[Taliesin]

... in an attack on a military post on israeli soil using a dug tunnel to circumvent the barrier.

During the attack, conducted by about eight militants, two israeli soldiers and two palestinian militants died, while a third israeli soldier was captured and brought into Gaza.

The captured israeli soldier is/was a young tank-gunner.

The militants are members of the armed wing of Hamas, the Popular Resistance Committees and a group calling itself the Army of Islam.

They demanded that Israel releases all palestinian women and children under 18 from israeli prisons, for getting information about the whereabouts of the "missing israeli soldier", which might suggest that the soldier could be already dead.

Israel said it rules out any negotiations and demands the immediate release of the soldier, while the army is amassed at the border to Gaza in preparation for a major groundforce military retaliation-operation.

Since the palestinian militants attacked a military target and no civilians died in colletaral damage, this attack cannot be called terrorism, and can be seen as a legitimate reaction to the weeks and months of targetted killings, shellings and incursions into palestinian territories.

But legitimate as it is, it is also clear that the reaction of Israel will be hard for the palestinians, since the militants can hardly prevent major incursions by the israeli military.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5115890.stm

Taliesin

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Since the palestinian militants attacked a military target and no civilians died in colletaral damage, this attack cannot be called terrorism

No, but since it's an action by the legitimate government of Palestine, it's war.

[vmarks]

Yes, it's an act of war.

But so was every other attack by Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade when Fatah was the ruling party. Now Fatah is reduced to having a minority party elected status and having Abbas as PM.

So now actions by Fatah and Hamas are both acts of war, but the press and Taliein by extension are casting them as "legitimate reaction."

What was interesting and new here was that Taliesin went further than most Palestinians would by acknowledging that this was an attack that took place on Israeli soil. Which admits that there can be such a thing as "Israeli soil."

[Y3a]

I hope the Israeli's kill everyone in Gaza. they should pound them into the ground with a very strong fist! Hamas has been a joke.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Y3a

I hope the Israeli's kill everyone in Gaza. they should pound them into the ground with a very strong fist! Hamas has been a joke.

I'm sure you are getting all excited waiting for the reaction of Israel's military and are already enjoying the prospects of destruction and death...

Taliesin

[Y3a]

Yep! I guess they shouldn't have kidnapped that soldier huh?

[von Wrangell]

Let's hope they can keep him as a prisoner of war. Or maybe declare him as an illegal combatant because of some obscure reason and give him the GTMO treatment. I'm sure both the US and Israel would be happy with that.

[Skeptik]

He has dual nationality (French?) I believe. Now they are going to upset the Europeans at a time when they 'want' their cash handouts.

[Y3a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Let's hope they can keep him as a prisoner of war. Or maybe declare him as an illegal combatant because of some obscure reason and give him the GTMO treatment. I'm sure both the US and Israel would be happy with that.

Well, his head would still be attached, and he would be fed etc.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Yep! I guess they shouldn't have kidnapped that soldier huh?

Why not? Considering the fact that Israel has often rounded up palestinians and imprisoning them, even women and children, it's a good way to try to press some of them free by capturing an israeli soldier.

I would wish the palestinian militants would only do such guerillia-attacks against the israeli army and stop using terrorism against civilians.

The capturing of the soldier though is a clear act of war, but then Israel was already committing acts of war by shelling Gaza, conducting targetted killings with collateral damage and by using economic strangleholds, so...

Strange thing and very interesting is that should palestinian militants indeed stop using terrorism against civilians and instead target only israeli soldiers and military installations and military infrastructure, the israeli military would react much harder against the palestinians as a whole than before...

