[marden]

Guns Allowed In School?

Oct 5, 2006

To try and curb school violence, a state law maker is proposing arming school staff.
Republican Representative Frank Lasee of Bellvue says the school shooting plot in his own school district of Green Bay startled him into action.

At the beginning of next year Lasee plans to introduce a bill that will allow school staff to carry weapons.

Lasee says he envisions something that requires more training than a concealed carry permit.
"I think protecting our children is extremely important and providing them with a safe environment is important and if we have teachers and other school people who are willing, able and well trained I think it would increase safety."

Lasee says we need more options to stop violence in the schools aside from gun control.
This is just one idea.

And there's been a lot of talk about this proposed bill.

While Representative Lasee's plan does call for extra training for those who carry the guns, school administrators we talked with aren't so sure it's a good idea.

The Principal of Newman High School says he wouldn't want his teachers carrying guns.
"As educators and as a community, yes we need to be concerned about our children and we need to be concerned about protecting our students, but I think there are so many other avenues we can go down in order to protect them other than arming our teachers."

Principal Theiss says politicians could be more helpful by supporting funding for school safety than by allowing school staff to carry guns.

http://www.waow.com/news/full_story.php?id=42721

I like it.

Guns are only bad when the bad guys have em. If everyone knows they might be hit too then they won't shoot.

[art_director]

What we need to do is give the kids free condoms in school. That way their hormones will override the possibility of gun violence. It tough to shoot people when you're getting your groove on.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by marden

I like it.

Guns are only bad when the bad guys have em. If everyone knows they might be hit too then they won't shoot.

Pete Pochowski, director of school safety for the Milwaukee Public School system, calls the measure an "overreaction" that would lead to more violence in the classroom.

"Just taking a course and shooting some bullets down-range every six months does not adequately prepare you for the potential risk of having that gun taken from you," said Pochowski, a former Milwaukee police officer.

"These high school students are bigger than they've ever been," he said. "We've seen them take guns from police officers who are trained in how to retain that weapon."

ABC News: Legislator Proposes Having Teachers Carry Guns

[goMac]

Originally Posted by marden

Guns are only bad when the bad guys have em. If everyone knows they might be hit too then they won't shoot.

You're right. If we put guns in the classroom, it would be much harder for kids to get a hold of them. This is a great way to get kids away from guns.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by marden

I like it.

Guns are only bad when the bad guys have em. If everyone knows they might be hit too then they won't shoot.

Yes, mistakes and accidents never happen with good guys holding guns.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Yes, mistakes and accidents never happen with good guys holding guns.

Yes, and accidents never happen when when guys drive cars. We should ban automobiles on campuses.

Note to Wisk: A google search does not a cogent argument make.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yes, and accidents never happen when when guys drive cars. We should ban automobiles on campuses.

Note to Wisk: A google search does not a cogent argument make.

Note to Big Mac: We don't allow cars in schools.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yes, and accidents never happen when when guys drive cars. We should ban automobiles on campuses.

Note to Wisk: A google search does not a cogent argument make.

Wiskedjak thinks we are idiots, I think.

[BRussell]

"Alright class, SAY ELLO TO MY LEETLE FRIEND!"

[marden]

Originally Posted by BRussell

"Alright class, SAY ELLO TO MY LEETLE FRIEND!"

roflmao

[itai195]

Stupid idea for a number of reasons. Implement this and I bet they'll see a mass exodus of teachers.

[marden]

Originally Posted by itai195

Stupid idea for a number of reasons. Implement this and I bet they'll see a mass exodus of teachers.

Except in the inner city schools where it might add to the sense of security? Or in the rural schools where many of the teachers and administrators are hunters and farmers and know how to use guns.

The ones who might exit would likely be liberals and they should be encouraged to leave.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by marden

The ones who might exit would likely be liberals and they should be encouraged to leave.

So much for being cooperative and the "Bold New Alternative"

[marden]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

So much for being cooperative and the "Bold New Alternative"

No one agreed on the terms.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by marden

No one agreed on the terms.

Or, all you really wanted, as evidenced in your above statement, was to convince "liberals" to become "conservatives". Terms were irrelevant as you were unwilling to make any compromises.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Or, all you really wanted, as evidenced in your above statement, was to convince "liberals" to become "conservatives". Terms were irrelevant as you were unwilling to make any compromises.

Is it your INTENTION to play musical deck chairs as this great ship of state slows down to meet it's challenge or is that just an unintended consequence of your way of fighting a war? Just maintain discord as long as possible.

[JoshuaZ]

Maybe they should just put a cop in every school. Someone who is trained in how and when and where to use a gun. Heck, if its a bad school put a couple of cops in the school. You'd be spending a lot less money over time because as soon as one kid is shot by a teacher, or a teacher pulls a gun or even shows it off, you know that the school would get their butts sued off by some parent.

Plus, think back to high school. Most of the teachers in my school were 50+ year old women. Do you really want your high school teacher English teach to have a handgun?

[marden]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Maybe they should just put a cop in every school. Someone who is trained in how and when and where to use a gun. Heck, if its a bad school put a couple of cops in the school. You'd be spending a lot less money over time because as soon as one kid is shot by a teacher, or a teacher pulls a gun or even shows it off, you know that the school would get their butts sued off by some parent.

Plus, think back to high school. Most of the teachers in my school were 50+ year old women. Do you really want your high school teacher English teach to have a handgun?

Do you really want your high school teacher English teach to have a handgun? No.

Someone who is trained in how and when and where to use a gun. Yes.

Train the English teachers. Train ALL the teachers. MAKE them all carry weapons.

