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Anyone who says 'I love God' and hates his brother, is a liar, since whoever does not love the brother whom he can see cannot love God whom he has not seen.
Matthew 15 15-18
Reproving Another Who Sins
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Fidel had THREE Popes talk to him. Don't know if it took. Could be he called a priest and made his peace with Jesus before he died.
How a Catholic with class and human decency reacts to the death of another human being.
Originally Posted by Pope Francis
On receiving the sad news of the death of your dear brother, His Excellency Mister Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz, former president of the State Council and of the Government of the Republic of Cuba, I express my sentiments of sorrow to Your Excellency and other family members of the deceased dignitary, as well as to the people of this beloved nation. At the same time, I offer prayers to the Lord for his rest and I entrust the whole Cuban people to the maternal intercession of our Lady of the Charity of El Cobre, patroness of that country.
Francisco, PP.
Maybe a conversation with a Pope or two might do you some good as well.
Cubans are celebrating for those that have the freedom to. He condemned 10's of thousands (or more) to a life of suffering or death. Only evil people would feel sorrow for his death. I dont know about Chongo, but castro isnt my brother.
If you write that “you pity the worms for having to eat his corpse”, then yeah, that's not a sentiment that comes from a happy or a neutral place. I don't think it's healthy to celebrate someone's death no matter what that person has done, it just makes you smaller.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
If you write that “you pity the worms for having to eat his corpse”, then yeah, that's not a sentiment that comes from a happy or a neutral place. I don't think it's healthy to celebrate someone's death no matter what that person has done, it just makes you smaller.
By that logic, it was wrong to celebrate Hitler's death. To many in the Cuban exile community, Castro was worse than Hitler.
By that logic, it was wrong to celebrate Hitler's death. To many in the Cuban exile community, Castro was worse than Hitler.
Yeah, I don't think it would have been virtuous to celebrate Hitler's death in 1945. Hitler losing power is another thing, I'd have celebrated that, but I would have preferred that he would have had to face trial and then rot in jail until his natural death. In any case, the discussion is about Castro, and surely he wasn't worse than Hitler, he didn't have to be worse than Hitler to be responsible for his share of crimes. I get the emotion that he wasn't held responsible for his crimes — and never will be, but as soon as he died, it became all moot. From an atheist's point of view, life stops with death, and nothing you do now will have an effect on this person's well being. If you are a Catholic, then you believe that ultimately he'll be judged by God. And that, if he has received his last sacraments, God will have forgiven his sins.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
How a Catholic with class and human decency reacts to the death of another human being.
Maybe a conversation with a Pope or two might do you some good as well.
I would remind His Holiness of that Castro "nationalized" the Catholic schools and imprisonded priests and Bishops.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
From an atheist's point of view, life stops with death, and nothing you do now will have an effect on this person's well being. If you are a Catholic, then you believe that ultimately he'll be judged by God. And that, if he has received his last sacraments, God will have forgiven his sins.
As I said
Originally Posted by Chongo
Fidel had THREE Popes talk to him. Don't know if it took. Could be he called a priest and made his peace with Jesus before he died.
We don't know if Judas made his peace as he died. For all we know he could have. He same goes for Stalin. We dont't know if he called a priest and was given the anointing of of the sick. They also could have died in "final impenitence" AKA the unpardonable sin.
All I can do is pray that Fidel sought the anointing of the sick.
The Pope would agree with you and quote that section of scripture where Jesus advocates loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you.
I will light a candle for Fidel, and addd his name to the annual register for prayers of the deceased
Yes, Jesus has some tough sayings for those, who after being loved and prayed for, do not heed his words.
Matthew
7:15-27 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
8:11-12 “I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”
10:14-16 “And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the Day of Judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.”
10:33-38 “… whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
If you write that “you pity the worms for having to eat his corpse”, then yeah, that's not a sentiment that comes from a happy or a neutral place. I don't think it's healthy to celebrate someone's death no matter what that person has done,
Showing disrespect to someone who deserves it, in this case a genocidal ruler, doesn't mean you can't have forgiven him at the same time. Most who didnt experience his cruelty dont hate him or care that much. For those who's family members died or were tortured at his hand they are justified in being happy over his death even it comes from an unhappy place; although, if his death makes people genuinely happy, who's to argue with that?. He did live to be 90, so it's not like justice was served. The way many Cubans are celebrating may not be about the death specifically, but to salt the wound of his supporters, or maybe to celebrate hope for a new age.
it just makes you smaller.
So far I haven't noticed anybody shrinking over this yet.
Hitler losing power is another thing, I'd have celebrated that, but I would have preferred that he would have had to face trial and then rot in jail until his natural death.
Why is jailing of the perpetrator superior to his death? You save your society's resources while ensuring he'll never act up again.
In any case, the discussion is about Castro, ..... I get the emotion that he wasn't held responsible for his crimes — and never will be, but as soon as he died, it became all moot. From an atheist's point of view, life stops with death,
It's not moot if Castro still held significant influence over Cuba's oppression, and his death ends up weakening the oppression.
and nothing you do now will have an effect on this person's well being.
