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Black Americans, Canadian Natives, Australian Natives...
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Athens
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Dec 19, 2011, 01:59 PM
 
Decided to start a new thread from the spanking one. Below the last few posts related to the subject to continue on. My hope is this does not turn into a racial bash but more a discussion about the education, economics and family problems of select groups in our societies which for what ever reason are failing.


Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It saddens me to report that the kid in the YouTube video that Shaddim posted here ... the one where his uncle was spanking him and making him disavow any gang ties and admit that all his bragging on Facebook about being a "gangsta" was fake ... was shot and killed in New Orleans recently.



Shooting death of teenage son has Terrytown mother perplexed | NOLA.com

Teen whipped in Viral YouTube Video Found Dead | EURweb

This here is precisely why I posted this earlier ....



They tried. His mother. His uncle. And the streets got him anyway.

OAW

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Can some one please explain to me what is it with American black people that its gone sooo wrong. From the prison population stats, to the school stats and the drug stats along with what you see on Cops, Bait Car and other reality shows and from what I have seen first hand in the US. It seems like a culture of violence. You don't see this from Canadian black people though you do see it with Canadian Natives. The few black people I know, some are from Cuba, Haiti, Countries in Africa and a few Canadian born blacks and one UK black Britain and none of them even remotely act or behave like Black Americans.

When I was in New York last, every single person working a low pay job, from picking up garbage, cleaning the food court in malls, MTA all black people. My Aunt married a black man in Louisiana and I visited them once and it was mostly a black community. Actually it was a all black community that they lived in. I think her and myself where the only white people for 20 miles. Super friendly people. Great cooks. very hospitable and welcoming yet they still all talked stupid like if never educated. The community itself was pretty run down but I noticed every place I went to in Louisiana was so I didn't really think of it much related to the community.

Is it really that much of a difference for education and job opportunities because of skin color or is it a victim mentality first from slavery then unequal treatment. I can understand old black Americans but the young generations, whats the reason.

Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Similarly, Maori form just 14 per cent of New Zealand's population, but half the prison population and 45 per cent of offenders serving community-based sentences. They are also grossly over-represented in statistics for domestic violence.

It is a mistake to look for a monocausal explanation. There are a whole range of causes and any number, but not necessary all, may apply to an individual case.

But a working list should include,

Disenfranchisement in a post-colonial context
The slow burn of resentment at the above
The breakdown of the family
Seeking a sense of community in gang culture to compensate for the above
Alcohol and drugs
A cyclical culture of crime and domestic violence
The influence of American hip-hop and gang culture

Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
I really don't think education constitutes much of a culture gap. Any moron can get a degree. And a lot of very intelligent people are not formally educated.

In my opinion, the main predictor for a developed intelligence is not a degree but the habit of reading, since that is tantamount to a habit of on-going self-education.

It only takes a few minutes of conversation before I can tell if someone is a reader. It is much more difficult to tell if someone has been to university.

But we should also remember that being articulate is not a good a criterion for intelligence because, while most if not all articulate people are intelligent, not all inarticulate people are stupid.


Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Has everyone forgotten the economic inequality issue? US Blacks are proportionally significantly poorer than almost all other groups (except perhaps illegal immigrants). This has been the case for a significant part of our history, and it has shaped social structures throughout the Black community. Well-intentioned attempts to address the economic issues have backfired, with a now 50-year history of reinforcing economic dependency in the poorest groups. On top of this a culture of anti-social interaction and drug distribution-based social hierarchies have pushed poor but functional families to the margins of their local social environments; i.e. hard working, intact families are ostracized by dysfunctional and drug-dealing culture-influenced groups, demotivating the children.

Asking "what happened to Black America?" is like asking "why did we get into WWII?" There are lots of reasons, and you have to go much farther back than the current appearance of specific issues to see the start of the problem.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No I think that really is the biggest issue. Because our natives are about the same and economic issues are at the heart of them too.

So as Glenn pointed out the economic challenges are a key factor in some of the issues related to crime, poor education and crappy social skills. I think part of it is a victim mentality with in the groups which keeps them down. But my new question relates to the economics again. Is it because they are poor in the first place that they suffer as a community with high crime, low education numbers and high incarceration numbers along with more general health problems such as HIV infection rates or is it because of a victim mentality or another issue that they put themselves into the hard economic situations. Is the economic problems the cause of or the result of the issues.

