[besson3c]

With all due respect to the conservatives here, I have an extremely hard time taking anything I hear coming out of the tea party movement and the loudest conservative mouthpieces, and virtually any other conservative with a strong public presence seriously.

We talked a bit about how the "anything Obama = bad" tactics lose their effectiveness when people go apeshit about flag pins and other stupid shit, I believe this also holds true for much of the protest we are seeing now.

My best friend's wife is Tibetan. Believe me, we know *nothing* about living under a repressive government in comparison to the environment she was raised in and lived in until recently. We are talking about having to write essays about how great the Chinese government is as a little girl, or friends not being able to get back into Tibet to attend the funeral of their own brother (around the time of the Chinese olympic games), etc. I'm sure many of you have similar stories about living under an actual repressive government. Starting an insurance exchange and regulating the health insurance industry so that they cannot deny pre-existing conditions and stuff like that is laughably far from real repression.

I understand that many of the more sane conservatives in this bunch who will acknowledge that Obama's policies do not "complete annihilate American liberty" would say that his policies move us in this direction. Fine, but it is so incredibly difficult for people on the other side to look at this and take this sort of thing seriously when we see people going crazy over just about everything, people carrying deadly weapons and suggesting that we form militias and stuff like that. It's like people preaching the next great flood of the Earth because somebody spilled a glass of water.

Honestly, when are people going to figure out that their protests and positions would be soooo much more effective to people with brains if they would tone down the rhetoric and hyperbole just a wee bit? How can we have discussions when people think that Obama = Satan?

[Wiskedjak]

This goes both ways. I have a very difficult time taking hard-core environmentalists seriously, for exactly the same reasons.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

This goes both ways. I have a very difficult time taking hard-core environmentalists seriously, for exactly the same reasons.

Absolutely!

I'm centering the tea party sort of crowd out now only because they are dominating the news in relative comparison to any sort of advocacy or protest group on the left.

What's also really off-putting is that many politicians are exploiting this sort of language used by these groups to pull on heart strings and get people riled up.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What's also really off-putting is that many politicians are exploiting this sort of language used by these groups to pull on heart strings and get people riled up.

There's no question in my mind that politicians encourage and exploit this behavior. History has proven that it's easier to get people to follow you when you can create an enemy and united them against that enemy. It's a great tool for distracting people away from your weaknesses.

[Big Mac]

Besson, do you ever have anything to say about the effects of leftist political rhetoric? Do you ever have anything negative to say about the Left? It just seems like all your anger is concentrated at the right and at the Tea Parties, which have been remarkably civil, as opposed to many major leftist political movements. No Tea Party that I know of has called for the overthrow of any level of American government, but Socialist and Communist activists in this country have an established record of just such treasonous rhetoric.

As for your critique of militias, I know you don't have much respect for or understanding of America's founding, but private citizen militias were considered an indispensable ingredient of state and national defense. Militias are part of our national political heritage, and private gun ownership is a sacred personal right in this country. Sorry to break that to you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Besson, do you ever have anything to say about the effects of leftist political rhetoric? Do you ever have anything negative to say about the Left? It just seems like all your anger is concentrated at the right.

Sure I do, there just aren't any timely stories involving leftist advocacy groups wrapped up in an arms race of stupid right now that I'm aware of. I'm happy to direct my observations towards such groups on the left though.

There is no anger, that is perhaps your perception and possibly desire based on your attack of me below, but I don't really know why you are feeling defensive... My feeling is more of frustration because I don't like to see people do stupid things unless there is comic value, and more of a sense of fatigue in various individuals not yet realizing how incredibly counter-productive their actions are so far as appealing to intelligent people goes. But, whatever, they can spin their tires and do whatever they want, they are just hurting their own cause.

As for your critique of militias, I know you don't have much respect for or understanding of America's founding, but private citizen militias were considered an indispensable ingredient of state and national defense. Militias are part of our national political heritage, and [rivate gun ownership is a sacred personal right in this country. Sorry to break that to you.

We don't live in the 1800s anymore, dude. We are not at risk of being taken over by a country, group of terrorists, or tyrannical government (despite the rhetoric of the latter). Cries for forming militias is about as appropriate as cries for bringing back slavery or more objects we can tie our horses to so that they don't run away when we visit the town well to fetch some more water. You see, we have this thing we call a military that consists of thousands of people, and we have weapons that can blow up the world many times over. We also have this thing called a Democracy which we can use to vote politicians out of office, and we have the right to protest, say what we want, and do all sorts of things since we do not live in a police state.

It has been this way for a while, none of this has changed. Therefore, cries to rally militias isn't terribly appropriate or necessary, are they?

[Shaddim]

there just aren't any timely stories involving leftist advocacy groups wrapped up in an arms race of stupid right now that I'm aware of.

