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Israeli forces killed Egypt-troops...
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IT�S A DECELRATION OF WAR THE BLOOD THIRSTY J0000SS ARE AT IT AGAIN. FIGHT! FIGHT!
Before going on I would like to say its a sad incident and I really hope it does not affect the peace that has lasted between Egypt and Israel, and may the families have peace in their hearts about this soon.
..just shows Israel's indiscriminate killing-policy.
That was such a lame call Tal its not even funny. Your on the line in a place terrorist always cross you see suspicious people with (apparently) no vehicles no lights no nothing of an identification walking around... its so hard to imagine how you could ever make a mistake because you forget that unlike you and other Muslims, J000S don�t have night vision built into their kafias  
Now if your done reaching and twisting mistakes into intentional acts of war and violence before the facts are known because the evil J000S army is the evilest entity on this earth and hates every Arab...
You know Tal you want to believe they are deliberately doing everything to hurt Arabs and it�s building a barrier in your heart and mind and it�s becoming very evident in your posts. Be objective man. Wait for the results before passing judgment.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
You know Tal you want to believe they are deliberately doing everything to hurt Arabs and it�s building a barrier in your heart and mind ...
The barrier is not built in my heart or my mind, but on the ground in the middle of the westbank.
Taliesin
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Posting Junkie
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No, it's pretty much all in your head.
You have to blame somebody for your people's problems. You can either blame your people - or you can believe they were influenced by others.
See, Americans can play that game, too. We only do stuff because others create the environment that requires our presence.
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I SURELY hope you aren't using this as "proof" of the jooooooooz eviliness. 
I remember my ex GFs dad telling me how many of their own shot their own on mistake out of fear and paranoia back in the NAM days.
Humans err.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
The barrier is not built in my heart or my mind, but on the ground in the middle of the westbank.
Taliesin
and it wouldn't be there if the idiots didn't continue exploding their own children in public.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
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Originally posted by MacNStein:
and it wouldn't be there if the idiots didn't continue exploding their own children in public.
Err.... without the "idiots" part.
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You reap what you sow.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally posted by deomacius:
Err.... without the "idiots" part.
I know. I'm much more inflammatory. 
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
The barrier is not built in my heart or my mind, but on the ground in the middle of the westbank.
Taliesin
Well there is no way your going to over come this with that kind of thinking. Look what happens when and IDF soldier intentionally or unintentionally makes a mistake? Its posted here and what do we do? We post how wrong it was what should be done we look into weather he is being tried for his crimes what his just sentence should be etc... And here you are just being inflammatory. The Muslims kill the Jewish babies and mothers and brothers and fathers and sisters and grandparents and everyone else only out of vengeance they are not to blame its all Israelis fault blame the j000z th3y ar3 t3h ev1lllll!!!11!!
Look even if you refuse to believe you have this barrier you have to realize that your kind of thinking would only be worsening the matter... at least LBK and Logic and them realize the value of human lives on both sides and can see past the fact of weather its Arab or Jew or anyone and to the fact that people are suffering and people not races are to blame.
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Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
That's a first.
No, it isn't.
Israel has apologized and compensated families in the past, whereas Israel's opponents have declared those who die while killing as many Israelis as possible are martyrs.
Course, you knew that didn't you.
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If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.
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Bismillah Hir Rehman Nir Rahim
Indeed.
The only reason this murder made the press is because those killed had someone that represented them and people in the west sometimes listen to.
This is truly not the first time the Israeli occupiers don't verify who they are shooting at and it will not be the last. There is only three ways of making sure you do not get fired at by tanks and soldiers in Gaza and in Cis'Jordan if you are a non-Jewish Arab. 1) Giving up your way of life and assimilate. 2) Being dead. 3) Having reporters in your vicinity.
That is unfortunately the only way of keeping safe in that part of Arabia.
May God help our Brothers in this struggle.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
No, it's pretty much all in your head.
You have to blame somebody for your people's problems. You can either blame your people - or you can believe they were influenced by others.
See, Americans can play that game, too. We only do stuff because others create the environment that requires our presence.
I see. Americans as filling.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
... rant...
Look even if you refuse to believe you have this barrier you have to realize that your kind of thinking would only be worsening the matter... at least LBK and Logic and them realize the value of human lives on both sides and can see past the fact of weather its Arab or Jew or anyone and to the fact that people are suffering and people not races are to blame.
That's exactly my point of view, too. Because I see life and condition of israelis and (!) palestinians as important, I think the retaliation-operations of the palestinians as a mean to restrain the killing of palestinian civilians through the israeli army are a necessity. The retaliation-operations were saving lifes at the end of the day.
Just look what has happened after Israel built the wall and reduced by this considerably the successful retaliation-operations of the palestinians. Did it brought a reduction in the sum of killed civilians? No, it brought a rise in the number of killed civilians and destruction of infrastructure, harvests and homes as Israel's army felt no restraint anymore because it rightfully thought that the wall had considerably reduced the palestinian's ability to retaliate.
There are though religious problems I have with the way the islamistic resistance-groups are recruiting people that are ready to execute the retaliation by making suicide and bringing a bomb to explosion manually. These groups are telling palestinians that someone who makes suicide while retaliating becomes a martyr and comes automatically and instantaneaously into paradise.
That is not true, God knows:
Generally suicide is been regarded by the Quran and the islamic religion as a sin, eventhough I wouldn't go as far as to claim suicide would automatically lead to hell, it definetly doesn't lead automatically to paradise, and definetly doesn't turn someone into a martyr.
Taliesin
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But now back onto topic: What all have pretty much ignored and overlooked, because they are already normalised to such behaviour by Israel's forces, that they even don't register it anymore, is that even if these killed egyptian troops were palestinians who would try to smuggle weapons into Gaza, Israel's forces would have no right to kill them without trying to capture and emprison them. Only when those people would resist violently an emprisonment, the israeli forces would have the right to fire back!!
Taliesin
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
But now back onto topic: What all have pretty much ignored and overlooked, because they are already normalised to such behaviour by Israel's forces, that they even don't register it anymore, is that even if these killed egyptian troops were palestinians who would try to smuggle weapons into Gaza, Israel's forces would have no right to kill them without trying to capture and emprison them. Only when those people would resist violently an emprisonment, the israeli forces would have the right to fire back!!
Taliesin
Yeah but since when did the Israeli army give a damn about any sort of law or ethics?
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
That's exactly my point of view, too. Because I see life and condition of israelis and (!) palestinians as important, I think the retaliation-operations of the palestinians as a mean to restrain the killing of palestinian civilians through the israeli army are a necessity. The retaliation-operations were saving lifes at the end of the day.
Just look what has happened after Israel built the wall and reduced by this considerably the successful retaliation-operations of the palestinians. Did it brought a reduction in the sum of killed civilians? No, it brought a rise in the number of killed civilians and destruction of infrastructure, harvests and homes as Israel's army felt no restraint anymore because it rightfully thought that the wall had considerably reduced the palestinian's ability to retaliate.
There are though religious problems I have with the way the islamistic resistance-groups are recruiting people that are ready to execute the retaliation by making suicide and bringing a bomb to explosion manually. These groups are telling palestinians that someone who makes suicide while retaliating becomes a martyr and comes automatically and instantaneaously into paradise.
That is not true, God knows:
Generally suicide is been regarded by the Quran and the islamic religion as a sin, eventhough I wouldn't go as far as to claim suicide would automatically lead to hell, it definetly doesn't lead automatically to paradise, and definetly doesn't turn someone into a martyr.
Taliesin
I can understand that, I disagree but I understand. It just seems you have an awful lot of good things to say and support for people who carry out "retaliation" against my little sister my mother my brother my friends on their way to have a drink to ride the bus to see a movie you know... the criminal types... funny that. If you must retaliate do it against those responsible don�t bring anyone else into your fight.
Originally posted by Taliesin:
But now back onto topic: What all have pretty much ignored and overlooked, because they are already normalised to such behaviour by Israel's forces, that they even don't register it anymore, is that even if these killed egyptian troops were palestinians who would try to smuggle weapons into Gaza, Israel's forces would have no right to kill them without trying to capture and emprison them. Only when those people would resist violently an emprisonment, the israeli forces would have the right to fire back!!
Taliesin
No right? First off to the soldiers it looked as if they were setting up a bomb or something maybe to launch a rocket in either case it was observed as a direct threat to their lives. And you need to make up your minds about if we should be allowed to capture and imprison these guys. Because half the time you claim that legally Israel has no right to go after them like that so fine they are hunted instead but no that�s not acceptable either might as well just let them in with no problems... "What�s that you have there? 200KG of bomb material? Ok you can pass" gimmie a break its one or the other. If your lives depended on not letting these guys through you would be doing the exact same thing and you know it.
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
That's exactly my point of view, too. Because I see life and condition of israelis and (!) palestinians as important, I think the retaliation-operations of the palestinians as a mean to restrain the killing of palestinian civilians through the israeli army are a necessity. The retaliation-operations were saving lifes at the end of the day.
Your right!!! Thank goodness for those retaliations! I mean, it would make no sense for the palestinian arabs to cease fire. If Israel is really being so heavy handed, they would naturally continue to savagely attack unarmed civilians. The world would have no choice but to punish Israel in that event. But that makes no sense at all.
What's scary is that you and the palestinians probably really believe that the retaliations are working. Newsflash: they aren't working. There is more bloodshed now than there ever was. Try a new tactic... like negotiating. You're destroying your future when you strap your children with explosives and send them into settlements. Just my opinion.
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You reap what you sow.
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Originally posted by deomacius:
Your right!!! Thank goodness for those retaliations! I mean, it would make no sense for the palestinian arabs to cease fire. If Israel is really being so heavy handed, they would naturally continue to savagely attack unarmed civilians. The world would have no choice but to punish Israel in that event. But that makes no sense at all.
What's scary is that you and the palestinians probably really believe that the retaliations are working. Newsflash: they aren't working. There is more bloodshed now than there ever was. Try a new tactic... like negotiating. You're destroying your future when you strap your children with explosives and send them into settlements. Just my opinion.
How shall we negotiate when there is no partner in peace? Isn't giving up more than 70% of our land good enough? Do we also have to live in small enclaves and go through checkpoints while we go visit our relatives or go to work? That was started long before the first intifada and will go on for many years.
And if you really think that the world would start punishing Israel for it's crimes against humanity you must live in a world of dreams. The world has backstabbed and ignored us for more than 80 years. Why should we trust them to deal justly with us now?
The world doesn't get to know half of what happens in Gaza and Cis'Jordan because Israel shuts out reporters. Just ask the people in Jenin.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Originally posted by Splinter:
I can understand that, I disagree but I understand. It just seems you have an awful lot of good things to say and support for people who carry out "retaliation" against my little sister my mother my brother my friends on their way to have a drink to ride the bus to see a movie you know... the criminal types... funny that. If you must retaliate do it against those responsible don�t bring anyone else into your fight.
It's very sad that at the end of the day it's civilians, on both sides, that have to pay the price.
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
How shall we negotiate when there is no partner in peace? Isn't giving up more than 70% of our land good enough? Do we also have to live in small enclaves and go through checkpoints while we go visit our relatives or go to work? That was started long before the first intifada and will go on for many years.
Consider this... perhaps there would be no checkpoints if individuals didn't blow themselves to kingdom come taking civilians with them. Just a thought.
And if you really think that the world would start punishing Israel for it's crimes against humanity you must live in a world of dreams. The world has backstabbed and ignored us for more than 80 years. Why should we trust them to deal justly with us now?
I'm confident that if the palestinian arabs stopped killing and made a good faith effort to reform the terrorists, things would change. Israel attacking a passive group of people would be the equivalent of hitting an unarmed woman. The global community would have no choice but to intervene. The palestinian arabs haven't tried this "tactic" so you can't really say it wouldn't work.
The world doesn't get to know half of what happens in Gaza and Cis'Jordan because Israel shuts out reporters. Just ask the people in Jenin.
All the governments that matter are FULLY aware of what's going on there. They are the ones who decide if action is necessary or not. I'm NO cheerleader for government, but I'm pretty sure at least our government would have something to say to Israel if they attacked a passive palestinian enemy.
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
It's very sad that at the end of the day it's civilians, on both sides, that have to pay the price.
You and I are in 100% agreement on this.
I would add that it's sad anytime innocents have to get caught up in the conflicts of greedy or selfish people.
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You reap what you sow.
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Originally posted by deomacius:
Consider this... perhaps there would be no checkpoints if individuals didn't blow themselves to kingdom come taking civilians with them. Just a thought.
Consider this... perhaps there would be no individuals if their land hadn't been stolen from them to begin with and if the Europeans would have wanted to take care of their own problem instead of dumping it on another population.
I'm confident that if the palestinian arabs stopped killing and made a good faith effort to reform the terrorists, things would change. Israel attacking a passive group of people would be the equivalent of hitting an unarmed woman. The global community would have no choice but to intervene. The palestinian arabs haven't tried this "tactic" so you can't really say it wouldn't work.
They've tried that several times but always been backstabbed by either Israel or it's puppet the US. We were willing to give up more than 70% of our original homeland for peace. We have already recognised Israel as a state. Unfortunately Israel isn't ready for peace yet. Israel hasn't made one concession in the peacetalks while we Palestinians have give up 70% of our land. Yes, some go to far in their zeal to get a free Palestinian state but the majority just wants to get on with their lives. But as long as Israel kills our children and parents there will always be people seeking revenge and/or using every way possible to keep the Israelis in check. After more than 60 years of trying every possible way of gaining independence. My generation and the kids growing up now know of nothing but destruction, oppression, slaughter and the feeling of being imprisoned in their own land because of Israels actions. Until something is done to get Israel to respect Palestinian lives there will be no peace. Palestine has already given up 70% of her homeland. Palestine has already recognised Israel as a legitimate state. Israel still wants more.
All the governments that matter are FULLY aware of what's going on there. They are the ones who decide if action is necessary or not. I'm NO cheerleader for government, but I'm pretty sure at least our government would have something to say to Israel if they attacked a passive palestinian enemy.
It has been proven again and again that your government(I'm guessing it's the US government) won't do anything to keep Israel in check. It has been proven again and again that your government doesn't care about Palestinian lives. If they did they would demand that Israel removed the illegal settlements that are killing our people and for Israel to remove the Wall. They would force Israel to respect international laws when it comes to refugees. The list goes on.......
Perhaps you don't see the daily slaughter of my brothers and sisters in Palestine but I do. It is no surprise that some will resort to the most heavy handed tactics of seeking revenge when you live under those conditions.
I would add that it's sad anytime innocents have to get caught up in the conflicts of greedy or selfish people.
On this we completely agree. Unfortunately nothing is done to protect the innocents on my side of this conflict. Solving this with a just peace is the fastest way to solve the cancer that is eating away our world. OBL and his ilk as well as the US warmachine.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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WTF!!
We're arguing of wether Israel deserves land!
Damn!
Since you're Mr. Smarty Pants, where the hell are we supposed to "dump a population?"
You're worse than Logic.
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Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Since you're Mr. Smarty Pants, where the hell are we supposed to "dump a population?"
You are not supposed to dump a population upon anyone. You should make sure they feel safe in their own countries. And if someone prefers to live in a certain area(Palestine for example) they can move there and start working with the people already living there. You do not displace the population already living there and rob them of their land. That is what the European powers did and what the US later took over and supported and supports still today.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
You are not supposed to dump a population upon anyone. You should make sure they feel safe in their own countries. And if someone prefers to live in a certain area(Palestine for example) they can move there and start working with the people already living there. You do not displace the population already living there and rob them of their land. That is what the European powers did and what the US later took over and supported and supports still today.
Who was in Israel, or the area before boundaries were drawn up between 1948-67? You're a religious man I guess, you should have a slight idea.
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Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Who was in Israel, or the area before boundaries were drawn up between 1948-67? You're a religious man I guess, you should have a slight idea.
Christians, Jews and Muslims. Muslims were the majority and lived in peace with the other minorities. Just like they had always done.
A commission set up to analyse what was happening after the Balfour declaration(one of many backstabbings my people have suffered) noted that no attacks on Jews had been recorded by the British authority.
The only two places where Jews were a sizable minority by 1364(1945 according to the Gregorian calendar) were in Jerusalem(38%), Haifa(47%) and Jaffa(71%) were was the only place there was a Jewish majority. This was after the importing of foreigners into our land.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Baninated
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Muslims were the majority and lived in peace with the other minorities. Just like they had always done.
This was after the importing of foreigners into our land.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
I can understand that, I disagree but I understand. It just seems you have an awful lot of good things to say and support for people who carry out "retaliation" against my little sister my mother my brother my friends on their way to have a drink to ride the bus to see a movie you know... the criminal types... funny that. If you must retaliate do it against those responsible don�t bring anyone else into your fight.
