[Taliesin]

... one US-soldier planned to rape an iraqi-woman/girl and later entered with four US-soldiers the home of the family belonging to that woman/girl, then he killed all of the family except her, and then he raped the still living woman/girl and then killed her, too.

In June two US-soldiers belonging to that same regiment-unit were kidnapped, tortured and killed, possibly as a direct reaction to that incident, which prompted the confession of one of the soldiers involved in the raping/murdering. More details here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5142852.stm

Taliesin

[greenG4]

Another affidavit said Mr Green, who belonged to the 101st Airborne Division, had been discharged from the army "due to a personality disorder" before the rape and killings were known about.

Can you see "Not Guilty by reason of insanity" coming? This just makes me sick...

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

...possibly as a direct reaction to that incident, which prompted the confession of one of the soldiers involved in the raping/murdering.

This is your conjecture only. I haven't seen any news site, including your BBC link, make such a claim. The insurgents who killed the two soldiers most likely did so in revenge for the killing of Al-Zarqawi, if not for their own personal lust for power.

In any case, if Green and company are guilty, and it certainly seems so thus far, then I support his execution.

[Hawkeye_a]

I wanted to post this earlier today..... it's truely sickening. gut renching even.... first the incident in Japan, now this...and the hundreds that dont make the news and the thousands that probably dont get reported (rape).

It is in my humble opinion that this is exactly why the US has stayed out of the ICC. And this is exactly why they aught to join. The U.S. wants to police the world... and yet have no one be able to take them to court when they PURPOSELY **** up.

Thanks Kofi, thanks for showing us what your pathetic organization can accomplish.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by greenG4

Can you see "Not Guilty by reason of insanity" coming? This just makes me sick...

Nah, personality disorders are specifically excluded from insanity.

[pooka]

Yeah, gonna have to say that if homeboy is guilty, he should be flown back and turned over to the Iraqis for summary execution. Death by a thousand spoon wounds if I had my way.

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think that we should execute rapist with a form of lethal injection? Through the anus?

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by pooka

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think that we should execute rapist with a form of lethal injection? Through the anus?

[Kerrigan]

Only if he's a American soldier.

We know how much leftists hate those guys, they're glad whenever something like is brought to light.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

The U.S. wants to police the world... and yet have no one be able to take them to court when they PURPOSELY **** up.

Read the article. He's in US federal court.

A former US soldier has appeared in a US federal court, charged with the rape and murder of an Iraqi woman, and the killing of three members of her family.

[dcmacdaddy]

Every aspect of this story is sickening.

From the planning that went into it to the willingness to carry out it to those compatriots of Green who would even consider participating in a cover-up. Of course, this does harm to the US image in Iraq. A handful of bad soldiers like this guy and the folks from Abu Ghraib can ruin a lot of the goodwill our troops have earned. If he is found guilty of all the horrors suggested then yes, let's put him to death.

[Busemann]

Utterly tragic but not unique. In fact, this kind of thing seems to have happened in pretty much every war there's been. The Red Army raped some 2 million german women during WW2, for instance.

Let's hope everyone involved will be punished hard.

[Kevin]

The UN has been doing it for years. Yet I have seen no threads about it in here.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The UN has been doing it for years. Yet I have seen no threads about it in here.

Doing what? Rape and murder? What is 'it'?

[Kevin]

Well yes, what is this thread about?

The UN has a horrible track record with such things. More so than the US.

But yet, I never see the typical people complaining about such things pointing that out.

Odd.

[ghporter]

"IT" is an allegation. It is alleged that someone raped this woman and instigated killing her and her family. It is further alleged that the former soldier, who is in custody, is the perpetrator of at least some of these acts.

By the way, "personality disorder" is not necessarily a psychological diagnosis. It could be that the guy managed to get out of the Army by convincing someone that he just wasn't adapting to Army life, particularly after combat. Connecting it to his personality could be the guy's own doing.

Now if there truly was such an incident (and the evidence revealed so far makes that pretty certain) then I hope that all involved get to spend a long, long time behind bars contemplating their behavior. This is reprehensible and we as civilized people cannot tolerate it. I'll be interested in finding out about the other soldiers who were involved in the incident-they can't all be discharged-and what happens with them.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Well yes, what is this thread about?

The UN has a horrible track record with such things. More so than the US.

But yet, I never see the typical people complaining about such things pointing that out.

Odd.