Except for the average "Climate Change" groupie. I lump them with the PETA idiots, most of the time.

It has been this way for a while, none of this has changed. Therefore, cries to rally militias isn't terribly appropriate or necessary, are they?

Says you. This country is rapidly circling the bowl and I'm not going to go unarmed when the rest of the sh*t hits the fan. To hell with relying on the government to protect me or counting on their entitlements and programs. In case you haven't noticed, there's a massive line that's been drawn and I wouldn't be surprised if there's another civil war in the next 10-20 years.

[BadKosh]

Besson, perhaps demonstrating that you know and understand the history of our country will give you credibility. Just emoting and whining doesn't count.

[BadKosh]

Just because a police officer has "Protect and Serve" on their badges doesn't mean squat if your house is invaded by illegals/criminals etc. The military is controlled by the political administration. I don't trust our current admin to make good decisions, or have the country's interests at heart. They demonstrate this every day. Spending and taking over and lying is standard practice. Our congress isn't listening, and they are the real power in this country, not the president.

[Lint Police]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Sure I do, there just aren't any timely stories involving leftist advocacy groups wrapped up in an arms race of stupid right now that I'm aware of. I'm happy to direct my observations towards such groups on the left though.

Code Pink™

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Spending and taking over and lying is standard practice.

This has been standard practice in government for longer than I've been alive. 000000000bama doesn't have a monopoly on it.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

There's no question in my mind that politicians encourage and exploit this behavior. History has proven that it's easier to get people to follow you when you can create an enemy and united them against that enemy. It's a great tool for distracting people away from your weaknesses.

QFT.

To truly understand what is going on today, though, you need to look at the media as well as the politicians. The leading voices of the Conservative movement in America right now are all media people. They have no responsibility to govern, and thus have no incentive to ever work with people who don't share their ideological viewpoint. There is, in fact, no incentive to ever tone down the hyperbole, because that's what gets them their ratings, which has a direct impact on their paychecks. Why do you think Sarah Palin quit being a politician and moved into Media? She is making a lot more money, with far less responsibility, and no accountability to anyone but her network bosses.

Politics in this country has been reduced to sport for some time now. But now it's actually getting in the way of running the country, because any politician who actually wants to get something accomplished by working with the other side gets accused of being a traitor by the talking heads, which reduces their ability to get anything else constructive done in the future.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

This goes both ways. I have a very difficult time taking hard-core environmentalists seriously, for exactly the same reasons.

YouTube - Activist Fail

[Weyland-Yutani]

YouTube - Victoria Jackson Steals The Show (Hannity)

We are still analyzing this. While she acts dumb, she is also an entertainer. However it may well pay off to keep an eye on this one. Such concentration of stupidity usually implodes on itself in spectacular ways, and if this is just entertainment... well it may be worth a few laughs.

Win/win situation for consumers.

[andi*pandi]

Putting the current rhetoric in perspective, we don't even have to compare stories of those who grew up under Communism or Naziism or anything like that. Read this and then compare to now. Are we under the thumb of foreign oppressors?

The charge is murder - The Boston Globe

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Except for the average "Climate Change" groupie. I lump them with the PETA idiots, most of the time.



Says you. This country is rapidly circling the bowl and I'm not going to go unarmed when the rest of the sh*t hits the fan. To hell with relying on the government to protect me or counting on their entitlements and programs. In case you haven't noticed, there's a massive line that's been drawn and I wouldn't be surprised if there's another civil war in the next 10-20 years.

What kind of civil war? A steel caged match of regular people vs. the government?

Or, you could just cut down the rhetoric and the crazy talk, get the conservative or third party to form good arguments that appeal to moderates and conservatives alike, and just vote out the politicians you don't like. Simple, huh?

[Lint Police]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What kind of civil war? A steel caged match of regular people vs. the government?

Or, you could just cut down the rhetoric and the crazy talk, get the conservative or third party to form good arguments that appeal to moderates and conservatives alike, and just vote out the politicians you don't like. Simple, huh?

Which is what is happening. People are pissed about all things government, form a group to protest, vote these people out, and you call that rhetoric.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Lint Police 

Code Pink™

I didn't say that such groups didn't exist, I just said that they don't seem to be plastered all over the news as of late. Again, I used what was in my estimation a more timely example, but my feelings towards protest groups apply to the environmental crowd and the Code Pink crowd as well.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

QFT.

To truly understand what is going on today, though, you need to look at the media as well as the politicians. The leading voices of the Conservative movement in America right now are all media people. They have no responsibility to govern, and thus have no incentive to ever work with people who don't share their ideological viewpoint. There is, in fact, no incentive to ever tone down the hyperbole, because that's what gets them their ratings, which has a direct impact on their paychecks. Why do you think Sarah Palin quit being a politician and moved into Media? She is making a lot more money, with far less responsibility, and no accountability to anyone but her network bosses.

