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Blu-Ray in the wild (Page 3)
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Landos Mustache
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Jun 23, 2006, 01:34 PM
 
The PS3 will be the first to support HDMI 1.3

http://www.techdigest.tv/2006/06/sony_playstatio.html

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BrunoBruin
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Jun 23, 2006, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman
As for the Samsung, I can live with the test tone issue. The HDMI isn't a problem FOR ME, but I can see how it's going to be a serious issue for other people.
On the other hand, it's a bit of sweet karmic revenge for those of us with high-definition monitors that DON'T have DVI or HDMI. After all these months of wondering if I'd be able to use high-def DVD at ALL, it would be funny if this first batch of players actually output a better image over component than HDMI!
     
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Jun 25, 2006, 03:59 PM
 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=691699

Apparently Sony is paying off Best Buy to not display a working HD-DVD setup.
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Jun 25, 2006, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=691699

Apparently Sony is paying off Best Buy to not display a working HD-DVD setup.
Nowhere in that thread did it say "Sony is most definitely paying them off." It was also noted that BB makes higher margins on BlueRay players (meaning they want to sell those and not HD-DVD).

But I guess it couldn't possibly be the evil Best Buy that we all know and love. Sony is inherently evil, moreso than BB. I'm quite sure it was their fault.
     
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Jun 26, 2006, 11:25 AM
 
Panasonic DMP-BD10 is US$1300.

Extraordinary Image — Panasonic’s proprietary P4HD technology performs IP conversion at the pixel level for the finest details. In addition the DMP-BD10 incorporates a 296MHz, 14bit Video D/A Converter that provides high quality 4x oversampling for 1080i/720p output. Noise shaping video processing shifts the noise component to an unused band to further boost the signal-to-noise ratio. Because of technologies like these, the DMP-BD10 can theoretically reproduce up to nearly 4400 billion colors.

Backward Capability — Plays a variety of optical discs including DVDs and CDs and up-converts video playback from DVDs to 1080P, by using HDMI.


---

Meanwhile, Sony CEO Howard Stringer says the PS3 is high risk for Sony, but justified because it is a good long term investment.

"Obviously, it's a higher-risk strategy as all new inventions are. But if the PS3 lives up to its total potential, then I don't think anyone will be worried about Nintendo or Xbox's cheaper price," he added.

"When you bring into new technology, do you go for a cheaper transitional [product], or do you take a chance on future-proof, higher technology which will keep you going for many, many years?" he stated.
     
Landos Mustache
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Jun 26, 2006, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
[b]Extraordinary Image — Panasonic’s proprietary P4HD technology performs IP conversion at the pixel level for the finest details. In addition the DMP-BD10 incorporates a 296MHz, 14bit Video D/A Converter that provides high quality 4x oversampling for 1080i/720p output.

Backward Capability — Plays a variety of optical discs including DVDs and CDs and up-converts video playback from DVDs to 1080P, by using HDMI.

I don't get it, does it play Blu-ray at 1080p or i? They seem to say both in that press release.

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goMac
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Jun 27, 2006, 10:29 AM
 
Samsung apparently is working on a dual format player:

http://tomshardware.co.uk/2006/06/21...mat_hd_player/
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Landos Mustache
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Jun 27, 2006, 10:46 AM
 
“We have not given up on a unified format. We would like to seek ways for unifying the standards if opportunities arise.”
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...yer-183618.php

Strange that that is coming from Toshiba.

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Eug Wanker
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Jun 27, 2006, 10:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
“We have not given up on a unified format. We would like to seek ways for unifying the standards if opportunities arise.”
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...yer-183618.php

Strange that that is coming from Toshiba.
Translated: "We'll do a unified format if we can still make money off licencing fees."
     
Landos Mustache
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Jun 27, 2006, 11:06 AM
 
"But that’s not all! Sony and NEC are also releasing a dual-format player of Blu-ray and HD-DVD. This is back-up for Sony, since they did loose miserably with Beta."

Uh huh.. loose.

http://digitalbattle.com/2006/06/23/...hd-dvd-hybrid/

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Eug Wanker
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Jun 27, 2006, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
"But that’s not all! Sony and NEC are also releasing a dual-format player of Blu-ray and HD-DVD. This is back-up for Sony, since they did loose miserably with Beta."