I dont understand this, Castro is dead, why would anyone be concerned with his well being?
If you are a Catholic, then you believe that ultimately he'll be judged by God. And that, if he has received his last sacraments, God will have forgiven his sins.
I guess I cant speak for Catholic, but for most Christians (and probably most religious people around the world), sins like this arent that easily forgiven. But if God forgives him then it would be right by Christians, cause who are we to argue (according to Christians). As far as judging goes, we are allowed to judge people by their fruits - from the bible,
"every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. .... Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. "
...and considering what we have to go by, Castro was an evil person. This is one of those things that I would think would be common sense around the world, yet since it's not, it reaffirms my belief that we arent' ready for a world without religion, to point out things to us that should be purely obvious. I mean whats with all these leaders expressing sorrow? What is the purpose of this other to show respect for the horrible things Castro has done in his life?
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Nov 28, 2016, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Chongo
I will light a candle for Fidel, and addd his name to the annual register for prayers of the deceased
Yes, Jesus has some tough sayings for those, who after being loved and prayed for, do not heed his words.
Yes, and all of this seems like deflecting the fact that you were expressing hatred for your neighbor.
Yes, and all of this seems like deflecting the fact that you were expressing hatred for your neighbor.
Sorry to disappoint you, saying that Fidel is wormfood and feeling sorry for the worms in not expressing hatred for Castro. You can say it is all you want. Had I said "Fidel es muerto y ahora comida de gusano, quemado en enfierno pinche cabrona" that would have been expressing hatred.
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Nov 28, 2016, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Chongo
Sorry to disappoint you, saying that Fidel is wormfood and feeling sorry for the worms in not expressing hatred for Castro. You can say it is all you want. Had I said "Fidel es muerto y ahora comida de gusano, quemado en enfierno pinche cabrona" that would have been expressing hatred.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
If you write that “you pity the worms for having to eat his corpse”, then yeah, that's not a sentiment that comes from a happy or a neutral place
By all means, continue to nitpick and argue semantics, the Pharisees were always great at that.
As far as judging goes, we are allowed to judge people by their fruits - from the bible, "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. .... Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. "
How true, we can judge people by their 'fruits.' And it would seem Pope Francis bears much sweeter fruit than Chongo and yourself.
How true, we can judge people by their 'fruits.' And it would seem Pope Francis bears much sweeter fruit than Chongo and yourself.
That is probably true... I bear no sweet fruit for Castro and his supporters. I bear nothing for him at all since I wasn't affected by him, I simply recognize he was an evil person plain & simple. As for the pope, although his words arent very empathetic to the impoverished folk of Cuba, his words dont mean as much as his actions. We can judge the pope based on any actions he has done throughout his life which positively affected the Cuban people.
Personally, I haven't been able to find an argument in favor of respect for the dead. I wouldn't disrespect the dead to their families (assuming they were decent people) but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it. Speaking as an agnostic.
Fidel was asshole, those who failed to remove him hypocrites, and I hope the absence of his shadow looming over Cuba, in conjunction with renewed relations, improves the lives of the people who live there.
There aren't horrible enough people in the world that it is improved by their absence?
I am one of those that looks at the UK as it is and believes that it is much diminished thanks to the legacy of Margaret Thatcher. I can't speak to her personally, but I believe many of the policies she put into place could be classified as evil.
I did not celebrate when she died. I thought those that did were terribly misguided. While I also felt sickened at her glorification by many, I felt the celebrations of her death were worse.
It diminished the humanity of the revellers more than it did her legacy.
I find it sad that you want to impose your religious beliefs on our country but you refuse to impose them on yourself in your behaviour on this board.
Propose, not impose.
I will include you in my prayers this Sunday. I light a candle for NNer's each Sunday before St Joeseph's statue. Today starts the 54 day novena for POTUS-elect Trump. I will include the NN'ers as well. https://www.novenaforournation.com
Right now, I'm all touchy-feely, so I'm going with life imprisonment being functionally equivalent to death in terms of absence.
Right, but that won't happen for the terrible who have power. I bet even in his weakened state Castro exerted more power than he will dead. Since imprisonment wasn't going to ever happen...
Edit: Isn't this the concept of war on an individual scale?
Showing disrespect to someone who deserves it, in this case a genocidal ruler, doesn't mean you can't have forgiven him at the same time. Most who didnt experience his cruelty dont hate him or care that much.
You assume that Castro's crimes were singular, and I don't think they were. Similar things happened in the various dictatorships in South America that popped up (e. g. the Pinochet regime in Chile), but you can also look to various European countries like Spain and Eastern Germany. From a human perspective I understand how people that were directly affected can see Castro differently, but I think you are exaggerating the magnitude of his crimes. Castro did not commit genocide, and within the pantheon of despots of the 20th century, I don't think he's in any way special. I don't think it's necessary to vilify Castro to make yourself feel better, and to try and see everything just in terms of black and white. Many South Africans will have a different overall opinion on Castro because of his role in ending Apartheid (while the Western countries supported the racist regime for years on end). That is not meant to diminish his crimes, but it is something that should be included to get an accurate picture of who Fidel Castro was.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra
Why is jailing of the perpetrator superior to his death? You save your society's resources while ensuring he'll never act up again.