Its not so much a race issue or a cultural issue. The common element to these groups seems to be the oppression suffered in the past. For example Black American youths have a pretty high crime rate, a very low education level. Canadian Native youths for the most part mirror that of American blacks with music, clothing and gangster style culture. Both share in economic problems, social problems and jail. Canadian blacks for the most part are like the rest of the community, well educated well adjusted people. I don't know enough about American Indians to comment but I have never really seen anything about them good or bad.

Australia and New Zealand have native populations more similar to Canada's when it comes to economic issues and poverty. I don't know about the crime and other elements for them though.

What is it about our modern youth in these particular groups that is causing such a high proportion of failed individuals. I think the biggest factor is related to the lack of family skills and up bringing. Canadian Natives for example 60 years ago the children would be taken away from families and put into special residential homes. Those children grew up with out a proper family structure and when they had families they lacked all the skills to raise a family. And the cycle has been continuing ever since. I can't say this is the same for American blacks. But in the case of American blacks with the slavery then the 2 class societies which lasted up until the 70's in some places while different causes had similar effects. The ability to earn money required long hours at low paying jobs with kids raising themselves. At the end of the day I think both communities have issues around parenting and because of this the cycle continues over and over and over again even though its been decades since residential homes and segregated societies ended. What started out as "The white man causing" has turned into a cycle of self inflicting.

My only solution is to start with the kids, because you can only do so much for a failed adult. To correct these issues a lot of focus needs to be put on the children of the current generations to break the cycle. The cost of not doing so will be far higher with crime rates, jail, lack of productivity, welfare and healthcare.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
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Dec 19, 2011, 02:34 PM
 
Good thread. Always an interesting topic with interesting replies - look forward to reading later.
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el chupacabra
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Dec 19, 2011, 08:06 PM
 
There's several compounding components in this issue; long term cultural poverty, racism and drugs.

I'll start by using myself as an example. When I was a kid I was extremely poor. From the time I was 5 I spent most of my time working. In the summer going into the forest to get free wood, cut it up, and store it. Growing our own food. Simply weeding the place several days a week. On Sundays it was cutting coupon day to save 4 cents here and there. Point is money became very important to me. Whenever I'd ask to buy something from the parents, it was "no. no. no. Cost too much". We owned very few things. In circumstances like this even small amounts of money become very valuable to you. And as a kid, who the whole world is new and there's all these new things out there, even the lamest things have value to you.

So I became a thief. I would break into people's sheds by their house. If the shed looked unkempt I would use that as an excuse, "oh they must not care about it, the stuff inside must be forgotten about". Me and my friends would find cracks and them use a hammer to break in the side and steal everything. We didnt go in the door because to us that would be breaking and entering and by just going in a "crack" we were fine. If someone left something sitting somewhere I would think "they forgot about it, its now mine". I would go to the lost and found and take everyone's stuff; as I got used to this I would go to the lost and found at lunch and steal stuff off people's desks in the office. I always had a justification for myself, I didn't think this was wrong for a minute. We'd go the store and practice taking stuff out of the packaging. One day I'd go and open the packaging a little then set the item on the shelf behind everything, next day I'd go and open it a little more, next day practice sliding my hand in and pulling it out, I'd always make sure to be real obvious about how I was leaving the store with nothing in my hands in case anyone saw me trying to open it. Then one day I'd come in and quickly pick up the box and have item out in a second and in my pocket. I would steal anything; but not out of anyone's house. My friends and I would compare and trade items, other items we'd sell or keep for ourselves.

Why was I a member of the disgruntled youth? Well I had been conditioned to view these things as extremely valuable. To me it was like "Wow I just got this new electronic that worth $40", it could be something as stupid as a pager, tape or calculator. And on top of that kids crave excitement and adventure, usually which comes from conflict. It could be argued even adults crave conflict, the movies with the most conflict are the highest grossing, because movies provide a way for people fantasize about conflict driven adventure without any of the risk. As kids in a boring, safe, world, we create our own conflict/adventure. There's a lot of adrenaline/suspense involved while you steal stuff; then run from the cops etc.. I would also seek out fights, I would watch movies and try make my life like that. We didn't refer to ourselves as gangas or anything; but the parents would refer to us as street kids. I stopped all this about the time I was 14, which may have had to do with a change in school zoning that put me in the middle class school; and I lost all my old friends.