Politics in this country has been reduced to sport for some time now. But now it's actually getting in the way of running the country, because any politician who actually wants to get something accomplished by working with the other side gets accused of being a traitor by the talking heads, which reduces their ability to get anything else constructive done in the future.

You nailed it!

Why does nobody on the right seem terribly bothered by this sort of thing? They seem to respond by ratcheting up the crazy rather than trying to encourage arguments that people can take seriously?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Lint Police 

Which is what is happening. People are pissed about all things government, form a group to protest, vote these people out, and you call that rhetoric.

Because it's an ineffective way to do that, and I don't understand why people don't see that. Sarah Palin tried to appeal to morons, it didn't work very well. Best case scenario, you'll get another George Bush.

[SpaceMonkey]

Freaking hyperbolists. Worse than Hitler.

[BadKosh]

Here is a fun read.... Not for the libs though.


And it came to pass in the Age of Insanity that the people of the land 
called America , having lost their morals, their initiative, and their 
will to defend their liberties, chose as their Supreme Leader that 
person known as "The One." 

He emerged from the vapors with a message that had no meaning; but He 
hypnotized the people telling them, "I am sent to save you." My lack 
of experience, my questionable ethics, my monstrous ego, and my 
association with evil doers are of no consequence. I shall save you 
with hope and Change. Go, therefore, and proclaim throughout the 
land that he who proceeded me is evil, that he has defiled the nation, 
and that all he has built must be destroyed. And the people rejoiced, 
for even though they knew not what "The One" would do, he had promised 
that it was good; and they believed. And "The One" said "We live in 
the greatest country in the world. Help me change everything about it!" 
And the people said, "Hallelujah! Change is good!" 

Then He said, "We are going to tax the rich fat-cats." And the 
people said "Sock it to them!" "And redistribute their wealth." And 
the people said, "Show us the money!"
And then he said, "redistribution of wealth is good for everybody." 
"4" 
And Joe the plumber asked, " Are you kidding me? You're going to 
steal my money and give it to the deadbeats??" And "The One" 
ridiculed and taunted him, and Joe's personal records were hacked and publicized. 
One lone reporter asked, "Isn't that Marxist policy?" And she was 
banished from the kingdom! 

Then a citizen asked, "With no foreign relations experience and 
having zero military experience or knowledge, how will you deal with 
radical terrorists?" And "The One" said, "Simple. I shall sit with 
them and talk with them and show them how nice we really are; and they 
will forget that they ever wanted to kill us all!" And the people 
said, "Hallelujah!! We are safe at last, and we can beat our weapons 
into free cars for the people!" 

Then "The One" said "I shall give 95% of you lower taxes." And one, 
lone voice said, "But 40% of us don't pay ANY taxes." So "The One" 
said, "Then I shall give you some of the taxes the fat-cats pay!" 
And the people said, "Hallelujah! Show us the money!" 
Then "The One" said, "I shall tax your Capital Gains when you sell 
your homes!" And the people yawned and the slumping housing market 
collapsed. And He said, "I shall mandate employer-funded health care 
for every worker and raise the minimum wage. And I shall give every 
person unlimited healthcare and medicine and transportation to the 
clinics." And the people said, "Give me some of that!" 
Then he said, "I shall penalize employers who ship jobs overseas." 
And the people said, "Where's my rebate check?" 

Then "The One" said, "I shall bankrupt the coal industry and 
electricity rates will skyrocket!" And the people said, "Coal is 
dirty, coal is evil, no more coal! But we don't care for that part 
about higher electric rates." So "The One" said, Not to worry. If 
your rebate isn't enough to cover your expenses, we shall bail you out. 
Just sign up with the ACORN and you troubles are over!" 

Then He said, "Illegal immigrants feel scorned and slighted. Let's 
grant them amnesty, Social Security, free education, free lunches, 
free medical care, bilingual signs and guaranteed housing..." And 
the people said, "Hallelujah!" and they made him king! 

And so it came to pass that employers, facing spiraling costs and 
ever-higher taxes, raised their prices and laid off workers. Others 
simply gave up and went out of business and the economy sank like unto 
a rock dropped from a cliff. 
The banking industry was destroyed. Manufacturing slowed to a 
crawl. And more of the people were without a means of support. 
 
Then "The One" said, "I am the "the One"- The Messiah - and I'm here 
to save you! We shall just print more money so everyone will have 
enough!" But our foreign trading partners said unto Him. "Wait a 
minute. Your dollar is not worth a pile of camel dung! You will have 
to pay more... And "The One" said, "Wait a minute. That is 
unfair!!" And the world said, "Neither are these other idiotic 
programs you have embraced. Lo, you have become a Socialist state and 
a second-rate power. Now you shall play by our rules!" 
 