I think you don't understand what retaliation means. Retaliation means to inflict the same harm on the civilian population as the enemy is inflicting on the own civilian population.
So, when Israel killed 30+ children in a timeframe of two weeks in Gaza, it wouldn't be at all retaliation if the palestinians would kill 30 israeli soldiers, even if they could.
Now you could say then it would be better to just forgive and not to retaliate at all, and instead to focus on defeating the israeli army in Gaza and Westbank. I would agree to such an idea, as killing civilians is always abhorrent, but the palestinians don't have the means to defeat the israeli army.
Now you could argue, if the palestinians can't defeat the israeli army they shouldn't resist at all. But that is not acceptable, as Israel wants to drive out palestinians from the westbank, and has done so before partly and is the explicit goal of zionists.
Originally posted by Splinter:
No right? First off to the soldiers it looked as if they were setting up a bomb or something maybe to launch a rocket in either case it was observed as a direct threat to their lives. And you need to make up your minds about if we should be allowed to capture and imprison these guys. Because half the time you claim that legally Israel has no right to go after them like that so fine they are hunted instead but no that�s not acceptable either might as well just let them in with no problems... "What�s that you have there? 200KG of bomb material? Ok you can pass" gimmie a break its one or the other. If your lives depended on not letting these guys through you would be doing the exact same thing and you know it.
You are right, since Israel is illegaly occupying Gaza, Israel has no right to stop/battle the palestinians that smuggle weapons into Gaza. Israel would have only the right to battle/stop palestinians trying to enter Israel with weapons.
That's the whole problem, eventhough Israel wants to withdraw its settlers and troops from most of Gaza, Israel still plans to keep control of a security-strip between Egypt and Gaza, and control all borders of Gaza, the coastline as well as the airspace.
So, it's only a little improvement for the palestinians in Gaza.
Off topic, or actually on topic, Sharon has just changed his policy of not wanting to negotiate with palestinians, as long as the palestinians don't fight the militants:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4026129.stm
Taliesin
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Consider this... perhaps there would be no individuals if their land hadn't been stolen from them to begin with and if the Europeans would have wanted to take care of their own problem instead of dumping it on another population.
Dude the switching of land between one owner and another has been going on for century�s even millennia... Israel (that area on the map) switched hands between Romans and Babylonians and Alexander�s forces and Israelites and philistines and hundreds of other guys... its just the way it was. And at the time it was given back to Israel Britain controlled it.
I disagree with the displacement of the local inhabitants even after the state was created... because even though most WANTED to leave and did so many wanted to stay, many were allowed to, but many others were driven out. People who don�t handle situations as they should exist in every culture.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
They've tried that several times but always been backstabbed by either Israel or it's puppet the US. We were willing to give up more than 70% of our original homeland for peace. We have already recognised Israel as a state. Unfortunately Israel isn't ready for peace yet. Israel hasn't made one concession in the peacetalks while we Palestinians have give up 70% of our land. Yes, some go to far in their zeal to get a free Palestinian state but the majority just wants to get on with their lives. But as long as Israel kills our children and parents there will always be people seeking revenge and/or using every way possible to keep the Israelis in check. After more than 60 years of trying every possible way of gaining independence. My generation and the kids growing up now know of nothing but destruction, oppression, slaughter and the feeling of being imprisoned in their own land because of Israels actions. Until something is done to get Israel to respect Palestinian lives there will be no peace. Palestine has already given up 70% of her homeland. Palestine has already recognised Israel as a legitimate state. Israel still wants more.
Yes you see to Muslims the US is Israel�s puppet remember that... Jews control the world next to Masons don't you know?
You were willing to give up what? You not only were not willing to give up that tiny little bit of Muslim land you actually convinced the UN to let you keep 2 thirds of it! Which is now Jordan thanks you very much.
YOU were willing to give up 70% of what land? What area on the map belongs to you that you were going to give to Israel for peace?
I can�t believe they actually brainwashed you finally into believing the crap you spout! "After 60 years of trying to gain independence"... AFTER 60 YEARS OF TRYING TO EXTERMINATE JEWS! Learn you war history it�ll help you in this debate.
Yes Israel doesn�t respect Palestinian lives like when my brother was in Jenin at the time of the "massacre" and the commanders made the soldiers get out of their APCS and armored vehicles so they could search the houses on foot and not have to kill excessive innocents to get rid of the threat and how 22 soldiers 13 of them by a booby trap in a "civilians house" died so that more Palestinians wouldn�t have to... yeah that�s disrespect.
If the world doesn�t even see how apart form the soldiers personal feelings that in their jobs they are trying to respect life then fu<K it. Why bother? It just makes things more difficult and takes longer. And people complain just as much either way.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
It has been proven again and again that your government(I'm guessing it's the US government) won't do anything to keep Israel in check. It has been proven again and again that your government doesn't care about Palestinian lives. If they did they would demand that Israel removed the illegal settlements that are killing our people and for Israel to remove the Wall. They would force Israel to respect international laws when it comes to refugees. The list goes on.......
[rant of Palestinian terrorist]Yes don�t you see... you must remove the wall so our terrorist bombers can get past... you damn Americans and j00z why wont you let us murder your children where they go to school and while they are shopping! You insolent pigs!!! Remove the wall don�t make our people going into Israel be checked for weapons or bombs on them!! We may be forced to not kill innocents and actually start hurting military targets. That�s just not barbaric enough![/rant of Palestinian terrorist]
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Perhaps you don't see the daily slaughter of my brothers and sisters in Palestine but I do. It is no surprise that some will resort to the most heavy handed tactics of seeking revenge when you live under those conditions.
Yes the incursions into the west bank and Gaza started when? Hmm? With the Intefada? Who started the Intefada and is responsible for creating a situation of forcing Israel into a place they really don�t want to be in the west bank and Gaza strip? Your brothers and sisters. You want Israel out? Quite the attacks and it�ll be done.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
On this we completely agree. Unfortunately nothing is done to protect the innocents on my side of this conflict. Solving this with a just peace is the fastest way to solve the cancer that is eating away our world. OBL and his ilk as well as the US warmachine.
Solving this with a just peace well that�s the first thing you said that makes sense except that you contradicted the part where your "brothers and sisters" are justified in blowing up innocents and such but yeah a just peace would be nice. I would say you should lean more towards that.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Christians, Jews and Muslims. Muslims were the majority and lived in peace with the other minorities. Just like they had always done.
*Cough* Anti-Jewish Riots in 1920-21, which was characterized by the brutal murder in Jaffa of the prominent Jewish author Y. Brenner
'Disturbances' of 1929, which included the massacre of the Jewish community in Hebron
Many incidents of anti-Jewish violence during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 etc etc etc yada yada yada and on and on and on. Nice idea of peace you have there. I don�t think either side lived in complete peace before OR after 1948.
and even after that...
While the Palestinians claim that terrorism is a response to "occupation," the fact is that Palestinian terrorism predates Israel's presence in the territories. Numerous terrorist attacks murdered and maimed Israeli civilians during the two decades before 1967 (and even before the
establishment of the State of Israel in 1948). Therefore,
terrorism was and still is nothing less than a tool intended
to eventually bring about the destruction of Israel itself.
Jan 1, 1952 - Jerusalem
7 armed terrorists attacked and killed a 19 year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael.
June 9, 1953 - Lod and Hadera
Terrorists killed a resident of Lod, after throwing hand grenades and spraying gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in Hadera.
Jun 11, 1953 - Kfar Hess
Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home and shot them to death.
Mar 17, 1954 - Maale Akrabim
Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, opening fire at short range. The terrorists boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one, murdering 11.
Jan 2, 1955 - Judean Desert
2 hikers killed by terrorists.
Mar 24, 1955 - Patish
1 young woman killed and 18 wounded when terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowded wedding celebration.
Apr 7, 1956 - Ashkelon
1 young woman killed when terrorists threw 3 hand grenades into her house.
Apr 7, 1956 - Kibbutz Givat Chaim
2 killed when terrorists opened fire on a car.
Apr 11, 1956 - Shafrir (Kfar Chabad)
3 children and 1 youth worker killed, and 5 injured, when terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers.
Sep 12, 1956 - Ein Ofarim
Terrorists killed 3 Druze guards.
Sep 23, 1956 - Kibbutz Ramat Rachel
4 archaeologists killed and 16 wounded when terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position.
Oct 4, 1956 - Sdom
5 Israeli workers killed.
Oct 9, 1956 - Neve Hadasah
2 workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village.
Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the north and center of Israel. 6 Israelis were wounded.
Feb 18, 1957 - Nir Yitzhak
2 civilians killed by terrorist landmines.
Apr 16, 1957 - Kibbutz Mesilot
2 guards killed by terrorists who infiltrated from Jordan.
May 29, 1957 - Kibbutz Kisufim
1 killed and 2 wounded when their vehicle struck a landmine.
Aug 23, 1957 - Kibbutz Beit Govrin
2 guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company killed.
Feb 11, 1958 - Kfar Yona
Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov.
Apr 5, 1958 - Tel Lachish
Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed 2 people.
May 26, 1958 - Jerusalem
4 Israeli police officers killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus.
Nov 17, 1958 - Mt. of the Beatitudes | Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent.
Dec 3, 1958- Kibbutz Gonen
A shepherd killed and 31 civilians wounded in an artillery attack.
Feb 1, 1959 - Moshav Zavdiel
3 civilians killed by a terrorist landmine.
Apr 27, 1959 - Masada
2 hikers shot and killed at close range.
Apr 26, 1960 - Ashkelon
Terrorists killed a resident of the city.
Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier - the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.
July 5, 1965 - Mitzpe Massua
A Fatah cell planted explosives near Beit Guvrin, and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kfar Battir.
May 16, 1966 - Northern Galilee region | 2 Israelis killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine. Tracks led into Syria.
Jul 13, 1966 - Almagor
2 soldiers and 1 civilian killed when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
A commission set up to analyse what was happening after the Balfour declaration(one of many backstabbings my people have suffered) noted that no attacks on Jews had been recorded by the British authority.
Roooight
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I think you don't understand what retaliation means. Retaliation means to inflict the same harm on the civilian population as the enemy is inflicting on the own civilian population.
That is not ture in most places. But in the mindset of the terrorists over here I wouldnt be suprised if they belived that.
Originally posted by Taliesin:
So, when Israel killed 30+ children in a timeframe of two weeks in Gaza, it wouldn't be at all retaliation if the palestinians would kill 30 israeli soldiers, even if they could.
wouldnt it? Israeli soldiers are as much thier mothers children as any child is. they are usually aged 18-21 most still live at home since they jsut graduated highschool. but they are the military and thus legit targets... no child or civilian is EVER a legitamet target, EVER.
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Now you could say then it would be better to just forgive and not to retaliate at all, and instead to focus on defeating the israeli army in Gaza and Westbank. I would agree to such an idea, as killing civilians is always abhorrent, but the palestinians don't have the means to defeat the israeli army.
Now you could argue, if the palestinians can't defeat the israeli army they shouldn't resist at all. But that is not acceptable, as Israel wants to drive out palestinians from the westbank, and has done so before partly and is the explicit goal of zionists.
It IS better to forgive and it IS better to focus on the army its even better not to do anything and demand a state cause they will get it this time around however the point is that the people carrying out the "retaliations" as you call them are the terrorists who don�t give a flying fu<k about a state they want j00z dead. That�s it they want j00 blood to roll around in and they can kiss my @ss and rot in hell.
Originally posted by Taliesin:
You are right, since Israel is illegaly occupying Gaza, Israel has no right to stop/battle the palestinians that smuggle weapons into Gaza. Israel would have only the right to battle/stop palestinians trying to enter Israel with weapons.
And yet as circumstances are here the law is not right for once because the weapons smuggled in can be sued without crossing the borders... like the quassams.
So something has to be done and stopping them where they enter is the answer I don�t give a fart colored purple whether its legal or not. It�s the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Taliesin:
That's the whole problem, eventhough Israel wants to withdraw its settlers and troops from most of Gaza, Israel still plans to keep control of a security-strip between Egypt and Gaza, and control all borders of Gaza, the coastline as well as the airspace.
So, it's only a little improvement for the palestinians in Gaza.
As well they should.
Let us hope they listen it's about time they dealt with their own garbage!
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Last edited by Splinter; Nov 20, 2004 at 03:33 PM.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
Dude the switching of land between one owner and another has been going on for century�s even millennia... Israel (that area on the map) switched hands between Romans and Babylonians and Alexander�s forces and Israelites and philistines and hundreds of other guys... its just the way it was. And at the time it was given back to Israel Britain controlled it. I disagree with the displacement of the local inhabitants even after the state was created... because even though most WANTED to leave and did so many wanted to stay many were allowed but many others were driven out. People who don�t handle situations, as they should exist in every culture.
The Palestininians were promised Palestine for themselves. That was until Europe needed to get rid of the Jews because of their own anti-semitism. It was at that time Zionism started to grow into the pest we know it as today. The European Zionists then started lobbying for their own land and that culminated in the illegal creation of Israel. 70% of what was promised to Palestine we have now ceded and accepted that Israel can have. And it is true that Palestine has changed "owners" since the beginning of time. That doesn't make it right. We have always lived there and we will always live there.
Yes you see to Muslims the US is Israel�s puppet remember that... Jews control the world next to Masons don't you know?
I never said that. The US doesn't rule the world and never will. But they do have a veto in the Security Council and has used it whenever Israel has wanted them to even if all the other members thought it was time to restrict Israels brutal oppression. Israel and the Zionist lobby also control all US politics when it comes to the brutal oppression of my people. Was it Dean that said he wanted to deal with it "evenhandedly"? What happened to his ambitions after that? That is just one example of many of how much control the Zionists hold over US foreign policy.
You were willing to give up what? You not only were not willing to give up that tiny little bit of Muslim land you actually convinced the UN to let you keep 2 thirds of it! Now Jordan thanks you very much. YOU were willing to give up 70% of what land? What area on the map belongs to you that you were going to give to Israel for peace? I can�t believe they actually brainwashed you finally into believing the crap you spout! After 60 years of trying to gain independence... AFTER 60 YEARS OF TRYING TO EXTERMINATE JEWS! Learn you war history it�ll help you in this debate. Yes Israel doesn�t respect Palestinian lives like when my brother was in Jenin at the time of the (massacre) and the commanders made the soldiers get out of their APCS and armored vehicles so they could search the houses on foot and not have to kill excessive innocents to get rid of the threat and how 22 soldiers 13 of them by a booby trap in a "civilians house" died so that more Palestinians wouldn�t have to... yeah that�s disrespect. If the world doesn�t even see how apart form the soldiers personal feelings that in their jobs they are trying to respect life then fu<K it. Why bother? It just makes things more difficult and takes longer. And people complain just as much either way.
Of course we weren't willing to give up our own land. Muslims were the majority in all areas of Palestine before the importing of Zionists into Palestine and they continued to be a majority in all areas except one at the time of the partition plan. Still we only got 2/3 of our land. Then later on our great leader Arafat signed the Oslo accords that recognised Israel's right to exist on 70% of our ancestral land. That is the 70% of our land that we were willing to give up for peace. Israel hasn't given anything in return but more blood spilled. And no one is trying to exterminate the Jews except a few radicals that will be dealt with as soon as we can. And perhaps you should talk to the people of Jenin before claiming that the IOF values Palestinian lives. How they used human shields to enter buildings they were afraid were booby trapped. How they put innocent Palestinians out on balconies where they had established bases to prevent being fired upon. Perhaps if you don't trust us you should take a look at human rights watches report into the Jenin massacre. Of course many in the IOF are just as respectable as the Palestinians and a large part of Israelis. But the politicians who make the decisions are not. You elected a convicted massmurderer for Prime Minister. That is how much you respect Palestinian lives.
[rant of Palestinian terrorist]Yes don�t you see... you must remove the wall so our terrorist bombers can get past... you damn Americans and j00z why wont you let us murder your children where they go to school and while they are shopping! You insolent pigs!!! Remove the wall don�t make our people going into Israel be checked for weapons or bombs on them!! We may be forced to not kill innocents and actually start hurting military targets. That�s just not barbaric enough![/rant of Palestinian terrorist]
No one would care about the wall if it didn't cut into our land. If you built it inside Israel no one would complain. But when it cuts through our towns and villages, separates us from our farms and work you can be sure we will complain and most of the world will complain.
Yes the incursions into the west bank and Gaza started when? Hmm? With the Intefada? Who started the Intefada and is responsible for creating a situation of forcing Israel into a place they really don�t want to be in the west bank and Gaza strip? Your brothers and sisters. You want Israel out? Quite the attacks and it�ll be done.