Uh huh.. loose.

http://digitalbattle.com/2006/06/23/...hd-dvd-hybrid/
I don't believe that article. Any other links?
     
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Jun 27, 2006, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
I don't believe that article. Any other links?
My Tom's Hardware link also says that Sony is working on an HD-DVD player.
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Jun 27, 2006, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
My Tom's Hardware link also says that Sony is working on an HD-DVD player.
No it doesn't. It just postulates that Sony COULD be, especially since it's partnered with NEC.
     
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Jun 27, 2006, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
Absolutely, good thing the titles that came out in MPEG2 are **** to begin with. Lets pray batman is not.
An MPEG-2 can look just as good as an MPEG-4 xvid or h.264; it just has more bandwidth requirements from the optical drive.
     
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Jun 27, 2006, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ink
An MPEG-2 can look just as good as an MPEG-4 xvid or h.264; it just has more bandwidth requirements from the optical drive.
...which is the key problem here.

MPEG2 on 25 GB Blu-ray discs can be limiting, when you're talking about long 1920x1080p24 movies with HD audio and extras.

I'm sure some of the compressionists would love to make 30+ Mbps MPEG2 BDs, but 25 GB just doesn't cut it. Unfortunately, 50 GB BDs so far are nowhere to be seen.
     
Landos Mustache
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Jun 27, 2006, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ink
An MPEG-2 can look just as good as an MPEG-4 xvid or h.264; it just has more bandwidth requirements from the optical drive.

That is what everyone was saying also but apparently now that is not true because of some crappy samsung player.

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Eug Wanker
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Jun 27, 2006, 09:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
That is what everyone was saying also but apparently now that is not true because of some crappy samsung player.
No, even a Sony or Pioneer player won't correct mastering issues. MPEG2 can look quite good, but it generally needs a high bitrate to do that.

But of course we have already said that about a bazillion times in this thread.
     
Landos Mustache
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Jun 27, 2006, 11:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
No, even a Sony or Pioneer player won't correct mastering issues. MPEG2 can look quite good, but it generally needs a high bitrate to do that.

But of course we have already said that about a bazillion times in this thread.

Confusing thing was everyone said something different a bazillion times in a previous thread.

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goMac
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Jun 27, 2006, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
Confusing thing was everyone said something different a bazillion times in a previous thread.
I thought it was kind of obvious. An MP3 can sound just as good as AAC, but the MP3 just has to have a much higher bit rate.

MPEG2 can look great, the problem is it just takes a lot of space. Even if both HD-DVD and Bluray were stuck at MPEG2 right now, HD-DVD is going to look better because it has more capacity. When the shift happens to VC1, the video quality will be very comparable because both formats will have far more space than required.

I didn't think this was a point of differing opinion.
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Eug Wanker
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Jun 27, 2006, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
I thought it was kind of obvious. An MP3 can sound just as good as AAC, but the MP3 just has to have a much higher bit rate.

MPEG2 can look great, the problem is it just takes a lot of space. Even if both HD-DVD and Bluray were stuck at MPEG2 right now, HD-DVD is going to look better because it has more capacity. When the shift happens to VC1, the video quality will be very comparable because both formats will have far more space than required.

I didn't think this was a point of differing opinion.
That's right. Only Landos is confused.
     
Landos Mustache
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Jun 28, 2006, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
That's right. Only Landos is confused.
With your conflicting information...absolutely.

A few months ago MPEG2 was more than adequate for blu-ray. Now suddenly it isn't.

You can understand where the confusion comes from.

And I don't read any technical dribble GoMac puts out as it is proven wrong over and over.

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goMac
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Jun 28, 2006, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
With your conflicting information...absolutely.

A few months ago MPEG2 was more than adequate for blu-ray. Now suddenly it isn't.

You can understand where the confusion comes from.

And I don't read any technical dribble GoMac puts out as it is proven wrong over and over.
No, you'd like the "technical dribble" to be wrong. I can point you to Wikipedia afterwards and never hear a reply back from you again.

MPEG2 would be fine for Bluray if Bluray had released their 50 gig disks, but they haven't. As it stands HD-DVD is higher quality.
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starman  (op)
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Jun 28, 2006, 11:43 AM
 
MPEG-2 isn't good for anything because of the space issue if you're going to add extras.

