[TailsToo]

So now the new Macbooks have no firewire port, and just a FW800 port on the new Pros. Firewire ports have been standard on the Mac line for years and years (other than the Air) but if Apple has removed it from their best selling computer, does that mean that companies will give up and just support USB?

I love my FireWire devices, but is it time to start looking for USB replacements?

[lpkmckenna]

I think Apple just wants to kill FW400. Seriously, this will probably lead to more USB2/FW800 external drives.

Since Apple dropped FW from the iPod, and since the internal iSight cameras run on the USB bus instead of the FW bus, keeping the FW in consumer Macs make less sense.

[nonhuman]

Or just get a MBP if you want to use portable FireWire devices... The vast majority of consumer peripherals are USB, and generally FireWire is only necessary for video stuff, which most people would want a MBP for anyway.

I agree it would be nice to have FW on everything, but I think there's also an argument to be made that it's a waste of money to put FW on a MB where most people aren't going to use it.

[Eug]

There is no need whatsoever for a MBP to do video. The MB is plenty fast for video.

What I'd recommend is just getting the 2.4 GHz MacBook refurb.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

There is no need whatsoever for a MBP to do video. The MB is plenty fast for video.

What I'd recommend is just getting the 2.4 GHz MacBook refurb.

Are you kidding? I don't even like coding on a 13" screen, let alone editing video. Sure it's possible to edit video on a non-Pro, but that doesn't mean it's not more desireable to use a MacBook Pro.

[TailsToo]

My point is that peripheral manufacturers will see this as Apple giving up on FireWire. Every new MacBook sold is one less FireWire customer now. It could lead to hire prices for FireWire devices, or a much more limited selection.

I'm just thinking this is a bad move on Apple's part, along with their decision not to offer matte displays on their "Pro" notebook.

[nonhuman]

Really I think that's the way things were heading either. It's just another format war, and the better than necessary, higher prices competitor is losing again.

[slpdLoad]

Do HD camcorders have USB connections, just like a USB portable? Seems like most *consumer* DV camcorders still need a FW400 port on the *consumer* MacBook. It's not like iMovie isn't included on the MB.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by TailsToo 

My point is that peripheral manufacturers will see this as Apple giving up on FireWire. Every new MacBook sold is one less FireWire customer now. It could lead to hire prices for FireWire devices, or a much more limited selection.

I'm just thinking this is a bad move on Apple's part, along with their decision not to offer matte displays on their "Pro" notebook.

Yup. Happened with cheap SCSI too, with the iMac. (It was also a bad hit for ADB at the same time.)

If you're feeling all let down and stuff right now, that's what some of us felt in 98. Welcome to the "screwed by Apple arbitrarily" club.

[Maflynn]

I think Apple was looking for ways to differentiate the two models. Since pound for pound the MB has nearly the same components of the MBP yet its a thousand dollars cheaper. If you want a faster GPU, or a larger screen or FW then you'll need to consider the MBP.

Personally I'm having a hard time justifying the cost of the MBP, the only thing that's stopping me now is the dual GPU. I use Aperture and I'm wondering if the superior GPU will be beneficial to me, or will the MB be adequate.

[nonhuman]

I'm very tempted by the MBP, except for the price. I want the screen real estate more than anything else. Which is why I sold my old MacBook for a ThinkPad T61. Maybe once I can be sure the spiffy new trackpad has good Linux support.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

I think Apple was looking for ways to differentiate the two models. Since pound for pound the MB has nearly the same components of the MBP yet its a thousand dollars cheaper. If you want a faster GPU, or a larger screen or FW then you'll need to consider the MBP.

Personally I'm having a hard time justifying the cost of the MBP, the only thing that's stopping me now is the dual GPU. I use Aperture and I'm wondering if the superior GPU will be beneficial to me, or will the MB be adequate.

Since when does $700 equal $1000?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by slpdLoad 

Do HD camcorders have USB connections, just like a USB portable?

The flash and hard drive based ones do.

[Paco500]

What about target disk mode- don't you need FW for that or is my info out of date?

[imitchellg5]

TDM needs FireWire.

I think they've killed it for consumers. Definitely not for pros though.

[slpdLoad]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The flash and hard drive based ones do.

Thanks. I can only assume this is what they expect people to be using.

[imitchellg5]

Tape is on its way out.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

TDM needs FireWire.

I think they've killed it for consumers.

And for techs.

[Wiskedjak]

Apple killed Firewire when they stopped supporting it on iPods.