And the people cried out, "Alas, alas!! What have we done?" But yea 
verily, it was too late. The people set upon The One and spat upon 
him and stoned him, and his name was dung. And the once mighty nation 
was no more; and the once proud people were without sustenance or 
shelter or hope. And the Change "The One" had given them was as like 
unto a poison that had destroyed them and like a whirlwind that 
consumed all that they had built. 

And the people beat their chests in despair and cried out in anguish, 
"give us back our nation and our pride and our hope!!" But it was too 
late, and their homeland was no more.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Here is a fun read.... Not for the libs though.

Damn liberals and their love of paragraphs.

[Lint Police]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Sarah Palin tried to appeal to morons....

Again with the insults to people you don't agree with. That's enough for me. /ignore.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Lint Police 

Again with the insults to people you don't agree with. That's enough for me. /ignore.

There is a reason why the vast majority of people don't feel that she is qualified to be president, including the likes of Bill O'Reilly. She has her rhetoric down, but command of facts and knowledge of the world, not so much.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Here is a fun read.... Not for the libs though.


And it came to pass in the Age of Insanity that the people of the land 
called America , having lost their morals, their initiative, and their 
will to defend their liberties, chose as their Supreme Leader that 
person known as "The One." 

He emerged from the vapors with a message that had no meaning; but He 
hypnotized the people telling them, "I am sent to save you." My lack 
of experience, my questionable ethics, my monstrous ego, and my 
association with evil doers are of no consequence. I shall save you 
with hope and Change. Go, therefore, and proclaim throughout the 
land that he who proceeded me is evil, that he has defiled the nation, 
and that all he has built must be destroyed. And the people rejoiced, 
for even though they knew not what "The One" would do, he had promised 
that it was good; and they believed. And "The One" said "We live in 
the greatest country in the world. Help me change everything about it!" 
And the people said, "Hallelujah! Change is good!" 

Then He said, "We are going to tax the rich fat-cats." And the 
people said "Sock it to them!" "And redistribute their wealth." And 
the people said, "Show us the money!"
And then he said, "redistribution of wealth is good for everybody." 
"4" 
And Joe the plumber asked, " Are you kidding me? You're going to 
steal my money and give it to the deadbeats??" And "The One" 
ridiculed and taunted him, and Joe's personal records were hacked and publicized. 
One lone reporter asked, "Isn't that Marxist policy?" And she was 
banished from the kingdom! 

Then a citizen asked, "With no foreign relations experience and 
having zero military experience or knowledge, how will you deal with 
radical terrorists?" And "The One" said, "Simple. I shall sit with 
them and talk with them and show them how nice we really are; and they 
will forget that they ever wanted to kill us all!" And the people 
said, "Hallelujah!! We are safe at last, and we can beat our weapons 
into free cars for the people!" 

Then "The One" said "I shall give 95% of you lower taxes." And one, 
lone voice said, "But 40% of us don't pay ANY taxes." So "The One" 
said, "Then I shall give you some of the taxes the fat-cats pay!" 
And the people said, "Hallelujah! Show us the money!" 
Then "The One" said, "I shall tax your Capital Gains when you sell 
your homes!" And the people yawned and the slumping housing market 
collapsed. And He said, "I shall mandate employer-funded health care 
for every worker and raise the minimum wage. And I shall give every 
person unlimited healthcare and medicine and transportation to the 
clinics." And the people said, "Give me some of that!" 
Then he said, "I shall penalize employers who ship jobs overseas." 
And the people said, "Where's my rebate check?" 

Then "The One" said, "I shall bankrupt the coal industry and 
electricity rates will skyrocket!" And the people said, "Coal is 
dirty, coal is evil, no more coal! But we don't care for that part 
about higher electric rates." So "The One" said, Not to worry. If 
your rebate isn't enough to cover your expenses, we shall bail you out. 
Just sign up with the ACORN and you troubles are over!" 

Then He said, "Illegal immigrants feel scorned and slighted. Let's 
grant them amnesty, Social Security, free education, free lunches, 
free medical care, bilingual signs and guaranteed housing..." And 
the people said, "Hallelujah!" and they made him king! 

And so it came to pass that employers, facing spiraling costs and 
ever-higher taxes, raised their prices and laid off workers. Others 
simply gave up and went out of business and the economy sank like unto 
a rock dropped from a cliff. 
The banking industry was destroyed. Manufacturing slowed to a 
crawl. And more of the people were without a means of support. 
 