Taliesin

[Big Mac]

Taliesin, in case you weren't aware, Hamas has certainly not stopped attacking civilians. They've been firing off rockets on towns in southern Israel from Gaza on a continual basis. Even Abbas called for an end to the attacks a week ago. And this tunnel attack was a seriously provocative attack on Israel's security. Why shouldn't they kidnap soldiers, you ask? For one, they shouldn't do it because it's an act of war, as vmarks pointed out. Whether the target is military or civilian, it's still an act of war. The military-civilian distinction makes sense in defining acts of terrorism, and while kidnapping a solider may not be a terrorist act it is an act of war. Come on, Taliesin, you're a reasonable person. There is no reason to defend barbarous acts of evil people who act in the name of an illegitimate cause. I know it's hard for you to repudiate them, but there's no logical reason to try to defend them.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Taliesin, in case you weren't aware, Hamas has certainly not stopped attacking civilians. They've been firing off rockets on towns in southern Israel from Gaza on a continual basis. Even Abbas called for an end to the attacks a week ago. And this tunnel attack was a seriously provocative attack on Israel's security. Why shouldn't they kidnap soldiers, you ask? For one, they shouldn't do it because it's an act of war, as vmarks pointed out. Whether the target is military or civilian, it's still an act of war. The military-civilian distinction makes sense in defining acts of terrorism, and while kidnapping a solider may not be a terrorist act it is an act of war. Come on, Taliesin, you're a reasonable person. There is no reason to defend barbarous acts of evil people who act in the name of an illegitimate cause. I know it's hard for you to repudiate them, but there's no logical reason to try to defend them.

I'm totally aware of Hamas tactics of attacking israeli civilians, be it with suicide-bombings or with rockets, it's part of their doctrine, and they justify it with the notion of taking revenge for palestinian civilians killed by the military actions of Israel regardless if deliberately killed or accidently or through collateral damage. I condemn that doctrine as well as Hamas for believing and acting upon it.

I would like to see the palestinian militants, including Hamas to renounce violence against civilians regardless if Israel kills civilians or not, and to concentrate only on military targets and by this gain the moral high ground which is important for a guerillia-resistance-campaign in order to be successful.

Sure then, the attacks would be acts of war, but as long as the occupation of Gaza, Westbank and East-jerusalem continues and no peace-pact has been signed, the war is already going on and if the palestinan militants only acted against israeli military after the israeli military acted against palestinians, militant or not, it would be a legitimate reaction.

It has to be done reasonable and diplomacy and negotiations should have the priority. That way the palestinians would have a military option and at the same time not be declared as terrorists, which would put the pressure on Israel and the international community to accept the palestinians as equal people..

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Just to underline the reasonability of the incursion by the israeli military aimed at freeing the captured soldier and destroying terrorist-infrastructure (eventhough the capturing of the soldier was clearly not terrorism but an act of war), they destroyed bridges and the only power-station of Gaza cutting off electricity.

Surely electricity and bridges can be used by terrorists, too, oh wait, the capturing of the soldier was not terrorism, ok, let's try again, surely the actors of war can use electricity and bridges so it's only reasonable to take them away from them, nevermind that over a million other people need and use them, I mean hello, this is war afterall, no?

But wait wasn't there something disturbing called the geneva-protocols that prohibit warring parties from destroying infrastructure that is essential for the survival of the civilian population? Yes, yes, and guess what the electricity is driving the waterpumps in Gaza...

The Israeli military said in a statement that the object of the attacks on the bridges late Tuesday and early Wednesday was "to impair the ability of the terrorists to transfer the kidnapped soldier." Knocking down the bridges would cut Gaza in two, Palestinian security officials said.

Early Wednesday, Israeli planes fired at least nine missiles at Gaza's only power station, cutting electricity to much of the
Gaza Strip, Palestinian security officials said. The station's three funtioning turbines and a gasoline reservoir were engulfed in enormous flames that firefighters were unable to control.

The attack raised the specter of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, as water pumps in the strip are powered by electricity.

Israeli military officials said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert approved a "limited operation" for southern Gaza, aimed at "terrorist infrastructure." The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to reporters.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060627/...l_palestinians

Taliesin

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Sure then, the attacks would be acts of war, but as long as the occupation of Gaza, Westbank and East-jerusalem continues and no peace-pact has been signed. . . .