I'm not a big fan of the UN and, thus I have the UN on ignore. Can you point out some specifics so I can read up on these horrors?

[ghporter]

Read some recent Mallard Filmore comics and you'll get more than you want to think about. Some countries provide peacekeeper forces because the UN pays the government pretty good money for them to do so, but that does not mean that these troops are at all professional. We're talking about countries other than Australia, Canada, the UK, etc. Third world countries with very non-professional militaries are involved in a very large nubmer of peacekeeping operations. Do the math.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Well yes, what is this thread about?

The UN has a horrible track record with such things. More so than the US.

Source?

I honestly can't remember reading about brutal rape-murders by UN personnel. No killings of entire families either. Rape and sexual exploitation, yes, but "such things"? And even more so than the US? I find that hard to believe.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by ghporter

By the way, "personality disorder" is not necessarily a psychological diagnosis. It could be that the guy managed to get out of the Army by convincing someone that he just wasn't adapting to Army life, particularly after combat. Connecting it to his personality could be the guy's own doing.

It sure is an odd choice of phrase if it isn't a diagnosis. I don't think I've ever seen "personality disorder" used in any other way. It's also interesting that he was discharged after this incident occurred but before it came to light.

[Kevin]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec15.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=42877

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001578.htm

http://txfx.net/2005/01/08/ongoing-un-rape/

http://www.uncorrelated.com/archives..._rape_mac.html

The fact you haven't heard about these instances is of no surprise to me.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by Kevin

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec15.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=42877

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001578.htm

http://txfx.net/2005/01/08/ongoing-un-rape/

http://www.uncorrelated.com/archives..._rape_mac.html

The fact you haven't heard about these instances is of no surprise to me.

All the more reason for the US to get out of the UN.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by Kevin

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec15.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=42877

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001578.htm

http://txfx.net/2005/01/08/ongoing-un-rape/

http://www.uncorrelated.com/archives..._rape_mac.html

The fact you haven't heard about these instances is of no surprise to me.

Well, I have previously read about these instances, and as horrible as they are, they do not mention rape-murders, or killings of any kind, which is what this thread is about, and which is what you first accused the UN of doing. Rape and sexual abuse among UN peacekeepers is very known, and has been brought up here previously, use the search.

Let's keep this discussion honest, okay?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by greenG4

All the more reason for the US to get out of the UN.

Indeed.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Busemann

Well, I have previously read about this, and as horrible as they are, they do not mention rape-murders, or killings of any kind, which is what this thread is about. Rape and sexual abuse among UN peaccekeepers is very known, and has been brought up here previously.

Let's keep this discussion honest, okay?

Oh you want murders too?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=42088

The U.N. has promised to investigate and prosecute the widespread allegations. But, as WND reported last month, the global organization is not known for its forthrightness and candor in such internal investigations. The agency has been criticized for ignoring evidence or wrongdoing in the past – including accusations of rape and murder by "peacekeepers."

In fact, previous revelations of peacekeeping abuses have only been revealed by news organizations. Such was the case in Cambodia in the early 1990s and later in Somalia, Bosnia and Ethiopia.

"I am afraid there is clear evidence that acts of gross misconduct have taken place," Secretary-General Kofi Annan admitted. "This is a shameful thing for the United Nations to have to say, and I am absolutely outraged by it."

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by greenG4

All the more reason for the US to get out of the UN.

So by that logic, is this incident reason to get out of the war too? Or should we focus on fixing what's wrong instead?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oh you want murders too?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=42088

The U.N. has promised to investigate and prosecute the widespread allegations. But, as WND reported last month, the global organization is not known for its forthrightness and candor in such internal investigations. The agency has been criticized for ignoring evidence or wrongdoing in the past – including accusations of rape and murder by "peacekeepers."

Doesn't really prove the UN has a worse track record of killings than the US--it doesn't really prove anything at all--but whatever

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by Busemann

So by that logic, is this incident reason to get out of the war too? Or should we focus on fixing what's wrong instead?

You're not reading my mind properly. IMO, the UN is corrupt. The US pays the vast majority of the UN bill, and I don't think we need to be supporting that organization. It would be nice to see a "shke-down" in the UN to get it back to what i's intended for, but I'm not that optimistic.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Busemann

Yeah, you've convinced us

Us? Who is this us you are referring to?

Would you like me to post more?

I am not denying this happenstance in the topic happened.

