[Peter]

I live in a (fairly large) 2 bedroom + study flat, theres myself and my girlfriend.
Do you think its cruel to have a cat and keep it indoors all the time? We'd LOVE a cat, but don't want to be cruel. The flat is plenty big enough for two litter trays, and our flat is covered with plants and such. We also have lots of light in all rooms.
What do you think? cruel? we're looking at kittens btw.

[Dakar V]

I think there was a big blow-up about this question a few years back. Don't have the time to track down the thread at the moment, however.

[MacTheRiverRat]

I have to fight with my cat to use my new macbook! Female cats seem to do better inside. IMHO

[Chuckit]

No. Some breeds (Persians, for example) aren't even meant to roam outside.

[ghporter]

My cats live a long time. A LONG time. And that's because they don't go outside and get exposed to feral cats, unfriendly dogs, idiots that hate cats, and various vermin and pests. It's not cruel at all; it's much safer for them.

Get a cat tree and any cats you get (especially as kittens) will have lots of fun and not miss being outside.

[- - e r i k - -]

If you are not in Australia, then yes

Seriously though, cats can be conditioned to live both inside and outside. I used to be a huge advocate for outdoor cats (we had two and they lived long full lives to over 20). But in certain situations where that is impossible (not just inconvenient), like where you would want to protect wildlife, cats can adapt to a mostly indoor lifestyle without it being "cruel".

[- - e r i k - -]

If you do get a cat, consider getting two. They will keep each other company and be much be much more harmonious for it.

[turtle777]

Pfff, get a turtle and get rid of the moral dilemma

-t

[sek929]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

If you do get a cat, consider getting two. They will keep each other company and be much be much more harmonious for it.

Truth right here.

Really the only correct way to own a cat is to own two of them. In my experience it makes both cats more sociable and they tend to exercise each other out...

But really a cat indoors isn't cruel. If he/she has got some nooks and crannies and a enough room to scamper now and again it'll be fine.

[ort888]

My cats don't seem to complain. Some would say it's cruel to let them go outside.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Truth right here.

Really the only correct way to own a cat is to own two of them. In my experience it makes both cats more sociable and they tend to exercise each other out...

But really a cat indoors isn't cruel. If he/she has got some nooks and crannies and a enough room to scamper now and again it'll be fine.

I got two cats for the same reason (brother and sister from the same litter even), and it turns out they don't really like each other. Most of the time they avoid each other, and have 'claims' to their own nooks and crannies. It's actually quite comical.

OT: They do not have front claws (I had them front de-clawed when I got them as kittens - I regret it now but it is what it is), so they absolutely do not go outside - it would be even more dangerous for them given that they are missing one of their primary defense mechanisms. We occasionally take them on the patio with us, and they are usually tentative and want to go back inside after a while.

They are 12 now, and are happy and well-adjusted as indoor cats. Well, except for getting along with each other, that is; they get along with people great!

[Eriamjh]

Cruel is a strong word. How about "less than ideal environment"?

Let 'em out in the snow and see if they want back in. Then you can decide how "cruel" it is.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

Let 'em out in the snow and see if they want back in. Then you can decide how "cruel" it is.

Or during a nice strong rainfall

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

If you do get a cat, consider getting two. They will keep each other company and be much be much more harmonious for it.

We had two cats that couldn't stand each other. The male would enter the room and the female would book. He never fought with her or provoked her in any way. Both were spayed/neutered.

The female would rarely come down from the counters and tables, and would always be high up off the ground. The male almost never left the ground.

The times we let them out they begged to get back in.

[Dakar V]

The only way I'd really classify it as cruel is if the cat was raised and lived outdoors for first few years of its life.

[MacTheRiverRat]

We have a stray outdoor cat that's now a indoor cat. She didn't like anyone getting close to her with ones feet and didn't like anyone petting her except for her head when she was outdoors. While outside her first couple of years she would come and go like she was just visiting. She got hurt a couple of times. The last time we said thats it she's coming inside for protection . She has turned into one of the best & spoiled cats we have ever had.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

The only way I'd really classify it as cruel is if the cat was raised and lived outdoors for first few years of its life.

