[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Compassion? What?

Nevermind. (if you didn't get it, doesn't matter).

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

What's ironic about that?

See my first answer. [apparently, even bold text and the use of color doesn't provide enough clues.] Why even bother asking those question anyway? Like you *care* what the answer is? Or are you simply digging for more "points" to argue?

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

They make the nib file designable - i.e. able to be opened and edited. It's not garbage, it makes the nibs possible to open. Without those files, they'll just give an error message if you try to open them.

First off, it would be nice if you ran that command so i (we) can see the amount of space devoted to designable.nib files on your HD. Second, please tell me (us) this: when will anyone here be opening any designable.nib inside Mail.app, iChat.app, or iWeb.app? (etc., etc).

It's amazing the level at which you choose to discuss matters. You let your opinionated viewpoint cloud common sense. Really Charles... when will any end user ever, EVER need to dork around with a designable.nib in any Apple package?

To the engineers in Cupertino, they are golden. To us (who download them, store them, and back them up...) they're garbage. Please try to keep it real. The use of half-truths just to maintain the appearance of "winning" doesn't help to educate readers.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

So basically, you intentionally made no sense at all instead of making a point, just to be confusing. Okay...

My strange reply there was (what seemed to me) an appropriate response to that mini-rant of yours about ResEdit and OS9. You act like you're making "sense"... but the context is so narrow it's really just time wasting. [Open and edit designable.nibs? Do tell.] It's a shame... we could actually communicate much better if you didn't revert to playing this game (virtually every single time).

[CharlesS]

Most of your post is made up of personal attacks and not worth replying to, so:

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

[SIZE="1"]First off, it would be nice if you ran that command so i (we) can see the amount of space devoted to designable.nib files on your HD. Second, please tell me (us) this: when will anyone here be opening any designable.nib inside Mail.app, iChat.app, or iWeb.app? (etc., etc).

You already did that the last time this "discussion" came up. Your figure was, IIRC, something between 100 and 200 MB, an insignificant amount (my VM swap files alone are 5 GB right now).

Really Charles... when will any end user ever, EVER need to dork around with a designable.nib in any Apple package?

This also came up the last time this stupid topic came up, and the answer is that it makes things very easy for localizers. Mine use a program called iLocalize to assist with localization, which requires you to provide an app bundle to localize, and which fails if the nibs inside the bundle can't be opened. Without making the nibs openable, I'd have to make two separate versions of the app, which would be doable but not worth the tiny amount of space it would save. It would also prevent my localizers from being able to quickly go "this final candidate or release build has a mistake in it, here's the corrected nib file," which keeps things nice and efficient.

What you may not realize is that Xcode actually leaves those designable.nib files out by default, so if you see them, it means that the developer consciously changed that setting in Xcode.

You will, I'm sure, be happy to hear that according to rumor, Snow Leopard is supposedly leaving out the designable.nib files in the default installation, in an attempt to slim the OS down to make it better suited for low-storage applications such as the iPhone. I can't verify that as I don't have Snow Leopard, but if it's true I'm sure you'll just find something else to whine about (oh no! my OS is designed so that people from other countries can use it too!).

My strange reply there was (what seemed to me) an appropriate response to that mini-rant of yours about ResEdit and OS9. You act like you're making "sense"... but the context is so narrow it's really just time wasting.

My point was that the only reason you're going on this crusade is because the localizations can be deleted. They don't take up enough space to cause a problem, and it doesn't really fix anything to delete them, but since they can be deleted without breaking the app then they must be deleted, as they are utterly worthless "garbage" that it is an atrocious violation of human rights and "compassion" to include in there - after all, no one speaks any language other than English, do they? If you couldn't see them or easily delete them, as was the case in OS 9, you would have no problem with them whatsoever, because they are not causing any sort of problem.

One more post like that, and you're going back on my ignore list.

