[GK]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/22/pla...ted/index.html
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/22/plane_diverted.htm

[Matsu]

It's time to start bludgeoning these people to death on site.

[GK]

I hope he will be the first to have the privilege of facing the military court.

[DoctorGonzo]

I hope he will be the first to have the privilege of facing the military court.

You mean Kangaroo Court.

[TomCondon]

Kangeroo Court?

We can all see those who hate America and the west. They stick up for the Johnny Walkers and other associated terrorists before they would give the USA the benefit of a doubt. These are people who only know the emptiness of their own life and the hatred they feel for their own lack of purpose. These are the sociopathioc garbage that our society produces as waste.

I hope that the piece of crap that tried to blow up the plane gets hung from a very soft limb of a tree.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>Kangeroo Court?

We can all see those who hate America and the west. They stick up for the Johnny Walkers and other associated terrorists before they would give the USA the benefit of a doubt. These are people who only know the emptiness of their own life and the hatred they feel for their own lack of purpose. These are the sociopathioc garbage that our society produces as waste.

I hope that the piece of crap that tried to blow up the plane gets hung from a very soft limb of a tree.</STRONG>

Just because you hate America and the west, that makes you sociopathic garbage? How is that any different than hating fundamentalist christians or muslims, or hating communism?

[DoctorGonzo]

Kangeroo Court?

We can all see those who hate America and the west. They stick up for the Johnny Walkers and other associated terrorists before they would give the USA the benefit of a doubt.

When did someone's desire to see the ideals and letter of the Constitution upheld mean that the person in question hates America? The Constitution does not apply to everyone except those which we do not like. The whole point of the document is to show what is and what is not acceptable, especially in times when fear and vengeance are pervasive. "giving the USA the benefit of the doubt" seems to be analogous with allowing those in power to go to whatever lengths they believe are necessary to achieve a particular goal, no matter how un-Constitutional those methods may be, and how much of a mockery they make out of the U.S justice system and the country as whole while it is on a quest to "preserve freedom".

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: DoctorGonzo ]

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<STRONG>
When did the desire to see the ideals and letter of the Constitution upheld make someone a U.S-hater? The Constitution does not apply to everyone except those which we do not like...</STRONG>

Nope and even though the Supreme Court has said that some of our Constitutional protections apply to foreign nationals that isn't to say they all do. It's the Constitution of the U.S. not the world, DG.

You indict those on the other side of the political debate as being against the Constitution without any proof and then pretend you are defending it. How is the Constitution being violated? You appear to suffer from a false pride that the defense of the Constitution is solely up to you. All military personel swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution when they enter the service. When did you?

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]

[TomCondon]

How does hating America and the west make you sociopathic garbage?

1.) America and the west have created a society where people, especially women, have individual rights and a tangible means to secure those rights. Other competing societies, such as China, the Middle East, and Africa (to make some broad generalizations about different parts of our earth) do not have these means for the individual.

2.) Most people who display such obvious disdain for the US and the west on this discussion group are from western countries. Just like John Walker, Mr. "I am from Marin so I must be enlightened and able to make the kind of moral judgements that I would readily condemn you for. That's why I can hate you Christain and Jewish scum and join the Taliban so I can kill my fellow countrymen"

3.) People you live and benefit from the societies they condemn are sociopathic garbage.

This may seem a little simplistic, but sometimes the truth is.

[TomCondon]

More on Kangeroo Courts...

I can safely say that every signatory of the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights would insist that Mr. Walker get a speedy trial and execution.

Calling military tribunals "Kangeroo Courts" makes for some cute pro-ACLU arguments. This does nothing to secure our rights against an enemy who is disgusted by our western political and legal tradition. Join the military, fight for your freedoms, and then learn about constitutional law before make yourself feel good by condemning that which you know little about.

Oh yeah...

Free MUMIA ABU-JAMAL! He's not guilty. Must be racism. His own gun was planted at the scene. Thomas Jefferson must be turning over in his grave at the injustice!