[bonniescotland]

Apple getting rid of firewire on macbooks is crazy! I am an indie filmmaker have had short get into film festivals and I guess what I edited them on my macbook, yes I believe I can't run motion, but as the type of stuff I do isn't special effects (or whatever motion is for) I don't need a macbook pro, I also like the portability of the macbook. Yes I can see that the macbook pro would be better for serious editing, but for us semi-professional indie filmmakers working out of our garages and having a separate day job to keep us going, the macbook was the perfect economical/space saving option. Also as someone pointed out a lot of camcorders are still FW, when it comes to consumer camcorders the USB ones are problematic for editing. So for anyone who is either at my level or for someone just wanting to edit their family videos, no firewire port on a macbook is really problematic. For instance I have a friend who wants to edit her soccer matches for her soccer club, what will she do now? By the way she actually had tried editing stuff from a usb camcorder and had lots of problems, till I told her to use a FW camcorder. Fortunately she had a fw macbook to edit on. I think apple has underestimated the number of people who are trying to make and edit their own video, yes to them a soccer mum editing her soccer video may not be considered professional, it's not going to make it to the cinemas, but it still will be important for her to do a good video, so she can show it at her end of year soccer party etc.

[bonniescotland]

Apple getting rid of firewire on macbooks really sux, and is such a stupid decision! Yeah they might as well just get rid of imovie too on a macbook! Good luck for all those people who will try and edit through USB2! Have fun (not)!

[bonniescotland]

oh and one last point, that person who said "Or just get a MBP if you want to use portable FireWire devices" well some of us don't want (or have the money) to spend thousands more to get a computer which is bigger (and therefore less portable) and has a whole lot of specs that we don't need, just to get a firewire port! Thank god I already have a macbook, but if I do need an upgrade I certainly won't be buying for a least a year or two until Apple has the sense to reintroduce the firewire drive. I can't believe the stupidity of Apple they have really shot themselves in the foot with this no firewire idea!

[Big Mac]

Apple will continue to make these very unpopular types of decisions when they please because they know they have a generally captive market. Witness glossy-only MBP screens. Look at Apple's complete abandonment of the midrange tower market. This is the problem with having a single hardware vendor for our platform. Although I too am angry over these issues, it's probably best to come to terms with it.

[bonniescotland]

but they only have a captive market because macbooks were so easy to edit on (amongst other things), but if they are going to get rid of firewire, then whats to stop people saying well might as well get a pc. The thing is the less professional the video editor the more they need firewire, because USB is so hard to edit with, that people who don't understand too much about filmmaking and editing found the firewire/imovie combo of macbook great because there wasn't too much troubleshooting. Trying to use USB2 means you actually have to be a bit of a video expert to get it to work. So in some ways as much as the professional editors like firewire, it is necessary for the amateurs too. Personally the only reason I have stayed with mac is because of the combo of firewire and fcp, if you could get these 2 on a pc, well not saying I'd definitely get a pc, but it definitely make a pc a viable option to me.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by bonniescotland 

oh and one last point, that person who said "Or just get a MBP if you want to use portable FireWire devices" well some of us don't want (or have the money) to spend thousands more to get a computer which is bigger (and therefore less portable) and has a whole lot of specs that we don't need, just to get a firewire port!

So buy a used/refurbished MacBook with FireWire. Or even a used/refurbished MacBook Pro. If you need FireWire, then you need to buy a computer that has FireWire. That is no longer the MacBook. Get over it.

Thank god I already have a macbook, but if I do need an upgrade I certainly won't be buying for a least a year or two until Apple has the sense to reintroduce the firewire drive.

The chances that will happen are very low.

I can't believe the stupidity of Apple they have really shot themselves in the foot with this no firewire idea!

Right. Because they didn't do any research before making this decision and failed to realize that their MacBook sales were solely dependent on the fact that MacBooks had FireWire and that not a single one of those people who would have bought a MacBook are going to be willing to get a MacBook Pro.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

So buy a used/refurbished MacBook with FireWire. Or even a used/refurbished MacBook Pro. If you need FireWire, then you need to buy a computer that has FireWire. That is no longer the MacBook. Get over it.

Actually it is still on the MacBook 2.1. So you can just get that. It's actually faster than the more expensive aluminum MacBook. It's also much cheaper, and putting 4 GB RAM in it will only cost you $60 extra. (4 GB in the aluminum MacBook is $150 extra.)

[CharlesS]

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

[Big Mac]

Doesn't that just go to /dev/null?

[Brien]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Are you kidding? I don't even like coding on a 13" screen, let alone editing video. Sure it's possible to edit video on a non-Pro, but that doesn't mean it's not more desireable to use a MacBook Pro.

Yeah, but if they'd upped the resolution on that 15" screen that would help. 1440x900 isn't much better than 1280x800.

External monitor, here I come.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

The chances that will happen are very low.

I dunno, they added FW800 to the iMac not that long ago, and it hadn't had FW800 previously. So it is possible for them to move things in the pro-Firewire direction if they decide to. It's possible that Apple just wants to kill off FW400 and the old-style connector. If they decide to make a pro feature out of FW3200 at some point, then it might make sense to try to get users used to the connector type by putting FW800 on the consumer line. If the new MacBook fails to sell as well as the old one, or if the still-available plastic MacBook outsells the aluminum one by a significant margin, it's conceivable that they could sit back and reconsider.