Then "The One" said, "I am the "the One"- The Messiah - and I'm here 
to save you! We shall just print more money so everyone will have 
enough!" But our foreign trading partners said unto Him. "Wait a 
minute. Your dollar is not worth a pile of camel dung! You will have 
to pay more... And "The One" said, "Wait a minute. That is 
unfair!!" And the world said, "Neither are these other idiotic 
programs you have embraced. Lo, you have become a Socialist state and 
a second-rate power. Now you shall play by our rules!" 
 
And the people cried out, "Alas, alas!! What have we done?" But yea 
verily, it was too late. The people set upon The One and spat upon 
him and stoned him, and his name was dung. And the once mighty nation 
was no more; and the once proud people were without sustenance or 
shelter or hope. And the Change "The One" had given them was as like 
unto a poison that had destroyed them and like a whirlwind that 
consumed all that they had built. 

And the people beat their chests in despair and cried out in anguish, 
"give us back our nation and our pride and our hope!!" But it was too 
late, and their homeland was no more.

Thanks for a perfect example of the kind of idiotic hyperbole that is dragging the national political debate into the gutter.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

The leading voices of the Conservative movement in America right now are all media people. They have no responsibility to govern, and thus have no incentive to ever work with people who don't share their ideological viewpoint. There is, in fact, no incentive to ever tone down the hyperbole, because that's what gets them their ratings, which has a direct impact on their paychecks.

Is this why the mainstream media talking heads are just parroting the BS from the white house and trying so hard to mis-characterize the Tea Party and such? Who remembers last fall, when they repeated the bogus Limbaugh quote for 4 days before the retractions started. Maddow, and the like continue to display their ignorance of facts on a daily basis. Where were the senior editors? How incompetent are the talking heads and the networks??? They are not viewed too widely, because they have reported so much that many know is wrong, slanted and lies, and now the leftist politicians want to prop up their own propaganda machine with subsidies. (newspapers, NPR, etc)

[sek929]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Here is a fun read.... Not for the libs though.

Holy giant block of text Batman!

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Damn liberals and their love of paragraphs.

heh, burned.

[SpaceMonkey]

I love how it mixes highfalutin bible-ish language with third-rate puppet theater.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Is this why the mainstream media talking heads are just parroting the BS from the white house and trying so hard to mis-characterize the Tea Party and such? Who remembers last fall, when they repeated the bogus Limbaugh quote for 4 days before the retractions started. Maddow, and the like continue to display their ignorance of facts on a daily basis. Where were the senior editors? How incompetent are the talking heads and the networks??? They are not viewed too widely, because they have reported so much that many know is wrong, slanted and lies, and now the leftist politicians want to prop up their own propaganda machine with subsidies. (newspapers, NPR, etc)

Mainstream media? FOX News is the number one news outlet now. That's your mainstream news.

Anyway... you can find talking heads to say anything. 90% of the stupid news is just moron talking heads parroting their sides talking points until they are blue in the face. That's a big part of the problem.

Talking Head #1: The sky is blue
Talking Head #2: The sky is blue with clouds
Talking Head #3: The sky is black at night
Talking Head #4: The sky is black with stars
Talking Head #5: Sometimes you see the moon
Talking Head #6: The sky is almost always blue
Talking Head #7: What about during a sunset, it can be orange
Talking Head #8: The sky is green

BAD KOSH: All talking heads are idiots! They say the sky is GREEN!!!!1!!!! OBAMA OBAMA MAINSTREAM MEDIA LIES MEDIA OBAMAM GUNS SOCIALISM ARGGHHGHDSFKSDJVLKFJGLSDKFj

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Thanks for a perfect example of the kind of idiotic hyperbole that is dragging the national political debate into the gutter.

You'd think that he could at least replace all of the Obama Os with 0s for comic value and consistency.

[andi*pandi]

What I especially like is when Jon Stewart takes the clips of talking heads bashing Obama (or any D) for XYZ, and then finds them praising bush (or any R) for XYZ. And vice versa.

It just shows how meaning less most television "debate" really is.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Mainstream media? FOX News is the number one news outlet now. That's your mainstream news.

Anyway... you can find talking heads to say anything. 90% of the stupid news is just moron talking heads parroting their sides talking points until they are blue in the face. That's a big part of the problem.

Talking Head #1: The sky is blue
Talking Head #2: The sky is blue with clouds
Talking Head #3: The sky is black at night
Talking Head #4: The sky is black with stars
Talking Head #5: Sometimes you see the moon
Talking Head #6: The sky is almost always blue
Talking Head #7: What about during a sunset, it can be orange
Talking Head #8: The sky is green

BAD KOSH: All talking heads are idiots! They say the sky is GREEN!!!!1!!!! OBAMA OBAMA MAINSTREAM MEDIA LIES MEDIA OBAMAM GUNS SOCIALISM ARGGHHGHDSFKSDJVLKFJGLSDKFj

I guess he missed the part where I referred to appealing to moderates and sane minded reasonable people with some degree of intellect - an audience which most of the mainstream media (including CNN and MSNBC) don't seem terribly interested in appealing to, unless you think that reading tweets on a news program accomplishes this.

