getting ahead" have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with a perception that traffic is a contest, which is a mindset of the worst kind of drivers. Plus it's short-sighted and stupid - if they weren't on a bike, they'd be in a car, and your traffic jam would be that much longer.

California is the only state with legal lane splitting. The general guidelines are that traffic has to be 50mph or less and the motorcycles have to be doing at most 15mph more than the speed of traffic. The drivers are used to it and it works well. I've had no problem driving a rental car and making room for lane splitters when in California. It keeps congestion down and everyone gets where they're going quicker.
I'm with you.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 24, 2019, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This happen here nine years ago, only it was a dump truck in this case.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36040752/n.../#.XRDyS8plChA
that's horrible.

A young man 17 just died this week, he was hit by someone making a U-turn.

~~~~~

the only reason breakdown lane car leapfrogging can be ok is if you are headed to a nearby exit. Like, visible not 3 miles away.
     
Laminar
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Jun 24, 2019, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m confused.

When lane-splitting is illegal, the person who is behaving like traffic is a contest is the motorcyclist who lane-splits. I feel the same way about people who shoulder-ride.
...if the sole goal of lane-splitting is to get somewhere more quickly. There's the additional factor of motorcyclist safety - is a motorcyclist more likely to get rear-ended in stop and go gridlock traffic, or hit by a nearby car when lane splitting? There are arguments for both cases, but some motorcyclists may legitimately believe they're lane splitting for their own safety.

Can’t I call these people cheaters? I feel like you’re arguing somehow this makes me the asshole in this situation.
You can, but that's reinforcing "traffic is a contest" vs. "let's keep everyone safe."

This is an entirely different question from whether it should be legal. If it is legal, calling someone who takes advantage of it a cheater does indicate some backward thinking, but I’m almost positive that wasn’t being argued.
I can't read ghporter's post any other way:

I am typically very much against motorcyclists lane-splitting
because it's usually done just to get ahead
it is typically a sort of a cheat
As for whether it should be legal? That’s a giant math problem to me. In regards to the congestion variable, does lane-splitting really reduce congestion or just give an increase in throughput?

My understanding is traffic congestion always seeks a “natural” level. In other words, the space freed up by lane-splitting motorcycles will just get filled up by more cars. I have no idea how true this is. Sounds commie to me tbh.
I didn't take any Civil classes in school but I've heard this from Civils before. My impression is that it applies to roads at or over max capacity. At that point, some drivers are taking alternate routes because they're quicker. If you, say, added another lane in each direction, those drivers would go back to using the main road, so the total congestion would remain the same and the extra lane would have "no effect."

Unless some people are just not driving at all because of traffic, it would have to make a difference somewhere.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 25, 2019, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You can, but that's reinforcing "traffic is a contest" vs. "let's keep everyone safe."
Is that a forgone conclusion?

I see waiting in traffic as akin to waiting in line at the grocery store. If I call someone who cuts in line a cheater, I don’t think I’m fostering competition between the other people in line.


Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Unless some people are just not driving at all because of traffic, it would have to make a difference somewhere.
Oh, absolutely... I’m just saying rather than reduce congestion it’s increasing throughput for the same level of congestion.

All those motorcycles aren’t taking space and new cars are filling in those spaces. That’s more vehicles with equivalent congestion.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 25, 2019 at 10:49 AM. )
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 25, 2019, 11:26 AM
 
Grocery store, long line for Register A. Register B opens up, and the people at the back of Line A rush and are first to Line B. Those are dirty nasty leapfrogging cheaters.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 25, 2019, 12:14 PM
 
ProTip:

When comparing the length of a line, count senior citizens as two people.
     
And.reg
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Jun 25, 2019, 12:31 PM
 
I've noticed that in the last year I've just gotten impatient and learned to use self-checkout for like 80% of my shopping. More introvert friendly that way. Machines won't judge me for buying extra toilet paper.

Edit: Wait I meant to say... ah forget it
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 25, 2019, 01:05 PM
 
I prefer self-checkout enormously, but they’re often programmed badly.

At my local Mariano’s, the “customer has not placed item in bag” flag gets tripped once you start scanning. Without fail it immediately shrieks “please place the item in the bagging area!”

I’ve said some very nasty and inappropriate things to it.

The CVS ones aren’t bad, but they’re unnecessarily chatty.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 25, 2019, 01:29 PM
 
Unless I am buying one thing, I hate self-checkout. I work a job. CVS, Home Depot, and grocery stores aren't it.
At CVS there will be 3 workers standing there watching the self-checkout to make sure no one just walks out, or to help when the machine won't read coupons... but those people can't be running a cash register instead?
     
And.reg
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Jun 25, 2019, 01:33 PM
 
They're often needed three places at once as well: self-checkout tech, bagging items, and handoffs. Rough work...
     
Laminar
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Jun 25, 2019, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I see waiting in traffic as akin to waiting in line at the grocery store. If I call someone who cuts in line a cheater, I don’t think I’m fostering competition between the other people in line.