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by TomCondon:

<STRONG>More on Kangeroo Courts...

I can safely say that every signatory of the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights would insist that Mr. Walker get a speedy trial and execution...</STRONG>

While I agree with much of your post I disagree with this. Aaron Burr did a lot more than John Lindh ever did and he wasn't executed. Fact is before we won the Revolutionary War all the founding founders were guilty of treason.

There's a good possibility that Lindh won't be tried for treason. I, for one, don't think he should even be considered an American citizen anymore. On page 4 of my U.S. Passport it says that I may lose my U.S. citizenship if I serve in the armed forces of a foreign state. He did that. If he doesn't even have U.S. citizenship, then he didn't commit treason.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>1.) America and the west have created a society where people, especially women, have individual rights and a tangible means to secure those rights. Other competing societies, such as China, the Middle East, and Africa (to make some broad generalizations about different parts of our earth) do not have these means for the individual.</STRONG>

You're assuming that your viewpoint is the correct one and the people should have these rights. This is totally a matter of opinion and contains no objective truth to it what so ever. Essentially fighting for freedom, liberty, truth, justice, the American Way, and whatnot is no different than a religious war. You are fighting to assert the dominance of your ideals over theirs and vice versa. The fact that you win more often than not proves only that your military is better. Even if you can prove that your military is better because of those rights, and therefore it is by virtue of those rights that you win, that still does not mean that these rights are something that, by nature, should belong to all people.

<STRONG>

2.) Most people who display such obvious disdain for the US and the west on this discussion group are from western countries. Just like John Walker, Mr. "I am from Marin so I must be enlightened and able to make the kind of moral judgements that I would readily condemn you for. That's why I can hate you Christain and Jewish scum and join the Taliban so I can kill my fellow countrymen"</STRONG>

Most people on this discussion group are from the west, so most people on this discussion group supporting any position will also be from the west. Who can make these moral judgments? Does making the same judgment that you do mean that a person is enlightened enough to do so?

<STRONG>

3.) People you live and benefit from the societies they condemn are sociopathic garbage.</STRONG>

People who lived in the Soviet Union condemned it, and yet accepted the food and shelter that it gave them thus "benefiting" from it. Were they sociopathic garbage because they had no choice?

[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: nonhuman ]

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by nonhuman:

<STRONG>You're assuming that your viewpoint is the correct one and the people should have these rights. This is totally a matter of opinion and contains no objective truth to it what so ever. Essentially fighting for freedom, liberty, truth, justice, the American Way, and whatnot is no different than a religious war. You are fighting to assert the dominance of your ideals over theirs and vice versa. The fact that you win more often than not proves only that your military is better. Even if you can prove that your military is better because of those rights, and therefore it is by virtue of those rights that you win, that still does not mean that these rights are something that, by nature, should belong to all people.</STRONG>

Distilling this argument down to a question of whose military is superior is no more objective than TomCondon's point of view. The idea of human rights is a western export but it has clearly taken root in non-western countries as well. You sound like a 19 century colonialist when you suggest that there are some people who can be safely forgotten when it comes to human rights.

[TomCondon]

My opinion, like everyone's, is my subjective view of the world by definition. My opinion is formed by everything I have read and experienced. I do not claim to be infalible, but I make every effort to see the truth.

I love it when the portmodern liberals amoung us become horrified when people make judgments. They want to live in a world where thay can do what ever they want without having the responsibily of making judgments or being subjected to them.

I may not be correct about what is ultimately right and wrong, but at least I am proud of seeking the truth and believing it is worthwhile to distinguish right from wrong.

[Monique]

I am sure you guys were glued to the TV when Sept. 11 happened. There are things that happened in this world that has nothing to do with the Sept. 11 terrorist attack.

When that day happened the employees of the company I worked for were all glued to the TV while I was working like crazy.

Merry Christmas to all Christians anyway.