Why are you in denial about the UN?

This isn't a UN/US thing either.

This is just human nature.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Would you like me to post more?

If you can post specific stories akin to this, ie rape-murders, then yes. If it's more right wing anti-UN propaganda, then no.

I am not denying this happenstance in the topic happened.

Why are you in denial about the UN?

As I said in my first post, rape and sexual abuse is well known and has happened. There's no doubt about that. As you said, it's human nature. It's the allegation you threw out about the UN having a worse track record than the US in brutal acts like this incident--I mean, you know what happened in Vietnam and stuff, right?--which I'm simply questioning you about.

So, not in denial

[Kevin]

http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Conte...7/17engler.cfm

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...9828161683B252

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...5/18210371.php

I would say the UN was about equal with the killings, and twice as worse with the sex abuse.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by Kevin

http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Conte...7/17engler.cfm

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...9828161683B252

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...5/18210371.php

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/congo.php

A good read since you've now switched over to criticizing their official military actions. Not necessarily defending them, but it's always good to get some perspective on why things happen.

Btw, still couldn't find what I asked for, eh?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by BRussell

It sure is an odd choice of phrase if it isn't a diagnosis. I don't think I've ever seen "personality disorder" used in any other way. It's also interesting that he was discharged after this incident occurred but before it came to light.

I don't know which afadavit mentions "personality disorder," nor who executed it. If it was a statement by Green or someone speaking on his behalf, then I'd wonder whether it's phrased this way for tactical purposes. If it was done by anyone other than a psychologist or psychiatrist who actually diagnosed the guy, then it's still not a diagnosis. Only such a shrink, or a quote from his medical record (which only Green could introduce at this point) would work as a diagnosis. Otherwise, it's posturing.

I think the guy's disturbed, but I'm not qualified to diagnose him. Nobody on this board is, regardless of their credentials, becasue to diagnose a person requires an actual evaluation, not a review of his and other people's statements.

I'm not saying he's not whacko. Just that I don't know yet how the phrase "personality disorder" crept into the story.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Read some recent Mallard Filmore comics and you'll get more than you want to think about. Some countries provide peacekeeper forces because the UN pays the government pretty good money for them to do so, but that does not mean that these troops are at all professional. We're talking about countries other than Australia, Canada, the UK, etc. Third world countries with very non-professional militaries are involved in a very large nubmer of peacekeeping operations. Do the math.

Oh I am pretty sure this happens with more "professional" forces like Australia, Canada, the UK, etc. In terms of numbers, I have no idea, but unfortunately, military life attracts some people (not all of them! not all of them) whom may not be as pure as the objective.

Also, ther eis no science to accurately predict the behavior of people under extremely harsh and stressful situations like soldiers are facing. Strenght of sharacter and good mental health are certainly challenged big time. Think of it: you're hated by the people you rescue, and you're hated by the people back home; all you have is a letter from a friend or family once in awhile, and your unit. How easy can that be?

Let's face it; humanity as a whole has evolved greatly, but there are a few still behind, and they're those we are the least proud of, yet, are the last we care for, too often.

I am not too fond of military action myself, but I greatly respect and appreciate what those guys do. I can only imagine the difficulties they are facing, and I am sure I still underappreciate it big time.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by greenG4

All the more reason for the US to get out of the UN.

Yes, please.

[Kevin]

And if that happened, the UN would be even more Irrelevant than it already is.

[ghporter]

It doesn't take "science" to "predict" behavior of troops in the field. It takes leaders who are willing to say "these troops are not performing their duties properly, so take them away somewhere to do something else." This is called "leadership." U.S. military leaders are held to a very high standard, and failings of their subordinates are considered THEIR faililngs too. Whether through ethics or a desire not to get stuck never being promoted, the brass watches the troops pretty closely, particularly since Abu Grhaib. That this incident took a while to come to OUR attention doesn't mean that it wasn't being looked at by the military from very early on.

I'll state this very plainly: there is a huge difference between teaching someone how to wear a uniform and generally behave as he's told and producing a professional soldier. A professional has integrity and holds himself to a higher standard than most people understand. One works to be the best at what one does because that sort of self-competition is part of the social framework of being a professional. It means that professional soliders are very hard on themselves and often leads to burn out in peacetime. In war, it means that time and again these professionals volunteer for another tour in combat.