Israel quit Gaza last year, Taliesin. They're being compelled into returning there now because of the attacks, just as Israel was compelled by similar attacks in the years preceding the Six Day War. As for Judea-Samaria, Israel has been making plans to pull out there, too; if not for the election of Hamas that would have happened in short order, regardless of the cost. And finally, concerning Jerusalem, it is the capital of Israel, and even left-wing governments have made it clear Jerusalem will not be divided or relinquished.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Israel quit Gaza last year, Taliesin. They're being compelled into returning there now because of the attacks, just as Israel was compelled by similar attacks in the years preceding the Six Day War. As for Judea-Samaria, Israel has been making plans to pull out there, too; if not for the election of Hamas that would have happened in short order. And finally, concerning Jerusalem, it is capital of Israel, and even left-wing governments have made it clear it Jerusalem not be divided or relinquished.

The retreatment of Gaza was a small and good step, but it would have been way better, had Israel not coupled that retreatment with the already exposed will to use it as a PR-tool in order to keep hold of the fertile and arable parts of the Westbank with the important groundwater-sources. And it would have been also way better would Israel respect the airspace of Gaza and not jet-boom at low heights every day and night through it terrifying the Gazans.

As to Jerusalem, Israel has only rights on West-jerusalem, and it better start realize that it will have to give up East-Jerusalem for a just peace.

Israel is clearly acting unilaterally and using the existing fanatism and terrorism of palestinian militant groups as an excuse to enfringe on palestinian rights. This is obviously dishonest and should not be supported.

There are two people here in conflict and both have as much legitimacy to be there as the other, and that's why a compromise-peace has to be achieved, which would mean a fully souvereign palestinian state in Gaza, Westbank and East-Jerusalem. The jewish settlers in the Westbank should have the option to decide on their own if they want to live in Israel or Palestine.
If they want to live in Palestine then they would have to endure a reduction in the size of the land that every individual possesses and realize that subventions would be not allowed to flow from Israel, so that they have to buy water and electricity according to the normal market-prices that every palestinian has to pay...

Taliesin

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Let's hope they can keep him as a prisoner of war. Or maybe declare him as an illegal combatant because of some obscure reason and give him the GTMO treatment. I'm sure both the US and Israel would be happy with that.

That would be a huge improvement over the usual lynching. So yeah let's hope they do that.

[Sky Captain]

Troops have rolled in since negotiations have failed.
And it was a kidnapping. POWs surrender.
I have PLENTY of POW experience.

[yakkiebah]

Ofcourse it has failed, there is nothing to negotiate over. The guy is already dead.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Just to underline the reasonability of the incursion by the israeli military aimed at freeing the captured soldier and destroying terrorist-infrastructure (eventhough the capturing of the soldier was clearly not terrorism but an act of war), they destroyed bridges and the only power-station of Gaza cutting off electricity.

Surely electricity and bridges can be used by terrorists, too, oh wait, the capturing of the soldier was not terrorism, ok, let's try again, surely the actors of war can use electricity and bridges so it's only reasonable to take them away from them, nevermind that over a million other people need and use them, I mean hello, this is war afterall, no?

But wait wasn't there something disturbing called the geneva-protocols that prohibit warring parties from destroying infrastructure that is essential for the survival of the civilian population? Yes, yes, and guess what the electricity is driving the waterpumps in Gaza...

You know, I reckon the Geneva Convention actually prolongs wars, strange as that may seem. Historically, taking out civilian infrastructure was the quickest way to end hostilities... ...for example, the two nukes on Japan were designed to encourage the civilian population to force their government to give up. It seemed to work.

Now I'm not saying that taking out civilian infrastructure is a good thing, because it isn't. However, war is a crappy business and I'm simply making an observation into the mechanics of it all.

If the Geneva Convention existed before WWII, we'd probably still be fighting it.