Whether or not that's likely, I don't know. But I would send feedback if you feel strongly about this.

[Grryshecjk]

Hopefully they come out with a cheap adapter.. I know Monoprice has them for really cheap so it doesn't bother me... although it is a bit of a step back imo

[OreoCookie]

FireWire has only gained acceptance in special areas -- video editing and audio are two. I know a few musicians on this forum will be pretty disappointed they can no longer get a (smaller and lighter) MacBook to connect it to their favorite peripherals. On the other hand, other peripherals such as external harddrives, usually use USB and you have to pay extra to get one with FireWire ports.

I'm a bit surprised, though, that Apple did not offer eSATA ports, now this would be great for people to connect external harddrives at native speeds

[Maflynn]

I wonder how many consumers (who's the main target audience for the MB) actually use/care about firewire. The majority of non-professional people who I know don't have a clue about firewire vs. usb. All they want to do is hook up an external drive and you can do that with usb2

[RAILhead]

Right. ^^

[ajprice]

I'd agree with the thinking that they want out with FW400, moving the connectors on to 800 and above. Most peripheral connections now are USB2, and FW800 is getting more standardised. FW800 makes sense over FW400 now the same way as USB2 took over from 1.1. If Apple didn't do this kind of think we would still be using floppies, SCSI and ADB.

[Peter]

can you use target disk mode with fw800?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Peter 

can you use target disk mode with fw800?

Of course.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Actually it is still on the MacBook 2.1. So you can just get that. It's actually faster than the more expensive aluminum MacBook. It's also much cheaper, and putting 4 GB RAM in it will only cost you $60 extra. (4 GB in the aluminum MacBook is $150 extra.)

Newegg has the 4 GB RAM for $45 after rebate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233066

This only applies to the white/black MacBook, which uses DDR2. The new aluminum MacBook uses DDR3, which is much, much more expensive.

[Big Mac]

It's funny - I refused to buy the first generation iBook because it lacked Firewire when it really should have had it. I jumped when Firewire was added. Now, around nine or ten years later, the iBook's descendant again lacks Firewire for no good reason.

[osiris]

I think this was a rather inconsiderate move on Apple's part.
Every Mac should have the same standard set of ports, with the Pro Models simply having more of them.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's funny - I refused to buy the first generation iBook because it lacked Firewire when it really should have had it. I jumped when Firewire was added. Now, around nine or ten years later, the iBook's descendant again lacks Firewire for no good reason.

I refused to buy the first generation iBook because it had an 800x600 screen, and it looked like a toilet seat.

The sad part here is that it's very likely FireWire is gone for good. It makes sense from their business perspective IMO, since the vast, vast majority of MacBook owners likely never have used FireWire, and likely never will.

Plus they now have a further incentive in the higher end models to push the upgrade for new buyers. However, they did throw us a bone by keeping the old MacBooks around.

I liken this to keeping the Power Macs when the Mac Pro was introduced, and keeping the TiBook around when AluBooks were introduced. The Power Mac maintained backwards compatibility with numerous applications, and the TiBook maintained proper OS 9 boot support.

The lesson though is that once those machines were gone, they were gone. I think the same will apply with FireWire. At the next refresh, I expect FireWire will be gone forever from the MacBook line.

[Big Mac]

How many of us are considering going to Apple Stores to harass Apple drones over this faulty decision?

[Laminar]

Wait...someone would do that?

[Eug]

I kinda half expected Big Mac would do that when Apple dropped PowerPC.

[Big Mac]

Sure, I would consider it.

Originally Posted by Eug 

I kinda half expected Big Mac would do that when Apple dropped PowerPC.

I think I was too busy mourning over that.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I kinda half expected Big Mac would do that when Apple dropped PowerPC.

I was just thinking that...

[ajprice]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's funny - I refused to buy the first generation iBook because it lacked Firewire when it really should have had it. I jumped when Firewire was added. Now, around nine or ten years later, the iBook's descendant again lacks Firewire for no good reason.

Well there you go then. It's traditional!

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Of course.



Newegg has the 4 GB RAM for $45 after rebate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233066

This only applies to the white/black MacBook, which uses DDR2. The new aluminum MacBook uses DDR3, which is much, much more expensive.

can target disk mode be used in USB2? </hopeful>

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Peter 

can target disk mode be used in USB2? </hopeful>

Firewire was created to be a much smarter interface. Devices were made to be used together without a lot of processing to power the transfers. Not so with USB, which is "dumber" and very host CPU reliant. TDM is just one of the benefits of Firewire that you're not going to get on USB.

[Eug]

Even if they could make it work with USB, I suspect it would be very hard. I think the MacBook Air has given us the answer, because it doesn't support USB 2 target mode, and it's been around for quite some time now. IOW, even if we could get it with USB, Apple isn't going to implement it, because they'd probably think it isn't worth the effort.

[vmarks]

Well, we do have this thing called EFI, which is smart enough to negotiate it...