Pendergast, you are right that you can only imagine what these troops are facing. I can imagine it a bit better, with over 23 years of military service behind me, and I still have to imagine it, as I was never put in such situations. But I do know how the military midset works. While there are screw ups in every service, in every unit even, they are the serious exception, and those who are capable of losing their humanity to the level needed to take the kind of advantage that these UN peacekeepers have are easy to spot and remove. I'm not saying that no Aussie or Canuk would turn down an offer of sex for food, but it's highly unlikely that they would start the transaction in the first place. More likely they'd donate food to a family that was in need-that's what an American GI would do, as history shows time after time after time.

[von Wrangell]

ghporter:

It would be more correct to use "most American GI" would do. There are scum in every military. And sh*t like this happens everywhere in a war-zone. It doesn't matter from where the soldiers are. It will always happen and that is one of the reasons you don't start an unprovoked war.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I don't know which afadavit mentions "personality disorder," nor who executed it. If it was a statement by Green or someone speaking on his behalf, then I'd wonder whether it's phrased this way for tactical purposes. If it was done by anyone other than a psychologist or psychiatrist who actually diagnosed the guy, then it's still not a diagnosis. Only such a shrink, or a quote from his medical record (which only Green could introduce at this point) would work as a diagnosis. Otherwise, it's posturing.

I think the guy's disturbed, but I'm not qualified to diagnose him. Nobody on this board is, regardless of their credentials, becasue to diagnose a person requires an actual evaluation, not a review of his and other people's statements.

I'm not saying he's not whacko. Just that I don't know yet how the phrase "personality disorder" crept into the story.

It's in the criminal charge, which can be viewed here. It was offered by the prosecution, not Green himself, at least not in that document - I suppose it's possible that he claimed to have a personality disorder which got him discharged, but I have no idea if that would be possible. It definitely doesn't sound right. I could believe someone claiming to be depressed, but to claim to have a personality disorder? By definition, people with personality disorders think there's nothing wrong with them.

I'm not suggesting that it should be taken at face value, I just wanted to dispute the idea that this could be offered as an insanity defense. Not only are personality disorders specifically excluded from insanity defenses, but they are treated as aggravating factors, not mitigating factors (e.g., schizophrenia).

I also find it suspicious that after this horrible crime he was discharged with a personality disorder. Was it antisocial personality? Could some of his buddies have realized what kind of person he was - maybe even knowing about this incident - and didn't want it to happen again?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by ghporter

(...)
Pendergast, you are right that you can only imagine what these troops are facing. I can imagine it a bit better, with over 23 years of military service behind me, and I still have to imagine it, as I was never put in such situations. But I do know how the military midset works. While there are screw ups in every service, in every unit even, they are the serious exception, and those who are capable of losing their humanity to the level needed to take the kind of advantage that these UN peacekeepers have are easy to spot and remove. I'm not saying that no Aussie or Canuk would turn down an offer of sex for food, but it's highly unlikely that they would start the transaction in the first place. More likely they'd donate food to a family that was in need-that's what an American GI would do, as history shows time after time after time.

You won't see me argue much with you on this, but your post seemed to exclude some specific forces, which exclusion I disagree with. Human beings will react in very special ways under very specific situations. That does not mean a military force with good budget, history and strong culture of command would fail compared to less equiped nation.

Then again, you did point out that the brass is more attentive to what is going on especially since Abu Ghraib. Yet, after Viet-Nam, Nan-King etc, one would think the lesson was learnt a long time ago... Sounds like not everyone was in class then.

Don't get me wrong: I have no intention of bashing the military: they're humans having to live under extraordinary circumstances, unlike any most of us will have to go through. But leadership will never be enough, even though your claim is true, and that I agree with. The black box of the human mind is still full of surprises, and my usage of science as a tool to predict human behavior shows how limited our control is.

What I posted was in no way to downplay the effort each individual of the military is applying (although the political background remains an issue) but rather, to point out that this kind of stuff happened, is happening now, and will happen again, like it or not, regardless of the military force. That it will happen less in better prepared military forces, I have no doubt.

[ghporter]

Actually, I AM saying that a professional military, like ours, the Australians', the Canadians', the Germans' etc. would behave much better than a Ghanian, Zimbabwian, or other third world military precisely because of the profesionalism aspect. There is a huge tradition behind the established, professional military structures in the "developed world," while many third world militaries are basically well armed thugs.