The incursions started in the first war. It has nothing to do with the intifada. Just as building settlements inside our land shows how little you are interested in peace. If you consider Gaza and the West Bank as yours then you should consider us as Israelis and give us the right to vote. Why don't you do that?
Solving this with a just peace well that�s the first thing you said that makes sense except that you contradicted the part where your "brothers and sisters" are justified in blowing up innocents and such but yeah a just peace would be nice. I would say you should learn more towards that.
Just like you consider the settlements, the wall, the military presence and the daily slaughter of our kids to be justified the retaliation attacks are as well. They are an evil necessity. Until you are interested in peace we will continue to resist the slaughter of our children with all means possible to us. We don't like it because killing a human being is like killing the whole human kind, but we must resist the occupation for the sake of our children.
*Cough* Anti-Jewish Riots in 1920-21, which was characterized by the brutal murder in Jaffa of the prominent Jewish author Y. Brenner
'Disturbances' of 1929, which included the massacre of the Jewish community in Hebron
Many incidents of anti-Jewish violence during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 etc etc etc yada yada yada and on and on and on. Nice idea of peace you have there. I don�t think either side lived in complete peace before OR after 1948.
and even after that...
While the Palestinians claim that terrorism is a response to "occupation," the fact is that Palestinian terrorism predates Israel's presence in the territories. Numerous terrorist attacks murdered and maimed Israeli civilians during the two decades before 1967 (and even before the
establishment of the State of Israel in 1948). Therefore,
terrorism was and still is nothing less than a tool intended
to eventually bring about the destruction of Israel itself.
Yes the resistance started before 48. Don't you know your own history? I said the Balfour Declaration that was one of the first backstabbings dealt out by the west. The Balfour Declaration was in the year 1917. All you mentioned is what happened after that.
Excerpt from the Shaw commission.
"In less than 10 years three serious attacks have been made by Arabs on Jews. For 80 years before the first of these attacks there is no recorded instance of any similar incidents. It is obvious then that the relations between the two races during the past decade must have differed in some material respect from those which previously obtained. Of this we found ample evidence. The reports of the Military Court and of the local Commission which, in 1920 and in 1921 respectively, enquired into the disturbances of those years, drew attention to the change in the attitude of the Arab population towards the Jews in Palestine. This was borne out by the evidence tendered during our inquiry when representatives of all parties told us that before the War the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which to-day is almost unknown in Palestine".
And just because I'm an Arab living in Arabia doesn't mean I'm brainwashed. It just means that I have another perspective. Just like you have another perspective. And it is not until we can respect each others perspective that a just peace can be achieved. And calling the other side brainwashed is not a way to establish peace.
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
The Palestininians were promised Palestine for themselves. That was until Europe needed to get rid of the Jews because of their own anti-semitism. It was at that time Zionism started to grow into the pest we know it as today. The European Zionists then started lobbying for their own land and that culminated in the illegal creation of Israel. 70% of what was promised to Palestine we have now ceded and accepted that Israel can have. And it is true that Palestine has changed "owners" since the beginning of time. That doesn't make it right. We have always lived there and we will always live there.
There is a problem with you first sentence. In that time period there were no Palestinians. In fact there still aren�t technically but hey... that�s the rules of the middle east you say things enough times people will just get tired of arguing and accept it like the phony belief that Palestinians aren�t exactly the same people as the neighbors around them.
"Zionism the pest it is today" you mean the entity that desired a state?... now who do we have nowadays who wants a state and are being "pests"?
Recreation of Israel mind you... Israel had existed many hundreds and thousands of years before this one.
I'm sorry but 70% of what was promised was not given to the Jews... it was given to you in the form of Jordan and then after that you even managed to get another third of what was meant to be Israel in the form of the west bank. I don�t see where that was meant to be Palestine... unless you consider where they say the division of Palestine but that was still referring to the division into a Jewish state not a Palestinian state... they imply called it Palestine because that�s what it was called at the time and they didn�t know what the Jews would call their homeland after they got it.
Palestine hasn�t changed owners many times in history since it only existed once... and then it wasn�t even a real country. Lets just say the land area we are talking about has changed hands many times.
Did it make it right any of the times it happened? When will be the last time it will be alright? You say it yourself just because it happened before doesn�t make it right. Well then why are you trying to do it again? It�s only not right when it doesn�t change into your hands I understand now. Yes some "Palestinians" descendants have lived there for thousands of years and so on and so have the Jews I don�t see that you have any more claim to it then the Jews. It�s the Jews historical political and religious home id say that makes for a pretty damn strong claim to that land.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
I never said that. The US doesn't rule the world and never will. But they do have a veto in the Security Council and has used it whenever Israel has wanted them to even if all the other members thought it was time to restrict Israels brutal oppression. Israel and the Zionist lobby also control all US politics when it comes to the brutal oppression of my people. Was it Dean that said he wanted to deal with it "evenhandedly"? What happened to his ambitions after that? That is just one example of many of how much control the Zionists hold over US foreign policy.
Yeah anyway like I said the 3vil j00z rul3 t3h wor1d... ph34rrrrr!!!
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Of course we weren't willing to give up our own land. Muslims were the majority in all areas of Palestine before the importing of Zionists into Palestine and they continued to be a majority in all areas except one at the time of the partition plan. Still we only got 2/3 of our land. Then later on our great leader Arafat signed the Oslo accords that recognised Israel's right to exist on 70% of our ancestral land. That is the 70% of our land that we were willing to give up for peace. Israel hasn't given anything in return but more blood spilled. And no one is trying to exterminate the Jews except a few radicals that will be dealt with as soon as we can. And perhaps you should talk to the people of Jenin before claiming that the IOF values Palestinian lives. How they used human shields to enter buildings they were afraid were booby trapped. How they put innocent Palestinians out on balconies where they had established bases to prevent being fired upon. Perhaps if you don't trust us you should take a look at human rights watches report into the Jenin massacre. Of course many in the IOF are just as respectable as the Palestinians and a large part of Israelis. But the politicians who make the decisions are not. You elected a convicted massmurderer for Prime Minister. That is how much you respect Palestinian lives.
Already been over the 2/3 land part but lets hit on your great leader Arafat... the one that has kept his "fellow Palestinians", even though he wasn�t one, in shambles in the poor house rotting to death not trying to help their economic or social situation... but letting them fight it out and even promoting the violence while hording the money that kept the poor Palestinian people so desperate. Yeah great dude... may the fleas of a thousand camels infest his rotting testicles!
At the Oslo accords he signed the paper that admitted Israel�s right to exist on 22% of your ancestral land... Jordan 66% West Bank another 11%. So wait the UN gives you 77 percent of what was first supposed to be Israel to appease you so that we wouldn�t have this war and $hit. And you complain about ISRAEL not giving anything up? So you want more of that 22% what do you want now? The upper Galilee? Maybe the Negev?
"And no one is trying to exterminate the Jews except a few radicals that will be dealt with as soon as we can." http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...9&#post2223990 just a few radicals? So the hundreds and hundreds of thousands that march in the rallies supporting Hammas and others are what? Lost tourists who don�t know what going on? *Opens eyes sniffs smells coffee* now you try.
Jenin:
Map from your precious HRW site of the destruction in Jenin
Ariel photos taken by numerous media agencies
does that look like an area of over 140 houses? what? it doesn�t? oh well. I guess someone messed up! 
Armored Israeli bulldozers flattened the entire Hawashin district, completely demolishing more than 100 multi-story homes in this area of the camp. The destruction in Jenin refugee camp left some 4,000 persons homeless, more than a quarter of the population of the camp.
now lets see 200 meters out of 3500 meters squared contains a quarter of the population of Jenin? oh I'm sorry MORE then a quarter of the population. hmm interesting. what are the chances that more then more then a quarter of the camp lives in a place 17.5 times smaller then the whole... wow
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...1/218vnicq.asp
http://www.nyu.edu/globalbeat/syndic...den050602.html
http://www.tenc.net/gilwhite/ranta.htm
http://www.instapundit.com/archives/010473.php
http://www.likud.nl/press180.html
http://www.jrep.com/Columnists/Article-137.html
http://www.voy.com/111230/340.html
or believe the reports of the humanitarian thingy where most of their material is based on first hand accounts by people whose religious sages endorse lying The famous Muslim theologian, al-Ghazzali, claimed that "the lie is not wrong in itself. If the lie is the way to achieve good results, then it is permissible. It is necessary to lie when the truth might lead to unpleasant or undesired results."
And I just picked off the first page of links...
just in case you thought those news resources might be a bit to biased here are a couple you may trust:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/....jenin.report/
http://www.internationalwallofprayer...te-Powell.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2165272.stm
Palestinians admit that they employed large amounts of explosive devices in Jenin. There were booby-trapped buildings and explosive devices configured as anti-personnel mines. Captured Islamic Jihad operative Tabeat Mardawi told CNN that 1,000-2,000 explosive devices had been prepared. An Islamic Jihad bomb-maker from Jenin told Al-Ahram Weekly: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp" (MEMRI, April 24, 2002). Moreover, because of the large amounts of Palestinian explosives in the camp, it is difficult to discern what component of this destruction was caused by Israeli forces and what part was a result of Palestinian detonation.
Politicians are all crooks 
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
No one would care about the wall if it didn't cut into our land. If you built it inside Israel no one would complain. But when it cuts through our towns and villages, separates us from our farms and work you can be sure we will complain and most of the world will complain.
This fence is for security so it must follow a route that ensures security. The green line is not a security line it�s a political line. The fence is not a border; final borders will be determined only through negotiations. Its a temporary step that Israel feels compelled to take until the Palestinian authority finally puts an end to the terror being carried out with its approval and financial and moral support and enters into a comprehensive peace agreement. In 40 months the Israeli population has suffered from 20,497 acts of terrorism including stabbings bombings axing shootings car ramming car bombs kidnapping. Had the Palestinian leadership abided by its pledge to act against terror there would have never been any need for the fence. Since the fence was completed around the Gaza strip not a single suicide bomber has gotten past. In the parts of the west bank where the fence terrorist activates have dropped by some 50%.
The "wall" is only 20km of the total 730 planned... that is less then 3% of the total "security FENCE" and that�s only where the danger of shooting attacks require a solid structure. There�s a delicate equation here that forces Israel to weigh the freedom of movement against the right to life. It is being built with the needs of the Palestinian people in mind as much as is possible while maintaining security. The fence will include 41 gates for farmers, 11 crossing points, and 5 terminals for the transfer of goods. The security fence is temporary meant to provide self defense it can be dismantled and moved within days its a phenomenon that can be reversed unlike the deaths that have resulted from the terrorists starting this "intefada� Israel has already moved fences as a result of political agreements. That�s what it did along its borders with Egypt Jordan and Lebanon. In fact Israel moved its Lebanese border security fence no less then 12 times! The anti-terror fence is a matter of self-defense. It�s a pragmatic effective, temporary measure necessitated by endless terror attacks. When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
Israel has replanted more than 63,000 olive trees (the main crop of Palestinian farmers) to ensure the livelihood of the Palestinian farmers despite construction of the fence. The few and I quote "FEW" landowners affected by the construction of the fence have been offered compensations for their lands and for their harvests of the next five years. While they retain legal ownership of their property.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
The incursions started in the first war. It has nothing to do with the intifada. Just as building settlements inside our land shows how little you are interested in peace. If you consider Gaza and the West Bank as yours then you should consider us as Israelis and give us the right to vote. Why don't you do that?
Look, as hard as it may be to remember 5 years ago there was relative peace.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Just like you consider the settlements, the wall, the military presence and the daily slaughter of our kids to be justified the retaliation attacks are as well. They are an evil necessity. Until you are interested in peace we will continue to resist the slaughter of our children with all means possible to us. We don't like it because killing a human being is like killing the whole human kind, but we must resist the occupation for the sake of our children.
The security fence is justified. not the rest. your retaliation takes a form that is inhuman when targeting innocents purposefully there is no excuse for it and it makes those who do it evil people who are now Satans sex slaves I�m sure. resist the slaughter of your children by condoning them strapping on bombs and killing other children... nice people you are. resist the occupation for the sake of your children because in no way shape or form has Israel ever looked remotely interested at peace. even now if you were to go up and say we will stop all attacks on any of your citizens and we will sit down to peaceful negotiations for us to gain independence Israel would say what? no we like having our children targeted and having to send our soldiers into the territories? stop living in a dream world where your people�s murderous tactics are somehow helping.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Yes the resistance started before 48. Don't you know your own history? I said the Balfour Declaration that was one of the first backstabbings dealt out by the west. The Balfour Declaration was in the year 1917. All you mentioned is what happened after that.
Excerpt from the Shaw commission.
"In less than 10 years three serious attacks have been made by Arabs on Jews. For 80 years before the first of these attacks there is no recorded instance of any similar incidents. It is obvious then that the relations between the two races during the past decade must have differed in some material respect from those which previously obtained. Of this we found ample evidence. The reports of the Military Court and of the local Commission which, in 1920 and in 1921 respectively, enquired into the disturbances of those years, drew attention to the change in the attitude of the Arab population towards the Jews in Palestine. This was borne out by the evidence tendered during our inquiry when representatives of all parties told us that before the War the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which to-day is almost unknown in Palestine".
And just because I'm an Arab living in Arabia doesn't mean I'm brainwashed. It just means that I have another perspective. Just like you have another perspective. And it is not until we can respect each others perspective that a just peace can be achieved. And calling the other side brainwashed is not a way to establish peace.
"Who was in Israel, or the area before boundaries were drawn up between 1948-67? You're a religious man I guess, you should have a slight idea." that was the question presented to you... before 1948. you answered "Christians, Jews and Muslims. Muslims were the majority and lived in peace with the other minorities. Just like they had always done." and so I quoted some sources of how that was not true. that before 1948 there were many problems and confrontations.
you live in Saudi Arabia? I thought you called yourself a Palestinian? never mind anyway I called you brainwashed because you believed that "After 60 years of trying to gain independence" whereas the truth being "AFTER 60 YEARS OF TRYING TO EXTERMINATE JEWS!" it seemed as though you believed a lie. and therefore you sounded brainwashed. maybe the Arab nations when they attacked Israel told the Palestinians they were trying to liberate them and such maybe its not your fault you believe that. but its not the truth as history shows.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
There is a problem with you first sentence. In that time period there were no Palestinians. In fact there still aren�t technically but hey... that�s the rules of the middle east you say things enough times people will just get tired of arguing and accept it like the phony belief that Palestinians aren�t exactly the same people as the neighbors around them.
First, are you trying to say that we Palestinians don't exist? Or that we didn't exist before the illegal creation of Israel? Because we have been in Palestine from the beginning of history and will always exist. Perhaps you need to go back to school. It has also been proven genetically that the Jewish people and the Palestinians are closer genetically than the Palestinians to the Arabs and the Jews to Europeans. So if you try to claim that we don't exist you are also claiming that you don't exist. Is that what you are trying to say?
"Zionism the pest it is today" you mean the entity that desired a state?... now who do we have nowadays who wants a state and are being "pests"?
Zionists? Or were you refering specifically to a certain group of people? And calling a certain ethnically defined group a pest is what exactly?
Recreation of Israel mind you... Israel had existed many hundreds and thousands of years before this one.
Yes, but the Palestinian people live there now, lived there then and lived there before. So excluding us from having a state is pretty disgusting.
I'm sorry but 70% of what was promised was not given to the Jews... it was given to you in the form of Jordan and then after that you even managed to get another third of what was meant to be Israel in the form of the west bank. I don�t see where that was meant to be Palestine... unless you consider where they say the division of Palestine but that was still referring to the division into a Jewish state not a Palestinian state... they imply called it Palestine because that�s what it was called at the time and they didn�t know what the Jews would call their homeland after they got it.
Back to the history books with you.
http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...agreement.html
See where it says Allied Condomonium? That's Palestine and that was what would later be divided between the Zionists and the Palestinians. Of that land you got 70% and we have already signed an agreement accepting that. I think you need to return to your history books. Or did you have any when growing up at all?
Palestine hasn�t changed owners many times in history since it only existed once... and then it wasn�t even a real country. Lets just say the land area we are talking about has changed hands many times.
The land called Palestine.
Did it make it right any of the times it happened? When will be the last time it will be alright? You say it yourself just because it happened before doesn�t make it right. Well then why are you trying to do it again? It�s only not right when it doesn�t change into your hands I understand now. Yes some "Palestinians" descendants have lived there for thousands of years and so on and so have the Jews I don�t see that you have any more claim to it then the Jews. It�s the Jews historical political and religious home id say that makes for a pretty damn strong claim to that land.
Religious and political claims have nothing to do with this. It's about where people and families have lived for thousands of years and are now being denied to create a state there.
