[Athens]

I think my main point is the life we enjoy, our social status, wealth and access to stuff comes from our way of life. Thats taxes, controlled economics, social standards, collective contributions into systems that provide for us later, a way of doing things. This very way of life will erode with uncontrolled immigration unless immigrants contribute to the very same systems and way of life. If every a large portion of immigrants come here unskilled make low wages, so low contributions and at the same time brings entire families over who make use of medical and social systems never paying a dime into it the systems will collapse. Its vitally important that immigrants are contributors.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I think my main point is the life we enjoy, our social status, wealth and access to stuff comes from our way of life. Thats taxes, controlled economics, social standards, collective contributions into systems that provide for us later, a way of doing things. This very way of life will erode with uncontrolled immigration unless immigrants contribute to the very same systems and way of life. If every a large portion of immigrants come here unskilled make low wages, so low contributions and at the same time brings entire families over who make use of medical and social systems never paying a dime into it the systems will collapse. Its vitally important that immigrants are contributors.

Exactly. The problem is that not only are the immigration flood gates open, but that we have a multicultural doctrine that is held to the most idealistic form of any other place in the world. People who have no experience living in Canada; people who aren't aware of the socio-political structures and laws currently in place as a direct result of this doctrine, don't understand the problems we are facing.

Being able to wear turbans in our military because of your heritage is a glowing example of the extent to which this country has modified its laws, policies and practices for immigrants. In no other part of the world, both developed and undeveloped, is multiculturalism upheld in such an idealistic way.

As Athens pointed out, all this has done is created subcultures of people who live in their own insulated, cultural vacuums. And now these insulated pockets of cultures, complete with their own religions and beliefs, are rooted in the government. It's like little countries all living under one roof. All the hate and tension remains intact, and in some cases, their way of life and beliefs significantly compromises the values and beliefs that this country was built on. This threatens everything that Canada stands for.

How would you Americans feel if people in your military were allowed to wear turbans and have their hair grown out, including beards... because of their religious background? You wouldn't stand for it, and don't tell me you would because you wouldn't. This is just the tip of the iceberg of how this country bends over backwards for immigrants. We've been tolerant for many years, but things are slipping and it's time for immigration policy reform.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

As Athens pointed out, all this has done is created subcultures of people who live in their own insulated, cultural vacuums.

I love how the proposed solution to the problem of these supposed "insulated, cultural vacuums" is to create our own insulated, cultural vacuum ...

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I see what you did there. You seized on the most attractive one. Playah!

The one in the light blue dress on the right is kinda cute too, in a multicultural librarian sort of way.

P.S. The guy in the middle kind of looks like the guy in The Mummy Returns.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I love how the proposed solution to the problem of these supposed "insulated, cultural vacuums" is to create our own insulated, cultural vacuum ...

This makes no sense whatever. A country is a country because it stands for something. Do you want to live in China? Probably not. Do you want to live in India? Probably not. Denying that cultures are distinct from one another is absurd. It does mean something if you're American. It does mean something if you're Chinese. It does mean something if you're Russian. Not sure what it means to be Canadian anymore.

A country and its culture is made to be through the sharing of common values and beliefs. We don't have that here under multiculturalism. Sorry, it's not working.

[Eug]

Let's just say I prefer living in the Canada of 2010 than I did the Canada of the awesome 80s.

To be Canadian, at least in a big city, means we're not stuck in the mono-culture of places like big-city China... or small town Canada for that matter.

[besson3c]

freudling: your summarization of your points started out well, but then it lost focus (at least to me), and I still don't know what you think we should do?

Integrating cultures is not without problems, it has always been that way and always will, but I'm having a hard time taking from what you written what should be done about this?

[Eug]

Lisa Ray, Canadian, of Polish and Indian descent.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Exactly. The problem is that not only are the immigration flood gates open, but that we have a multicultural doctrine that is held to the most idealistic form of any other place in the world. People who have no experience living in Canada; people who aren't aware of the socio-political structures and laws currently in place as a direct result of this doctrine, don't understand the problems we are facing.

Being able to wear turbans in our military because of your heritage is a glowing example of the extent to which this country has modified its laws, policies and practices for immigrants. In no other part of the world, both developed and undeveloped, is multiculturalism upheld in such an idealistic way.

As Athens pointed out, all this has done is created subcultures of people who live in their own insulated, cultural vacuums. And now these insulated pockets of cultures, complete with their own religions and beliefs, are rooted in the government. It's like little countries all living under one roof. All the hate and tension remains intact, and in some cases, their way of life and beliefs significantly compromises the values and beliefs that this country was built on. This threatens everything that Canada stands for.

How would you Americans feel if people in your military were allowed to wear turbans and have their hair grown out, including beards... because of their religious background? You wouldn't stand for it, and don't tell me you would because you wouldn't. This is just the tip of the iceberg of how this country bends over backwards for immigrants. We've been tolerant for many years, but things are slipping and it's time for immigration policy reform.

The one sad thing about our changing society is how the immigrants even those that are not Christian do more Christmas decorations and have more Christmas spirit then our fracking PC leaders and businesses...

Vancouver Metro

Main Story, University study on Christmas decorations. Even the Buddist put up a tree at there temple....

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I love how the proposed solution to the problem of these supposed "insulated, cultural vacuums" is to create our own insulated, cultural vacuum ...

They moved here of there free will, are you telling me if you moved to China you would expect the Chinese people to transform into Americans just for you.....

[besson3c]

Athens: you guys have identified the problem, but what should be done? I'm sorry if you've spelled this out and I've missed this.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Let's just say I prefer living in the Canada of 2010 than I did the Canada of the awesome 80s.

To be Canadian, at least in a big city, means we're not stuck in the mono-culture of places like big-city China... or small town Canada for that matter.

I prefer the mid 90's when it was still multicultural..

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Athens: you guys have identified the problem, but what should be done? I'm sorry if you've spelled this out and I've missed this.

I've put of 4 posts at least on what should be done about it.

In a nut shell, locational limits, open up more immigration from the US, Africa, Europe and closed down or greatly restrict Asia for a while until things even out.

Better screening for suitability, IE make sure they understand if they move here your wife is a free woman, that homosexuality is acceptable here and do a proper background check to ensure no criminal activity, the educational credentials are not forged and there overall opinion and feeling of the West. If they are extremely Anti American chances are they are anti Western Culture period.

Upon arrival mandatory cultural classes that focus on
- Functional English
- History
- Tax System and Economic system
- Social System
- Rights, Responsibilities and Expectations

Minimum probational period of 5 years at which any crime gets them booted out. This includes tax evasion and domestic violence as well.