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Jun 28, 2006, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
With your conflicting information...absolutely.

A few months ago MPEG2 was more than adequate for blu-ray. Now suddenly it isn't.

You can understand where the confusion comes from.
Blame Sony and friends for fsckin' up the Blu-ray launch. MPEG2 is perfectly fine... ON 50 GB DISCS. It's not so fine on 25 GB discs (for long movies and/or you want lots of audio tracks/extras).
     
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Jun 28, 2006, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
MPEG2 can look great, the problem is it just takes a lot of space. Even if both HD-DVD and Bluray were stuck at MPEG2 right now, HD-DVD is going to look better because it has more capacity. When the shift happens to VC1, the video quality will be very comparable because both formats will have far more space than required.
Well, it's the bandwidth that's the real limitation. You can only produce content that can be read by the slowest player out there. That's why DVD MPEG-2 is stuck at 9Mb/s, even though every drive made in the last 3 years can go much faster.

From what I understand, Blu-Ray's baseline bandwidth is 36Mb/s; which should allow for MPEG-2 streams that are 4x larger than DVD streams. 1080 streams, however, require 6 times the bandwidth of comprable SD streams. So, even though a Bluray disc could hold such a beast, it wouldn't be fast enough to transfer it to the decoder. Next-gen Blu-Ray drives are going to read at 54Mb/s and 105Mb/s; but the base-line is already set.

Not that it matters, anyway.
     
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Jun 28, 2006, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by ink
Well, it's the bandwidth that's the real limitation. You can only produce content that can be read by the slowest player out there. That's why DVD MPEG-2 is stuck at 9Mb/s, even though every drive made in the last 3 years can go much faster.

From what I understand, Blu-Ray's baseline bandwidth is 36Mb/s; which should allow for MPEG-2 streams that are 4x larger than DVD streams. 1080 streams, however, require 6 times the bandwidth of comprable SD streams. So, even though a Bluray disc could hold such a beast, it wouldn't be fast enough to transfer it to the decoder. Next-gen Blu-Ray drives are going to read at 54Mb/s and 105Mb/s; but the base-line is already set.
36 Mbps is sufficient, in terms of (video + audio) quality.

Unfortunately 36 Mbps means 4.5 MB/s, or 270 KB/min. That's 32 GB for a 2-hour movie, with no extras. Oops.
     
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Jun 28, 2006, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
36 Mbps is sufficient, in terms of (video + audio) quality.

Unfortunately 36 Mbps means 4.5 MB/s, or 270 KB/min. That's 32 GB for a 2-hour movie, with no extras. Oops.
It's variable bitrate, with a 36Mb/s ceiling; so you should be able to comfortably fit it plus a bunch of extras, but yeah -- h.264 or whatever would be an improvement for 1080 content.
     
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Jun 28, 2006, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by ink
It's variable bitrate, with a 36Mb/s ceiling; so you should be able to comfortably fit it plus a bunch of extras, but yeah -- h.264 or whatever would be an improvement for 1080 content.
That's just it, you can't comfortably fit it on a 25 GB BD-ROM.

eg. 32 Mbps VBR (with 36 Mbps ceiling) = 4 MB/s = 24 MB/min = 28-29 GB for a 2-hour movie, with no extras.

Ironically, at this time that'd fit on an HD-DVD, but not a Blu-ray disc.

Realistically, right now the average video bitrate on Blu-ray needs to be limited to something like 25 Mbps or less for a 2-hour movie with minimal extras. For MPEG2, it's OK, but not great.
( Last edited by Eug Wanker; Jun 28, 2006 at 01:05 PM. )
     
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Aug 13, 2006, 11:03 PM
 
The BR of RoboCop has been cancelled....two days before its release.





Wait for it....











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Aug 29, 2006, 11:22 PM
 
Blu-ray camp can't get 50GB titles to work?