Originally Posted by MacTheRiverRat 

We have a stray outdoor cat that's now a indoor cat. She didn't like anyone getting close to her with ones feet and didn't like anyone petting her except for her head when she was outdoors. While outside her first couple of years she would come and go like she was just visiting. She got hurt a couple of times. The last time we said thats it she's coming inside for protection . She has turned into one of the best & spoiled cats we have ever had.

Cruel!1!1!

[Dakar V]

I forgot to add the part, "And the cat doesn't adjust to it well."

[Dakar V]

Odd, the 3 people who voted yes haven't felt compelled to enlighten us as to why.

[MacTheRiverRat]

Well our indoor once outsdie cat knows she has a good life. She doesn't try to run out side. She knows she got it made. She does sit by the front door and watch our outside cat. They sniff each others nose sometimes when we open the door and our indoor cat turns around walk inside like she wants nothing to do with the outside cat. The outside turns and goes about her business.

[Tomchu]

My girlfriend and I recently acquired a kitteh. This one was a lost cat that we found on the SE Marine Drive/Marine Way junction in Vancouver. We tracked the owners down through a tattoo in her ear, and figured out a number of interesting details --

- She'd been missing for at least 3 weeks
- She had walked to the area from New Westminster (that's like 7.5 km if you go directly along the road)
- She's "feral", according to the gum-chewing hick owner
- She keeps "running away" from them

The Humane Society decided that because these owners violated their adoption contract (didn't report her missing), that they would take the cat away from them. And now my girlfriend and I foster the "feral" kitty.

Sophie is the smartest, cutest little cat. She goes on walks with us (without a leash), sometimes takes me for a walk to show me where she hangs out, etc. etc. She loves going outside, and asks multiple times a day to be let out, but *always* comes back to where she knows she's safe.

I think she'd be miserable if she was forced to be kept in. We had a litter box for a long time, but she used it maybe once a week -- so she clearly has kept some of her outside-cat habits. She's not feral or wild, and very polite and quiet around the house, but she definitely has a need to be outside and to explore.

I don't think there's a right answer to the question. Some cats have a need to go outside, and some cats are perfectly content sitting at home all day.

Here's Sophsters:

[Laminar]

Beautiful pictures.

[ThinkInsane]

I have a ridiculously huge Maine Coon (34 pounds and not even a little bit fat) that came to me second hand. he was a "country cat" and had full outside privileges. His previous owner was unable to keep him because of her child's allergies. I've had him for almost a year, but since I live downtown letting him out is not an option and he doesn't seem to mind a bit. He's perfectly content to stuff himself into his shoe box (boot box actually- he found it in the closet and has stuffed his big butt into to sleep ever since, even though he doesn't fit) and never tries to make a break for it. He loves to lounge on the window sills and watch traffic go by, and seems content to do so. It seems far less cruel to keep him inside where he won't get mashed by a car or lit on fire by some juvie crackhead. Anyone that thinks it's cruel to keep him inside should keep in mind that if I hadn't agreed to take him, he was going to an animal shelter, and not one of the nice no-kill ones either.

This is the best picture I could find to show the scale of the critter


And stuffed in his shoe box


Sorry about the crappy cell phone pics

[real]

Originally Posted by MacTheRiverRat 

I have to fight with my cat to use my new macbook! Female cats seem to do better inside. IMHO

I agree

[Peter]

this thread is a world of cuteness.

[olePigeon]

On average, indoor cats can live 15 to 20+ years. Indoor/outdoor cats live an average of about 5 years. Exclusively outdoor cats live about 18 months on average.

So it really depends on how long you want your cat and are prepared to accept the inevitable. The above figures are only averages. All my cats were indoor/outdoor. However, one year we had to put down 3 of our 4 cats because they had all contracted feline AIDS. Our 4th cat was poisoned by our neighbor (he had animal poison in his yard) and died that afternoon. They were 8, 18, and 9 years old. My current cat is doing OK, but was recently diagnosed schizophrenic. He never really went outside until we moved and had a large yard. He romped around the yard but never strayed far. He's currently 13.