Cant get a drivers license unless you can take the test in English with out any translator period. So it if takes 2 years to understand english enough to drive in a English country so be it.

If they intend to bring the entire family it will cost $60 000 per family member who is over the age of 55 which goes straight into CPP, Medical and so forth as those immigrants will never be net contributors of the social system supporting them later. Application to bring family members must be made in the first year of arrival and family members can't arrive until the 5 year probational period is completed at which time the person bringing the family over is equally responsible for any crimes committed by any members of his family.

Exception would be actual refugee's which case each member of the family must independently qualify to refugee status. Can't apply to bring your family here period.

Ideally I would prefer every immigrant to be sponsored by a Canadian family during the first 2 years which includes mandatory education on western culture and values and to live in a home of a Canadian family before being going out on there own. I would sponsor a immigrant every few years.

Being super rich shouldn't buy you a get in free card like SOOO many immigrants from China use. I rather have the poorest people from Africa or Afghanistan even as long as they are hard workers and willing to learn the language and adapt to our western culture over Rich people buying there way in and living in isolated communities.

HK Chinese = Profitable Immigrants and small family numbers. Indians = hard working immigrants but massive families. Time to open the doors to other parts of the world.

Did you know its super hard for Americans to immigrate to Canada but because of the commonwealth relationship places like Hong Kong, India and other places its dam easy for former colony citizens to move here. Thats messed up if you ask me.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I prefer the mid 90's when it was still multicultural..

I prefer 2010, which is even more multicultural. In fact, that's why I live in Toronto, because it is so multicultural.

Cant get a drivers license unless you can take the test in English with out any translator period. So it if takes 2 years to understand english enough to drive in a English country so be it.

That wouldn't fly so well in Quebec.

If they intend to bring the entire family it will cost $60 000 per family member who is over the age of 55 which goes straight into CPP, Medical and so forth as those immigrants will never be net contributors of the social system supporting them later.

Long live the head tax!

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

freudling: your summarization of your points started out well, but then it lost focus (at least to me), and I still don't know what you think we should do?

Integrating cultures is not without problems, it has always been that way and always will, but I'm having a hard time taking from what you written what should be done about this?

Replace multiculturalism with a more melting pot doctrine.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I prefer 2010, which is even more multicultural. In fact, that's why I live in Toronto, because it is so multicultural.

Not in Vancouver, NOT in Vancouver.

That wouldn't fly so well in Quebec.

French in Quebec dude which currently is a requirement there. Quebec actually has it right with its own separate immigration policies.

Long live the head tax!

[/quote]

Nothing wrong with it as long as its applied to every one equally. The only reason head tax on Chinese was wrong because it was only for the Chinese as a attempt to slow immigration from China.

If your bringing family members 55+ from any country, USofA, Poland, Japan, Russia, Denmark, then a extra $60 000+ is absolutely acceptable since they didn't work a day in there life here and didn't contribute a cent to the social system that will be looking after them. I must be debating a 17 year old who has no concept of money and what pays for roads, medical, Pensions.....

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I've put of 4 posts at least on what should be done about it.

In a nut shell, locational limits, open up more immigration from the US, Africa, Europe and closed down or greatly restrict Asia for a while until things even out.

Better screening for suitability, IE make sure they understand if they move here your wife is a free woman, that homosexuality is acceptable here and do a proper background check to ensure no criminal activity, the educational credentials are not forged and there overall opinion and feeling of the West. If they are extremely Anti American chances are they are anti Western Culture period.

Upon arrival mandatory cultural classes that focus on
- Functional English
- History
- Tax System and Economic system
- Social System
- Rights, Responsibilities and Expectations

Minimum probational period of 5 years at which any crime gets them booted out. This includes tax evasion and domestic violence as well.

Cant get a drivers license unless you can take the test in English with out any translator period. So it if takes 2 years to understand english enough to drive in a English country so be it.

If they intend to bring the entire family it will cost $60 000 per family member who is over the age of 55 which goes straight into CPP, Medical and so forth as those immigrants will never be net contributors of the social system supporting them later. Application to bring family members must be made in the first year of arrival and family members can't arrive until the 5 year probational period is completed at which time the person bringing the family over is equally responsible for any crimes committed by any members of his family.

Exception would be actual refugee's which case each member of the family must independently qualify to refugee status. Can't apply to bring your family here period.

Ideally I would prefer every immigrant to be sponsored by a Canadian family during the first 2 years which includes mandatory education on western culture and values and to live in a home of a Canadian family before being going out on there own. I would sponsor a immigrant every few years.

Being super rich shouldn't buy you a get in free card like SOOO many immigrants from China use. I rather have the poorest people from Africa or Afghanistan even as long as they are hard workers and willing to learn the language and adapt to our western culture over Rich people buying there way in and living in isolated communities.

HK Chinese = Profitable Immigrants and small family numbers. Indians = hard working immigrants but massive families. Time to open the doors to other parts of the world.

Did you know its super hard for Americans to immigrate to Canada but because of the commonwealth relationship places like Hong Kong, India and other places its dam easy for former colony citizens to move here. Thats messed up if you ask me.

You nailed it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Replace multiculturalism with a more melting pot doctrine.

Like we have in America?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I've put of 4 posts at least on what should be done about it.

In a nut shell, locational limits, open up more immigration from the US, Africa, Europe and closed down or greatly restrict Asia for a while until things even out.

Makes sense, but how are these sorts of quotas decided? Evenness? Economic impact? Demand?

Better screening for suitability, IE make sure they understand if they move here your wife is a free woman, that homosexuality is acceptable here and do a proper background check to ensure no criminal activity, the educational credentials are not forged and there overall opinion and feeling of the West. If they are extremely Anti American chances are they are anti Western Culture period.

How would this work? People can say whatever they want and can be easily coached to pass an interview, if this is what you are driving at. If not, could you be more specific?

I'm with you on looking into criminal and education credentials. Is this not already happening?

Upon arrival mandatory cultural classes that focus on
- Functional English
- History
- Tax System and Economic system
- Social System
- Rights, Responsibilities and Expectations

Who pays for these? What language(s) are they offered in? Where are they given? How long should they be? Specifics?

Minimum probational period of 5 years at which any crime gets them booted out. This includes tax evasion and domestic violence as well.

Doesn't it take 3 years or so to be granted permanent residency status? If so, this would provide these stipulations for this time period, whatever that period is.