Part of Obama's success was getting the so-called intellectual elites behind him. Why is there no "ivory tower conservative intellectual elite" crowd to mock and criticize? Why is being an intellectual a bad thing? I'd rather an intellectual deal with foreign relations, say, rather than a woman who brags about being able to see Russia from her house, just as a for example.

Maybe what is going on is an incredible overcompensation in trying to appeal to your average moron and leaving people with some degree of intellect behind? Didn't we go through this already?

I'm not saying that there aren't conservatives with an intellect, I *know* they exist in a sizable quantity, but what I am saying is that it seems like every day I listen to the news I hear about some other oneupmanship in the perpetual arms race of stupid, and these days much of this seems to be coming from the koo koo for cocoa puffs crowd that think that we should form militias and turn the economy around by carrying big ass guns to rallies, that the president wasn't born in the US, that we actually live under a repressive government, etc. etc. etc.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Is this why the mainstream media talking heads are just parroting the BS from the white house and trying so hard to mis-characterize the Tea Party and such? Who remembers last fall, when they repeated the bogus Limbaugh quote for 4 days before the retractions started. Maddow, and the like continue to display their ignorance of facts on a daily basis. Where were the senior editors? How incompetent are the talking heads and the networks??? They are not viewed too widely, because they have reported so much that many know is wrong, slanted and lies, and now the leftist politicians want to prop up their own propaganda machine with subsidies. (newspapers, NPR, etc)

At least the Democratic party has politicians willing to lead. You may not like Obama, but at least he is not ceding the mantle of leadership to the media. You may not like the recent Health Care reform bill, or the current Financial Reform bill, but at least the party is trying to put its agenda forward.

At least the liburl meedia is just parroting Democratic talking points. Democrats have something to talk about. It seems the Republican party is just parroting Conservative Media's talking points, and I think that is more scary.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

turn the economy around by carrying big ass guns to rallies,

If I join the Tea Party, can I get an ass gun, too?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

If I join the Tea Party, can I get an ass gun, too?

There are certain foods that when eaten can provide you with an ass gun...

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Mainstream media? FOX News is the number one news outlet now. That's your mainstream news.

You missed the part where I said the MSM was losing viewers because of their lies etc?

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

... but what I am saying is that it seems like every day I listen to the news I hear about some other oneupmanship in the perpetual arms race of stupid, and these days much of this seems to be coming from the koo koo for cocoa puffs crowd that think that we should form militias and turn the economy around by carrying big ass guns to rallies, that the president wasn't born in the US, that we actually live under a repressive government, etc. etc. etc.

The problem is the propaganda you believe is news.

[ort888]

So your claim here is that FOX news doesn't lie?

[SpaceMonkey]

I love how a news source can at once be both "mainstream" and supposedly out of touch with the majority of Americans.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Conservative #1: The sky is blue
Conservative #2: The sky is blue with clouds
Conservative #3: The sky is black at night
Conservative #4: The sky is black with stars
Conservative #5: Sometimes you see the moon
Conservative #6: The sky is almost always blue
Conservative #7: What about during a sunset, it can be orange
Conservative #8: The sky is green

BESSON3C: All conservatives are idiots! They say the sky is GREEN!!!!1!!!! PALIN PALIN FAUXNEWS LIES MEDIA GLEN BECK GAYS TEA PARTY ARGGHHGHDSFKSDJVLKFJGLSDKFj

Fixed

Seriously, besson3c, I have noticed you have a strong tendency to make generalizations about the other side and then blame them for your generalizations. There's nothing wrong with generalizations, they're essential for making sense of the world and forming opinions. The problem is when you insist your generalization is more accurate than the real world. It's an easy mistake to slip into, that's why they gave it a name (the strawman). There's also an easy trick to stop yourself from continuing to make strawman arguments again and again: wait for reality to actually recapitulate your generalization, before you complain about what's in your generalization. That's your problem, you're just not waiting for it to actually happen first. Learn some patience, and then conservatives will have less of a hard time taking anything that comes out of you seriously (and so will I).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

You missed the part where I said the MSM was losing viewers because of their lies etc?