Because it is the right and moral thing to do whereas executing people, especially without a trial, is not.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra
I dont understand this, Castro is dead, why would anyone be concerned with his well being?
You misunderstand: it's not Castro's well-being I'm talking about, it's yours. You're indulging into hatred, and no good can come of it.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra
I guess I cant speak for Catholic, but for most Christians (and probably most religious people around the world), sins like this arent that easily forgiven.
I don't want to get lost in theological discussions about the differences of how various flavors of Christianity view things. But for Catholics (and Chongo is one, which is why I brought it up) the thing is clear. Of course, we can now quibble whether the Catholic Church's catechesis is wrong, and I don't know whether your flavor of Christianity has an official opinion on this — and if it does, what it is.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra
This is one of those things that I would think would be common sense around the world, yet since it's not, it reaffirms my belief that we arent' ready for a world without religion, to point out things to us that should be purely obvious. I mean whats with all these leaders expressing sorrow? What is the purpose of this other to show respect for the horrible things Castro has done in his life?
Huh? What does any of that have to do with a world without religion? The Pope just like many other world leaders have expressed their condolences. There is no split between religious people and Christians here, as I wrote above, both, from a Catholic's and an atheist's point of view you shouldn't indulge in hatred and wish ill on the dead. Certainly the sentiment you express here are not an example of moral superiority due to your Christian beliefs.
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Last edited by OreoCookie; Nov 28, 2016 at 11:15 PM.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I hope I can get back to Cuba before I die, just so I can take a huge piss on his grave.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Yes, and all of this seems like deflecting the fact that you were expressing hatred for your neighbor.
What hatred? You're projecting.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Where it gets weird is when people claim someone's death makes them happy. Likewise with wishing death upon a live person.
I think that closely mirrors my feelings on the subject.
Originally Posted by Paco500
I am one of those that looks at the UK as it is and believes that it is much diminished thanks to the legacy of Margaret Thatcher. I can't speak to her personally, but I believe many of the policies she put into place could be classified as evil.
I did not celebrate when she died. I thought those that did were terribly misguided. While I also felt sickened at her glorification by many, I felt the celebrations of her death were worse.
It diminished the humanity of the revellers more than it did her legacy.
Aptly put.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
There aren't horrible enough people in the world that it is improved by their absence?
That's a separate issue: talking about politics specifically, you don't remove the influence of horrible people by wishing death upon them (or by acting on that wish). The way you act in response to evil not just tells something about you and your own morals. One of the lasting legacies of WW2, proving superiority of American morals to the world, was that the leadership of Germany wasn't just executed (as they now would), but tried. They had defense lawyers, and because not all of them were sentenced to death, it wasn't a kangaroo court either. I can tell you for a fact that this has had a lasting impression on German post-war society, one that started a strong friendship between what could have easily been just an occupation by a foreign army.
Wishing death and suffering upon people usually grows out of helplessness and an unsatisfied sense of justice — at least “they'll stick it to him in the afterlife”. That is instead of accepting that unjust things sometimes happen in the world and trying to channel your energy to improve the here and now, you waste it on the past. If you think Castro's absence is a boon to the Cuban people, be happy for them. Help them that there is a democratic transition after his brother dies as well.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I was repeated what someone else said. Try and keep up.
Ok, I'll try, now WTF were you trying to say? You "was repeated"?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Let me put it this way: Instead of natural causes, he was assassinated. Still celebrating the end of his reign?
As an added point, my memory might be faulty, but I wasn't particularly celebratory about Bin Laden getting whacked, though I was glad he was no longer effective.
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Nov 29, 2016, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Ok, I'll try, now WTF were you trying to say? You "was repeated"?
Thanks for catching that! "Repeating". Context should have been enough to figure out what I was trying to say, unless you were intentionally trying to find something to pick at, but you wouldn't do that.
Thanks for catching that! "Repeating". Context should have been enough to figure out what I was trying to say, unless you were intentionally trying to find something to pick at, but you wouldn't do that.
You're welcome! Of course I wouldn't, it's just really hard to sort out what you're saying when you're sputtering in the middle of a dogpile.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Let me put it this way: Instead of natural causes, he was assassinated. Still celebrating the end of his reign?
Yes. What is the measure of one tyrant's life to the immeasurable thousands who suffered misery and death for simply having the audacity of a free thought?
Human life itself should not be taken for granted. As Castro did, he lost his claim to it in the same manner he cast upon the Cuban people. My only wish is that someone had got to him sooner.
As an added point, my memory might be faulty, but I wasn't particularly celebratory about Bin Laden getting whacked, though I was glad he was no longer effective.
Ok. I still think it's a bit of rationalization seeing as the two are linked, but I'll resist the urge to create a tortured metaphor.
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