Cant get a drivers license unless you can take the test in English with out any translator period. So it if takes 2 years to understand english enough to drive in a English country so be it.

When I did my drivers test and training in Toronto this was already expected. Has this changed?

If they intend to bring the entire family it will cost $60 000 per family member who is over the age of 55 which goes straight into CPP, Medical and so forth as those immigrants will never be net contributors of the social system supporting them later. Application to bring family members must be made in the first year of arrival and family members can't arrive until the 5 year probational period is completed at which time the person bringing the family over is equally responsible for any crimes committed by any members of his family.

Any specific reasoning behind the $60 000, or is this just a number that seems sensible to you?

Ideally I would prefer every immigrant to be sponsored by a Canadian family during the first 2 years which includes mandatory education on western culture and values and to live in a home of a Canadian family before being going out on there own. I would sponsor a immigrant every few years.

How would overseeing the living with a Canadian family thing work?

Being super rich shouldn't buy you a get in free card like SOOO many immigrants from China use. I rather have the poorest people from Africa or Afghanistan even as long as they are hard workers and willing to learn the language and adapt to our western culture over Rich people buying there way in and living in isolated communities.

But you want immigration to cost $60 000 if it involves older people? Doesn't this contradict what you've written here?

HK Chinese = Profitable Immigrants and small family numbers. Indians = hard working immigrants but massive families. Time to open the doors to other parts of the world.

Again, how do we determine what these quotas are?

Did you know its super hard for Americans to immigrate to Canada but because of the commonwealth relationship places like Hong Kong, India and other places its dam easy for former colony citizens to move here. Thats messed up if you ask me.

Yeah, I don't understand the commonwealth thing...

[Athens]

Ok lets focus on a few areas since this is going nowhere

1) Language, should immigrants to any country be expected to learn a functional amount of the host nations national language. Not perfect but enough to operate un-assisted in the nation. In the case of Canada, US, England that would be English (French in Quebec) In the case of France it would be French. In the case of Germany that would be German. In the case of China one of the main Chinese languages since they have many too? Obviously this wouldn't be expected of a 70 year old but some one coming here to work yes it would be.

Is this at all unreasonable.

2) A head tax as Eug puts it on non contributing immigrants, those that are of a age that no reasonable expectation of meaningful work or contribution to the social care systems including medical, pension, welfare, reduced price housing, food stamps and so on that the rest of the nations citizens spend there entire lives contributing to. At some point 55+ immigrants will end up using the systems.

3) Screening of some diseases such as HIV which would require a head tax at any age.

4) Full Criminal background check and education credentials check. Immigrants are then given both a criminal clearance document and a comparable education certificate from one of our schools as long as the training was equivalent and of same standards. (This would actually be beneficial to immigrants who suffer lower paying jobs because employer's are suspect of educational claims. This might actually help them get better jobs.

5) One strike your out, commit a single crime of any kind your held, fat tracked through the legal system in a special new arm of the justice system and if convicted put on a plane home. Any appeals have to be made from country of origin. No putting them in Jail here wasting tax dollars.

6) 5 Year period of wait before a immigrant can even start to bring family members who have to qualify the same as above. BTW this is for all immigrants. Even Americans.

Lets focus on these 6 first, yay's or neys. If you are for it why, if your against it why. Im curious on the reasons why we should allow older immigrants to bleed our social network dry with no contributions. What possible reasons support that to be against a sur charge to pay for the future care they will need.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Not in Vancouver, NOT in Vancouver.

Everything is always different where you live.

You don't live in Vancouver anyway. Coquitlam doesn't count.

I must be debating a 17 year old who has no concept of money and what pays for roads, medical, Pensions.....

Yeah, must be.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

1) Language, should immigrants to any country be expected to learn a functional amount of the host nations national language. Not perfect but enough to operate un-assisted in the nation. In the case of Canada, US, England that would be English (French in Quebec) In the case of France it would be French. In the case of Germany that would be German. In the case of China one of the main Chinese languages since they have many too? Obviously this wouldn't be expected of a 70 year old but some one coming here to work yes it would be.

Is this at all unreasonable.

No, but learning the native language is already expected, it just isn't somehow enforced via oversight.

2) A head tax as Eug puts it on non contributing immigrants, those that are of a age that no reasonable expectation of meaningful work or contribution to the social care systems including medical, pension, welfare, reduced price housing, food stamps and so on that the rest of the nations citizens spend there entire lives contributing to. At some point 55+ immigrants will end up using the systems.

Okay, but what should this number be, and should it be modified based on race and/or income? If you want to bring in people living in poverty, that $60 000 figure is going to be difficult.

3) Screening of some diseases such as HIV which would require a head tax at any age.

Aren't full medical records already required for immigration?

4) Full Criminal background check and education credentials check. Immigrants are then given both a criminal clearance document and a comparable education certificate from one of our schools as long as the training was equivalent and of same standards. (This would actually be beneficial to immigrants who suffer lower paying jobs because employer's are suspect of educational claims. This might actually help them get better jobs.

We can't even get our universities in colleges here in North America to agree on these standards when transferring these credits, how would you expect this to occur globally?

Full criminal background checks I'm with you on, but again, don't these already happen?

5) One strike your out, commit a single crime of any kind your held, fat tracked through the legal system in a special new arm of the justice system and if convicted put on a plane home. Any appeals have to be made from country of origin. No putting them in Jail here wasting tax dollars.

Including speeding and parking tickets? Caught smoking pot? I'm assuming you mean heavier crimes...

Is this in perpetuity? In your last post you talked about a probationary period, what happened with that? Why should somebody who was been a resident and eventually even a naturalized citizen with a clean record for 15 years be sent back to their country rather than tried in the court of the country they have legal residency in? This doesn't make any sense, sorry...

6) 5 Year period of wait before a immigrant can even start to bring family members who have to qualify the same as above. BTW this is for all immigrants. Even Americans.

This is already in place, or however long it takes to become a citizen. Permanent residents cannot sponsor family members, AFAIK.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Permanent residents cannot sponsor family members, AFAIK.

Yes they can.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yes they can.

Yeah, that's right... Fair enough Athens. What about political asylum though? Exceptions?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Makes sense, but how are these sorts of quotas decided? Evenness? Economic impact? Demand?

I would say all of the above.

How would this work? People can say whatever they want and can be easily coached to pass an interview, if this is what you are driving at. If not, could you be more specific?