And I'm not saying Israel should be wiped off the map. I've said that several times. I'm saying that we have accepted that Israel will exist outside of the West Bank and Gaza. And that the West Bank and Gaza as well as Eastern Jerusalem should be returned to us so that we can create a state and join the community of free people around the world. Something that Israel has so far denied us and thinks is too much.
Yeah anyway like I said the 3vil j00z rul3 t3h wor1d... ph34rrrrr!!!
Stop being silly.
Already been over the 2/3 land part but lets hit on your great leader Arafat... the one that has kept his "fellow Palestinians", even though he wasn�t one, in shambles in the poor house rotting to death not trying to help their economic or social situation... but letting them fight it out and even promoting the violence while hording the money that kept the poor Palestinian people so desperate. Yeah great dude... may the fleas of a thousand camels infest his rotting testicles!
Israel already got a hit at him. It's very likely that he was killed by Mossad. And he was a Palestinian even if he wasn't born in Palestine. Both his parents were Palestinians. Or are you claiming that if you aren't born in a country you aren't from that particular country? And did he not choose to stay in Ramallah even if Israel demolished most of his compound? That shows that he didn't care about the money but that he cared about the Palestinian people.
At the Oslo accords he signed the paper that admitted Israel�s right to exist on 22% of your ancestral land... Jordan 66% West Bank another 11%. So wait the UN gives you 77 percent of what was first supposed to be Israel to appease you so that we wouldn�t have this war and $hit. And you complain about ISRAEL not giving anything up? So you want more of that 22% what do you want now? The upper Galilee? Maybe the Negev?
Again, we aren't Jordanians. We are Palestinians. I pointed you to the genetics of it as well as the political division of Arabia.
"And no one is trying to exterminate the Jews except a few radicals that will be dealt with as soon as we can." http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...9&#post2223990 just a few radicals? So the hundreds and hundreds of thousands that march in the rallies supporting Hammas and others are what? Lost tourists who don�t know what going on? *Opens eyes sniffs smells coffee* now you try.
They support them because Hamas fights for an independent Palestine. Yes, Hamas is extreme and makes some claims about wanting to throw Israelis into the sea etc but most the people supporting them support them for the resistance in the territories as well as that they fight for independance. Every organisation fighting for an independant Palestine gets our support even if we don't agree with 100% of their actions. Or do you vote only for people you agree 100% with?
Perhaps you should take a stroll about that area to see the destruction with your own eyes. I have. I have also talked to the people there and heard how the "operation" went on.
Palestinians admit that they employed large amounts of explosive devices in Jenin. There were booby-trapped buildings and explosive devices configured as anti-personnel mines. Captured Islamic Jihad operative Tabeat Mardawi told CNN that 1,000-2,000 explosive devices had been prepared. An Islamic Jihad bomb-maker from Jenin told Al-Ahram Weekly: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp" (MEMRI, April 24, 2002). Moreover, because of the large amounts of Palestinian explosives in the camp, it is difficult to discern what component of this destruction was caused by Israeli forces and what part was a result of Palestinian detonation.
Of course they put IED's everywhere they could. They were trying to defend their homes. But they also knew where they were and take the IED's away after the "operations" are over. Something that Israel doesn't do with the unexploded shells they leave behind and that have killed scores of Palestinians.
This fence is for security so it must follow a route that ensures security. The green line is not a security line it�s a political line. The fence is not a border; final borders will be determined only through negotiations. Its a temporary step that Israel feels compelled to take until the Palestinian authority finally puts an end to the terror being carried out with its approval and financial and moral support and enters into a comprehensive peace agreement. In 40 months the Israeli population has suffered from 20,497 acts of terrorism including stabbings bombings axing shootings car ramming car bombs kidnapping. Had the Palestinian leadership abided by its pledge to act against terror there would have never been any need for the fence. Since the fence was completed around the Gaza strip not a single suicide bomber has gotten past. In the parts of the west bank where the fence terrorist activates have dropped by some 50%.
The "wall" is only 20km of the total 730 planned... that is less then 3% of the total "security FENCE" and that�s only where the danger of shooting attacks require a solid structure. There�s a delicate equation here that forces Israel to weigh the freedom of movement against the right to life. It is being built with the needs of the Palestinian people in mind as much as is possible while maintaining security. The fence will include 41 gates for farmers, 11 crossing points, and 5 terminals for the transfer of goods. The security fence is temporary meant to provide self defense it can be dismantled and moved within days its a phenomenon that can be reversed unlike the deaths that have resulted from the terrorists starting this "intefada� Israel has already moved fences as a result of political agreements. That�s what it did along its borders with Egypt Jordan and Lebanon. In fact Israel moved its Lebanese border security fence no less then 12 times! The anti-terror fence is a matter of self-defense. It�s a pragmatic effective, temporary measure necessitated by endless terror attacks. When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
I know you Zionists want to call this a fence. But to us Palestinians it's a wall. Why? Because it is a wall in every village it cuts through and everywhere we have to cross it. It doesn't matter what you call it. It is a wall. It also prevents free movement within our own land. That's the problem. You Zionists would never accept something like that in Israel because of your history. But you can accept it for people with darker skin that you.
Israel has replanted more than 63,000 olive trees (the main crop of Palestinian farmers) to ensure the livelihood of the Palestinian farmers despite construction of the fence. The few and I quote "FEW" landowners affected by the construction of the fence have been offered compensations for their lands and for their harvests of the next five years. While they retain legal ownership of their property.
Do you know how long it takes for olive grooves to begin to be profitable? About 20 years. Now how do you expect our people to live the remaining 15 years? That is not taking into account the lost contacts because you can't sell your product anymore.
Look, as hard as it may be to remember 5 years ago there was relative peace.
Because both were trying to achieve peace. Then you elected the murderous pig Sharon. And he started his Eretz Israel policy that has increased the hardship our people have suffered. That is why we took up our weapons again and restarted the intifada.
The security fence is justified. not the rest. your retaliation takes a form that is inhuman when targeting innocents purposefully there is no excuse for it and it makes those who do it evil people who are now Satans sex slaves I�m sure. resist the slaughter of your children by condoning them strapping on bombs and killing other children... nice people you are. resist the occupation for the sake of your children because in no way shape or form has Israel ever looked remotely interested at peace. even now if you were to go up and say we will stop all attacks on any of your citizens and we will sit down to peaceful negotiations for us to gain independence Israel would say what? no we like having our children targeted and having to send our soldiers into the territories? stop living in a dream world where your people�s murderous tactics are somehow helping.
Israeli soldiers also target innocent civilians. Israel also choses methods that insure "collateral damage". It's just as inhumane as the extremists tactics. But for some reason the nation that has it as a policy is rewarded while the nation that has a few citizens that do it without any approval is punished.
"Who was in Israel, or the area before boundaries were drawn up between 1948-67? You're a religious man I guess, you should have a slight idea." that was the question presented to you... before 1948. you answered "Christians, Jews and Muslims. Muslims were the majority and lived in peace with the other minorities. Just like they had always done." and so I quoted some sources of how that was not true. that before 1948 there were many problems and confrontations.
And I showed you that they lived in peace before 48. And I also showed you why that peace didn't last. You conveniently ignored it like the Zionists usually do with anything that doesn't suite their agenda.
you live in Saudi Arabia? I thought you called yourself a Palestinian? never mind anyway I called you brainwashed because you believed that "After 60 years of trying to gain independence" whereas the truth being "AFTER 60 YEARS OF TRYING TO EXTERMINATE JEWS!" it seemed as though you believed a lie. and therefore you sounded brainwashed. maybe the Arab nations when they attacked Israel told the Palestinians they were trying to liberate them and such maybe its not your fault you believe that. but its not the truth as history shows.
I live in Arabia but am a Palestinian. And the "truth" you provide is nothing but a lie perpetuated by the Zionists to prevent anyone from critisising Israel. Because anyone critisising Israel gets labeled an anti-semite just like the Nazis. That method has worked for 60 years but fortunately people are beginning to see through it.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Splinter - 2
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
First, are you trying to say that we Palestinians don't exist? Or that we didn't exist before the illegal creation of Israel? Because we have been in Palestine from the beginning of history and will always exist. Perhaps you need to go back to school. It has also been proven genetically that the Jewish people and the Palestinians are closer genetically than the Palestinians to the Arabs and the Jews to Europeans. So if you try to claim that we don't exist you are also claiming that you don't exist. Is that what you are trying to say?
No... The people exist... but the name is farce. It was simply chosen because it was the place that Arabs lived in that Britain called Palestine. The British could have called it Barsallalarta and you would now call yourself Barsallalartians.
You have been in this land area for many many years... your specific ancestors... well no one can prove quite precisely where they are from but it is recorded that the sons of Ishmael have always resided in this general area as did the sons of Jacob... plain and simple.
I would like to see the evidence of those genetic testing. Because I don�t believe that you take a bunch of Jordanians and Palestinians and compare them to Israelis and the Palestinians are closer to Israelis then they are to Jordanians... just looking at them in pictures and on the news you can tell that�s not true.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Zionists? Or were you refering specifically to a certain group of people? And calling a certain ethnically defined group a pest is what exactly?
You lost me there... All I'm saying is that�s exactly what people would say Palestinians are doing now... trying to get a place to call home and being a pest about it... except more so since the murder of innocents is slightly more then pesty.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Yes, but the Palestinian people live there now, lived there then and lived there before. So excluding us from having a state is pretty disgusting.
Palestinian people live in Israel now and are more then welcome to do so as long as they don�t blow people up yeah. We have pretty much established that both peoples have lived in that region for a very long time and since something about them seems to be so volatile they have to be separated in most cases. So I still don�t see the problem not only do the Palestinians have Jordan but now they want another state and to cut part out of Jerusalem ok fine I can accept that since Jordan has practically disowned them but seriously dude you want a state all you have to do is stop the intefada. It�s pretty damned simple. You stop the violence and what happens people sit, talk, work for peace, and resolving of the conflict happens.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Back to the history books with you.
http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...agreement.html
See where it says Allied Condomonium? That's Palestine and that was what would later be divided between the Zionists and the Palestinians. Of that land you got 70% and we have already signed an agreement accepting that. I think you need to return to your history books. Or did you have any when growing up at all?
that and the area called B zone yeah... however Israel got the much smaller portion since they gave you most of the B zone... are you trying to gain sympathy from us that you lost most your land when anyone with a geography book a map of the divisons and some knowledge of history could tell you that that wasnt true?
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
The land called Palestine.
Its not called it now it was called that once. So no right now the land is called Israel. Unless you want to argue with every map in the world... actually I wouldn�t be surprised if some maps actually drawn up today still had Palestine written on them... some people really just cant let go of things and grasp facts... (Not you, I�m referring to people who would draw a modern map and actually write Palestine over Israel)
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Religious and political claims have nothing to do with this. It's about where people and families have lived for thousands of years and are now being denied to create a state there.
Okay so the claims is of families who lived there before... well as has been shown both Jews and Arabs have lived there for dozens of centuries.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
And I'm not saying Israel should be wiped off the map. I've said that several times. I'm saying that we have accepted that Israel will exist outside of the West Bank and Gaza. And that the West Bank and Gaza as well as Eastern Jerusalem should be returned to us so that we can create a state and join the community of free people around the world. Something that Israel has so far denied us and thinks is too much.
I�m very glad to hear that. Its something that whether you accept or not will not change the fact of its existence... your saying okay you guys exist is supposed to be a bartering tool to get land? Well no duh it exists took Arafat that long to realize that? He REALLY couldn�t let go! Forget Gaza and the west bank let�s talk about east Jerusalem... it was taken from you... unlawfully... and who had it before you? As I recall it has been the capital of Israel for many many many many many years... for as long as Israel has been a state past or present Jerusalem has been its capital and is mentioned hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible. It is mentioned how many times in the Quran? Okay so ignore the religious aspects Jerusalem is your ancestral home? Well it was ours before yours and history proves that so by your reasoning Jerusalem should be Israel�s in its entirety. I agree thank you.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Stop being silly.
Oh but being silly is so much fun... its helps relieve tension and other unpleasant affects of smacking ones head into a wall.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Israel already got a hit at him. It's very likely that he was killed by Mossad. And he was a Palestinian even if he wasn't born in Palestine. Both his parents were Palestinians. Or are you claiming that if you aren't born in a country you aren't from that particular country? And did he not choose to stay in Ramallah even if Israel demolished most of his compound? That shows that he didn't care about the money but that he cared about the Palestinian people.
Well if Mossad killed him then kudos to them. Okay i'll accept your reasoning for calling him a Palestinian even though the origins of his parents are highly debated. No he didn�t choose to stay in Ramallah Israel put him under "house arrest" there. He didn�t have much choice. And he very much cared for his money and not for the starving people around him... seriously a man sitting on billions and some of his people are still starving to death? A good leader? An honorable man? I think not!
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Again, we aren't Jordanians. We are Palestinians. I pointed you to the genetics of it as well as the political division of Arabia.
What does that have to do with what I posted? And I never said you WERE Jordanians I said Jordan was the home created for you by the UN. Only the people IN Jordan are Jordanians.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
They support them because Hamas fights for an independent Palestine. Yes, Hamas is extreme and makes some claims about wanting to throw Israelis into the sea etc but most the people supporting them support them for the resistance in the territories as well as that they fight for independance. Every organisation fighting for an independant Palestine gets our support even if we don't agree with 100% of their actions. Or do you vote only for people you agree 100% with?
Yeah killing innocents great resistance... forget the military targets. They could shoot you first before you kill them so go after the people with no defenses the people just living their lives... sure resistance at its ugliest my friend (if it could be called resistance) besides the Palestine they are fighting for isn�t that little place called west bank and Gaza the area they want is anywhere the Jews are so as to make them... not there. Its racism at its best.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Perhaps you should take a stroll about that area to see the destruction with your own eyes. I have. I have also talked to the people there and heard how the "operation" went on.
Yeah did you talk also to those pro Palestinian reporters who were surprised to see the people calling them to take pictures of them in pain and agony and so they go over to some rubble and pretend to be wounded and sh1t? Honest people. So you will trust people who find it allright to lie in these situations because their deceived clerics told them its allright? Don�t be as deceived as they are. Go against the flow dude. Oh hey but don�t believe me... I�d just like to see you come over here after an attack on Jews and me tell you some story about how it went and see if you believe me cause people in these situations are never biased. (Holy crap the sheer volume of sarcasm in this thread is almost stifling )
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Of course they put IED's everywhere they could. They were trying to defend their homes. But they also knew where they were and take the IED's away after the "operations" are over. Something that Israel doesn't do with the unexploded shells they leave behind and that have killed scores of Palestinians.
DEFEND YOUR HOMES BOOBY TRAP THEM OR THE 3V1L 15R3L1 50LD13R5 W1LL F1Nd 0Ur W3Ap0ns!!! So tell me... you have nothing in your house to hide you don�t have weapons or a bomb making plant and you know some soldiers are coming to search your house. Yeah its scary and they will make you sit in a room under guard till they finish but they are looking for weapons that will be later used to kill innocents so you:
A. Do as they say and wait till they find nothing and thank your lucky stars that you weren�t stupid enough to help terrorists and try and kill innocents.
B. Wrestle with them about why they have to come into your home even though you know full well why and you know full well they don�t want to be there any more then you want them there
C. You booby trap your own home with all your possessions and stuff inside so that when these soldiers who are just trying to do their duty and save innocents come in it will blow them up and murder them.
The patented Palestinian house defense system: MURDER! Brilliant!
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
I know you Zionists want to call this a fence. But to us Palestinians it's a wall. Why? Because it is a wall in every village it cuts through and everywhere we have to cross it. It doesn't matter what you call it. It is a wall. It also prevents free movement within our own land. That's the problem. You Zionists would never accept something like that in Israel because of your history. But you can accept it for people with darker skin that you.
It�s a fence because over 98% of it is a fence... I don�t think it could be plainer then that. The wall is in places of strategic importance mostly where there are threats of shootings. Free movement wouldn�t be a problem if you didn�t exploit your previous free movement to kill innocents. This is all pretty simple stuff. Yes you have darker skin that means your closer to the color of dirt so that means your lower then us yes we look down on you down our long noses and smirk at your inferior race. T3h 3v1l j00z w1ll r1s3 aga1n!!!11!! God, your delusions should be written down you could make a movie.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Do you know how long it takes for olive grooves to begin to be profitable? About 20 years. Now how do you expect our people to live the remaining 15 years? That is not taking into account the lost contacts because you can't sell your product anymore.
Okay now you want to get into specifics allright well obviously nowhere was this reported on the news cause hey, Who in the Arab world wants to see or hear about Jews helping Arabs... you would lose your anger that just wouldn�t work. But for those who might have seen the news on it and watched the plantings they would know and have seen that mostly full-to-full grown olive trees were being planted. Consider it a good will gesture... even though the j00s are 3v1l d3v1l ch1ldr3n they do some good every once in a while... wouldn�t hurt you to notice.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Because both were trying to achieve peace. Then you elected the murderous pig Sharon. And he started his Eretz Israel policy that has increased the hardship our people have suffered. That is why we took up our weapons again and restarted the intifada.