Well now it appears that there's even more bad news for Sony's pride and joy, as The Digital Bits' Bill Hunt is confirming what many people already suspected after reading their P1000 manuals: the $1,000 player, as currently configured, will be unable to support movies on upcoming 50GB discs. Hunt cites multiple anonymous industry sources in reporting that Samsung is still having problems getting 50GB discs to work on its machines -- production titles weren't even available to test before the players launched -- and that both Sony and Pioneer are experiencing the same issues with their upcoming products. uckily for current P1000 owners, it seems that this incompatibility is of the type that will eventually be solved by a firmware upgrade, but until that time, movie studios have been forced to delay longer titles like Lawrence of Arabia and Black Hawk Down -- no doubt frustrating some consumers.
     
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Aug 30, 2006, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug
Blu-ray camp can't get 50GB titles to work?

Well now it appears that there's even more bad news for Sony's pride and joy, as The Digital Bits' Bill Hunt is confirming what many people already suspected after reading their P1000 manuals: the $1,000 player, as currently configured, will be unable to support movies on upcoming 50GB discs. Hunt cites multiple anonymous industry sources in reporting that Samsung is still having problems getting 50GB discs to work on its machines -- production titles weren't even available to test before the players launched -- and that both Sony and Pioneer are experiencing the same issues with their upcoming products. uckily for current P1000 owners, it seems that this incompatibility is of the type that will eventually be solved by a firmware upgrade, but until that time, movie studios have been forced to delay longer titles like Lawrence of Arabia and Black Hawk Down -- no doubt frustrating some consumers.
I think "eventually be solved by a firmware upgrade" should be highlighted... as this really isn't a major problem. If it was going to be completely unable to play the 50GB discs... than I would be really upset.

At this point, the technology is so new that early adopters shouldn't be surprised if their players have issues 2-3 years down the road.
     
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Aug 30, 2006, 12:48 PM
 
Well, I think it's rather lame if it's true that Samsung couldn't even test their units with 50 GB discs before they released the machines, because the 50 GB discs didn't even exist. That's what I call an irresponsible launch, esp. if they're having problems getting 50 GB to work, now that they've got the discs for testing.

If true, then both Sony and Samsung dropped the ball on this one.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised it's true, considering that Samsung's manual doesn't mention 50 GB compatibility, and no 50 GB commercial discs exist.
     
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Aug 30, 2006, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug
Well, I think it's rather lame if it's true that Samsung couldn't even test their units with 50 GB discs before they released the machines, because the 50 GB discs didn't even exist. That's what I call an irresponsible launch, esp. if they're having problems getting 50 GB to work, now that they've got the discs for testing.
it is rather typical of samsung.

Even their DVD players a year ago had glaring problems that anyone would be able to notice. The promised updated ROMS and never delivered.

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Aug 30, 2006, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug
That's what I call an irresponsible launch, esp. if they're having problems getting 50 GB to work, now that they've got the discs for testing.
We can blame the format war for this one. Both the HD DVD and Blu-ray camps were so intent on beating the other to market that Toshiba and Samsung shipped players before the bugs were ironed out.

That being said, I have to give Toshiba props for staying on top of issues and fixing problems. I think their launch has gone far more smoothly than Blu-ray, and I say that as someone who was firmly in the BD camp.
     
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Aug 30, 2006, 01:48 PM
 
Kudos to Toshiba on their ability to load firmware directly from the net. 2.0 is WONDERFUL, and Sammy users are screwed from getting the update as soon as it's ready.

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Aug 30, 2006, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman
2.0 is WONDERFUL
I hear it's pretty good, but don't know the specifics. What makes it wonderful?

P.S. The way this is going, I might get an HD drive for my Xbox 360 sooner rather than later. Originally I was planning on waiting until mid 2007 or something before making any significant purchases, but now I'm not so sure.
     
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Aug 30, 2006, 02:14 PM
 
Tru-HD

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Landos Mustache
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Aug 30, 2006, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug
I hear it's pretty good, but don't know the specifics. What makes it wonderful?
The ROM update made it work like it should have when it shipped and it reduced the size of the unit and made the remote usable obviously.

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Aug 30, 2006, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Landos Mustache
The ROM update made it work like it should have when it shipped and it reduced the size of the unit and made the remote usable obviously.
     
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Aug 30, 2006, 10:53 PM
 
Got Stargate on BR today. DAMN good looking, I must say. This is the first BR disc that looks like it should.

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Aug 30, 2006, 11:39 PM
 
You have both Blu-ray and HD-DVD?