Same way a cop interviews a person. Need to hire and train specialist from countries of origin who speak fluid local language and knows the local culture who would be best trained to question immigrants. I would mirror it like the current passport system to requiring 2 non family member professionals to reference any immigrant such as a doctor or lawyer or tax account (exceptions for countries that don't have that with some other way) a family member and a friend reference who all get a phone interview to asses the person applying for immigration. While nothing is perfect and some one really determined to enter fraudulently will, it will greatly reduce the number of unsuitable people.

I'm with you on looking into criminal and education credentials. Is this not already happening?

nothing on education, you produce a document that says you have a degree its accepted as is. Very limited criminal checks are done. Its really based on the countries of origin ability to keep track of criminal records and some places its weak same with identification. Due to the lower standards of identification and record keeping the references i mention above the more in depth screening will assist in that. Being able to verify identity is a important part. In order for me to get a Passport I have to provide such references and proof, why not require the same for those who want to come here.

Who pays for these? What language(s) are they offered in? Where are they given? How long should they be? Specifics?

Previous post actually went into specifics, cost comes from Immigrant, we already require a $20 000 fee for most immigrant classes now, raise more to pay for language and education training. When they come out they will be more viable workers more suitable for higher paying better jobs meaning it pays itself back.

Doesn't it take 3 years or so to be granted permanent residency status? If so, this would provide these stipulations for this time period, whatever that period is.

You and your dependants must satisfy the visa officer that you meet the requirements of the Canadian Immigration Act and Regulations. You must:
meet the health requirements;
be law abiding;
not be a risk to the security of Canada;
have a valid passport or travel document;
have enough money to look after yourself and your dependants in Canada until you become self-supporting;
produce all documents requested by the visa officer to establish your admissibility; and
pay the processing fee to Immigration and Citizenship Canada.
in addition, you must score sufficient points under the selection system.

Other words immediately. Its Citizenship that requires 3 years of non interrupted residency with exceptions permitting leaves for family issues and such.

When I did my drivers test and training in Toronto this was already expected. Has this changed?

In BC drivers license from other countries exempt you from the graduating licensing system. Those from countries with incompatible licenses have to take a driving test. Thing is they don't need to speak English. They are permitted a translator for the written test and driven test. Last year 2500 licenses got revoked because it was discovered that the translators where being paid to give them the answers and couch them through the tests. If the instructor can't communicate to the person taking the test and has to rely on a family member or friend to translate everything it cant be a fair test.

[quote]

Any specific reasoning behind the $60 000, or is this just a number that seems sensible to you?
[/quote

Average Canadian pays $1500 a year in Medical, CPP and other social systems and averaged it around a 40 year work life. Most of us contribute about $60 000 personally into the systems. To be really fair would have to be at least double that since I didn't factor in contributions from businesses. But $60 000 is not a impossible number and considering how Rich Asians are coming here and how hard working East Indians are the 2 largest groups of immigrants it seems like a realistic number.

How would overseeing the living with a Canadian family thing work?

Family would accept responsibility for providing shelter, food. Be expected to take and show them the community, assist in studies such as English providing a English environment that forces the use of the language. They will benefit learning how Canadians interact with each other, services offered, simple things like garbage collection, woman being treated equal, taxes. It would be no different then a foreign exchange student how they benefit with local family living.

But you want immigration to cost $60 000 if it involves older people? Doesn't this contradict what you've written here?

No because older immigrants are not eligible on there own. They are only eligible when a family member wants to bring them over like a son. And I don't have a problem with some one bringing there family over as long as the social network is compensated for the added un-contributed expense of it. Generally speaking old immigrants are not even the problem they actually try to adapt here. Its the younger ones that are the problem.

Again, how do we determine what these quotas are?

As I said all of the above. If one form of immigration has become 80% of the immigrants coming here that is unbalanced, needs to be limited. Open the doors for other immigrants. We already have partial quotas for immigrants, those with money can just buy there way in vs the normal skill class of immigrants.

Yeah, I don't understand the commonwealth thing...

Left over BS of being a Crown Country that still has a place for the Queen.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, but learning the native language is already expected, it just isn't somehow enforced via oversight.

ESL Learners

last paragraph, main point is now its becoming the teenage years due to non English schools. Students from Korea for example can do there entire elementary education in Koren only private schools and hit public high schools needing English training. Students born and lived there entire lives here.

Okay, but what should this number be, and should it be modified based on race and/or income? If you want to bring in people living in poverty, that $60 000 figure is going to be difficult.

People living in poverty already can't afford to move here in the current system. Education/Skills class are the only option for poor people. Majority of immigrants are high income people. A person who has lived here and worked for 5 years should have no issues borrowing $120 000 from the bank to pay to bring parents over either.

Aren't full medical records already required for immigration?

Medical exam those with medical issues are not allowed to immigrate. Personally have no problem with it if they pay a head tax for the condition putting them on level ground with Canadians who have also paid similar amounts into the system even if the care costs 10x more then what they put in.

We can't even get our universities in colleges here in North America to agree on these standards when transferring these credits, how would you expect this to occur globally?

Professional services like nursing is pretty standardized around the world for the most part already. Wouldn't take much to build a accredited system. Some places would have to make modifications to current education to meet it.

Full criminal background checks I'm with you on, but again, don't these already happen?

No

Including speeding and parking tickets? Caught smoking pot? I'm assuming you mean heavier crimes...

All criminal code violations. Speeding 20 over isn't the same as excessive speeding over 40km/h
.05 Alcohol level isn't the same as .08 in the criminal code. If its a jailable offence then ya.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yeah, that's right... Fair enough Athens. What about political asylum though? Exceptions?

There is always exceptions, I even said that above

Exception would be actual refugee's which case each member of the family must independently qualify to refugee status. Can't apply to bring your family here period.

Refugees are totally different from immigrants.

[Athens]

The enrollment controversy* - Canada - Macleans.ca

I finally got around to reading this article that some Chinese members of Government are blasting as racist and I don't find it racist at all....

This says it all

"That’s not to say Asian students form any sort of monolithic presence on Canadian campuses. “The mainland China group tends to stick together,” says Anthony Wong, 19, a Waterloo software engineering student. “We can talk to them,” says Jonathan Ing, also 19 and in Waterloo’s software engineering program, “but we don’t mingle.” Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?” Meanwhile, Calgarian Joyce Chau identifies as “completely whitewashed,” a “banana”: “I look Asian but I’m white in all other respects.” Chau, a 19-year-old UBC business student, lived in residence her first year, where she met the majority of her (white) friends. “It’s harder to integrate into a group with Asians—you may or may not get introduced,” says Chau, who accepts the segregation as just “part of the university experience.”"