With many of the blacks you have observed in the US, being gansta has become a cultural phenomenon. Even with all the blacks I work with who make 6 figure salaries, when work is over, on goes the long brightly color shirt down to the knees, the backwards cap and the basketball shoes. Now days you don't have to be poor to be part of club gansta. You see much of what you think is cool as a kid, is what your going to think is cool as an adult, minus child like hobbies of course. One guy I knew is worth about 15 mil, works as a director for a large oil company, and still lives in the hood, pretending to be hood. His neighbors don't even know what he does or that he's not poor.

There's another wrench to throw in the matter; back in my day we didn't have drugs all over the streets so cleaning up our act was an easy ordeal. What you have now days is black people who weren't good at school and knew white society wouldn't accept them easily, if at all, have resorted to what makes them instant riches, drugs. So black people are selling drugs to black youth, who in turn don't have money to support their drug habit so they resort to more crime/stealing than before. Now days people break into your car just for change in the console because anything counts when it comes to supporting a habit. Then there's the racial component. In the south US, whitey doesn't want to live in a black neighborhood; as blacks move in whites move out, look up "white flight". I know a lot of people will hate me for saying this but the fact is the south is still very racist; this is a place where blacks can still stop by a gas station or restaurant and be told "your not welcome here leave". Other white people don't want to live near blacks because they're afraid they'll stand out as "easy targets" in such a neighborhood.

The solution is simple. You see there is no government for all practical purposes in many of the hoods. People get welfare checks but thats it. Complete anarchy. In rich southern neighborhoods we pay extra to the police force to have cops sitting at our neighborhood entrances at all times. My neighborhood has a wall around it and only 3 ins/outs. If the government did it's job, patrolling the hood, which it's suppose to do with tax payer money, and cracking down on drugs then there would be no problem. But here in the US government doesn't do it's job unless you pay first in taxes then sign up to pay an extra service fee, like my neighborhood does. I use to live in the hood and one time 20 gangstas came and stripped the neighbor's car right in front of all of us in broad daylight. We called the police who made sure not to show up for 2 hours. It's amazing the ghettos function as good as they do, in a place where cops only come when once all danger has done what its going to do, and left.
     
Athens  (op)
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Dec 19, 2011, 08:56 PM
 
I wont argue about how racist the US still is. Even in the northern States its more racist then I would have expected. What was the family component to this? I mean did your parents know what you did. Did they work all the time leaving you alone a lot. If your parents had more money do you think you would have still done everything you did. Sounds like it was a peer aspect to some of it not just lack of money.
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Dec 19, 2011, 11:55 PM
 
Yes there is peer aspect to it. The lack of money is just the seed of it all. Financially strained parents need to be creative, and careful with how they raise their kids, knowing this. Rather my parents were arrogant and overconfident, some of the good kids I'd hang out with my parents would ban me from hanging with saying they were bad influence; but kids who really were bad fooled my parents into thinking they were good.

They didn't leave me alone a lot. I didn't want to hang out with them anyway. I just lied, said I was going to the movies or something parent approved and would go do something else. The only thing they could have done was get me more involved in other activities. When I went to high school it seemed most the middle class kids there had been kept busy their childhood with water sports in the summer, skiing in winter, school sports, playing music, church youth groups, cable TV etc.. Some of that stuff costs a lot like skiing, but probably not so much most parents couldn't budget it in. Kids definitely shouldn't be left to make their own fun. There is some truth the to proverb "it takes a village to raise a child"; problem is we have been designed to be too individualistic a society in order to slow down decent.
     
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Dec 20, 2011, 07:30 AM
 
Black Americans were, to soften the facts, "imported," while Australian and Canadian natives are, well, native. For a better comparison, look at how we have historically treated Native Americans, and the "less toxic" way we in this supposedly enlightened age have tried to undo all of that. None of it has worked... An oppressed and marginalized population can never be "unmarginalized" by the descendents who marginalized them. They have to break out of that mold themselves. Unfortunately, the most common success story isn't based on social equality as much as "social integration."