[sek929]

Out of my two outdoor cats one lived to the ripe old age of 14, he was even born outside on a farm.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Out of my two outdoor cats one lived to the ripe old age of 14, he was even born outside on a farm.

They can live decently long. It's just an average. One of my outdoor cats lived to 18.

[Jawbone54]

Nice pics, Tomchu!

I voted no. I don't personally own a cat myself (wife is highly allergic), but my cousin has kept his cat indoors all its life. It's very friendly (for a cat), and seems to be perfectly content. It's also 15.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

My current cat is doing OK, but was recently diagnosed schizophrenic.

How does one go about diagnosing a cat schizophrenic?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

My current cat is doing OK, but was recently diagnosed schizophrenic.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

How does one go about diagnosing a cat schizophrenic?

Yeah, isn't schizophrenia pretty much standard issue with cats? They see and hear "things" that we don't, they go from completely inert to enormously fast speeds instantaneously and without noticeable provocation, and their moods shift from snuggly to fierce to sleeping in the blink of an eye. That sounds pretty schizophrenic to me...

[MacTheRiverRat]

I wonder if Apple will start calling their OS different cat names after they run out of the current batch. I can see now. Mac OS 18 code name Sphynx, Mac OS 19 - code name Persian
http://tinyurl.com/64mp33

Hmmm!

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

We had two cats that couldn't stand each other. The male would enter the room and the female would book. He never fought with her or provoked her in any way. Both were spayed/neutered.

Heh - that pretty much describes the situation with my cats. They do fight a little though - it never amounts to much. It's like they're half playing/chasing and half actually fighting. A couple of snips, and then they'll walk away and one or the other will whine a bit. Both are spayed/neutered and they are brother/sister from the same litter. Funny how that works...

[Cold Warrior]

I had an outdoor cat who lived to 21 some many years ago. He and I shared the same month and year of birth.

[- - e r i k - -]

How much nicer are cat threads now that calverson is banned?

[Railroader]

Indeed.

[mattyb]

I only just voted yes - before reading the comments.

I've never brought up a cat that I purposely kept indoors, so I guess that my experience is limited. Our cats have always had a large garden and lived in a countryside type environment - not quite 'in-the-middle-of-nowhere' but not the suburbs either. They've also been around a dog during their lives. I guess that living in a built up environment like London or New York changes things considerably.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

How does one go about diagnosing a cat schizophrenic?

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Yeah, isn't schizophrenia pretty much standard issue with cats? They see and hear "things" that we don't, they go from completely inert to enormously fast speeds instantaneously and without noticeable provocation, and their moods shift from snuggly to fierce to sleeping in the blink of an eye. That sounds pretty schizophrenic to me...

It's actually more common than you think. He just flips out. Goes nuts. Starts biting the carpet frantically, or what ever is near him. His little head starts twitching pretty violently. At first we thought he might be having seizures, but when you go up to him to try and comfort, he just bolts and runs. Vet diagnosed him because he started to twig out at the office. They do have medicine for it, but it's really expensive. Can't afford it. Other than that he's really healthy.

He's deathly afraid of open hands, though we think we know where that came from. When he was a kitten he ran outside. We looked all day and couldn't find him. Just by chance my brother was walking to the grocery store and saw an animal control officer trying to grab a little orange and white striped kitten. Yep, it was Mr. Spuds. We showed the officer the ownership papers and she let us take him back home. Little guy was pretty traumatized. Ever since, if you put out an open hand in front of him, he'll puff up, growl, then bite your hand just between the thumb and the pointer finger (thankfully, not very hard.)

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

He just flips out. Goes nuts. Starts biting the carpet frantically, or what ever is near him. His little head starts twitching pretty violently. At first we thought he might be having seizures, but when you go up to him to try and comfort, he just bolts and runs. Vet diagnosed him because he started to twig out at the office. They do have medicine for it, but it's really expensive. Can't afford it. Other than that he's really healthy.