"Toope says drawing the various communities present on Canadian campuses into a common medium can be challenging. “Across Canada it isn’t always the case that you’re seeing as much engagement from the new communities as perhaps we should,” he says. Toope uses the experience of Turkish immigrants in Germany as a cautionary tale—“there are groups that never find a way to participate in the broader community.” Such circumstances persist precisely because the issue of race is not attacked head on. “I don’t want to pretend that just because you have people from different backgrounds they’re going to interact—they’re not,” Toope says. “We have to actually create mechanisms, programs and opportunities for people to interact. A university is one of the places that has the greatest capacity to work through demographic change.”"

[besson3c]

There are some workable ideas in there, but let's say that we can prove that some or all of your ideas will improve matters in some tangible manner... How is this paid for?

I don't know about Canada these days, but immigration processing here is a very long process, and immigration centers are always extremely backlogged. With what you are proposing you are introducing all sorts of new paperwork, procedures, oversight, systems, and bureaucracy. Do the benefits outweigh the costs of adding all of this stuff?

What do you estimate the costs to be to:

- conduct these suitability interviews (which I'm pretty sure already happen in some fashion, but...)

- working with all of these countries to provide some educational standards to assess/verify educational credentials, and to keep all of these records up-to-date every x number of years

- making criminal background checks more robust (assuming that they are indeed currently limited)

- by disbanding the exemptions for retaking driving tests based on diplomatic agreements with other countries each customer will be asked to pay more to offset the costs of this increased demand in driver tests and exam processing. Is the cost increase warranted here with tangible reasons that justify this that can be outlined to the voting public?

How would oversight of that family exchange thing work? You completely dodged this question.

As far as your $60 000 goes I still don't see how this contradicts your not wanting to limit green cards to the rich?

I'm not sure what you are proposing with your one strike you're out thing given that this is already the case (AFAIK) while immigration paperwork is being processed?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

ESL Learners

last paragraph, main point is now its becoming the teenage years due to non English schools. Students from Korea for example can do there entire elementary education in Koren only private schools and hit public high schools needing English training. Students born and lived there entire lives here.

The point of ESL is so that students can continue to learn other subjects and keep up with their English speaking peers without having to halt everything else while they devote all of their time to learning the new language. Do you want to get rid of this sort of thing, or just tweak it? If the latter, how?

People living in poverty already can't afford to move here in the current system. Education/Skills class are the only option for poor people. Majority of immigrants are high income people. A person who has lived here and worked for 5 years should have no issues borrowing $120 000 from the bank to pay to bring parents over either.

So is this good? I thought you didn't want immigration to be made easier for the rich?

Medical exam those with medical issues are not allowed to immigrate. Personally have no problem with it if they pay a head tax for the condition putting them on level ground with Canadians who have also paid similar amounts into the system even if the care costs 10x more then what they put in.

What about people that travel, should they need to take medical exams to avoid bringing disease back into the country?

Professional services like nursing is pretty standardized around the world for the most part already. Wouldn't take much to build a accredited system. Some places would have to make modifications to current education to meet it.

No offense, but this is pretty naive. This would be an absolutely *massive* undertaking... HUGE. And, there would still be problems and imperfections. Besides, what's the point? Most employers don't investigate educational credentials to ensure they match what is claimed, and there are many employers who are happy to pay recent immigrants to do menial labour.

No

Why not?

All criminal code violations. Speeding 20 over isn't the same as excessive speeding over 40km/h
.05 Alcohol level isn't the same as .08 in the criminal code. If its a jailable offence then ya.

You have dodged my question about the probationary periods. This is quite unclear.

I'm starting to run out of steam here, although parts of this conversation have been interesting, but do you get my point? There are a gazillion details here, this can't all just be about philosophy and ideology... If it is though, you'd make a good Republican here in the US

[freudling]

Couple points I'll add, which I believe I referenced a few pages back. I see questions about people asking whether immigrants are checked out or not. Here's form the Centre for Immigration Policy Reform:

A partial answer:

Only 17% of immigrants admitted each year are fully assessed on the basis of their employment and language skills.

It is estimated that recent immigrants receive billions of dollars a year more in benefits than they pay in taxes.

The problems with immigration in Canada, as has been pointed out, particularly by Athens, is that 1) There are too many people coming from Asia 2) There are far too many holes in the immigration system.

You saw that video posted above, about Vancouver's Eastside? In the very beginning... the guy he's talking to... the guy who is clearly an immigrant without citizenship, and likely an illegal immigrant... Could you imagine that being in America. Do you really think the cop being filmed on national television would not arrest that person for a) dealing drugs b) being an illegal immigrant? No, he'd be arrested immediately and processed.

You have no idea how tolerant we are here. And tolerance is good, to a point. Our immigration system... all of its policies need to be revamped. It does not promote immigration in terms of there being an equal distribution across the world. It is significantly skewed Asian, and unfairly so.

The screening needs to be stronger. They should learn from the screening in the Canadian Forces. Everyone should have a full criminal record and background check. That means Form TBS-330-23E should not only be filled out, but fully administered. That means the checks should carry through to the home country, where full background and criminal record checks can be done. There should be no exceptions here.

The next question is, why isn't this done properly? Time and money for starters. It can take over 2 years to do a proper check on someone from a foreign country. Visas expired typically after 6 months. So go back to your own country and wait for the proper checks to be done... And how easy is it to get visa extensions here?

BTW, I live in a new Condo building, and its not on the eastside. Apartments here are about half a million and up. Immigration Canada was here the other day breaking my neighbour's door down. I knew it would happen eventually. Full of what I suspected were illegal immigrants. I just can't believe how far and deep it runs. It's inescapable. Good hood, bad hood, doesn't seem to matter.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There are some workable ideas in there, but let's say that we can prove that some or all of your ideas will improve matters in some tangible manner... How is this paid for?

I don't know about Canada these days, but immigration processing here is a very long process, and immigration centers are always extremely backlogged. With what you are proposing you are introducing all sorts of new paperwork, procedures, oversight, systems, and bureaucracy. Do the benefits outweigh the costs of adding all of this stuff?

Of course the benefits outweigh any other incurred costs. But let's put it this way. It's going to stop people from being here who shouldn't. It's going to save millions, likely hundreds of millions of dollars or even more on healthcare costs spent on people who a) shouldn't be here b) are in the process of being deported. Also, by making it more difficult to immigrate here, you're discouraging "everyone" from applying. Our backlog I think was close to 700,000. We admitted about 250,000 last year. And the reason you have long waits and backlogs is because you probably doing it right...