Dude that mere fact that your people raised up in a bloody war over some guy going somewhere that is a shared holy site for 2 religious sects is proof enough who was responsible for restarting this stupid thing.
Lets say I build a house and then you build a house next door now lets say after many generations those places become sacred to our separate families however they don�t get along. BUT in the common interest of letting both have access to the place they both respect people of both sides try and lay things aside and enjoy the place together. Now lets say my great great grandchild committed a crime against your family. Sure he is hated but it was 30 years ago and now things are ok... now lets say that same grandchild wants to visit this mutually respected place. Your going to start a family feud over that?! He walks over, looks around, pays respects, and leaves. OH NO T3h 3v1l!!!111!!1!1one111!!1
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Israeli soldiers also target innocent civilians. Israel also choses methods that insure "collateral damage". It's just as inhumane as the extremists tactics. But for some reason the nation that has it as a policy is rewarded while the nation that has a few citizens that do it without any approval is punished.
Dude if you and the rest of the Palestinians believe that horse sh1t its no wonder you justified this crap you pull off and all this hatred. Stop being blinded by that hatred... do a few soldiers have a personal vendetta against Palestinians and have tried to target any of them out of spite? Yes I�m sure they have. But these are deranged people doing the opposite of what they have been trained and taught and brought up to do and feel and act...
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
And I showed you that they lived in peace before 48. And I also showed you why that peace didn't last. You conveniently ignored it like the Zionists usually do with anything that doesn't suite their agenda.
So you showed me how these incidents and others were falsified? Anti-Jewish Riots in 1920-21, which was characterized by the brutal murder in Jaffa of the prominent Jewish author Y. Brenner
'Disturbances' of 1929, which included the massacre of the Jewish community in Hebron
Many incidents of anti-Jewish violence during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 etc etc etc yada yada yada and on and on and on. Nice idea of peace you have there. I don�t think either side lived in complete peace before OR after 1948.
I�m sorry I must have missed that please explain again how these violent acts before 48 weren�t committed.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
I live in Arabia but am a Palestinian. And the "truth" you provide is nothing but a lie perpetuated by the Zionists to prevent anyone from critisising Israel. Because anyone critisising Israel gets labeled an anti-semite just like the Nazis. That method has worked for 60 years but fortunately people are beginning to see through it.
Wait wait.
1. I didn�t call you an anti Semite
2. The nazis criticized Israel and were wrongfully accused of being anti Semites?
3. I called you none of the above but yet you have labeled me as a Zionist in a derogatory manner this whole time in many posts.
4. Hey bud we didn�t take land from Syria Jordan or Egypt they attacked us because they didn�t like j00z man they were being racists and you should be man enough to admit it cause denying it is just plain stupid since all factual evidence throughout history and by their own admission their goal WAS the casting out of the Jews.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
*Snip*
*SMACKDOWN*!
It's another Logic clone. All they do is blame the j000000000000s3 and hate America.
Tisk tisk tisk.
Of course, Logic was a Jew-hater�
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Back to the history books with you.
http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...agreement.html
See where it says Allied Condomonium? That's Palestine and that was what would later be divided between the Zionists and the Palestinians. Of that land you got 70% and we have already signed an agreement accepting that. I think you need to return to your history books. Or did you have any when growing up at all?
The land called Palestine.
Religious and political claims have nothing to do with this. It's about where people and families have lived for thousands of years and are now being denied to create a state there.
Like the ones slaughtered in Hebron for example. And then the attempt to rewrite history to claim that no Jews ever lived there.[/b]
And I'm not saying Israel should be wiped off the map. I've said that several times. I'm saying that we have accepted that Israel will exist outside of the West Bank and Gaza. And that the West Bank and Gaza as well as Eastern Jerusalem should be returned to us so that we can create a state and join the community of free people around the world. Something that Israel has so far denied us and thinks is too much.
They support them because Hamas fights for an independent Palestine. Yes, Hamas is extreme and makes some claims about wanting to throw Israelis into the sea etc but most the people supporting them support them for the resistance in the territories as well as that they fight for independance. Every organisation fighting for an independant Palestine gets our support even if we don't agree with 100% of their actions. Or do you vote only for people you agree 100% with?
[/b]
I'm sure that's what 1930s Europe thought - "What's wrong with a little genocide, the other policies are fine" - and hey, Arafat's family and personal hero Al-Hajj Amin Al-Husseini was a Nazi who spent the war in Berlin encouraging Hitler to please come to the middle east and kill more Jews. So sure, why wouldn't you support a group who openly professes a desire to throw Jews to the sea? Who shoots children seatbelted into baby car seats at point-blank range?
Because both were trying to achieve peace. Then you elected the murderous pig Sharon. And he started his Eretz Israel policy that has increased the hardship our people have suffered. That is why we took up our weapons again and restarted the intifada.
That's rich. Arafat spoke loudly to the Arab world after signing Oslo, proclaiming that this was an opportunity to regroup and attack. He also said "The day will come when you will see thousands of Jews fleeing Palestine. I will not live to see this, but you will definitely see it in your lifetime. The Oslo Accords will help bring this about.’”
He and the PA never recognized Israel's right to exist as required under Oslo, but instead held a meeting where they discussed the matter and vetoed the notion. Then planned war while meeting for Barak met for peace. Sharon was not even in the picture when the intifada was being started up.
And I showed you that they lived in peace before 48. And I also showed you why that peace didn't last. You conveniently ignored it like the Zionists usually do with anything that doesn't suite their agenda.
Sure, in some places. some Arabs got along great. Heck, they even helped the NILI spy against the Turks for the British. However, you can't deny the riots and slaughter and beheadings either, and it appears you're attempting to. Hell, it wasn't the Jews who used my ancestors grave stones for paving streets.
I live in Arabia but am a Palestinian. And the "truth" you provide is nothing but a lie perpetuated by the Zionists to prevent anyone from critisising Israel. Because anyone critisising Israel gets labeled an anti-semite just like the Nazis. That method has worked for 60 years but fortunately people are beginning to see through it.
The Arabs in Palestine allied with the Nazis. They had their representative in Berlin during the war, and they had some Germans who came to Palestine and trained Arabs. The philosophy of eliminating Jews was in Palestine and continued into the PLO charter. It lives in Hamas' declarations and is every bit as venomous today as it was then.
You worry about what Zionists are perpetuating, but would do well to look at what libel is taught in Palestinian schools.
Of course, you could always sing a few verses for us of “Arabs Our Beloved and Jews Our Dogs.” I understand it was a popular song among children in Palestinian schools.
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Abu Bakr,
You may be a Palestinian who accepts the existence of the state of Israel. You also may find yourself very lonely in that position.
Consider: The peace agreement between Egypt was very cold. The agreement between Jordan was very warm. Yet the people of Jordan were not ready to accept it and created laws and market conditions to deny Jews and Israelis services, citizenship, and civil rights. The people as a whole have to be ready to move forward, and peace agreements that take place before people are so motivated are premature and useless.
Until it becomes socially unacceptable to curse Jews or wish to throw them into the sea, socially unacceptable to profess the desire to bomb them, no peace can come, no matter how much land Israel gives. When these fervent wishes to eradicate Jews and Israel are no longer socially approved of and Israel's existence accepted, then peace can come.
The alternative is also true: If Israel gives up and decides to no longer exist, and Jews dive into the sea, then there will be a peace of sorts, if only because there will be no one to make peace with.
The question is, which will happen first: will Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist and move forward, or will they bring about Israel ceasing to exist? For those are the only two avenues for peace. Everything else is, as I said before, premature and prolongs war and suffering.
Oh, and Jordan killed more Palestinians in one month in 1970 than have died in this latest so-called intifada, the war that Palestinians planned while meeting at the peace table.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
No... The people exist... but the name is farce. It was simply chosen because it was the place that Arabs lived in that Britain called Palestine. The British could have called it Barsallalarta and you would now call yourself Barsallalartians.
Wrong. فلسطين (Filasteen) has been the Arabic name for the region since the earlies medieval Arab Geographers. The term was also used by Herodotus.
You have been in this land area for many many years... your specific ancestors... well no one can prove quite precisely where they are from but it is recorded that the sons of Ishmael have always resided in this general area as did the sons of Jacob... plain and simple.
True. But there were tribes living there before the Jews came. But I'm really not so interested in who lived there thousands of years ago. What matters is who lived there at the time Israel was founded. And that was Arabs(Jewish, Muslim, Christian and others). Not Europeans like now.
I would like to see the evidence of those genetic testing. Because I don�t believe that you take a bunch of Jordanians and Palestinians and compare them to Israelis and the Palestinians are closer to Israelis then they are to Jordanians... just looking at them in pictures and on the news you can tell that�s not true.
Looking at them in pictures and on the news? What do you mean? You can visit sites like www.pubmed.com and search for it but here are at least three links for you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8838913
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12743242
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11935342
The colour of ones skin doesn't determine how closely related you are to anyone. Just take a look at the children who have a black and a white parent.
You lost me there... All I'm saying is that�s exactly what people would say Palestinians are doing now... trying to get a place to call home and being a pest about it... except more so since the murder of innocents is slightly more then pesty.
Yes, just like the Zionists did in the beginning of this conflict. A few Palestinians are willing to do the most evil things like blowing themselves up in the middle of a crowded street in Jerusalem. And because of that the rest of us are made to suffer.
Palestinian people live in Israel now and are more then welcome to do so as long as they don�t blow people up yeah. We have pretty much established that both peoples have lived in that region for a very long time and since something about them seems to be so volatile they have to be separated in most cases. So I still don�t see the problem not only do the Palestinians have Jordan but now they want another state and to cut part out of Jerusalem ok fine I can accept that since Jordan has practically disowned them but seriously dude you want a state all you have to do is stop the intefada. It�s pretty damned simple. You stop the violence and what happens people sit, talk, work for peace, and resolving of the conflict happens.
A question. How old are you? Just wondering because of your frequent use of the word dude.
Are you saying that the Palestinians should just pack up and move to Jordan? And how do you expect us to stop the violence when you haven't been able to do it with your US funded war machine? Both sides must stop the violence and you can't expect us to surrender while you continue to violate and rape our people and land. If Israel would withdraw from our land and give us freedom then the violence would stop in a few years pending elections and when people would see that we are free at last. You can't expect to beat us down and expect us to stay down.
that and the area called B zone yeah... however Israel got the much smaller portion since they gave you most of the B zone... are you trying to gain sympathy from us that you lost most your land when anyone with a geography book a map of the divisons and some knowledge of history could tell you that that wasnt true?
There was a reason for it being two different zones. Or are you again suggesting that we should just pack our belongings and leave our ancestral homes? The Arabs living in the B zone got that land. Not us. I can't believe a Jew, with all the history that follows, is suggesting the forced relocation of a whole population to make place for another. Just can't believe it.
Its not called it now it was called that once. So no right now the land is called Israel. Unless you want to argue with every map in the world... actually I wouldn�t be surprised if some maps actually drawn up today still had Palestine written on them... some people really just cant let go of things and grasp facts... (Not you, I�m referring to people who would draw a modern map and actually write Palestine over Israel)
Of course now no one should call Israel Palestine. But the West Bank, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem should be and is called Palestine. But if we are talking about the area before the illegal creation of Israel it should rightly be called Palestine.
Okay so the claims is of families who lived there before... well as has been shown both Jews and Arabs have lived there for dozens of centuries.
Yes, but very few of the current Israelis have lived there for generations while the Arab population has. IIRC something about only 20% of Israelis are actually born in Israel. While the same number for the Palestinians is close to 100%. What does that tell you?
I�m very glad to hear that. Its something that whether you accept or not will not change the fact of its existence... your saying okay you guys exist is supposed to be a bartering tool to get land? Well no duh it exists took Arafat that long to realize that? He REALLY couldn�t let go! Forget Gaza and the west bank let�s talk about east Jerusalem... it was taken from you... unlawfully... and who had it before you? As I recall it has been the capital of Israel for many many many many many years... for as long as Israel has been a state past or present Jerusalem has been its capital and is mentioned hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible. It is mentioned how many times in the Quran? Okay so ignore the religious aspects Jerusalem is your ancestral home? Well it was ours before yours and history proves that so by your reasoning Jerusalem should be Israel�s in its entirety. I agree thank you.
Wrong. Arabs lived there before the Jews arrived. The land was not empty before you came. So using your argument it belongs to us. But my argument is that we can and should share it. You take the western part and we take the eastern part. But that is too much for you.
Oh but being silly is so much fun... its helps relieve tension and other unpleasant affects of smacking ones head into a wall.
But it makes debating with you not worth my time. So please stop being silly.
Well if Mossad killed him then kudos to them. Okay i'll accept your reasoning for calling him a Palestinian even though the origins of his parents are highly debated. No he didn�t choose to stay in Ramallah Israel put him under "house arrest" there. He didn�t have much choice. And he very much cared for his money and not for the starving people around him... seriously a man sitting on billions and some of his people are still starving to death? A good leader? An honorable man? I think not!
Will you be as happy when/if Sharon gets killed? And the origin of Arafat's parents isn't "highly debated" with anyone except some radical Zionists. It's a shame you side with them. Makes having a reasonable debate with you much more difficult.
What does that have to do with what I posted? And I never said you WERE Jordanians I said Jordan was the home created for you by the UN. Only the people IN Jordan are Jordanians.
Again. Are you suggesting we pack our belongings and settle in Jordan?
Yeah killing innocents great resistance... forget the military targets. They could shoot you first before you kill them so go after the people with no defenses the people just living their lives... sure resistance at its ugliest my friend (if it could be called resistance) besides the Palestine they are fighting for isn�t that little place called west bank and Gaza the area they want is anywhere the Jews are so as to make them... not there. Its racism at its best.
You think the resistance only targets innocent civilians? Come visit the occupied territories and see with your own eyes what the resistance is about. Killing innocent civilians in Israel is just as evil as killing innocent civilians in Palestine in my eyes. It's a shame it isn't in yours. And yes, some of our clerics are racists. You think there are none in Israel? Most Palestinians are fighting for their land(West Bank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem). But when you bring the fight to us and kill our children you can be sure some of us will bring the fight to you and kill your children. I hate both acts equally. It's a shame you don't.
Yeah did you talk also to those pro Palestinian reporters who were surprised to see the people calling them to take pictures of them in pain and agony and so they go over to some rubble and pretend to be wounded and sh1t? Honest people. So you will trust people who find it allright to lie in these situations because their deceived clerics told them its allright? Don�t be as deceived as they are. Go against the flow dude. Oh hey but don�t believe me... I�d just like to see you come over here after an attack on Jews and me tell you some story about how it went and see if you believe me cause people in these situations are never biased. (Holy crap the sheer volume of sarcasm in this thread is almost stifling )
Actually people I know and trust let me know. But for some reason it seems like just because they are of a different religion and skin colour you don't trust them. Why is that?
DEFEND YOUR HOMES BOOBY TRAP THEM OR THE 3V1L 15R3L1 50LD13R5 W1LL F1Nd 0Ur W3Ap0ns!!! So tell me... you have nothing in your house to hide you don�t have weapons or a bomb making plant and you know some soldiers are coming to search your house. Yeah its scary and they will make you sit in a room under guard till they finish but they are looking for weapons that will be later used to kill innocents so you:
A. Do as they say and wait till they find nothing and thank your lucky stars that you weren�t stupid enough to help terrorists and try and kill innocents.
B. Wrestle with them about why they have to come into your home even though you know full well why and you know full well they don�t want to be there any more then you want them there
C. You booby trap your own home with all your possessions and stuff inside so that when these soldiers who are just trying to do their duty and save innocents come in it will blow them up and murder them.
The patented Palestinian house defense system: MURDER! Brilliant!
You call killing occupying military forces murder? How many Palestinians have you then murdered?
If you invade our homes you will be punished. And perhaps you should take a look at the "mouse-holes" that the IOF leaves behind after entering houses. Or the countless demolition's of our houses just because you built a settlement so close that you "had" to demolish the house. And unfortunately the IOF and the Israeli politicians only care about the Israeli innocent civilians and don't care about the Palestinian innocent civilians.
It�s a fence because over 98% of it is a fence... I don�t think it could be plainer then that. The wall is in places of strategic importance mostly where there are threats of shootings. Free movement wouldn�t be a problem if you didn�t exploit your previous free movement to kill innocents. This is all pretty simple stuff.