I'm a bit disappointed that Stargate is only the extended version on Blu-ray. I prefer the shorter theatrical version actually.

However, I'm not keen on buying it in HD, as I've already seen it so many times. Or at least, I won't buy it until it gets more extras.
     
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Sep 1, 2006, 02:00 PM
 
Pioneer to release hybrid BR/HD-DVD drive.

The first new drive, the BDR-102 will also support CD-R/RW discs, another disc format missing from the company's current product, the BDR-101. The BDR-102 is due to ship early next year, possibly in two versions, one with an IDE interface, the other with a SATA connector. It's not clear at what speeds the BDR-102 will write single- and dual-layer, 25GB and 50GB BD-R and BD-RE discs.

Further out, the BDR-103 will bring on board support for HD DVD, presumably recordable and rewriteable versions of the format as well as pre-recorded discs.
     
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Sep 1, 2006, 06:18 PM
 
High-definition DVD market facing static
"Neither format is selling well or at the level I had expected. I had expected early adopters to step up and other retailers have had the same experience," said Bjorn Dybdahl, president of San Antonio, Texas-based specialty store Bjorn's.

...

"High expectations were set. At every meeting with Sony, every demonstration was spectacular," Dybdahl said.

"Then along comes the first Blu-ray player from Samsung and that's when my expectations were hurt. When we put the disc in, all the sales people looked around and said it doesn't look much better than a standard DVD," he said.
I think that the difference between VHS and DVD was a revolutionary jump. People can easily tell the difference between the two -- plus the random-access disc allows for menus, extras, subs, multiple audio/video tracks, etc.

The difference between DVD and HD/BR is much more subtle, and I think this is going to hurt adoption.
     
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Sep 1, 2006, 10:43 PM
 
It was interesting to see the selection at HMV today. 9 rows of HD-DVD and 4 rows of Blu-ray. The Blu-ray discs cost more, and either were merely the same number of features as the HD DVD or had less. eg. Training Day for HD-DVD included the TrueHD track, but on Blu-ray it did not.

Blu-ray needs to get 50 GB discs out asap in order to be a contender IMO. Either that, or get VC-1 or H.264 onto those discs. 25 GB and MPEG-2 just doesn't cut it.
     
Dark Helmet
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Sep 2, 2006, 02:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by ink
The difference between DVD and HD/BR is much more subtle, and I think this is going to hurt adoption.

I you have a HDTV the difference is anything from subtle. You can tell the difference from 50 feet away. Hell, since I got HDTV.. DVD's look like VHS to me.

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goMac
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Sep 2, 2006, 03:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet
I you have a HDTV the difference is anything from subtle. You can tell the difference from 50 feet away. Hell, since I got HDTV.. DVD's look like VHS to me.
I agree the difference is big, but I'm not sure a consumer will appreciate the difference. It's the difference currently between good enough and great. I think there is only going to be a need for HD on TV's 40 inches and higher currently.
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ink
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Sep 2, 2006, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
I agree the difference is big, but I'm not sure a consumer will appreciate the difference. It's the difference currently between good enough and great. I think there is only going to be a need for HD on TV's 40 inches and higher currently.
I imagine so; and the good news is that most people will probably replace their existing sets with 40+inch screens.

Eventually.
     
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Sep 2, 2006, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by ink
I imagine so; and the good news is that most people will probably replace their existing sets with 40+inch screens.

Eventually.
It seems most sets are 32 inches right now.

The only time I've gone ZOMG HD is when it was a 50 inch projection. And even then SD still looked pretty hawt.
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Sep 3, 2006, 01:31 AM
 
Well, I've got a 34" TV and HD can be ZOMG awesome, depending on the source material. For instance, I just had a look at Star Wars: Attack of the Clones in HD, and the quality is astonishing.

OTOH, I agree the DVD already looks pretty good, and 'good enough' for many people. Furthermore, I've seen some HD stuff that looked just kinda meh. Like I said, it depends on the source material.

BTW, it seems this apathy about image (and sound) quality is what Apple is building its media business upon. 128 AAC and 320x240 H.264 really do not impress (especially the latter), yet people buy this stuff.
     
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Sep 10, 2006, 07:20 PM
 
Well what do you know... blu-ray looks good now...

Slashdot | Blu-ray vs. HD DVD Round Two

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