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What do you estimate the costs to be to:

- conduct these suitability interviews (which I'm pretty sure already happen in some fashion, but...)

These interviews, interviewing everyone fully, will certainly add to the cost, because we'll need to hire more interview officers, but several interviews can be done each day per officer. Assessments are quick because of the assessment system used. It's not that complex. By the number of CIC processing centres in Canada, it may translate to upwards of 50 more officers on payroll, or $4 million, along with some other stuff to go with it. The practical solution would be to install more of these officers at Embassys abroad, not just here at CICs nationally. This will ensure a fair and objective process from start to finish.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- working with all of these countries to provide some educational standards to assess/verify educational credentials, and to keep all of these records up-to-date every x number of years

We already have this process set up. I believe Canada uses CICIC.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- making criminal background checks more robust (assuming that they are indeed currently limited)

See my other post about screening. There's a central office in Ottawa that carries out all the screening for all government departments and agencies. CIC should fully utilize the screening process. And the good thing about this is, the costs will not be fully borne by CIC because DPMSEC in Ottawa is its own department, servicing everyone. Their budget would have to go up slightly, but lots of economies of scale there. A lot of it is electronic so... $ wise, it's negligible.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

As far as your $60 000 goes I still don't see how this contradicts your not wanting to limit green cards to the rich?

There's more to admittance than just this tax. With the fully reformed policies, it won't just be rich that come here. What Athens is advancing is that we need skilled, productive members of the workforce. Older people being sponsored by their families are typically not productive members of our society. This would discourage their coming here. It's a built-in, fair policy to push skilled workers, and it applies in a new policy rubric where admittance is based more on education and skills rather than wealth.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm not sure what you are proposing with your one strike you're out thing given that this is already the case (AFAIK) while immigration paperwork is being processed?

It's certainly not the rule here. No way. We're/CIC is tolerant. Go watch that Vancouver east side video again.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There are some workable ideas in there, but let's say that we can prove that some or all of your ideas will improve matters in some tangible manner... How is this paid for?

Costs should be put on the immigrants excluding skill based immigrants and refugees.

I don't know about Canada these days, but immigration processing here is a very long process, and immigration centers are always extremely backlogged. With what you are proposing you are introducing all sorts of new paperwork, procedures, oversight, systems, and bureaucracy. Do the benefits outweigh the costs of adding all of this stuff?

Yes, it benefits every one

What do you estimate the costs to be to:

- conduct these suitability interviews (which I'm pretty sure already happen in some fashion, but...)

Not much, you hire people in those countries to do it. $5000 is a good entire years wage in the Philippines for example. Costs of not doing it is just as high with jailed immigrants, low wage earning immigrants, policing, social services and courts.

- by disbanding the exemptions for retaking driving tests based on diplomatic agreements with other countries each customer will be asked to pay more to offset the costs of this increased demand in driver tests and exam processing. Is the cost increase warranted here with tangible reasons that justify this that can be outlined to the voting public?

You have no idea how bad immigrant drivers are here, seriously google it. Even Asians complain about other Asians. Personally im all for mandatory re-testing of all drivers period every 5 years.

How would oversight of that family exchange thing work? You completely dodged this question.

I think I misunderstood your question. I thought i did address it. I will tomorrow its late my pain meds are waring off, as you can see by my short answers here im not all here right now. I'll address this one in more detail tomorrow.

As far as your $60 000 goes I still don't see how this contradicts your not wanting to limit green cards to the rich?

I'm not sure what you are proposing with your one strike you're out thing given that this is already the case (AFAIK) while immigration paperwork is being processed?

Um no, its not like that now, it can take several offences to actually get a deportation order and once that occurs it can take 6-8 years to actually kick them out. If the crime is serious enough we dont deport them we jail them.

[freudling]

Just don't forget who makes Canada cool; who makes Canada Canada:

YouTube - Molson Canadian - Made From Canada

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Please read and understand posts before you reply. Never did I imply that there was anything wrong with Asians driving nice cars, or living in nice houses. The point is what you see is not indicative of what the Canada Revenue Agency has for national averages among this group. Read around, there has even been press on this very subject.

Oh ya, and how many Asian restaurants in Vancouver have fake cash registers? Lots. Go do some more reading on sophisticated tax scams involving Asian restaurants around the Lower Mainland.

I understood you just fine.

You are implying that Asians who drive nice cars and live in nice houses lie and cheat their way there. I'm saying many Asians immigrants who drive nice cars and live in nice houses in Canada are already rich before immigrating to Canada. Many Asians afford nicer houses for their salary is because they save a lot of money on food and shelter by having many generations living under one roof. Canada is giving out Canadian citizenship to Asians who can afford to buy up property and buy their citizenship. Lots of wealthy Asians are buying up property in Vancouver.

Wealthy Chinese put house hunting on Vancouver vacation itinerary

Tax cheats are not limited to Asians. There are tax cheats from all races.

Fake cash registers? Eh. Why do they need fake cash registers to cheat on taxes? Does the Canadian government come in and count the cash register every single day?

Some of the biggest white collar crimes are committed by White people such as Worldcom and Enron. Are you saying White folks are a bunch of crooks and white collar criminals? Why do you insist Asians are a bunch of tax cheats?

I bet those restaurant tax cheats pay a higher tax rate than Google does. Google pays like 2.4% in taxes due to tax loopholes.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I understood you just fine.

You are implying that Asians who drive nice cars and live in nice houses lie and cheat their way there. I'm saying many Asians immigrants who drive nice cars and live in nice houses in Canada are already rich before immigrating to Canada. Many Asians afford nicer houses for their salary is because they save a lot of money on food and shelter by having many generations living under one roof. Canada is giving out Canadian citizenship to Asians who can afford to buy up property and buy their citizenship. Lots of wealthy Asians are buying up property in Vancouver.

You're just supporting Athens' and my argument that the current immigration policy is too skewed Asian. And rich Asian at that. The point is economic production. Incomes claimed in this group... national average, is just above the poverty line. It's just that the data shows that as a group they are low earners. Which leads to the point... several are wealthy before coming here. They buy up property, and that's that.

And thanks for pointing this out.

Wealthy Chinese put house hunting on Vancouver vacation itinerary

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Tax cheats are not limited to Asians. There are tax cheats from all races.

Fake cash registers? Eh. Why do they need fake cash registers to cheat on taxes? Does the Canadian government come in and count the cash register every single day?

Yes, tax cheats everywhere, of course.