Just because it is a fence somewhere in the middle of the desert it doesn't give you a right to call it a fence when it is a wall in most places we see it. If you wouldn't kill our people we wouldn't need to kill yours. Get out of Palestine and see what happens. Have you ever tried it?
Okay now you want to get into specifics allright well obviously nowhere was this reported on the news cause hey, Who in the Arab world wants to see or hear about Jews helping Arabs... you would lose your anger that just wouldn�t work. But for those who might have seen the news on it and watched the plantings they would know and have seen that mostly full-to-full grown olive trees were being planted. Consider it a good will gesture... even though the j00s are 3v1l d3v1l ch1ldr3n they do some good every once in a while... wouldn�t hurt you to notice.
Full grown olive trees? That's a first but just for fun(and since you are in obvious denial) could you perhaps provide me with a link to that.
Dude that mere fact that your people raised up in a bloody war over some guy going somewhere that is a shared holy site for 2 religious sects is proof enough who was responsible for restarting this stupid thing.
Lets say I build a house and then you build a house next door now lets say after many generations those places become sacred to our separate families however they don�t get along. BUT in the common interest of letting both have access to the place they both respect people of both sides try and lay things aside and enjoy the place together. Now lets say my great great grandchild committed a crime against your family. Sure he is hated but it was 30 years ago and now things are ok... now lets say that same grandchild wants to visit this mutually respected place. Your going to start a family feud over that?! He walks over, looks around, pays respects, and leaves. OH NO T3h 3v1l!!!111!!1!1one111!!1
You don't seem to know the history of the events that led up to the outbreak of the intifada. I shall therefor give you the short version:
After you elected Netanyahu he expanded the settlements, leading to almost a 100% increase in settlers on our land. This was contrary to the spirit of the Oslo accords. Our economy collapsed, our standard of living dropped about 30% and unemployment rose to about 50%. The increase in buffer zones(that were never compensated) was yet more landgrab that violated the spirit of the Oslo accords. Then we got Israeli restrictions on trade and investment as well as restriction on the use of our own water sources. The comments by Zeevi didn't help at all either.
Then in 2000 Sharon, the mass-murderer, went to Al Haram Al Sharif with about 1000 armed body guards. He said that he came in peace but on the site he proclaimed the territory as an eternal Israeli territory.
After that the first riots erupted and several Palestinians were shot dead. Among them was the 12 year old Martyr Muhammad al-Durrah. The slaughter of him was captured on tape and on it you can see his father trying to shelter him and asking the Israeli troops to stop shooting. Muhammad then got shot once in his leg and later got hit by four bullets and died in his fathers arms even if he had been begging for mercy. An ambulance driver trying to reach them also got shot and killed and another one got shot and wounded.
That marked the beginning of the intifada.
Dude if you and the rest of the Palestinians believe that horse sh1t its no wonder you justified this crap you pull off and all this hatred. Stop being blinded by that hatred... do a few soldiers have a personal vendetta against Palestinians and have tried to target any of them out of spite? Yes I�m sure they have. But these are deranged people doing the opposite of what they have been trained and taught and brought up to do and feel and act...
As is the same with the Palestinian clerics who want all Jews to be exterminated and the people that follow them. It's desperation but for some reason Israel is rewarded and showered with money while we Palestinians are starved and slaughtered.
So you showed me how these incidents and others were falsified? Anti-Jewish Riots in 1920-21, which was characterized by the brutal murder in Jaffa of the prominent Jewish author Y. Brenner
'Disturbances' of 1929, which included the massacre of the Jewish community in Hebron
Many incidents of anti-Jewish violence during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 etc etc etc yada yada yada and on and on and on. Nice idea of peace you have there. I don�t think either side lived in complete peace before OR after 1948.
I�m sorry I must have missed that please explain again how these violent acts before 48 weren�t committed.
No, you just didn't understand it. Before means the time that preceded a certain time. And yes, between 1920 and 1948 there were fighting and killings being committed by both sides. But before 48(and more specifically 1920) there was relative peace. The time between 1948 and 1920 was a time when the Palestinian people realised what was happening and were desperate to fight it in any way possible.
Wait wait.
1. I didn�t call you an anti Semite
2. The nazis criticized Israel and were wrongfully accused of being anti Semites?
3. I called you none of the above but yet you have labeled me as a Zionist in a derogatory manner this whole time in many posts.
4. Hey bud we didn�t take land from Syria Jordan or Egypt they attacked us because they didn�t like j00z man they were being racists and you should be man enough to admit it cause denying it is just plain stupid since all factual evidence throughout history and by their own admission their goal WAS the casting out of the Jews.
1. I pre-empted that. And it seems other have called me that here.
2. Bad mistake by me. I meant that people would wrongfully be labeled Nazis/anti-semites. Sorry.
3. Do you support the creation of Israel and the notion of Eretz Israel? If so you are a Zionist.
4. Not the casting out of Jews, but to end the illegal creation of Israel. There were Jews there before and they lived in peace with the other religions. It was not until some foreigners came and declared a state in our own land that the wars broke out.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
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I don't have much time right now so this will be short.
Originally posted by vmarks:
Like the ones slaughtered in Hebron for example. And then the attempt to rewrite history to claim that no Jews ever lived there.
Who has done that? And is that any different from the Zionists attempt to say that no Arabs lived there?
I'm sure that's what 1930s Europe thought - "What's wrong with a little genocide, the other policies are fine" - and hey, Arafat's family and personal hero Al-Hajj Amin Al-Husseini was a Nazi who spent the war in Berlin encouraging Hitler to please come to the middle east and kill more Jews. So sure, why wouldn't you support a group who openly professes a desire to throw Jews to the sea? Who shoots children seatbelted into baby car seats at point-blank range?
You don't have any criminals in Israel? Interesting. And this lame attempt at linking Arafat to Naziism is just that. A lame attempt trying to discredit his name.
That's rich. Arafat spoke loudly to the Arab world after signing Oslo, proclaiming that this was an opportunity to regroup and attack. He also said "The day will come when you will see thousands of Jews fleeing Palestine. I will not live to see this, but you will definitely see it in your lifetime. The Oslo Accords will help bring this about.
And? What's the problem with him trying to win over the radicals by saying this?
He and the PA never recognized Israel's right to exist as required under Oslo, but instead held a meeting where they discussed the matter and vetoed the notion. Then planned war while meeting for Barak met for peace. Sharon was not even in the picture when the intifada was being started up.
They signed the Oslo accords that did recognise Israel's right to exist. More attempts at rewriting history. Let me guess. You're a Zionist?
Sure, in some places. some Arabs got along great. Heck, they even helped the NILI spy against the Turks for the British. However, you can't deny the riots and slaughter and beheadings either, and it appears you're attempting to. Hell, it wasn't the Jews who used my ancestors grave stones for paving streets.
No. But like the Shaw commission said: Before the Balfour declaration there was peace in Palestine. After it the Palestinians saw what was about to happen and fought to keep their land. You didn't even try to counter that. Just some sentimental text that has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.
The Arabs in Palestine allied with the Nazis. They had their representative in Berlin during the war, and they had some Germans who came to Palestine and trained Arabs. The philosophy of eliminating Jews was in Palestine and continued into the PLO charter. It lives in Hamas' declarations and is every bit as venomous today as it was then.
You really believe this? And you guys call me brainwashed?
And so what if the Arabs sided with Nazi Germany? They sided with those who were most likely to give them freedom. Is that a bad thing?
Also. Were there no Jews/Zionists that had contacts with Nazi Germany?:cough: Stern Gang :cough:
You worry about what Zionists are perpetuating, but would do well to look at what libel is taught in Palestinian schools.
Of course, you could always sing a few verses for us of “Arabs Our Beloved and Jews Our Dogs.” I understand it was a popular song among children in Palestinian schools.
You are actually quite funny. Got any more? I could use a good laugh.
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This post will be in 2 segments cause I passed the 20,000 character limit for one post heh. 
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Wrong. فلسطين (Filasteen) has been the Arabic name for the region since the earlies medieval Arab Geographers. The term was also used by Herodotus.
You mean like in the bible the Philistines (sort of off topic but I found it rather degrading that philistine is an English term that often means a person who is guided by materialism and is usually disdainful of intellectual or artistic values someone uninformed in a special area of knowledge.)
Yes at any rate I know of the name back then but people from that region where displaced so many times it would be foolish to say the people living there now are direct descendants. Seems history is repeating itself like after the Israelites exited Egypt and headed for the Promised Land and they had to conquer the Philistines to get it.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
True. But there were tribes living there before the Jews came. But I'm really not so interested in who lived there thousands of years ago. What matters is who lived there at the time Israel was founded. And that was Arabs(Jewish, Muslim, Christian and others). Not Europeans like now.
Okay wait so you don�t care if the Jewish settlers live there now but if there are Europeans among them then that�s not ok? I don�t think that�s what you meant to say.
No the color of ones skin most definitely does not but you were talking about how Palestinians are closer to Jews then Arabs in lets say Jordan or other areas... from what I could understand on those pages (which wasn�t a lot and correct me if I'm wrong) was that it was pointing out similarities in Jews and Arabs and how they are unlike Europeans.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Yes, just like the Zionists did in the beginning of this conflict. A few Palestinians are willing to do the most evil things like blowing themselves up in the middle of a crowded street in Jerusalem. And because of that the rest of us are made to suffer.
I would have to disagree. The rest of you are made to suffer because given the chance on numerous occasions did the Palestinian leadership not only not even try and stop the violence but actually promoted it and therefore the law had to be "taken into our own hands" per sae
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
A question. How old are you? Just wondering because of your frequent use of the word dude.
Hmm I was wondering if you would notice, rereading my posts I realized how often I used "dude" something that grew on me from spending so much times on certain forums *cough* I'm 18.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Are you saying that the Palestinians should just pack up and move to Jordan? And how do you expect us to stop the violence when you haven't been able to do it with your US funded war machine? Both sides must stop the violence and you can't expect us to surrender while you continue to violate and rape our people and land. If Israel would withdraw from our land and give us freedom then the violence would stop in a few years pending elections and when people would see that we are free at last. You can't expect to beat us down and expect us to stay down.
No that time is past... my point was that Jordan was created so that those of the Palestinian population who didn�t want to live with Jews or didn�t like Jews or whatever didn�t have to live near them they could if they chose move to Jordan so that there would be no conflict of peoples however if they decided to stay there was no promise they would gain citizenship in the new state. So I mean those who had a problem with Israel being there where there homes are what should I tell you? I can understand why they didn�t want to live in Israel or be with Jews or anything and I can understand why they wouldn�t want to leave their home... so you got some people who stayed in Israel who really didn�t mind causing trouble because of the whole mess of the creation of Israel. What am I going to tell you? That those people should have abandoned their homes because they had no intentions of living in peace with Israel? No dude that�s not right it�s not their fault they were there. Should they have stayed anyway and caused trouble cause they didn�t like Israel and they didn�t have any promise of getting citizenship or getting work permits or whatever? No that�s not right either. There is no easy way to work out what should have been done back then. Its just one of those lose-lose situations.
We expected the temp government to stand up for itself... it would have had Israel�s backing and we expected the populace not to support the terrorists and not harbor and embed them in their houses and such. You can�t stop terrorist if the populace supports them. The population should support a peaceful means of reaching a free Palestine. Not the slaughter of children by terrorist fanatics... even if they don�t support that specific aspect of those groups acts, they still support the groups and therefore the groups are not likely to stop till that changes... its almost as if the Palestinian people have said ok we don�t want to wait any longer so if we can use these terrorist methods as a means to an end of getting our state even if we don�t support who they murder a lot of the time... so be it.
Who am I asking to surrender? I said the good Palestinian people who just want a state should stand up and fight for that right a fight against the terrorists who are impeding any hopes of that dream becoming a reality. If they did that you can be guaranteed they would have US and Israeli backing even militarily supplying weapons and finances.
So we pull out of the territories meanwhile as usual the terrorists keep attacking because they want the destruction of Israel and after a few years the rest of the Palestinians will realize they are free and THEN they will stand up to those extremists... yeah how many people will die waiting around for a few years? How many mother fathers� brothers� sisters daughters sons? Imagine the scenario reversed you are asked to wait for 2 years as you are under attack without retaliating without any hindrance to the terrorists save the checkpoints and security guards inside our own borders. As you watch daily as hundreds of you civilians are murdered... seriously that�s not right. You are a smart guy I can read that in your posts you don�t support the killings on either side you are moderate and you have your head on straight. You can�t seriously believe that that is a reasonable request.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
There was a reason for it being two different zones. Or are you again suggesting that we should just pack our belongings and leave our ancestral homes? The Arabs living in the B zone got that land. Not us. I can't believe a Jew, with all the history that follows, is suggesting the forced relocation of a whole population to make place for another. Just can't believe it.
No dude. Like said up there it�s was a crazy complicated situation. The Palestinians who were willing to stay and liked the "company" or "neighbors" moving in stayed and they didn�t cause trouble and that was fine. Then there were those who didn�t like their new "neighbors" and left moved to where they were provided a place in Jordan and then there were those who didn�t like the new "neighbors" who understandably (I cant stress that enough I would be unable to make this decision myself) didn�t want to live with the "new people" but also didn�t want to leave their homes. Therefore there was tension and unpleasant "vibes" if you will... and it didn�t help that some of the Jews of that time (and still some today) wanted the land only to themselves and made trouble for the ones who stayed. I never suggested forced relocation.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Of course now no one should call Israel Palestine.
Correct.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
But the West Bank, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem should be and is called Palestine.
Well it�s not that currently especially not east Jerusalem. It can be called the occupied territories... but calling it Palestine is slightly premature.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
But if we are talking about the area before the illegal creation of Israel it should rightly be called Palestine.
Correct.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Yes, but very few of the current Israelis have lived there for generations while the Arab population has. IIRC something about only 20% of Israelis are actually born in Israel. While the same number for the Palestinians is close to 100%. What does that tell you?
Okay we were talking about ancestral claims but yes most the Jews in Israel now are still from outside the country myself I was born in the US but I would die tonight defending my home here. Doesn�t matter that I was born somewhere else... the love of the Jews for Israel has never been forgotten. They always remembered even after they were exiled from there. They always knew they would be going back home. "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget her cunning."
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Wrong. Arabs lived there before the Jews arrived. The land was not empty before you came. So using your argument it belongs to us. But my argument is that we can and should share it. You take the western part and we take the eastern part. But that is too much for you.
I wasn�t talking about the land we were talking about who had Jerusalem before. Are you denying the historical proof evidence and facts that Jerusalem was the historical capital of the Jews and the nation of Israel? Jerusalem can be shared and under Israeli rule was being shared Muslims Christians and Jews were all worshiping there with perfect freedom I don�t see the problem. The point is that Jerusalem was the Jewish capital for centuries and the holiest place for Jews and I guarantee you they will not let that change... that�s like asking you to share Mecca. Make it half Israel�s... just wont happen.
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
But it makes debating with you not worth my time. So please stop being silly.
Okay... that didn�t come across right... I was being sarcastic.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Will you be as happy when/if Sharon gets killed? And the origin of Arafat's parents isn't "highly debated" with anyone except some radical Zionists. It's a shame you side with them. Makes having a reasonable debate with you much more difficult.
Well depends If he does more things like those crimes he was convicted of then yes I would not mourn his passing but if he can show that he is ready to make peace with the Palestinians with the new leader they provide (assuming he is willing to make peace) then I will think he changed. I will still despise what he did in the past but people do change... unfortunately it wasn�t the case for Arafat.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Again. Are you suggesting we pack our belongings and settle in Jordan?
Again, no.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
You think the resistance only targets innocent civilians? Come visit the occupied territories and see with your own eyes what the resistance is about. Killing innocent civilians in Israel is just as evil as killing innocent civilians in Palestine in my eyes. It's a shame it isn't in yours. And yes, some of our clerics are racists. You think there are none in Israel? Most Palestinians are fighting for their land(West Bank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem). But when you bring the fight to us and kill our children you can be sure some of us will bring the fight to you and kill your children. I hate both acts equally. It's a shame you don't.
I think the terrorists mostly do. I completely agree. Wherever civilians are killed it is a grievous act however the motives behind the killing can be judged not for leniency on the severity of the act but on the person. In war sometimes soldiers shoot innocent people accidentally... it does happen. I will be going into Israeli military service as a combat soldier in January this year Abu. And I will swear to you here and now if a civilian is killed at my hands it will be a mistake. If an order is given that violates that promise you have my word I will violate that order. And you have no idea how many hundreds of thousands of Israeli youth serving in the IDF feel the same. My point in this is also that the terrorists don�t do the same they are praised and honored the more people they kill civilians military targets whomever, it doesn�t matter to them. And that�s why the acts are still as bad on each side but the people behind the acts may not be.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Actually people I know and trust let me know. But for some reason it seems like just because they are of a different religion and skin colour you don't trust them. Why is that?