Enough that the offset of the viewers they are picking up doesn't compensate for this? What evidence do you have that the total number of MSM viewers is on the decline?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Fixed

Seriously, besson3c, I have noticed you have a strong tendency to make generalizations about the other side and then blame them for your generalizations. There's nothing wrong with generalizations, they're essential for making sense of the world and forming opinions. The problem is when you insist your generalization is more accurate than the real world. It's an easy mistake to slip into, that's why they gave it a name (the strawman). There's also an easy trick to stop yourself from continuing to make strawman arguments again and again: wait for reality to actually recapitulate your generalization, before you complain about what's in your generalization. That's your problem, you're just not waiting for it to actually happen first. Learn some patience, and then conservatives will have less of a hard time taking anything that comes out of you seriously (and so will I).

If I'm asserting generalizations I apologize, and I ought to learn what it is in what I say that gives this impression.

I'm not asserting generalizations, I'm sharing my perceptions of the dominant discussion and dialog that is going on in this country right now. If my perceptions are that far off, so be it, but I think we can all point to evidence of the examples I give occurring at some scale.

Now, any of my individual examples could have been blown out of proportion, skewed, or invalid for a whole host of reasons, but the big picture that the discourse on the whole is incoherent, lacking focus, and fairly idiotic? I don't think such a perception can be false, because it is a perception, not an assertion. I'm not saying that the tea party movement is, in fact, idiotic or any of those things. I'm sure that there are many fine, smart, intellectually sound tea party people. It is most likely that the media is blowing these sorts of ugly incidents up into more than they really are, but then again, do you disagree that there is a national debate going on as to whether Obama is a socialist/communist/any other "ist", whether he is leading us to an ist, and whether the policies he has enacted have, in fact, brought us to the point of living under a repressive government?

Heck, we have a thread in this very form, the "complete annihilation of our liberty" that fuels this fire. Which leads me to my point: the rhetoric is waaaayyyy wwaaayyyy WAAYYYY larger than life, and because of this it is hard to take the people laying on the rhetoric this thick all that seriously.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If I'm asserting generalizations I apologize, and I ought to learn what it is in what I say that gives this impression.

I'll tell you exactly what it is that gives this impression: no examples, no specifics. The mark of an intelligent argument is that it gives a specific example, explains why the example is relevant, and explains why the example is incorrect. The reason this is the proper form of an argument is simply that it's falsifiable. If you're right, the opposition will admit as much, or flounder trying to disprove it. But if by some wild stretch of the imagination you happen to be wrong, the opposition can demonstrate it by showing that one or more of your specifics is inaccurate or irrelevant.

I'm not asserting generalizations, I'm sharing my perceptions

Those are the same thing

If my perceptions are that far off, so be it, but I think we can all point to evidence of the examples I give occurring at some scale.

And with that, you're simply the other side of the coin from BadKosh (for example). After all, he's only sharing his perceptions, and if his perceptions are that far off, so be it, but he thinks we can all point to evidence of the examples he gives occurring at some scale. Do you see how useless it is for him to simply throw down his "perception" of the dominant bee in his bonnet at the moment, and prattle on about that for several pages without giving specifics? Of course you do, that's exactly what you started this thread to complain about!

but the big picture that the discourse on the whole is incoherent, lacking focus, and fairly idiotic

This, this, a thousand times this. This is exactly what you're doing right now, with this thread. You're incoherent, lacking focus, and fairly idiotic (I know that sounds mean. Now think about what your opponents are supposed to think when they hear you say it). Just think about it for a second, you claim you don't need to give specifics, you're just counting on your broad "general perception" of what's been going on, which you don't even think can be false because it is a perception, what better example could there be of "lacking focus?" Get yourself some focus! Use specifics, stay on topic, and put yourself in a position that could conceivably be proven wrong. That way when/if you aren't proven wrong, you can actually show that you are right (or heck, you might even be convinced of something new). Until then you're just dueling "general perceptions" with BadKosh and the gang, neither side ever in danger of making a point.

It is most likely that the media is blowing these sorts of ugly incidents up into more than they really are, but then again, do you disagree that there is a national debate going on as to whether Obama is a socialist/communist/any other "ist", whether he is leading us to an ist, and whether the policies he has enacted have, in fact, brought us to the point of living under a repressive government?

Heck, we have a thread in this very form, the "complete annihilation of our liberty" that fuels this fire. Which leads me to my point: the rhetoric is waaaayyyy wwaaayyyy WAAYYYY larger than life, and because of this it is hard to take the people laying on the rhetoric this thick all that seriously.