[Chuckit]

Keep it civil, guys. There's no need to personally attack other posters over a nib file. If somebody's getting under your skin, walk away and take a breather before you respond.

[MacTheRiverRat]

Question- If one installs Macaroni can it hurt anything in 10.5.6?

[CharlesS]

I doubt it would hurt anything (although I've been surprised in the past - see the example with Monolingual stripping out "useless garbage" PPC binaries that turned out to be required for Rosetta to work), but it also won't do much for you unless you have a need to run custom periodic tasks on an older version of Mac OS X.

[MacTheRiverRat]

Some have suggested Onyx . Maybe what I should have asked @ the beginning of this thread was " What are the proper maintenance procedures in 10.5?

In ibook 10.4.11 I used Macjanitor every sunday and once a every other week I checked disk utilities and verify disk and permissions.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by MacTheRiverRat 

Some have suggested Onyx . Maybe what I should have asked @ the beginning of this thread was " What are the proper maintenance procedures in 10.5?

In ibook 10.4.11 I used Macjanitor every sunday and once a every other week I checked disk utilities and verify disk and permissions.

You sure wasted a lot of time.



Proper maintenance procedures in 10.5:

Use your computer.


The end.


(Oh, and Welcome to Macintosh, Windows switcher.)

[MacTheRiverRat]

Are U always with the negative waves?

http://tinyurl.com/4ofc7y

[CharlesS]

His tone may be a little brash, but what he says is pretty much accurate - you don't need to worry about "maintenance" on 10.5. Just use your computer, and you'll be fine.

[Spheric Harlot]

That was completely disarming.

My apologies for the tone, and sorry about the switcher bit.


Seriously, though: Just use your machine, and don't worry about maintenance. It's on cruise control.

[MacTheRiverRat]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

His tone may be a little brash, but what he says is pretty much accurate - you don't need to worry about "maintenance" on 10.5. Just use your computer, and you'll be fine.

Yes his tone was a little brash IMHO! Who knows maybe he's having a bad day,week or month.

But thanks for the heads up Charles!

[MacTheRiverRat]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That was completely disarming.
My apologies for the tone, and sorry about the switcher bit.

Seriously, though: Just use your machine, and don't worry about maintenance. It's on cruise control.

Apologies accepted ! Don't worry about it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by MacTheRiverRat 

Yes his tone was a little brash IMHO! Who knows maybe he's having a bad day,week or month.

I've been home, sick, for the past few days.

[ghporter]

Mary Poppins would be a royal pain if she were home sick! But as both SH and CharlesS have said, 10.5 needs no real attention to keep it running properly. And certainly none of the extensive work Windows requires!

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Your figure was, IIRC, something between 100 and 200 MB, an insignificant amount (my VM swap files alone are 5 GB right now).

Wow... do you backup your swap files? Most people don't bother.

Consider too that: every time designable nibs change, Time Machine will dutifully preserve the old ones and then backup the new ones. (10.5.0, 10.5.1, 10.5.2, 10.5.3, 10.5.4, . . . ). Lovely.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

This also came up the last time this stupid topic came up, and the answer is that it makes things very easy for localizers. Mine use a program called iLocalize to assist with localization, which requires you to provide an app bundle to localize, and which fails if the nibs inside the bundle can't be opened. Without making the nibs openable, I'd have to make two separate versions of the app, which would be doable but not worth the tiny amount of space it would save.

Yes, two separate versions: one for development and one for release. That makes sense.

However, I don't see what "you and your developers" have to do with Mail.app, iChat.app, iWeb.app, etc. *Those* (and others like them) are the "Apple" packages to which I specifically referred. You seem to be the one trying to personalize this into being about Pacifist. (That discussion didn't even take place at MacNN, so i'm not sure why you raised it in this context).

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It would also prevent my localizers from being able to quickly go "this final candidate or release build has a mistake in it, here's the corrected nib file," which keeps things nice and efficient.