Every generation of commanders gets its own challenges, and between conflicts military organizations become less military and more corporate. It takes a conflict to remind the higher ups that they aren't there to watch the budget and keep the furniture shiny. I've seen it happen three times.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

ghporter:

It would be more correct to use "most American GI" would do. There are scum in every military. And sh*t like this happens everywhere in a war-zone. It doesn't matter from where the soldiers are. It will always happen and that is one of the reasons you don't start an unprovoked war.

woah i actually agree with you on that ....

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by f1000

This is your conjecture only. I haven't seen any news site, including your BBC link, make such a claim.

From the BBC-link already posted:

Some of the suspects belong to the Division's 502nd Infantry Regiment, the same unit as two soldiers kidnapped, tortured and killed by insurgents south of Baghdad last month.

Some reports suggested that this event may have spurred soldiers to come forward with information about the killings.

So the article at least suggests a link, and claims that some reports suggested that the kidnapping, torturing and killing of US-soldiers from the same regiment-unit as some of the suspects may have spurred soldiers to come forward with information and confessions.

A lot of "may, suggests, reports...", but still...

Taliesin

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

So the article at least suggests a link, and claims that some reports suggested that the kidnapping, torturing and killing of US-soldiers from the same regiment-unit as some of the suspects may have spurred soldiers to come forward with information and confessions.

You specifically suggested that the killings of the two American GIs were a direct result of the rape/murder of this girl and her family. None of the news sources, including your quote, ever suggested such a causal relationship.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

woah i actually agree with you on that ....

Time to check the temperature in hell?


Who of us is closer to hell though?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by f1000

You specifically suggested that the killings of the two American GIs were a direct result of the rape/murder of this girl and her family. None of the news sources, including your quote, ever suggested such a causal relationship.

Actually the quote I provided suggested such a link: The soldiers obviously thought that there was a direct causal link that troubled their conscience enough to come forward with the confessions and informations..

I'm surprised that you can't see that that was "suggested" in the article.

Taliesin

[ghporter]

I believe, having BEEN a GI for over two decades, that the number of bad apples is incredibly small. But when you throw everyone available into a horrendous situation, you bring out those bad apples' bad qualities, no matter how well they had managed to stay under control. Another issue is that there are people promoted beyond their capacity all the time, and in the military it takes actual combat responsibilities to show up the poor performers, particularly in terms of commanders, so the people responsible for finding and eliminating bad soldiers are not always the best people for the job anyway.

Overall, it's a bad idea to label any professional military as "subject to bad behavior" because the professionalism is there specifically to control their behavior. It's part of the definition of "professional military." There are rotten doctors, horrible dentists, sadistic attorneys, and so on, but of course they don't get to run around with guns. It's the people we entrust to do the right thing that we hear about so scathingly when something goes wrong and they might not have done the right thing. But note that our military DOES work very hard to catch and control those individuals who behave outside the allowable norms.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Actually the quote I provided suggested such a link: The soldiers obviously thought that there was a direct causal link that troubled their conscience enough to come forward with the confessions and informations..

What the soldier "obviously" thought is your opinion. The point is that you stated your opinion, but then provided a link as if to make your opinion look like a quote. That's dishonest.

[Monique]

There are always lots of abuse in wartime.

As for that soldier, allegation or guilt what is the difference?

And there were a lot more abuse coming from Hussain and family.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Monique

There are always lots of abuse in wartime.

As for that soldier, allegation or guilt what is the difference?

And there were a lot more abuse coming from Hussain and family.

Oh, so we should just accept "unacceptable" behavior like rape and murder becaue 'there are always lots of abuse in wartime?' And we should just take this suspect out and shoot him because 'what is the difference?'

As a Canadian, you should hold as dearly the presupposition of innocense until proven guilty as I do as an American. Think about that-if there's no difference, what keeps others from accusing you of something to get you punished just to mess with you?

[Monique]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Oh, so we should just accept "unacceptable" behavior like rape and murder becaue 'there are always lots of abuse in wartime?' And we should just take this suspect out and shoot him because 'what is the difference?'

As a Canadian, you should hold as dearly the presupposition of innocense until proven guilty as I do as an American. Think about that-if there's no difference, what keeps others from accusing you of something to get you punished just to mess with you?

You can't even recognize sarcasm when it came to the second question.

No abuse should not be tolerated, but it is always time afterward to take care of justice.

[olePigeon]

Rape is the worst sort of crime. Period. I hope they gets the death penalty.