But with this thread you're contributing to it as much as any! You complain that the extreme positions are given too much weight, then you start a new thread in which your premise is that the extreme positions are the norm. You complain that there is too much rhetoric (as opposed to specifics), then you start a new thread to complain about the rhetoric, and the thread is filled with nothing but rhetoric! "And because of this it is hard to take the people laying on the rhetoric this thick seriously"

Here's the take-home lesson3c. Just keep it to specifics. Period. No one can accuse you of a strawman as long as you keep your over-reactions to specific incidents, actions and statements. Make that your mantra: "could this be a straw man?" Don't respond to any "general perceptions," only respond to tangible, unambiguous, moves from the other side. If you absolutely must talk about general feelings, first (BEFORE you post) ask yourself "besson what tangible unambiguous events are responsible for giving you this general feeling?" Then talk about those events, NOT your general feelings. Once you've mastered that for, let's say a whole week, you'll be ready to start incorporating generalizations again. But you are totally overdosed on generalizations. Consider this an intervention.

The conservatives have their share of overgeneralizers too, of course, they're exactly the people you are complaining about in this thread. I would tell them to take the same advice, but they would never care about fixing the situation. The difference with you is that you actually start whole threads (often) to complain about the very thing you're doing, which makes me think you might actually want to improve yourself, if only your blinders could be taken off long enough to realize what you're doing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I'll tell you exactly what it is that gives this impression: no examples, no specifics. The mark of an intelligent argument is that it gives a specific example, explains why the example is relevant, and explains why the example is incorrect. The reason this is the proper form of an argument is simply that it's falsifiable. If you're right, the opposition will admit as much, or flounder trying to disprove it. But if by some wild stretch of the imagination you happen to be wrong, the opposition can demonstrate it by showing that one or more of your specifics is inaccurate or irrelevant.

This is right, but I'm not so sure about its effectiveness in here. What usually happens in here is that people pick apart each example one by one and it becomes about the validity of the individual examples rather than the larger point. I've fallen into this trap before, so I figure I'll start with the main point and then go from there.

Those are the same thing

I disagree. A perception is a statement of empirical observation, a generalization is an attempt to assert a fact.


I'll think about the rest of your message and respond to it later, still digesting it.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is right, but I'm not so sure about its effectiveness in here. What usually happens in here is that people pick apart each example one by one and it becomes about the validity of the individual examples rather than the larger point. I've fallen into this trap before, so I figure I'll start with the main point and then go from there.

Besson, that's not a "trap," you just lost that's all. What would you say to Big Mac if he defended his "total annihilation" thread in the same way you're doing right now? He tried giving examples (like the health care bill) but they weren't convincing, so from now on he's going to stop giving any specifics, just state his case (America is being annihilated by chairman Mao'bama) and "go from there." In other words, he's tired of being proven wrong so he'll stop making falsifiable arguments and simply state his conclusions as fact. Would you really find that reasoning anything but laughable?

If your specifics are inadequate, you need better specifics, not fewer specifics. It reminds me of a classic Simpsons line: "my staff is complaining about the rats in the kitchen. I want to hire a new staff."

I disagree. A perception is a statement of empirical observation, a generalization is an attempt to assert a fact.

How is a "statement of empirical observation" different from a "fact?"

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Besson, that's not a "trap," you just lost that's all. What would you say to Big Mac if he defended his "total annihilation" thread in the same way you're doing right now? He tried giving examples (like the health care bill) but they weren't convincing, so from now on he's going to stop giving any specifics, just state his case (America is being annihilated by chairman Mao'bama) and "go from there." In other words, he's tired of being proven wrong so he'll stop making falsifiable arguments and simply state his conclusions as fact. Would you really find that reasoning anything but laughable?

So are you saying that providing examples of rhetoric and hyperbole will result in people treating my points as valid and well constructed and this thread will have a productive outcome? I think we can agree that all that will happen is people pointing out similar examples on the left in an attempt to invalidate my point (when in many cases I'd agree with their examples and wonder why they felt compelled to offer them in the first place), and I'd frankly rather not have to defend each example point by point because this is a tiresome exercise when I'm focusing on bigger pictures questions, and especially when nobody yes yet to disagree that there isn't a vocal population on the right (and left) that are utilizing a lot of hyperbole and rhetoric. I mean, is this even debatable?

That being said, I agree with your points here, I'm just cynical that a change in tactic will really make much difference.

I guess the question that is worth asking is if I don't feel like this thread will have a productive outcome, then why bother? I guess my hope is that the sheer repetition overblown rhetoric over and over and over and over again and people preaching to the same choir without having their arguments pick up any traction will illuminate upon the notion that this is a pretty tiresome exercise?

How is a "statement of empirical observation" different from a "fact?"

A fact can be proven and rationalized outside of the lens of our own personal experiences.

[besson3c]

Never mind... You're right Skeleton, I'm just spinning my tires here, this was a rather ill-conceived thread.

It is now about ass guns.

[Dork.]

What are ass guns, really? Are they guns made from asses, or guns made especially to target asses?

[ort888]

Or a gun that shoots out asses?