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Dec 20, 2011, 08:43 AM
 
Excellent points Glenn, but this doesn't explain the decline of the American black family in just the past 40 years. The crux of the problem IMO is socio-economic and the perpetuation of poverty through the single-parent family. It doesn't take a village as much as it just takes two, dedicated parents. I blame we men as in many respects we've bought into the notion that "they'll be fine without us".

To men: They won't be fine without you. They're worse off without you and your children need you. BTW, this goes for all races as poverty is cyclical and leads to lowered standards and increased hopelessness; kids growing up believing success and prosperity aren't theirs for the taking. Without your acceptance, direction, and protection, your children will seek these critical factors of upbringing from other kids without acceptance, direction, and protection. As a result, their exposure to anything that might lift them up will be limited by the only source of acceptance they have and... misery loves company.

It's important to remember that while black males are incarcerated at higher rates than whites and there are a host of reasons for this both fair and unfair, the substantial majority of black males will not see time behind bars and there is no "criminal element" or propensity for crime among them. The determinant of crime is socio-economic, not racial. Not only do whites at times harbor stereotypes against blacks and absolutely need to shirk them, blacks at times exhibit these stereotypes against and among themselves. Success and prosperity is yours for the taking regardless of background, but to your point Glenn they've got to be exposed to realistic examples of moderate, middle class prosperity and the subsequent, drama-free existence. What you referred to as "integration". While "normal" has become a bad word, kids need exposure to intact families to see that it is not "selling out" to expect and attain a higher standard for yourself. This is normal, healthy, and necessary.

All "feel-good" stuff no doubt and there is no panacea of course, but statistics show exponentially greater prosperity among those whose families remain intact. Again, men of all races; they're not fine without you. Go back home. In the meantime Moms, get your kids as actively involved in as many sports, music programs, and extra-curricular academic programs as you can because if Dad's not around, it does take a village.
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Dec 20, 2011, 09:27 AM
 
ebuddy says it very eloquently, but I want to echo the thought that blaming slavery for modern inner-city black dysfunction is quite shortsighted.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Dec 20, 2011, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Excellent points Glenn, but this doesn't explain the decline of the American black family in just the past 40 years.
The civil rights movement was only 10 years prior to the time frame you're discussing.

I think you expect too much from society. The "we have a ****** for a president" contingent aren't even dead yet.



Edit: I know I've said this before, but it really bugs me that ****** is censored. If I use that word, it should be there for all to see and judge whether I'm being appropriate.
     
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Dec 20, 2011, 12:59 PM
 
My man ebuddy summed it up perfectly. It's fundamentally a socio-economic issue. Having said that, there is a "mentality" component that is also involved. So in consideration of that angle I must push back against the fundamental premise of the OP that there is some sort of problem with "black people". Because that's really not the issue at all. This here paints a picture of what I mean far better than I could relay in a detailed post.

Chris Rock - Black People VS. Niggaz (Bring the Pain 1996) - YouTube

An absolutely classic routine where the comedic elements as well as the social commentary comes together just right.

OAW
     
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Dec 20, 2011, 03:28 PM
 
I think Education might play a role too. It seems the worst off populations are those with the least amount of schooling which can be part of the economics issue. I would like to point to a population that was absolutely devastated in the last 50 years and to look at the success they have had since. Jewish people lost everything. They got rounded up, murdered, families broken up all assets taken away and left homeless and sick by the end of World War 2. Yet the community which was highly educated came out of it strong. They rebuilt the families. They reacquired wealth. They built a freaking country. And the only things I can think of that allowed for that is a strong faith in religion and a well educated people. And a intact sense of community.

I think the problem people (Blacks and Natives and whatever other marginalized populations insert country here) suffer from the lack of education. The lack of community, self identity and hope or purpose. It also seems to be when they are grouped together the failings are most apparent. What I mean by that it appears mostly a Hood problem in the US. In Canada its mostly the reserves. Its when they are together as a group, and mostly abandoned as well they seem to fail the most.