[yakkiebah]

Didn't they destroy civilian infrastructure just before the military operation? The guy that got kidnapped was after the Israeli's destroyed terrorist infrastructure(tunnels). No?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

Didn't they destroy civilian infrastructure just before the military operation? The guy that got kidnapped was after the Israeli's destroyed terrorist infrastructure(tunnels). No?

No idea. I lose track of all the muck going on down there.

I'm at the point where I reckon Israel should bulldoze every last building in Palestine. All of them. That'll sort it once and for all. It'll be hard for the terrorist scum to operate if their entire population is living in tents.

[PacHead]

A massive bombardment and invasion of Gaza is what should be done. All terrorists should be expelled from there, Israel can withdraw again and Gaza can remain empty.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Taliesin, in case you weren't aware, Hamas has certainly not stopped attacking civilians. They've been firing off rockets on towns in southern Israel from Gaza on a continual basis. Even Abbas called for an end to the attacks a week ago. And this tunnel attack was a seriously provocative attack on Israel's security. Why shouldn't they kidnap soldiers, you ask? For one, they shouldn't do it because it's an act of war, as vmarks pointed out. Whether the target is military or civilian, it's still an act of war. The military-civilian distinction makes sense in defining acts of terrorism, and while kidnapping a solider may not be a terrorist act it is an act of war. Come on, Taliesin, you're a reasonable person. There is no reason to defend barbarous acts of evil people who act in the name of an illegitimate cause. I know it's hard for you to repudiate them, but there's no logical reason to try to defend them.

Israel declared war on Palestine a long time ago. It's about time they hit back. This is a good first step (as long as they treat the prisoners according to Islam and the GC).

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

It's about time they hit back. GC).

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Two Palestinians were killed and another seven, including a baby, wounded when a grenade accidentally exploded in the southern Gaza Strip.

Family members were playing with a grenade in the town of Khan Yunis when it exploded, killing 23-year-old Qassem Massud and his one-year-old niece, medical and security sources said Wednesday.

All the casualties were members of the same family.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060628...eastunrestgaza

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Israel quit Gaza last year, Taliesin. They're being compelled into returning there now because of the attacks, just as Israel was compelled by similar attacks in the years preceding the Six Day War. As for Judea-Samaria, Israel has been making plans to pull out there, too; if not for the election of Hamas that would have happened in short order, regardless of the cost. And finally, concerning Jerusalem, it is the capital of Israel, and even left-wing governments have made it clear Jerusalem will not be divided or relinquished.

Complete BS and lying. But I've become used to that from your side.

And as for Al Quds. Until you leave the occupied part of it you.... no, not you. You don't even live in Israel IIRC... Israelis will be in a state of war. But that is what you wish. You need someone to take out your built up frustration from WWII on. But as any other villain you take your past sufferings out on someone who can't defend himself nor had anything to do with your earlier suffering.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

(as long as they treat the prisoners according to Islam and the GC).

This means a headchopping or some other act that's normal for those sorts of civilized people.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

The retreatment of Gaza was a small and good step,

In the previous post you made it sound as if there was no Gaza pull-out, but now it's a "small and good step." Why didn't you admit that before?

but it would have been way better, had Israel not coupled that retreatment with the already exposed will to use it as a PR-tool in order to keep hold of the fertile and arable parts of the Westbank with the important groundwater-sources.

It would have been better if we caught the terrorists before 9/11. It would have been better if I had been born rich. It would have been better if Apple had not defected to Intel. But would it be better to give into even more Arabist demands on Israel? No. Israel has been far, far too generous. In 1993 Israel attempted to make a peace with an enemy that had no intention of living in peace, and in the last decade Israel has seen greater casualties than in the previous 45 years of its existence.

And it would have been also way better would Israel respect the airspace of Gaza and not jet-boom at low heights every day and night through it terrifying the Gazans.

If that's true, then they reap a fraction of the terror the sew. Sonic booms don't kill people.

There are two people here in conflict and both have as much legitimacy to be there as the other, and that's why a compromise-peace has to be achieved, which would mean a fully souvereign palestinian state in Gaza, Westbank and East-Jerusalem.