However, if you have experience, you'll see blank receipts being rung through cash registers. It's common at Asian businesses. Sorry, but it is.

Here's an interesting story about tax issues:

Sushi restaurants accused of tax fraud

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Some of the biggest white collar crimes are committed by White people such as Worldcom and Enron. Are you saying White folks are a bunch of crooks and white collar criminals? Why do you insist Asians are a bunch of tax cheats?

I bet those restaurant tax cheats pay a higher tax rate than Google does. Google pays like 2.4% in taxes due to tax loopholes.

I have no idea where you're going with this. We're talking about Canada, and its immigration problems. Worldcom and Enron are not Canadian companies, neither is Google, and as far as I know, Canadians weren't involved in the scandals respectively. But even if some were, it changes nothing of the situation we are discussing here now. And as for Google, everything they are doing with their low tax rate is legal and approved by the IRS. You may not agree with the path they have chosen to lower their taxes, but it's all perfectly legal.

Canada + its immigration problems is what we're currently discussing... stay on track.

[Eug]

I'm a little confused about this whole issue of restaurants cheating taxes. It may surprise you, but this is extremely common for small mom & pop restaurants. Yes, go to Chinatown and you'll see it all over the place. However, go to a small town hole-in-the-wall and you'll often encounter the same thing. It's also more the norm than not for waiters/waitresses in restaurants of many ilk. I don't think I've ever known any waitress that reports 100% of her tips... unless she was forced to like at a big chain restaurant. Seriously, when the restaurant is charging $3.99 for steamed chicken, rice, and vegetables, or $3.99 for a full brunch meal, what do you expect?

Perhaps you should be campaiging for a new restaurant police force to crack down on all of this, and arrest all the restaurant "johns" that encourage $3.99 full meals.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Tax cheats are not limited to Asians. There are tax cheats from all races.

Race...... there is only one race of humans.

Fake cash registers? Eh. Why do they need fake cash registers to cheat on taxes? Does the Canadian government come in and count the cash register every single day?

Fake registers scams where busted a few years ago for tax evasion, was something like 10 different businesses in Richmond that all had ties to Korean Gangs. Only electronic transactions got recorded, those from Visa and Debit. All cash sales generated a single receipt for the customer and didn't record on the second internal roll for auditing. I haven't herd any thing about them for a while. Was just the tip of a larger problem with Credit Card and Debit Card skimming and replication operations, mail theft, fake identity scams, counterfeit money. A lot of high tech or complex crimes. The majority of the tax evasion comes from the East Indian's (Asians) not the Chinese (Asians)

Some of the biggest white collar crimes are committed by White people such as Worldcom and Enron. Are you saying White folks are a bunch of crooks and white collar criminals? Why do you insist Asians are a bunch of tax cheats?

Cuz they are and yes there is already enough crime here with out importing additional crime. The argument there is already crime here is useless because it changes nothing about importing additional crime.

[Athens]

Oh and btw 80% (a realistic number not trying to blow a high number up for the sake of it) of Asian (Chinese, Jap, Koren, Indian) businesses in Richmond operate cash only. No Credit Card, no Debit Cards. Just straight cash. I used to think it was to save on fee's but its pretty clear its for hiding cash sales.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Oh and btw 80% (a realistic number not trying to blow a high number up for the sake of it) of Asian (Chinese, Jap, Koren, Indian) businesses in Richmond operate cash only. No Credit Card, no Debit Cards. Just straight cash. I used to think it was to save on fee's but its pretty clear its for hiding cash sales.

Jap, a slur directed towards Japanese. It's Korean, not Koren.

Many small businesses operate cash only. Some don't want to pay credit card company those high fees. Some don't qualify, especially immigrants with little credit history. Some want to avoid the hassle of dealing with credit card fraud and chargebacks. Some want to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Jap, a slur directed towards Japanese.

Yep, just the use of the name "Jap" is considered pretty racist, roughly equivalent to "Paki", although in some circles "Jap" often means "Jewish American Princess".

Many small businesses operate cash only. Some don't want to pay credit card company those high fees. Some don't qualify, especially immigrants with little credit history. Some want to avoid the hassle of dealing with credit card fraud and chargebacks. Some want to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

Most of the local computer stores are cash-preferred but also take credit for a slightly higher price (which represents a 3% premium). One of them stopped doing that and just put everything at the higher price.

Contractors love cash deals, whether they are yellow, brown, white, black, or purple. (Well, I can't honestly say that about purple, since I haven't met any purple contractors.) Guess what? Their clients often love cash deals too, again whether they are yellow, brown, white, black, or purple. (Well, I can't honestly say that about purple, since I haven't met any purple clients.)

I recently had a tree cut down. It was all above board. I will admit however that I paid for the stump removal under the table. I paid no tax, and it was the Caucasian red-blooded Canadian that offered that deal to me.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Race...... there is only one race of humans.

I understand you like to substitute the word 'race' with the word 'culture' so you don't appear racist.

According to you, the Asian 'culture' is dirty and disgusting. They are lying tax cheats who have bad eyesight, can't drive, don't bother to learn English, and don't follow the law.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

jap, a slur directed towards japanese. It's korean, not koren.

Many small businesses operate cash only. Some don't want to pay credit card company those high fees. Some don't qualify, especially immigrants with little credit history. Some want to avoid the hassle of dealing with credit card fraud and chargebacks. Some want to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

bs.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'm a little confused about this whole issue of restaurants cheating taxes. It may surprise you, but this is extremely common for small mom & pop restaurants. Yes, go to Chinatown and you'll see it all over the place. However, go to a small town hole-in-the-wall and you'll often encounter the same thing. It's also more the norm than not for waiters/waitresses in restaurants of many ilk. I don't think I've ever known any waitress that reports 100% of her tips... unless she was forced to like at a big chain restaurant. Seriously, when the restaurant is charging $3.99 for steamed chicken, rice, and vegetables, or $3.99 for a full brunch meal, what do you expect?

Perhaps you should be campaiging for a new restaurant police force to crack down on all of this, and arrest all the restaurant "johns" that encourage $3.99 full meals.

I have been to small towns. Many of them. Didn't see what you're referring to.

[Click170]

Originally Posted by Eug 

To be honest, the more some of you talk, the more this just sounds like the same old racism that appears whenever new immigrants come. Yes, it's racism, plain and simple.

A century ago it was the Italians. 50 years ago it was the Jews. Now it's the Asians. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Sorry man but people like you are the biggest part of this problem.
No, it's not racism, and no, it's not plain and simple. The fact that you can't realize that tells me that you either aren't reading all of the posts, or aren't understanding / able to comprehend the arguments, data, and topics being covered here.