[MikeM32]

You know it's interresting to compare something like this to the Nazi trials in Israel. These ex Nazi's were convicted of war crimes in a country they were also not citizens of, but primarily because the crimes were committed against the Jewish people. I clearly see nothing wrong with that.

That line of reasoning being that the people or country whom the crime(s) was/were committed against should have the right to try and convict those person(s). If we revoke Lindhs' U.S. Citizenship, then who holds him accountable for this?

I'm not going to debate the fairness or lack of fairness of our judicial system. I just feel that too many individuals would sooner forget the crime, and worry about how the criminal will be treated. When you remove all the religious motivations, the reasons "why" anyone would do this, the hatred for the west or whatever rediculous "motive", it's still attempted murder.

Mike

[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]

[daimoni]

.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Wow, how did this topic so seriously derail? Wasn't the topic: "Atempt to Blow up American Airlines Flight Today - Emergency landing in Boston" Or did I misread?

Yeah sure, okay, let's let Johnny Cocarane defend this guy... and prove "The shoes don't fit, so we must aquit". Or perhaps he was driven insane, by some terrible injustice done to him by US foreign policy.

According to news reports I've seen, here's what you get for attempted murder of 183 people on a passenger plane by blowing it up with a shoe bomb;

"If convicted, Reid faces up to 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine."

Wow... such a TRAMPLING of the Constitution. Truly something to get worked up over. How will we ever survive as a people, when attempted mass murder carries such a HEAVY fine as this? Such an outrage! A more appropriate sentence should be something like 5 years in prison with time off for good behavior before I can ever feel safe about our legal justice system again! Plus shave off a few more years for consideration of whatever American Foreign policy that drove the guy to do it. Tack on a 'member of a minority' consideration and shave off some time for that.

Heck, he shouldn't even do any jail time at all... let's give 'em 3 months of probation and he should have to write "I will not try to blow up any more passenger jets" 500 times, and be sent to bed without his desert for a solid 4 months. Too harsh still? We sure don't want to wear out the Constitution over this!

[crazycylon]

I wonder how many more acts of terrorism by people of Middle Eastern descent living in the US it would take before a race war erupted within the USA?

[Joshua]

Originally posted by daimoni:
<STRONG>

Remember Doctor Gonzo... you're trying to convince people whose knowledge of history dates back to the introduction of the GameBoy. Correction. The PS1.

[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: daimoni ]</STRONG>

Now that's irony, folks!

[MikeM32]

If convicted, Reid faces up to 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

20 years?!? That's friggin rediculous. And you notice that says "up to" which means he could get off on much less That is really pathetic, but he'll probably get killed in prison anyway.

I also find it disturbing how the topic gets derailed like this. It's as-if whenever someone tries to pull this kind of crap there's tons of bleeding hearts willing to justify it. As I mentionned above, peel away all the motives and you've got attempted murder of like 200 people.

Unless I'm mistaken the only justifiable motive for attempting to kill or killing anyone would be self-defense. Then it's not murder it's self-defense. No my friends this was an orchestrated attack (albeit poorly orchestrated). This had no better motive than someone being pissed off or brainwashed against my country.

I'm just glad the people on the plane had the BALLS to take matters into thier own hands. Just goes to show that some people aren't afraid to defend what they believe in.

Mike

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by crazycylon:
<STRONG>I wonder how many more acts of terrorism by people of Middle Eastern descent living in the US it would take before a race war erupted within the USA?</STRONG>

Whoops.. I left out one more crucial consideration. Rather than notice the caucasian grandmother, with her knitting needles-constructing what could have been a weapon to strangle the pilots-and wresting her to the ground, the flight attendants had to go and pick on the Middle Eastern guy. Nobody knocked out the black guy with the laptop, obviously plotting a cockpit takeover, no one noticed the Asian guy reading the newspaper- which anyone knows can be rolled up into a weapon- no one beat sensless the Hispanic girl 'pretending' to sleep, when we all know she really was getting ready to storm the cockpit before all the hubbub ensued.