For the sake of argument, let's say Israel capitulated and granted the Arabs everything you're asking for on their behalf. You've already admitted that would not end the conflict because Hamas will only sign on to a hudna. For its painful concessions Israel has fostered only an emboldened enemy who sees his ultimate goal as that much closer to being realized. Based on that precedent, the disaster of Oslo would give way to an utter nightmare if Israel were to carve a new terror state. A terror state that could freely accept all the arms its sister terror states could send its way. A terror state that would launch a new, unprecedented wave of terror and then hide behind state sovereignty. A terror state that, rather than ending the conflict, would ensure its perpetuation toward the final Arab goal of Israel's complete destruction. Unless it wishes to commit suicide, Israel has absolutely no incentive to do such a thing. Countries exist primarily to protect the lives and property of their citizens, and the creation of such a terror state would serve the completely opposite purpose.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Israel declared war on Palestine a long time ago. It's about time they hit back.

There's no such thing as Palestine. But for the sake of argument, when haven't the Arabs been at war with Israel? The Arabs were at war with Israel decades before it declared its independence and were at war ever since then. Only Israel has restrained itself.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Until you leave the occupied part of it you.... Israelis will be in a state of war. But that is what you wish. You need someone to take out your built up frustration from WWII on. But as any other villain you take your past sufferings out on someone who can't defend himself nor had anything to do with your earlier suffering.

Is it not your position that all of Israel is "occupied" land? Is it not your position that every country not under Muslim rule is "Dar Al-Harb"? As for the Holocaust, it is a terrible fact of history. It was the major impetus behind the recognition of the Jewish state. Both you and I wish the Holocaust had not happened, except for very different reasons. But there's no way to change the past; there is no way to undo history. As a result of historical and political events the state of Israel was reborn. But even if the Holocaust had not occurred, Israel would have been reconstituted at some point anyway. It was only a question of time, because God willed it so. You're the one with built up frustration, frustration that my people live. You need to see your people's illegitimate, evil quest for what it is. Otherwise you'll live in your comfortable environment of propaganda. I'll support Israel and you'll support it's destruction. And we'll see who is vindicated.

[yakkiebah]

This would be a good moment to take out Hamas completely. And i have the feeling that Israel might just do that.

[greenG4]

According to the Bible, it is almost pointless to try to mediate peace between them. Arabs (the decendants of Abraham's son Ishmael) and Israelites (decendants of Abrahm's son Isaac) have been fighting for a lot longer than recent history. The person to bring peace between them will be the antichrist. At the same time, many don't beleive the Bible, so they must at least try. The Christian perspective of this conflict is actually fascinating. Abarham wanted to "help God out" by having a son with someone else instead of his wife. An excellent example of why we should let God fufil His promises and not attempt to things our own way--we might start a war that lasts a few thousand years.

There are those of you who side with Israel and those that are rooting for the Palestinians in this. My opinion of why we need to support Israel is a religeous one so that will count negative on me from some of you, but here it is:

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, they shall prosper that love thee." (Psalm 122:6)

In short it means God will bless the nations that help out Israel.

According to the Bible the land of Canan (where Israel is now), belongs to the Jews. (Genesis 12:1-3, 13:14-18, 15:1-21, 17:4-8, 22:15-18, 26:1-5 and Psalm 89:28-37.)

MHO

[greenG4]

Since I dont think we need a new thread for every new turn this takes:

Israel increased pressure Wednesday on the Palestinian Authority and Syria, sending warplanes over the country home of Syria's president and expanding its military campaign in Gaza.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ier/index.html

[vmarks]

Since we aren't taking a new thread for each twist in this story, in ADDITION to the soldier, Hamas also kidnapped a 18 year old Israeli.

Today, they claim they killed him. Executed him.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060629/...l_palestinians

[yakkiebah]

Guess what? Israel is taking out Hamas.

64 of them have been arrested so far