People like you who overgeneralize anything that involves race as racism are making the problem worse, not better.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yep, just the use of the name "Jap" is considered pretty racist, roughly equivalent to "Paki", although in some circles "Jap" often means "Jewish American Princess".


Most of the local computer stores are cash-preferred but also take credit for a slightly higher price (which represents a 3% premium). One of them stopped doing that and just put everything at the higher price.

Contractors love cash deals, whether they are yellow, brown, white, black, or purple. (Well, I can't honestly say that about purple, since I haven't met any purple contractors.) Guess what? Their clients often love cash deals too, again whether they are yellow, brown, white, black, or purple. (Well, I can't honestly say that about purple, since I haven't met any purple clients.)

I recently had a tree cut down. It was all above board. I will admit however that I paid for the stump removal under the table. I paid no tax, and it was the Caucasian red-blooded Canadian that offered that deal to me.

All this hand waving... we're talking about real statistics, and real crime. There's large numbers of actual Asian businesses evading tax, right out in the open. That sushi restaurant is just one of many. And that was millions of dollars.

BTW, I can't even use my credit or debit card here anymore because they keep getting cancelled as they get skimmed at businesses. And it's happening to other people I know too. It's out-of-control. And I know the businesses I am visiting where this is happening, and they are run by Asians and other visible minorities.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I understand you like to substitute the word 'race' with the word 'culture' so you don't appear racist.

According to you, the Asian 'culture' is dirty and disgusting. They are lying tax cheats who have bad eyesight, can't drive, don't bother to learn English, and don't follow the law.

You tell me...

[Click170]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Let's just say I prefer living in the Canada of 2010 than I did the Canada of the awesome 80s.

To be Canadian, at least in a big city, means we're not stuck in the mono-culture of places like big-city China... or small town Canada for that matter.

You seem to be missing the point of the discussion. We're not saying that all other cultures should get out of our country. I can't recall a single post that tries to say that, can you please point one out?

What we ARE saying, is that when one subculture becomes the main dominant culture in the span of just a couple years, there is something wrong with THAT. Not THEM the immigrants, the situation itself and the causes of it.

They (Asians) should certainly be allowed to come join our country, but on the scale that they have been doing so recently is quite frankly absurd. As has been pointed out, they outnumber immigrants from all the other countries combined. This is simply not fair, for us Canadians, for potential immigrants abroad, and for other Asians who may want to move here with contributory skill sets but who are left behind by our lax immigration system for someone who has more money.

Canada is a unique place, we've gotten to be the country that we are (I mean that in the positive way, not negative) because we allow immigration from a plethora of nations. Change is good.
Rapid change that unseats the pre-existing population and places another subculture as the dominant one is not fair, and is not good.
Case in point. During the United States of Americas birth, it involved 'buying' Manhattan from the native people for an insulting exchange of 24$. This IMO is very similar to what is happening now; Foreigners came to an area and ousted the natives. I think we can all agree that the natives were taken advantage of, being told that 24$ was a good deal for Manhattan. Would you disagree?

Now, no it's not the same thing as whats happening now-a-days, but the similarities are undeniable. One population wants to move into an area with complete disregard for the cultures that already exist there, instead imposing their own.



Why is it that the people who are trying to say that we're racist are the ones who tend to overgeneralize more? Is it because your attention span isn't long enough to allow you to read the content of our posts? It would be nice if you could refute our arguments with arguments of your own instead of over-generalizations and unfounded claims of racism.
Also, why is it that people on your side of the argument all too often conflate 'hating a mannerism of someone who happens to be Asian' with 'hating someone who is Asian because they are Asian'? These are not the same thing. I submit that perhaps this is a symptom of your inability to grasp the nuances and concepts being discussed here. Prove me wrong.


As for the people that are getting upset at how immigrants move to this country and then take advantage of our health care system, I'm of the opinion that it's just something you have to get over if your going to continue to allow immigrants to move to this country. And I don't think its an acceptable reaction to charge them thousands of dollars to move here to subsidize a medical system they may or may not utilize, nor do I think its acceptable to say No to all immigrants wishing to move to this country because they haven't been paying into our system. If your going to have immigrants coming to this country, they have every right to use our (and now subsequently their) health care system as well.

That being said, if there are actually cases of people living abroad and then coming home solely for the purpose of receiving medical treatment, I consider that to be a form of fraud. You are expected to be paying the taxes that the rest of us do if your going to be a citizen of this country and expect to use our medical system.
This is an unreasonable expectation of immigrants, but for people who knowingly engage in this act, they should lose their citizenship or be told to pay for their health care out of pocket. Though my position is amendable if someone presents better solutions.

[Click170]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Athens: you guys have identified the problem, but what should be done? I'm sorry if you've spelled this out and I've missed this.

I thought this had already been spelled out in fairly clear English, but in case hasn't, or in case you missed it;

I think the solution to Canada's problem is to change immigrations procedures. You should be able to at _least_ read our language when you get here, so you can find your way around. You should be aware of and attentive to our driving laws. Bring the parts of your culture with you that don't clash too harshly with our own. And I'm talking about not killing your daughter when she does something you disapprove of, I'm not talking about leaving your traditions and holidays behind because we have our own ideas of holidays.

No, I'm not shitting you. In Surrey BC, some East Indian guy killed his daughter because she did something he disapproved of (seeking sources to cite) and then tried to pass it off as "Oh well it's acceptable to do that where I'm from". This is not ok. It's also not the norm, I'd say a lot of immigrants coming to Canada understand that this is not OK, as well as why it's not OK. But it does stand out as one of the harshest real-world examples available.


So, to summarize, what do we do to fix it?
Keep allowing immigrants in to Canada, just have half-decent immigrations laws which are observed (and not ignored).

[Click170]

Originally Posted by Athens 

...
Application to bring family members must be made in the first year of arrival and family members can't arrive until the 5 year probational period is completed at which time the person bringing the family over is equally responsible for any crimes committed by any members of his family.

...

Ideally I would prefer every immigrant to be sponsored by a Canadian family during the first 2 years which includes mandatory education on western culture and values and to live in a home of a Canadian family before being going out on there own.

This, I have to object to. There are already cases in BC of people abusing the sponsorship system. Not too long ago I remember reading an article in which someone sponsored their wife to come over, and then the wife ditched him once she got here, leaving the husband still financially responsible for her because he sponsored her.
The sponsorship system needs a little rethinking as well IMO.