Yup, clear cut case of racial profiling here, as usual.

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: CRASH HARDDRIVE ]

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by daimoni:

<STRONG>Remember Doctor Gonzo... you're trying to convince people whose knowledge of history dates back to the introduction of the GameBoy. Correction. The PS1. </STRONG>

Strange how some people think or rather, fail to think. DG makes a wild charge and is called on it and Daimoni thinks the fault lies with DG's critics.

[m a d r a]

it's a good story but how much of a threat was this?...

coming from the north of ireland, i'm completely unfamiliar with explosives but 2 thoughts spring to mind. feel free to correct me if i'm wrong as this is just conjecture....

1. it was plastic explosives. i thought plastic explosive [as a safety feature] could only be triggered electronically with a proper detonator- not by dropping, heat etc like nitro?.... so could this bloke have set off the bomb by setting fire to his trainers?

2. how much damage would have been done? they're quoting 8-10 oz of explosives on the news. presumably that's 4 in each heel?... to be lit one at a time?!!! how much damage would that do? blow out a window maybe and cause a decompression emergency and probably take the guys arms off and cause burns to those around him... but would it bring down the plane?

like i say, i'm no expert so feel free to correct me but the whole thing has more of the ring of 'keystone cops' about it- some guy sitting there trying to light his stinking training shoe- than it does of the revenge of osama and al quaieda.

[MikeM32]

I'm also no expert but my understanding is that C-4 is probably one of the most powerful Plastic Explosives in existence. I have a little U.S. Military background to sorta back that up as-well.

With enough C-4 in the shoe he could have potentially ruptured the airframe causing the plane to split apart and everyone to die. Depending on where it occurred with a mid-air decrompression the aircraft could also potentially be torn apart or unable to make it's destination also causing everyone on-board to die.

Mike

[ac2c]

C-4 is not "probably" one of the most powerful explosives - it IS the most powrful plastic explosive. There are several different "brands" of plastic explosives depending on which political block it came from during the cold war. As far as destructive force it could do one or more of several things to an aircraft in flight. Less than a pound of C-4 destroyed a plane over Lockerbe, Scotland. Depending on where the terrorist was sitting it could destroy vital air flight controls, punch a hole in the skin of the aircraft causing catastrophic decompression, destroy vital aircraft frame integrity, or punch a hole in a fuel tank causing an explosion. None of the aformentioned would help an airliner stay airworthy. C-4 by itself is quite safe and can withstand a great deal of mishandling. To set it off you must have another explosive device. This is usually a blasting cap. A blasting cap can be set off in a number of ways. In demolition work it usually is an electrical charge, but a lit fuse or det cord (a very slow but sharp explosive fuse) can also be used. Would have the explosion brought down the airplane? Probably a better than 50% chance.

It was extremely lucky that the stewardess saw and tried to stop the man and that other passengers and crew jumped in to help. The man was over 6 feet and well built and put up a fight. The crew and passengers that subdued him are, in my book at least, heroes. Without their heroic actions we probably would be looking for airplane parts in the mid-atlantic right now with some terrorist organization claiming responsibility.

[Sine]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>Kangeroo Court?

We can all see those who hate America and the west. They stick up for the Johnny Walkers and other associated terrorists before they would give the USA the benefit of a doubt. These are people who only know the emptiness of their own life and the hatred they feel for their own lack of purpose. These are the sociopathioc garbage that our society produces as waste.

I hope that the piece of crap that tried to blow up the plane gets hung from a very soft limb of a tree.</STRONG>

Amen brother.

[Sine]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>I love it when the portmodern liberals amoung us become horrified when people make judgments. They want to live in a world where thay can do what ever they want without having the responsibily of making judgments or being subjected to them.