I could care less what religion or race they are. To put it bluntly if they have a reputation and a history of being more then willing to lie and falsify circumstances around a news report to gain more sympathy and with the overwhelming evidence against the claims made in Jenin... yeah I�m not going to believe them. Okay you have your trusted sources I have my own flesh and blood brother who was there. He didn�t even fire his weapons once in all his three years in the military and 5 months reserve duty he has done so far. I would tend to believe my brother over some other random guys (not your friends necessarily) who have a history of laying a deception.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
You call killing occupying military forces murder? How many Palestinians have you then murdered?
Palestinians have an occupying military force somewhere?
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
If you invade our homes you will be punished. And perhaps you should take a look at the "mouse-holes" that the IOF leaves behind after entering houses. Or the countless demolition's of our houses just because you built a settlement so close that you "had" to demolish the house. And unfortunately the IOF and the Israeli politicians only care about the Israeli innocent civilians and don't care about the Palestinian innocent civilians.
So the police are coming to search your house for drugs so you booby trap it to blow them up cause you don�t like them searching your house even if you have nothing to hide. Look Israel wouldn�t have to be making these searches and invading private homes if the private homes weren�t utilized so often for storing weapons that are used against civilians. Plain and simple. Mouse-holes? You mean bullet holes? So a guy is shooting from a house and the army wants to shoot back but oh no wait! He�s in a house so you cant shoot at him you may damage the walls! The demolition of houses or of convicted terrorists. Having your house knocked down sucks don�t it? Almost as bad as having your mother blown up on a bus. As I said before the Israelis don�t care about Palestinian civilians which is why instead of bombing the sh1t out of Jenin and saving the 23 soldiers and getting every single terrorist in that camp they instead went in on foot house to house. And that�s why they compensated those few Palestinians whose lands were hindered by the security fence. You know... cause they really don�t care.
Jan 5 '03 - An Israeli soldier gives first aid to a Palestinian man having an epileptic seizure at a checkpoint in Hebron. (Reuters photo)
July 27 '03 - An Israeli soldier and a Palestinian help to carry a disabled Palestinian through the Ein Arik checkpoint near Ramallah. (AP photo)
Nov 26 '03 - Palestinian children looks at an Israeli soldier treats a Palestinian boy who fell down while playing with his friends. (AFP photo)
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Just because it is a fence somewhere in the middle of the desert it doesn't give you a right to call it a fence when it is a wall in most places we see it. If you wouldn't kill our people we wouldn't need to kill yours. Get out of Palestine and see what happens. Have you ever tried it?
Ugh chicken and the egg. We will never agree.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Full grown olive trees? That's a first but just for fun(and since you are in obvious denial) could you perhaps provide me with a link to that.
Well unless someone taped the report then no I cannot show you. I could play the video on my screen and take a screen shot of them showing the soldiers plating the trees... but you could just say that is anyone plating the tree anywhere... well its better then nothing. I got the link for that vid off kazaa I think if you search for something about the wall you may find it.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
You don't seem to know the history of the events that led up to the outbreak of the intifada. I shall therefor give you the short version:
After you elected Netanyahu he expanded the settlements, leading to almost a 100% increase in settlers on our land. This was contrary to the spirit of the Oslo accords. Our economy collapsed, our standard of living dropped about 30% and unemployment rose to about 50%. The increase in buffer zones(that were never compensated) was yet more landgrab that violated the spirit of the Oslo accords. Then we got Israeli restrictions on trade and investment as well as restriction on the use of our own water sources. The comments by Zeevi didn't help at all either.
Then in 2000 Sharon, the mass-murderer, went to Al Haram Al Sharif with about 1000 armed body guards. He said that he came in peace but on the site he proclaimed the territory as an eternal Israeli territory.
I�m not familiar with the Arab names Al Haram Al Sharif but I can assumer you meant he Temple mount... as in the location of the most holy Jewish site. So I can understand him saying that... they don�t place any small importance on that place and I know neither do you. But hey you guys claim that place as an eternal holy Muslim site every day... you don�t see us going to war over it
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
After that the first riots erupted and several Palestinians were shot dead. Among them was the 12 year old Martyr Muhammad al-Durrah. The slaughter of him was captured on tape and on it you can see his father trying to shelter him and asking the Israeli troops to stop shooting. Muhammad then got shot once in his leg and later got hit by four bullets and died in his fathers arms even if he had been begging for mercy. An ambulance driver trying to reach them also got shot and killed and another one got shot and wounded.
That marked the beginning of the intifada.
Dude that�s a horrible story. And very well might be true. Sigh. Anyway this is a small part of what I know. http://www.honestreporting.com/artic...ted_it_All.asp
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
As is the same with the Palestinian clerics who want all Jews to be exterminated and the people that follow them. It's desperation but for some reason Israel is rewarded and showered with money while we Palestinians are starved and slaughtered.
You can thank Arafat for the starvation part and the intefada for the slaughtering.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
No, you just didn't understand it. Before means the time that preceded a certain time. And yes, between 1920 and 1948 there were fighting and killings being committed by both sides. But before 48(and more specifically 1920) there was relative peace. The time between 1948 and 1920 was a time when the Palestinian people realised what was happening and were desperate to fight it in any way possible.
Okay. You didn�t specify before 1920 last time you specified before 1948... actually the question presented to you specified before 1948 therefore I assumed your reply referred to before 1948 not just before 1920.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
1. I pre-empted that. And it seems other have called me that here.
2. Bad mistake by me. I meant that people would wrongfully be labeled Nazis/anti-semites. Sorry.
3. Do you support the creation of Israel and the notion of Eretz Israel? If so you are a Zionist.
4. Not the casting out of Jews, but to end the illegal creation of Israel. There were Jews there before and they lived in peace with the other religions. It was not until some foreigners came and declared a state in our own land that the wars broke out.
1.I wouldn�t call you an anti Semite. You value life you have shown that. You respect Israel and don�t want to see her destroyed.
2. Ok I see.
3. Yes the recreation of the state of Israel I believe was a great thing... the manner in which it was done left much to be desired though. The notion of Eretz Israel? As in the land that will stretch form the Sinai to the Euphrates or something like that? If you mean that then do you mean do I believe it is right or do I simply believe it will happen whether my personal beliefs and morals think its right or not.
4. Look the state was already created to end the illegal creation of Israel at that point would have been the casting out and eradication of the Jews if they had won the wars...
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Originally posted by Splinter:
This post will be in 2 segments cause I passed the 20,000 character limit for one post heh.
Are you planning on being a politician? You use as many words as they to describe things
You mean like in the bible the Philistines (sort of off topic but I found it rather degrading that philistine is an English term that often means a person who is guided by materialism and is usually disdainful of intellectual or artistic values someone uninformed in a special area of knowledge.)
Yes at any rate I know of the name back then but people from that region where displaced so many times it would be foolish to say the people living there now are direct descendants. Seems history is repeating itself like after the Israelites exited Egypt and headed for the Promised Land and they had to conquer the Philistines to get it.
Yes, i.e. in the Bible. And other literature from centuries back. And isn't that argument of your sort of an argument against the foundation of Israel? Because of the areas history that has probably happened to everyone who lived there once in the past.
Okay wait so you don�t care if the Jewish settlers live there now but if there are Europeans among them then that�s not ok? I don�t think that�s what you meant to say.
That's what I meant to say. The Arab Jews lived there in peace with others before the establishment of Israel. After that foreigners have come and started building settlements on our land. Every single settlement(even the smallest ones) put my people through further hardship because of restrictions that follow and damage to our land. Not to mention the fact that foreigners are building towns in our own land. The land my people have lived in for centuries. And for some reason they stay Israeli citizens while the people living next door aren't. That is no way to act for a "democracy".
No the color of ones skin most definitely does not but you were talking about how Palestinians are closer to Jews then Arabs in lets say Jordan or other areas... from what I could understand on those pages (which wasn�t a lot and correct me if I'm wrong) was that it was pointing out similarities in Jews and Arabs and how they are unlike Europeans.
They showed that Palestinians and Arab Jews are much closer related than they are related to Europeans(includes European Jews) and Arabs.
I would have to disagree. The rest of you are made to suffer because given the chance on numerous occasions did the Palestinian leadership not only not even try and stop the violence but actually promoted it and therefore the law had to be "taken into our own hands" per sae
The Palestinian leadership has had to fight two battles. One with Israel and the US to get our basic human rights(nationality, right of return, control over our land etc) and to keep the extremists "friendly" to not let hem take control. To do that they have to appeal to them a bit because if they didn't the extremists would probably just take control of the situation and if they did that no peace would be achieved to the end of time. Unfortunately both Israel and the US has played into the extremists hands and made the work of Arafat much more difficult.
Hmm I was wondering if you would notice, rereading my posts I realized how often I used "dude" something that grew on me from spending so much times on certain forums *cough* I'm 18.
No problem. My life has shown me how important it is to speak in a "proper" manner so I try to share that with today's youth and try to remind them of that. Though I'm in no way perfect in that regard.
No that time is past... my point was that Jordan was created so that those of the Palestinian population who didn�t want to live with Jews or didn�t like Jews or whatever didn�t have to live near them they could if they chose move to Jordan so that there would be no conflict of peoples however if they decided to stay there was no promise they would gain citizenship in the new state. So I mean those who had a problem with Israel being there where there homes are what should I tell you? I can understand why they didn�t want to live in Israel or be with Jews or anything and I can understand why they wouldn�t want to leave their home... so you got some people who stayed in Israel who really didn�t mind causing trouble because of the whole mess of the creation of Israel. What am I going to tell you? That those people should have abandoned their homes because they had no intentions of living in peace with Israel? No dude that�s not right it�s not their fault they were there. Should they have stayed anyway and caused trouble cause they didn�t like Israel and they didn�t have any promise of getting citizenship or getting work permits or whatever? No that�s not right either. There is no easy way to work out what should have been done back then. Its just one of those lose-lose situations.
Yes. Unfortunately the whole creation of Israel, as it was done, was a lose-lose situation. Several Jews saw that and tried to stop it, as well as both the Brits and Arabs. Unfortunately the Zionist lobby was too powerful.
We expected the temp government to stand up for itself... it would have had Israel�s backing and we expected the populace not to support the terrorists and not harbor and embed them in their houses and such. You can�t stop terrorist if the populace supports them. The population should support a peaceful means of reaching a free Palestine. Not the slaughter of children by terrorist fanatics... even if they don�t support that specific aspect of those groups acts, they still support the groups and therefore the groups are not likely to stop till that changes... its almost as if the Palestinian people have said ok we don�t want to wait any longer so if we can use these terrorist methods as a means to an end of getting our state even if we don�t support who they murder a lot of the time... so be it.
Very few "house" known terrorists. Many do on the other hand house the true resistance fighters. Why you might ask? Because that is the only way of making sure that if your house gets demolished you will be helped. Israel demolishes houses as they wish(in and of itself a crime of war) without helping the victims. It's no only houses where they have found freedom fighters and terrorists. It's whatever they want. They build new settlements and decide that certain houses are too close so they must be demolished. And most of the suicide bombers that go into Israel to finish their mission are unknown to their families. Meaning that the family often doesn't know that they are going to blow themselves up. And even then their houses gets demolished. And again. How is Palestine supposed to eliminate all terrorists and insurgents when Israel with it's well funded war machine hasn't been able to do that for soon to be 60 years?
Who am I asking to surrender? I said the good Palestinian people who just want a state should stand up and fight for that right a fight against the terrorists who are impeding any hopes of that dream becoming a reality. If they did that you can be guaranteed they would have US and Israeli backing even militarily supplying weapons and finances.
Again. How are we supposed to do that when Israel hasn't been able to do that for the past almost 60 years? Should we take out our slingshots and stones and try to find them? You think that would be more effective than the Israeli war machine? The only way to defeat the hate that is rampant in both our countries is to make sure we are equals with equal rights and possibilities in life. So far Israel has decreased our chances of that instead of increased that.
So we pull out of the territories meanwhile as usual the terrorists keep attacking because they want the destruction of Israel and after a few years the rest of the Palestinians will realize they are free and THEN they will stand up to those extremists... yeah how many people will die waiting around for a few years? How many mother fathers� brothers� sisters daughters sons? Imagine the scenario reversed you are asked to wait for 2 years as you are under attack without retaliating without any hindrance to the terrorists save the checkpoints and security guards inside our own borders. As you watch daily as hundreds of you civilians are murdered... seriously that�s not right. You are a smart guy I can read that in your posts you don�t support the killings on either side you are moderate and you have your head on straight. You can�t seriously believe that that is a reasonable request.
You misunderstood me and/or I didn't elaborate enough. If you retreat from the territories and build your wall/fence(whatever you like to call it) on the border from 49. And you could also just completely close the border for some years. You could do everything you do now except not inside our land. You could even go further than you do now but stay out of our land. If you'd do that the Palestinian people would start to see that their future is in their own hands and we would be able to build up a powerful society on our own. After having been able to fight Israel for 60 years I'm absolutely sure we could do that. No one is asking you to surrender. But only to withdraw from the occupied areas and allow us to start rebuilding our nation. If you'd do that less young kids would see any benefit in going to blow themselves up in you land. And that would result in less reason for you to continue the terrible treatment of our people. That would be a different cycle than our two nations are now in.
No dude. Like said up there it�s was a crazy complicated situation. The Palestinians who were willing to stay and liked the "company" or "neighbors" moving in stayed and they didn�t cause trouble and that was fine. Then there were those who didn�t like their new "neighbors" and left moved to where they were provided a place in Jordan and then there were those who didn�t like the new "neighbors" who understandably (I cant stress that enough I would be unable to make this decision myself) didn�t want to live with the "new people" but also didn�t want to leave their homes. Therefore there was tension and unpleasant "vibes" if you will... and it didn�t help that some of the Jews of that time (and still some today) wanted the land only to themselves and made trouble for the ones who stayed. I never suggested forced relocation.
OK. It's good to hear because it is often that I hear something different from Israelis. Again, we get back to the lose-lose situation of the illegal creation of Israel. Unfortunately many saw that would happen but were ignored.
Well it�s not that currently especially not east Jerusalem. It can be called the occupied territories... but calling it Palestine is slightly premature.
Absolutely not. It was Palestine before the creation of Israel and it will remain Palestine for the rest of history. Unless Israel gives us full rights as "Israelis". Only then will you be able to call it Israel.
Okay we were talking about ancestral claims but yes most the Jews in Israel now are still from outside the country myself I was born in the US but I would die tonight defending my home here. Doesn�t matter that I was born somewhere else... the love of the Jews for Israel has never been forgotten. They always remembered even after they were exiled from there. They always knew they would be going back home. "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget her cunning."
Of course. And there is(sort of) nothing wrong with that. But the way it was done only invited trouble and many saw that happening. Jews before that didn't view themselves as foreigners in the same sense as many do today. People in other countries didn't view Jews as foreigners as they did today. If this(the creation of Israel) would have been done differently we would perhaps be sitting together in Al Quds having a cup of tea together instead of the situation as it is today were I had to leave Palestine to make some money to send back to my family. There were many that saw what would come and unfortunately they were ignored because of how guilty Europeans felt after WWII.
I wasn�t talking about the land we were talking about who had Jerusalem before. Are you denying the historical proof evidence and facts that Jerusalem was the historical capital of the Jews and the nation of Israel? Jerusalem can be shared and under Israeli rule was being shared Muslims Christians and Jews were all worshiping there with perfect freedom I don�t see the problem. The point is that Jerusalem was the Jewish capital for centuries and the holiest place for Jews and I guarantee you they will not let that change... that�s like asking you to share Mecca. Make it half Israel�s... just wont happen.
There is no perfect freedom in Al Quds. People are being restricted access to the Temple Mount based on their religion.
And lastly I want to ask you a question to see how deep your knowledge of the Temple Mount is. In what shape was it when the Muslims took control of Al Quds and what was amongst the first things they did?
But I'll add one thing. It shows that there is still hope that two persons, one from Israel and one from Palestine, are able to discuss this in a respectful manner. Even if it's just through the internet. Let us not destroy that little hope that is left.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
How is Palestine supposed to eliminate all terrorists and insurgents when Israel with it's well funded war machine hasn't been able to do that for soon to be 60 years?
Funny, you seem to be able to hunt down and kill the Palestinians who help Israel, stoning them or hanging in the center squares - and then add them to inflate the Palestinian death toll further.
And lastly I want to ask you a question to see how deep your knowledge of the Temple Mount is. In what shape was it when the Muslims took control of Al Quds and what was amongst the first things they did?
And what shape was it in when Israel took it back? What we found was that everything was in a state of disrepair, and that you had desecrated the Temple wall with hovels and defecation. Of course, the Palestinian propaganda machine educates children to believe there was never a temple there.