False. They would (should) be working on a developer release, so you statement is wrong: they would not be "prevented" from doing what you say. [again you stray from reality, for dramatic effect.]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

What you may not realize is that Xcode actually leaves those designable.nib files out by default, so if you see them, it means that the developer consciously changed that setting in Xcode.

Probably someone just forgot to change it back before building the final release. (unconscious sloppiness more likely).

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

You will, I'm sure, be happy to hear that according to rumor, Snow Leopard is supposedly leaving out the designable.nib files in the default installation, in an attempt to slim the OS down to make it better suited for low-storage applications such as the iPhone.

That does sound good to me, but such news must be quite distressing for you... considering you have curmudgeonly deemed the whole thing a "stupid" "pointless" topic.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I can't verify that as I don't have Snow Leopard, but if it's true I'm sure you'll just find something else to whine about (oh no! my OS is designed so that people from other countries can use it too!).

That unnecessary prediction is highly erroneous... and reflects a lack of understanding which has permeated your every post. I am not -- nor have I ever been -- against localizations. If you looked at my rsync filter on page 1, you can see I preserve Swedish (and English). What I've pointed out these past few posts was the lack of control afforded us users (vis-à-vis Installer.app) to minimize installing unnecessary localizations. Your statement there about what I will "whine" about demonstrates you still don't get what we've *been* discussing.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

One more post like that, and you're going back on my ignore list.

As if you've sincerely been paying attention anyway.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Wow... do you backup your swap files? Most people don't bother.

Not sure exactly what that has to do with anything.

Consider too that: every time designable nibs change, Time Machine will dutifully preserve the old ones and then backup the new ones. (10.5.0, 10.5.1, 10.5.2, 10.5.3, 10.5.4, . . . ). Lovely.

It will also back up everything else. So what?

However, I don't see what "you and your developers" have to do with Mail.app, iChat.app, iWeb.app, etc. *Those* (and others like them) are the "Apple" packages to which I specifically referred. You seem to be the one trying to personalize this into being about Pacifist. (That discussion didn't even take place at MacNN, so i'm not sure why you raised it in this context).

I don't develop Mail.app and iChat.app. I write about what I know. It's not too great a stretch to imagine that there may be similar arrangements with those apps as well.

False. They would (should) be working on a developer release, so you statement is wrong: they would not be "prevented" from doing what you say. [again you stray from reality, for dramatic effect.]

Do you know what a release candidate build is?

Probably someone just forgot to change it back before building the final release. (unconscious sloppiness more likely).

Perhaps, but it's been that way fairly consistently for over seven years now.

That does sound good to me, but such news must be quite distressing for you... considering you have curmudgeonly deemed the whole thing a "stupid" "pointless" topic.

Not distressing, as I don't care one way or another. It's a non-issue.

That unnecessary prediction is highly erroneous... and reflects a lack of understanding which has permeated your every post.

...

As if you've sincerely been paying attention anyway.

I'm getting really sick of this BS, and am not likely to respond any further to this (which has gone off-topic already). Consider yourself reported, and back on my ignore list.

[Hal Itosis]

originally Posted by Hal Itosis:
Wow... do you backup your swap files? Most people don't bother.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Not sure exactly what that has to do with anything.

Why am i not surprised?

I asked that question to find out if there was some relevance in your having brought up swapfiles. Swapfiles are unavoidable albeit functionally *essential* system objects with a purpose, which typically never get backed up (btw). Otoh, designable.nibs are both avoidable and absolutely useless (to end users), which do normally get backed up... unfortunately. The general sub-topic here which has emerged deals with unnecessary files that waste space. So -- if a useless file winds up getting backed up -- that effectively doubles its wastefulness.