I may not be correct about what is ultimately right and wrong, but at least I am proud of seeking the truth and believing it is worthwhile to distinguish right from wrong.</STRONG>

It's all about taking responsibilities for your own actions. It seems todays liberal is pushing the "I'm ok your ok" thought process a little too far. You killed someone? Oh you must have some emotional trauma in your life therefore your not responsible! What a sad world we will live in once one isn't responsible for ones actions.

[daimoni]

.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by daimoni:
<STRONG>

[setting knuckles on stun]

I would say that you're making yet another wild charge while again failing to think. And that fault lies squarely with yourself. So crawl back in your seething little hole, before I drop-kick you there. Again.</STRONG>

Merry Christmas to you too and what are you talking about "again"? It's always interesting to see a phony pat himself on the back.

<STRONG>As far as I can tell, NOBODY in this thread has implied that this terrorist was a nice guy, or should get off free, or any other twisted, half-baked, or wild charge as is typical of your posts. </STRONG>

And WHERE did I say anybody did? I took exception to DG's characterization of the military tribunals as kangaroo courts. That's it.

<STRONG>I think it's safe to say that we're ALL relieved (well, at least I am) that he was caught, and disaster diverted, etc. - and that he should definitely remain under lock and key until he faces a proper criminal trial.

Our bone of contention is that some of us still believe we live in America - and that we're fortunate to live in a pseudo-civilized country. Sorry to disappoint you, but his guy must go on open trial in public - with the whole world to see, not in some secret military tribunal (kangaroo court), as if we lived in North Korea, China or Iraq.

When the going gets rough, we don't throw away the judicial process to grab a rope and the nearest tall tree - we stand together as true Americans and show the world why and how this country is so great, not by goose-stepping towards infamy as some of DG's critics would have us do.

[/end smackdown]</STRONG>

Try again Einstein. Respond to my damn posts not what you think I said or meant. What do you think you are bringing to the table by claiming that all I want to do is grab a rope and head to the nearest tall tree? This is what concern for civil liberties looks like? - false charges?

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]

[roger_ramjet]

What a joke. Daimoni imagines himself to be instructing me as to how "true Americans" should respond in these times. He has a problem with military tribunals. Fine. But instead of detailing his objections he just insists they are "kangaroo courts" and that's it. I guess we're all supposed to just nod our heads like good little Germans because if you don't, he'll try and smear you.

In my second post to this thread I specifically disagreed with TomCondon when he claimed that every signatory to the Declaration of Independence would insist that John Walker Lindh be executed. I pointed out that what Lindh did wasn't any worse than what Aaron Burr did. Burr wasn't executed. I also argued that I didn't think Lindh is even a citizen anymore. I noted the conditions by which one may lose their citizenship as found on page 4 of my U.S. Passport and by my reckoning Lindh's actions meet conditions number 2 and 3. If he's not a citizen, he didn't commit treason.

None of this penetrated daimoni's brain-dead skull. Instead, he somehow concluded that I want to just lynch the guy. I guess he was too busy working up a 60 second hate to worry himself with any facts. This really wouldn't bother me all that much except that he thinks he's defending the Constitution while doing all this! I'm so grateful that the Constitution's safe-keeping doesn't depend on people like him.

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]

[anarkisst]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>Oh yeah...

Free MUMIA ABU-JAMAL! He's not guilty. Must be racism. His own gun was planted at the scene. Thomas Jefferson must be turning over in his grave at the injustice!</STRONG>

sound of de-railed thread crashing down the ravine...

MUMIA ABU-JAMAL IS GUILTY...get your head out of your myth filled ass.

Read the facts fool.

[Lerkfish]

its probably important to note that action came against the man after he tried to set his shoes on fire, not because he was of middle-eastern heritage.

One person interviewed after 9-11, when someone suggested rounding up all those of middle-eastern descent in airports, stated something to the effect of: "then they'll just use a blonde scandanavian woman. The point isn't race, its how lax security is in general".

Obviously, one does not have to be of middle eastern descent to commit acts of terrorism...they had Lindh, for example, who could have easily passed as american since he WAS american.

Stop looking at irrelevant details.