I think the lack of money of course is what causes the lack of education. So it still comes down to a socio-economic issue but I think its a full circle issue. Lack of money = lack of schooling. Lack of schooling = Lack of money. Lack of both = Drug Abuse and other problems.
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Dec 21, 2011, 08:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The civil rights movement was only 10 years prior to the time frame you're discussing.

I think you expect too much from society. The "we have a ****** for a president" contingent aren't even dead yet.
I don't expect much at all from this segment of society, they are what they are. I expect a lot from the rest of us who are not defined by them. The minority of racists among us couldn't lament the election of a black man for President of the United States of America unless the majority among us voted him in. Right? I think your statement is defeatist.
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Dec 21, 2011, 08:08 AM
 
That "last 40 years" ebuddy mentions is actually very important. It's the basic length of time that the Federal government has actively tried to "impact poverty" through public housing (concentrated and segregated from "nice" society) and Welfare. In the mid 1960s, my family was VERY poor; my parents were out of work for about a year and we hadn't been particularly well off before that. We were on "relief," which basically translated to food assistance with surplus foods like powdered milk, peanut butter, cheese and a few others. We had to move in with my mom's parents, too. No "food stamps," no "here's a basically free place to live," and so on. Aside from the Depression-era work ethic my parents grew up with, it hurt to get government help, and it only barely let them scrape by. Compare that to the kind of monetary food programs and housing assistance programs in place today. No encouragement to get out and work (you make just a little real income and you lose assistance), no motivation to do better because you're living in your parents' basement with three kids... Those "well intentioned" programs I mentioned earlier are at the heart of this trend. Not the whole problem, but they certainly pointed the trend in the direction it's going.

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Dec 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
 
That pretty much mirrors what goes on with our Natives through the reserves. They get free education yet don't use it, are in free housing but in concentrated and segregated form and get massive tax benefits among other things. I grew up dirt poor, my mom was on welfare much of my childhood. We had little help and it was not until the system got life time limits in place in the 2000's that my mom finally got forced off it and ended up working. The "well intentioned" programs do as much hard as they do good. Its a double edge sword.
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Dec 22, 2011, 08:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
That "last 40 years" ebuddy mentions is actually very important. It's the basic length of time that the Federal government has actively tried to "impact poverty" through public housing (concentrated and segregated from "nice" society) and Welfare. In the mid 1960s, my family was VERY poor; my parents were out of work for about a year and we hadn't been particularly well off before that. We were on "relief," which basically translated to food assistance with surplus foods like powdered milk, peanut butter, cheese and a few others. We had to move in with my mom's parents, too. No "food stamps," no "here's a basically free place to live," and so on. Aside from the Depression-era work ethic my parents grew up with, it hurt to get government help, and it only barely let them scrape by. Compare that to the kind of monetary food programs and housing assistance programs in place today. No encouragement to get out and work (you make just a little real income and you lose assistance), no motivation to do better because you're living in your parents' basement with three kids... Those "well intentioned" programs I mentioned earlier are at the heart of this trend. Not the whole problem, but they certainly pointed the trend in the direction it's going.
KABOOM!

I avoided getting too political on this point as it's something I've railed on in the past, but it was good to see this. Government is replacing the tangible contributions of fatherhood while incapable of producing the much more important intangibles. This is leading men to believe they're not necessary in the household and nothing could be further from the truth.
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Dec 22, 2011, 11:41 AM
 
Blaming history for these issues is paradoxical.

Consider.

Maori say, "We are where we are because you took our land and imposed your culture upon us." In other words, they shift the blame to history and insist that white settlers be held responsible for their actions.

Clearly, this is a double standard. If historical circumstances are the cause of the maori predicament, then they are also the cause of colonialism. And in that case, no one is responsible and there is nothing left to do but sit back and watch the clockwork universe unwind.

But there is something else which needs to be taken into consideration:

The Pygmalion effect refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the expectation placed upon people, often children or students and employees, the better they perform. This effect was seen during Jane Elliott's blue-eyed versus brown-eyed discrimination exercise, where third graders were divided based on eye color. One group was given preference and regarded as "superior" because of their eye color, with the other group repeatedly being considered inferior in intelligence and learning ability. On the second day of the experiment, the groups were completely reversed, with those oppressed against one day being regarded as superior the next. Elliott gave spelling tests to both groups on each day of the experiment. The students scored very low on the day they were racially "inferior" and very high on the day they were considered racially "superior."
If this is a real phenomenon then questions of historical determinism become irrelevant and the whole problem needs to be recast.