However... swapfiles don't fall into either category (useless or backed up), and therefore are not "wasteful" (in the ordinary sense). Thus, those two critters are as different as night and day... and swapfiles really have no place in this discussion (comparatively speaking) just because they're big. But, *you* were the one who brought up swapfiles in the first place. So if any explanatory exposé is needed concerning them, it's not really up to me. (i merely asked if you backed them up, since that wouldn't surprise me at this point).

originally Posted by Hal Itosis:
Consider too that: every time designable nibs change, Time Machine will dutifully preserve the old ones and then backup the new ones. (10.5.0, 10.5.1, 10.5.2, 10.5.3, 10.5.4, . . . ). Lovely.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It will also back up everything else. So what?

"So what?" he says. [and i'm all too happy to answer, sincerely.]

Hopefully, that "everything else" there refers to useful files. So let's say that each version of Leopard has roughly 300 megs of (useless) designable nibs, okay? If a user started with Mac OS 10.5.0, then -- by the time Time Machine backs up 10.5.6 -- the amount starts to reach 2 gigabytes of gunk. Useless, space-wasting gunk... seven times over (0 thru 6). Even if the conservative value of 200 MB is used, we're still talking about over 1 gig of dross. Apparently this doesn't phase you in the least... but some folks find such extravagant inefficiency offensive.

So . . . THAT'S what.

Digital waste production is not a "non-issue" to everyone. To the average user, less junk means backups can run quicker or perhaps there's more room for music on their HD. And the canned "solution" of telling everyone to buy more disks sadly serves to further encourage developers to engage in even more superfluous sloppiness. (Much like the advent of DSL seemed to give license to every "webmaster" out there to pile on as much rubble to their pages as they could manage). By taking a stand in threads like this one, the word gets out and they instead become motivated to slim things down on their end. (for example, i think my macfixit post may have had that effect on cocktail... and i've also emailed similar info to some shareware authors as well).

Any clearer now?
If not, ask away.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I don't develop Mail.app and iChat.app. I write about what I know. It's not too great a stretch to imagine that there may be similar arrangements with those apps as well.

Fine... we can talk about Pacifist then, shall we?

Do you know what a release candidate build is?

Have you learned how to properly code sign an app yet?

Because it would be nice to show Pacifist's customers some consideration by <omitting files from the bundle's seal>... specifically I.B. scratch files like classes.nib, info.nib and designable.nib (and/or data.dependency plus pbdevelopment.plist items, if present). It wouldn't matter how many excess items it contained, as long as it would still launch after users cleaned it up for themselves. Does it give you a feeling of power, *forcing* thousands of people worldwide to store your developer nibs for no reason? Since you refuse to remove them before shipment, do the right thing Charles and configure the CodeResources file so that end users can erase those naughty niblets... and still have a program that's willing to launch. That's not asking too much now, is it?

For the record, i will note that -- after stripping Mail.app, iChat.app and iWeb.app of all junky.nibs -- both Mail.app and iChat.app still pass codesign -vvvv (because their CodeResources plist marks them with <key>optional</key>), but iWeb however fails... claiming that some objects.nib resource was *added*!!! (apparently it was not re-signed after some factory modification). So -- as of this date -- even some of Apple's apps are less than perfect in this regard. However, they will still gladly launch no matter what... and i think both Firewall and Keychain does accept their new "implicit" signatures as is (after asking our permission of course). If not, then that would still be Apple's fault, for not carefully setting the CodeResources to 'omit' the junky.nibs (or treat them as 'optional') in the first place.


Back to the other sub-topic briefly: when you can find the time, it might be nice to see a language filter added to Pacifist... so that items could be extracted including only those localizations which we pre-set in the prefs (such as just English and Swedish, for example).

TIA and have a nice day.

-HI-

--

Since this thread is probably on its way to LockMe Town, i'll post these two links now:

• Solving the mystery of Snow Leopard's shrinking apps
  
• Small by Design: Explaining Snow Leopard's App Sizes

[cgc]

I had Macaroni on Tiger and used it to do things other than maintenance such as run a script to sync some folders to a backup drive periodically. There's more to Macaroni than running Maintenance scripts.