That's cheating, because if someone cuts in line in front of you at the grocery store, it will now take you longer to get through the checkout process. Instead assume there's a separate self-checkout for people only buying one item. Instead of those people standing in front of you in line, they now walk through their own self-checkout, saving them time and saving you time. If they walk past you in order to get to the single-item self-checkout, are they cheating?
     
turtle777
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Jun 25, 2019, 02:30 PM
 
Kudos to an apt analogy.

I was going to agree with Subego, but you make a good point.

-t
     
ghporter
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Jun 25, 2019, 08:03 PM
 
Lane splitting is illegal in Texas, and given the way most Texas drivers behave, that’s a good thing.

The problem with splitting is that the cyclist doesn’t have any way to know what the motorists in the lanes they’re splitting are going to do. In stacked up traffic, having Joe Gawker open his door at the wrong time can ruin your day. In moving traffic - as we’ve seen with video examples here and elsewhere - auto operators (hard to call them “drivers” when they have no clue what they’re doing) are extremely random and thus more dangerous to the cyclist. Because of this, my catch phrase when I rode was “they can’t see you, but they’re out to get you.”

A motorcycle has huge advantages in both maneuverability and power-to-weight over an auto.* Why would anyone want to negate those advantages by squeezing in between high speed death machines piloted by blind, murder-bent idiots?

*I’ve personally avoided some nastiness ahead by being able to slip between cars (in other lanes) and exit before traffic stacks up because of an accident. I’ve evaded idiots who somehow cannot see a 6’2” me on a cruiser-style motorcycle that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM, simply by using maneuvering and power and not being there when the Mercedes passed through where I was.

As for cutting in line, that’s just a symptom demonstrating that some people never learned kindergarten basics like turn taking. Someone who habitually cuts lines probably has other antisocial behaviors as well - I say this professionally, as a psychosocial practitioner.

I’ve heard that in Cambridge, MA, express checkout workers have a blanket statement for people who bring 18 items to the “15 or fewer items” express lines. “You’re either going to MIT and can’t count, or you’re going to Harvard and can’t read.” This type of “cheating” isn’t so much intentional as negligent. It is difficult to visually estimate a quantity of items if that quantity is more than five (see here), so one must actually enumerate items to determine if their selections meet the criteria for an express line. Given that we use express lines when we’re in a hurry, most people don’t take the time to count what’s in their basket before rolling up to the checkout. Negligence, not intentional cheating, explains this pretty well.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 26, 2019, 02:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That's cheating, because if someone cuts in line in front of you at the grocery store, it will now take you longer to get through the checkout process. Instead assume there's a separate self-checkout for people only buying one item. Instead of those people standing in front of you in line, they now walk through their own self-checkout, saving them time and saving you time. If they walk past you in order to get to the single-item self-checkout, are they cheating?
I could say exactly the same thing about shoulder-riding, except shoulder-riding is even better, because it’s not restricted to motorcycles.

Is calling a shoulder-rider a cheater implying I’m in competition with them?

To be a pedant, a vehicle freeing up space behind me doesn’t get me where I’m going any faster, but I understand what you’re saying.
     
Laminar
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Jun 26, 2019, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I could say exactly the same thing about shoulder-riding, except shoulder-riding is even better, because it’s not restricted to motorcycles.

Is calling a shoulder-rider a cheater implying I’m in competition with them?
If you assume a shoulder-rider eventually gets off the shoulder and back into a lane, they're slowing you down.

It's my understanding that the shoulders are to be kept clear for moving accidents off the road and for emergency vehicles to be able to move quickly. Shoulder riders put everyone's safety at risk by stopping that from happening.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 26, 2019, 08:44 AM
 
I’m stuck today until later, but while we’re waiting, as a supplement to your reply, can I ask for an answer to my question?
     
Laminar
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Jun 26, 2019, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is calling a shoulder-rider a cheater implying I’m in competition with them?
Yes. So maybe cheater isn't the right term, maybe "selfish" and "shitty" are better things to call them?

If I shoulder-ride, I'm putting my "needs" above the needs of everyone that I eventually cut off. I'm putting my needs above the needs of anyone who potentially needs emergency assistance - if traffic is backed up because of an accident and shoulder riding drivers delay or block emergency response and someone dies, we're not talking about cheating, we're talking about being a shitty, selfish person, right?
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 26, 2019, 09:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yes.
You win.

Seriously. My original answer was the opposite and I’ve convinced myself I’m wrong.

I hope I wasn’t too annoying about it. Wrong people can be frustrating.
     
Laminar
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Jun 27, 2019, 09:10 AM
 
No! Talking though this is how I process stuff. I've definitely changed my mind as I work through explaining why I think things.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 27, 2019, 11:34 AM
 
So, it’s not good enough to admit I’m wrong, I have to explicitly detail how I’m wrong?

Tough crowd.

Today is another packed day but I’ll write the wrongs when I get back.
     
Laminar
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Jun 27, 2019, 11:51 AM
 
I meant you weren't annoying about it. I already know that my argument is flawless, no need for you to explain that.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 27, 2019, 05:48 PM
 
Oh, good. Easier for me.
     
turtle777
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Jun 27, 2019, 10:07 PM
 
Get a room already. Geez. ;-)

-t
     
   
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