Why? Because even if colonialism is not to blame for the problems faced by Maori, the fact that they believe it is, and that white people suspect it is, constitutes a crucial psychological disadvantage with real world consequences.
     
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Dec 22, 2011, 11:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
KABOOM!

I avoided getting too political on this point as it's something I've railed on in the past, but it was good to see this. Government is replacing the tangible contributions of fatherhood while incapable of producing the much more important intangibles. This is leading men to believe they're not necessary in the household and nothing could be further from the truth.
Don't put too much behind "leading men to believe they're not necessary...". It seems to be more of a pragmatic thing. With a single parent, there is a particular level of monetary support involved that is higher than what is provided for couples. Men have generally never thought of themselves as "necessary" to a household, so much as being a substantial part of the household. However, there is now a culture that involves women seeing men as disposable because mothers are the ones who get WIC, food assistance, and so on. In my opinion, this has led to women in these parts of society being less choosy about males because they never intend to keep them around permanently.

And I'm not aiming at politics with these statements. That political ship has sailed and we are left with the flotsam. It isn't something a new political program can ever hope to fix; this will take social movements and decades. But we must recognize where the roots of a problem lie before we can dig 'em out and truly solve the issue.

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Dec 23, 2011, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Don't put too much behind "leading men to believe they're not necessary...". It seems to be more of a pragmatic thing. With a single parent, there is a particular level of monetary support involved that is higher than what is provided for couples. Men have generally never thought of themselves as "necessary" to a household, so much as being a substantial part of the household. However, there is now a culture that involves women seeing men as disposable because mothers are the ones who get WIC, food assistance, and so on. In my opinion, this has led to women in these parts of society being less choosy about males because they never intend to keep them around permanently.

And I'm not aiming at politics with these statements. That political ship has sailed and we are left with the flotsam. It isn't something a new political program can ever hope to fix; this will take social movements and decades. But we must recognize where the roots of a problem lie before we can dig 'em out and truly solve the issue.
I should've qualified "IMO" after dovetailing from your point. I'll preface the remainder of this with IMO.

When it comes to discriminating partners, there are a wealth of contributing factors, particularly in the last 40 years that might begin to explain the lack of discernment and the odds of selecting a crappy guy, but I have to think most women who decide to go forward with childbirth in this day and age want a man in their lives and that the "disposable male" from the female perspective is not the prevailing condition here. (outside Hollywood of course) If the man is not around to fulfill his financial obligation, he misses out on all the parental opportunities that most men as members of a household would assume naturally from simply being available. Their presence can be influential in something as subtle as the difference between how men and women even hold a child, through disciplinary action and the Fear of God factor fathers inherently wield, to the varying perspectives in directing and encouraging children. While we might agree that men have been marginalized to some degree, I think the system has perpetuated this perception more than women. Men have to rise above it to know their presence in their child's life is necessary.

I agree there's likely no "program" that is going to fix this and it is perhaps this view that has gotten us into trouble, assuming there is some program that will fix societal ills. IMO, less programs might help, but we'd agree that progress here is decades in the making and there is no panacea.
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Location: Tampa, Florida
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Dec 23, 2011, 11:15 PM
 
Lack of interbreeding prevent the colorization of the upperclass and the whitification of the lower class. Hollywood perpetuates this by inducing a 100% de facto inbreeding culture, including a pertpetuation of vices and expectations.
     
ebuddy
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Dec 24, 2011, 12:50 PM
 
Merry Christmas to all my Black American, Canadian Native, and Australian Native friends.
ebuddy
     
The Godfather
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Jan 22, 2012, 09:16 AM
 
Sixth paragraph from the end of this editorial:
Charles Murray on the New American Divide - WSJ.com
No quote because you can click that link above
Lack of intermingling and cross-pollination of ideas and values between the prosperous and the non-prosperous is going to perpetuate the status quo _FOREVER_.
     
The Godfather
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Jan 24, 2012, 02:26 PM
 
Should Obama nationalize BET and run it with Bill Cosby?
     
   
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