But I'll add one thing. It shows that there is still hope that two persons, one from Israel and one from Palestine, are able to discuss this in a respectful manner. Even if it's just through the internet. Let us not destroy that little hope that is left.
Peace can only come when Palestinians give up the hope of eradicating Israel. Your vaunted Arafat only prolonged war, because he said Haifa and Jaffa were more important to him than establishing a Palestinian state.
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Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Are you planning on being a politician? You use as many words as they to describe things
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Yes, i.e. in the Bible. And other literature from centuries back. And isn't that argument of your sort of an argument against the foundation of Israel? Because of the areas history that has probably happened to everyone who lived there once in the past.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you asking if that doesn�t also apply to Israel how can they claim to be direct descendants of those who lived here when it was ancient Israel?
If that�s what you mean then you are very right there is no way to be 100% sure but it is very well known that the Jews were always centralized in and around Israel until after they were dispersed throughout Europe and other places and in very much the same way as is done today they make sure their children know exactly where they came from you know make sure they know the ancient traditions stuff like that was what they did in the "Diaspora" if you will. And so most the Jews today come from families who never really lost track of whether their family came directly from Israel or not I mean there is hardly a Jew in the world whose family back then didn�t reside in Israel.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
That's what I meant to say. The Arab Jews lived there in peace with others before the establishment of Israel. After that foreigners have come and started building settlements on our land. Every single settlement(even the smallest ones) put my people through further hardship because of restrictions that follow and damage to our land. Not to mention the fact that foreigners are building towns in our own land. The land my people have lived in for centuries. And for some reason they stay Israeli citizens while the people living next door aren't. That is no way to act for a "democracy".
Well you call the foreigners now but a few centuries ago their families were living there to... the people next door weren�t part of ancient Israel or their families most likely weren�t. And so those coming from abroad get citizenship because they are Jews and their families used to live there. But hey I have many many non-Jewish friends who have made aliyah and are citizens here.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
They showed that Palestinians and Arab Jews are much closer related than they are related to Europeans(includes European Jews) and Arabs.
If it�s not too much trouble could you show me what parts of those links mean that Palestinians are closer to Israelis then to other Arabs?
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
The Palestinian leadership has had to fight two battles. One with Israel and the US to get our basic human rights(nationality, right of return, control over our land etc) and to keep the extremists "friendly" to not let hem take control. To do that they have to appeal to them a bit because if they didn't the extremists would probably just take control of the situation and if they did that no peace would be achieved to the end of time. Unfortunately both Israel and the US has played into the extremists hands and made the work of Arafat much more difficult.
Well I don�t believe Arafat did what he should have done for the Palestinian people. Trying to keep the extremists "friendly" is just giving in to them. You need to fight them... if the PA really wanted to fight them like I said they know they could get military support form both the US Israel even the UN or something.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
No problem. My life has shown me how important it is to speak in a "proper" manner so I try to share that with today's youth and try to remind them of that. Though I'm in no way perfect in that regard.
Heh. Yeah I use dude when I'm typing online mainly cause it makes for a less formal thing it makes the atmosphere, for me at least, seem a bit more relaxed.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Yes. Unfortunately the whole creation of Israel, as it was done, was a lose-lose situation. Several Jews saw that and tried to stop it, as well as both the Brits and Arabs. Unfortunately the Zionist lobby was too powerful.
Well it was only a lose-lose for the native inhabitants at the time that weren�t part of Israel... for Israel herself and the Jews it was a very good thing.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Very few "house" known terrorists. Many do on the other hand house the true resistance fighters. Why you might ask? Because that is the only way of making sure that if your house gets demolished you will be helped. Israel demolishes houses as they wish(in and of itself a crime of war) without helping the victims. It's no only houses where they have found freedom fighters and terrorists. It's whatever they want. They build new settlements and decide that certain houses are too close so they must be demolished. And most of the suicide bombers that go into Israel to finish their mission are unknown to their families. Meaning that the family often doesn't know that they are going to blow themselves up. And even then their houses gets demolished. And again. How is Palestine supposed to eliminate all terrorists and insurgents when Israel with it's well funded war machine hasn't been able to do that for soon to be 60 years?
I knew about the demolitions for houses of the terrorists but not for just settlements but hey that wouldn�t surprise me... allot of time people pass stupid ideas on both sides. But to be sure do you have any links?
Yeah that family may not know ahead of time but then they are interviewed on TV praising him for taking the lives of those people.
Well we already know the PA will get support if they ask for it... even before the Intefada Israel started training and supplying the PA forces... unfortunately many of them started using that stuff against Israel by selling it to terrorists or using it themselves... 
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Again. How are we supposed to do that when Israel hasn't been able to do that for the past almost 60 years? Should we take out our slingshots and stones and try to find them? You think that would be more effective than the Israeli war machine? The only way to defeat the hate that is rampant in both our countries is to make sure we are equals with equal rights and possibilities in life. So far Israel has decreased our chances of that instead of increased that.
I still say this is chicken and egg stuff...
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
You misunderstood me and/or I didn't elaborate enough. If you retreat from the territories and build your wall/fence(whatever you like to call it) on the border from 49. And you could also just completely close the border for some years. You could do everything you do now except not inside our land. You could even go further than you do now but stay out of our land. If you'd do that the Palestinian people would start to see that their future is in their own hands and we would be able to build up a powerful society on our own. After having been able to fight Israel for 60 years I'm absolutely sure we could do that. No one is asking you to surrender. But only to withdraw from the occupied areas and allow us to start rebuilding our nation. If you'd do that less young kids would see any benefit in going to blow themselves up in you land. And that would result in less reason for you to continue the terrible treatment of our people. That would be a different cycle than our two nations are now in.
The problem being the current settlements... they are there and many have been there longer then the creation of this state itself. To remove them is a very... hmm, delicate situation that will take time if it is done at all. After that Israel can safely move the wall back but to do it before that is to practically condemn every one of the families there to death.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
OK. It's good to hear because it is often that I hear something different from Israelis. Again, we get back to the lose-lose situation of the illegal creation of Israel. Unfortunately many saw that would happen but were ignored.
Yeah... but I don�t want you or anyone one else in this forum to get me wrong. I still think that the creation of Israel was a good and right thing to do... its the circumstances around it that are the big issue and that I wish something else had been done about them.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Absolutely not. It was Palestine before the creation of Israel and it will remain Palestine for the rest of history. Unless Israel gives us full rights as "Israelis". Only then will you be able to call it Israel.
Really right now we are debating semantics but Palestine is the name of a state the area of the West Bank and Gaza strip are currently not a state, which is why they are called by their locations and or the occupied territories. I would disagree that they should be called Palestine now but that is really not an area of important contention to begin with so I will agree to disagree if you will.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Of course. And there is(sort of) nothing wrong with that. But the way it was done only invited trouble and many saw that happening. Jews before that didn't view themselves as foreigners in the same sense as many do today. People in other countries didn't view Jews as foreigners as they did today. If this(the creation of Israel) would have been done differently we would perhaps be sitting together in Al Quds having a cup of tea together instead of the situation as it is today were I had to leave Palestine to make some money to send back to my family. There were many that saw what would come and unfortunately they were ignored because of how guilty Europeans felt after WWII.
This is the part we agree on.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
There is no perfect freedom in Al Quds. People are being restricted access to the Temple Mount based on their religion.
Yes now they are. Like on what was it? Ramadan maybe any Muslims under the age of 45 was forbidden to go there and pray for fear of a violent outburst... which they had an historical basis to be wary of however its still a restriction. But before the Intefada and after Jerusalem was Liberated from Jordan There was quite free access there.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
And lastly I want to ask you a question to see how deep your knowledge of the Temple Mount is. In what shape was it when the Muslims took control of Al Quds and what was amongst the first things they did?
My knowledge is not very extensive at all... so I wont lie to you... if you wanted me to answer that it would be based on the first few articles I could find pertaining to the subject on google.
Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
But I'll add one thing. It shows that there is still hope that two persons, one from Israel and one from Palestine, are able to discuss this in a respectful manner. Even if it's just through the internet. Let us not destroy that little hope that is left.
Absolutely. Believe me the discussion between you and I have been more civilized then any of the other discussion I have had with any of these other people. Funny that. An Israeli and Palestinian talking about this calmly while when other people mostly in Europe and such try and talk about it things just go haywire.
I do very much appreciate the way you have helped to carry on this discussion.
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Originally posted by Splinter:
Well depends If he does more things like those crimes he was convicted of then yes I would not mourn his passing but if he can show that he is ready to make peace with the Palestinians with the new leader they provide (assuming he is willing to make peace) then I will think he changed. I will still despise what he did in the past but people do change... unfortunately it wasn�t the case for Arafat.
Arafat did change. But he didn't stop fighting for Palestinians. All the way back to the terror attack at the Olympic games he has condemned attacks on civilians. But he has continued the rhetoric of keeping the pressure on Israel. And that was fully justified.
I think the terrorists mostly do. I completely agree. Wherever civilians are killed it is a grievous act however the motives behind the killing can be judged not for leniency on the severity of the act but on the person. In war sometimes soldiers shoot innocent people accidentally... it does happen. I will be going into Israeli military service as a combat soldier in January this year Abu. And I will swear to you here and now if a civilian is killed at my hands it will be a mistake. If an order is given that violates that promise you have my word I will violate that order. And you have no idea how many hundreds of thousands of Israeli youth serving in the IDF feel the same. My point in this is also that the terrorists don�t do the same they are praised and honored the more people they kill civilians military targets whomever, it doesn�t matter to them. And that�s why the acts are still as bad on each side but the people behind the acts may not be.
That is mostly true but there are those in the IOF that are just as bad as the terrorists on my side. There are those who kill innocents just for fun. And the problem is that we see how the Israelis handle it to me nothing more than whitewash. A few months public service(for Israelis mind you) and to be demoted and then sent back is not a punishment for murder that we see as acceptable. Not while the punishment for Palestinians guilty of the same are killed, their families houses demolished etc etc. As long as we are treated as lesser human beings than the Israelis you will get a fight. And until you hand out punishments to both sides that are equal you will see a fight. Why? Because we want both peoples to be equal.
But it is good to hear that you swear you will follow the laws of war. Just remember to not let the feelings take over your thoughts when the going gets tough.
I could care less what religion or race they are. To put it bluntly if they have a reputation and a history of being more then willing to lie and falsify circumstances around a news report to gain more sympathy and with the overwhelming evidence against the claims made in Jenin... yeah I�m not going to believe them. Okay you have your trusted sources I have my own flesh and blood brother who was there. He didn�t even fire his weapons once in all his three years in the military and 5 months reserve duty he has done so far. I would tend to believe my brother over some other random guys (not your friends necessarily) who have a history of laying a deception.
Fair enough. Also what you consider a massacre might be different from what I view as a massacre, as well as what Europeans and/or Americans view as a massacre. The difference in opinion mostly comes from who is on the receiving end of the "massacre".
Palestinians have an occupying military force somewhere?
No but killing occupying forces is not murder. It's a lawful act protected by the laws of war.
So the police are coming to search your house for drugs so you booby trap it to blow them up cause you don�t like them searching your house even if you have nothing to hide. Look Israel wouldn�t have to be making these searches and invading private homes if the private homes weren�t utilized so often for storing weapons that are used against civilians. Plain and simple. Mouse-holes? You mean bullet holes? So a guy is shooting from a house and the army wants to shoot back but oh no wait! He�s in a house so you cant shoot at him you may damage the walls! The demolition of houses or of convicted terrorists. Having your house knocked down sucks don�t it? Almost as bad as having your mother blown up on a bus. As I said before the Israelis don�t care about Palestinian civilians which is why instead of bombing the sh1t out of Jenin and saving the 23 soldiers and getting every single terrorist in that camp they instead went in on foot house to house. And that�s why they compensated those few Palestinians whose lands were hindered by the security fence. You know... cause they really don�t care.
No. I was talking about the often referred to as mouse holing technique the IOF uses.
Mouseholing
This apparently innocuous term has sinister connotations. It describes one of the most horrific elements of urban warfare in which troops do not enter houses from the front door, for fear of triggering trip wires. Instead they blow holes in side walls, invariably causing numerous civilian casualties. Mouseholing was last seen in the Israeli assault on Jenin where tens of Palestinian residents were killed.
from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...922081,00.html
You can also do a more thorough search if you don't trust the source.
Although this is always good to see it is imperative to remember that this is their duty. This is the duty an occupying force has to uphold and follow. I could also counter with the countless events of people dying in checkpoints or children being born dead or alive in checkpoints because they(or the mother) weren't allowed to pass. That is also common.
But of course it is good to see that there are decent people in the IOF. It just reinforces my belief that there is still hope.
Ugh chicken and the egg. We will never agree.
Probably not but we can try to understand each other POV and by doing that we have made progress. 
Well unless someone taped the report then no I cannot show you. I could play the video on my screen and take a screen shot of them showing the soldiers plating the trees... but you could just say that is anyone plating the tree anywhere... well its better then nothing. I got the link for that vid off kazaa I think if you search for something about the wall you may find it.
I'll see if I find anything about it.
I�m not familiar with the Arab names Al Haram Al Sharif but I can assumer you meant he Temple mount... as in the location of the most holy Jewish site. So I can understand him saying that... they don�t place any small importance on that place and I know neither do you. But hey you guys claim that place as an eternal holy Muslim site every day... you don�t see us going to war over it
I don't? I see you in a daily war over that.
Also. It's a common misunderstanding that just because we claim it to be a Muslim site only Muslims will be allowed there. By claiming it a Muslim site we are making sure all three Abrahamic religions have a place to go. That is the correct understanding of claiming something to be a Muslim site. Well, except Mecca since there is no other religion that holds that to be a sacred place. But the sites in Al Quds belong to all religions. And it wasn't until the Muslims retook it from the Christian crusaders that all three religions were allowed to enter.
Yup, both sides use propaganda as much as they possibly can. It's a shame because in between comes terrible true stories like the one I mentioned and then the other side starts claiming that was a lie as well. A damn shame to say the least.
You can thank Arafat for the starvation part and the intefada for the slaughtering.
In our view we had no other option because we would not only starve but we'd starve to death if it weren't for the intifada. Just like the Israelis we won't just sit down and surrender.
Okay. You didn�t specify before 1920 last time you specified before 1948... actually the question presented to you specified before 1948 therefore I assumed your reply referred to before 1948 not just before 1920.
No problem and I should have been more precise.
1.I wouldn�t call you an anti Semite. You value life you have shown that. You respect Israel and don�t want to see her destroyed.
2. Ok I see.
3. Yes the recreation of the state of Israel I believe was a great thing... the manner in which it was done left much to be desired though. The notion of Eretz Israel? As in the land that will stretch form the Sinai to the Euphrates or something like that? If you mean that then do you mean do I believe it is right or do I simply believe it will happen whether my personal beliefs and morals think its right or not.
4. Look the state was already created to end the illegal creation of Israel at that point would have been the casting out and eradication of the Jews if they had won the wars...
1. Good to hear.
3. A Zionist is one who supports the creation of Israel and wants to restore Eretz Israel in one way or the other.
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Originally posted by vmarks:
Funny, you seem to be able to hunt down and kill the Palestinians who help Israel, stoning them or hanging in the center squares - and then add them to inflate the Palestinian death toll further.
Good one!
And what shape was it in when Israel took it back? What we found was that everything was in a state of disrepair, and that you had desecrated the Temple wall with hovels and defecation. Of course, the Palestinian propaganda machine educates children to believe there was never a temple there.
tsk tsk. That one wasn't as good as the one above. Try again.
Peace can only come when Palestinians give up the hope of eradicating Israel. Your vaunted Arafat only prolonged war, because he said Haifa and Jaffa were more important to him than establishing a Palestinian state.
Almost as good as the first one. Got more?
On second thought. Are you really this hateful and deluded? 
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If Palestinians are expected to negotiate under occupation, then Israel must be expected to negotiate as we resist that occupation.
- Marwan Barghouti -
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Originally posted by vmarks:
[B]Funny, you seem to be able to hunt down and kill the Palestinians who help Israel, stoning them or hanging in the center squares - and then add them to inflate the Palestinian death toll further.
[b]
And what shape was it in when Israel took it back? What we found was that everything was in a state of disrepair, and that you had desecrated the Temple wall with hovels and defecation. Of course, the Palestinian propaganda machine educates children to believe there was never a temple there.
Peace can only come when Palestinians give up the hope of eradicating Israel. Your vaunted Arafat only prolonged war, because he said Haifa and Jaffa were more important to him than establishing a Palestinian state.
And people think the Palestinian educational system is bad? Sheesh, look at all that BS the Israeli system has fed you!
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