Yeah, that's way beyond the spookiness of "normal" cats. Bummer for the little guy. Actually epilepsy is fairly easy and not too expensive to treat in both cats and dogs, but antipsychotic meds are expensive no matter who they're for.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Vet diagnosed him because he started to twig out at the office. They do have medicine for it, but it's really expensive. Can't afford it.

I used to have a dog that would lick his paws obsessively. I mean to the point they would bleed. I tried everything, new toys, more exercise, got another dog to keep him company, put apple bitter on his paws, but nothing worked. I took him to the vet and he said the only thing he could really do is put him on prozac. I enquired as to the price of such a treatment. He told me a $120 a month. The hell you say. So I asked "is it the same prozac people take?". It was indeed. "And hypothetically speaking what would the dosage be and how many times a day?". O rly? So I called my doctor and said "I'm feeling pretty depressed and plan on being so for quite sometime. Can I have a script for prozac? No no, not that dosage, I think this one will work better. Yeah, that one twice a day. Thanks doc, I'm feeling less depressed already!". Off to the pharmacy I went and a $5 copay later my doggy is well on his way to being less neurotic.

[packet of krisps]

Brilliant.

[brassplayersrock²]

Truly

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Off to the pharmacy I went and a $5 copay later my doggy is well on his way to being less neurotic.

I know that your example is serious, but it reminded me of this.

[DeathToWindows]

My current cat, Totoro, is an indoor cat - I live in an apartment, and his previous owners had declawed him...

[shifuimam]

It depends on the cat.

I grew up with four cats. Two were terrified of the outdoors, one had been a stray and loved being outside, and the other grew to love the outdoors as she got older. If they want to go out, you shouldn't keep them in - if you live in an apartment complex, you could always try a harness and leash to keep them from going far, but cats aren't dumb and usually survive just fine roaming around outside.

The thing about declawing meaning indoors-only is a total myth and a load of crap. All our cats have always been declawed, and the oldest (the stray) still beat the crap out of neighborhood cats and routinely caught, killed, and ate rodents in the backyard and the woods behind our house.

And I agree with others who say to get two cats. I adopted a kitten so that my first cat, Sumi, would have a playmate. She gets more exercise and generally seems happier. If you can, adopt cats together - some cats don't adapt well to another feline joining the family later on.

I keep my two cats indoors all the time, although I've let Sumi out under supervision in the spring (I adopted my second cat, Ninja, after it started getting cold out). They have plenty of entertainment indoors.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

if you live in an apartment complex, you could always try a harness and leash to keep them from going far

Dangle them out the window.


Artists impression.

[Demonhood]

that's the world's most angry windsock.

[Cipher13]

I don't know about cruelty, but if you've got a cat in Australia, you really should keep it indoors. Free-roaming cats should be impounded in my opinion. The ecological damage they cause is monstrous.

I don't imagine the situation is much different in other parts of the world.

[shifuimam]

Domestic house cats don't generally go outside and run amok for miles, the way that a dog would. Our cats knew to stay in the yard, so it wasn't really an issue. We'd yell at them if they wandered into neighbors' yards, and we didn't leave them out when we were gone.

I don't think that a cat outside is going to cause that much "ecological damage". If anything, they'll help by killing off rodents that damage property and procreate like crazy, like voles and rabbits.

[ghporter]

One domestic cat outside in a neighborhood won't cause noticeable ecological damage. But that's not how it happens, especially in the U.S. Literally thousands of homeless, domestic cats roam every city in the U.S., and together they cause amazing amounts of damage, along with tens of thousands of new, feral kittens every year. Cat owners need to be responsible for their cats or stick to stuffed animals. This is true for dogs and dog owners as well. Keep 'em inside (or in your yard in the case of dogs) and get 'em neutered/spayed (which limits their desire to roam as well) and they'll live a much longer, much healthier and much happier life.