[Wiskedjak]

Sounds to me like what you want isn't really to arm teachers to protect themselves and their students, but to implement a system that will discourage "liberals" from the education system.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Sounds to me like what you want isn't really to arm teachers to protect themselves and their students, but to implement a system that will discourage "liberals" from the education system.

No, but if that was a side effect it would be a great improvement. Don't you think?

[amazing]

Ooh, right, "ban corporal punishment in schools" and then turn around and "give teachers guns?" If you can't trust teachers with a ruler, you're gonna trust 'em with a gun?

[marden]

Originally Posted by amazing

Ooh, right, "ban corporal punishment in schools" and then turn around and "give teachers guns?" If you can't trust teachers with a ruler, you're gonna trust 'em with a gun?

What kind of training did they get in using rulers? I think the proper order should be re-established in schools. The teachers should be the boss and anyone who comes into a school looking to shoot ANYONE had better know there are some bad assed MF Teachers there ready, willing and able to pop a cap in his ass.

And that's what EVERY parent in America should want, too.

[amazing]

Well, if you can't train 'em to use something as simple as a ruler, you think they've got brains or maturity enough to be trained to use guns?

Never had a teacher who was a bully? Never seen a teacher who was a sexual predator? Or one that was just plain out of their depth and unable to control their students? Well, they're still there, in the same proportion as in the general population. And they'd love to have a gun, just like they do in the general population. Teachers are no more mature than anyone else.

In the Wild West scenarios, the sheriffs resorted to keeping the guns out of town. So, you need metal detectors at all entrances to schools, and police guards to implement that.

And the wackos and weirdos will still strike at any soft target that they can find.

[Busemann]

Hmm.. I would say the last place on earth where there should be guns is in schools.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by marden

The ones who might exit would likely be liberals and they should be encouraged to leave.

So many problems with this statement. But I'll take the high road and respond with: teachers are already overworked and underpaid. Adding this as yet another job requirement will drive many away, in addition to the fact many will not want to carry a gun in the first place.

[marden]

Greenleaf wants homeowners to arm themselves
03:42 PM MDT on Friday, September 22, 2006

GREANLEAF - A small Canyon County town is considering a city ordinance that would recommend every homeowner have a gun and know how to use it.

A Greenleaf city council member proposed the idea as part of a plan to handle civil emergencies.

It would create citizen response teams and neighborhood watch groups, but would also recommend citizens own a gun and ammunition.

"We aren't choosing to pick a fight. We're choosing to organize and learn how to defend our own homes," said Greenleaf Mayor Brad Holton.

Holton assumes nearly every person living in his town already owns a gun.
"That's just the nature of our community," said Holton.

So he says little would be changed by adopting this ordinance that "recommends every head of household maintain a firearm and ammunition."

"It's requesting. It's not requiring," said Holton.

Holton says this is part of a larger plan to establish an organized response to a town emergency and a way to ensure Greenleaf's way of life is protected.

"The law enforcement agencies are not able to take care of each person and each private property, so it's up to local cities and local governments to develop a plan of how you're going to do that," said Holton.

The ordinance not only recommends gun ownership. It also recommends training on how to use them.

“If I was a burglar or if I was wanting to cause harm and I had all these cities to go to, why would I pick a city that is organized and trained? I wouldn't. I'd pick a city who isn't," said Holton.

Not everyone in town is in favor of the plan. Quakers founded this city a century ago.
“Historically, we're one of the peace churches," said Friends of Greenleaf Church Pastor Alan Weinacht.

Pastor Alan Weinacht says this ordinance goes too far.

"I'm not going to support that. I think that is falling into that culture of fear, and I'm not going to support that. I'm not going to encourage it. I think that's stepping over a line. It's where we don't need to go," said Weinacht.

Weinacht isn't opposed to owning a gun. He has a few himself but says the city has no business encouraging the use of firearms under any circumstance.

"If we would invest as much time into thinking about creative non-violent responses to violence as we did violent responses, we'd probably gain some ground," said Weinacht.

He sees this proposal could too easily be seen as a call to arms or the development of a city-created militia.

"I think the burden is upon city council to prove this is not what this is about, because it sure sounds like it," said Weinacht.

"Greenleaf isn't about being a vigilante, it's probably the exact opposite. It's a peaceful, small community and quality of life is very, very important to the people that are here," said Holton.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/s...s.2f0f202.html

......

News/Current Events Breaking News News Keywords: GUN CRIME PREVENTION
Published: Jan 2000 Author: Chuck Baldwin
Posted on 02/13/2000 17:20:23 PST by [email protected]

GUN OWNERSHIP MANDATORY IN KENNESAW, GEORGIA
Crime Rate Plummets - Why Doesn't The Media Visit Kennesaw?

"The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes. The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982. And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998. With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn't. The fact is I can't remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you? The reason is obvious. Kennesaw proves that the presence of firearms actually improves safety and security. This is not the message that the media want us to hear. They want us to believe that guns are evil and are the cause of violence. The facts tell a different story. What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city's crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn't force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don't have a death wish. There have been two occasions in my own family when the presence of a handgun averted potential disaster. In both instances the gun was never aimed at a person and no shot was fired."

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38a75857671c.htm

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by art_director

What we need to do is give the kids free condoms in school. That way their hormones will override the possibility of gun violence. It tough to shoot people when you're getting your groove on.

Maybe instead of having recess, they can just host orgies in the gym.

I see nothing wrong with this idea at all. No one will get upset or jealous.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

You're right. If we put guns in the classroom, it would be much harder for kids to get a hold of them. This is a great way to get kids away from guns.

Oh kids can get access to guns regardless. While I think this is taking it a bit too far, teachers having guns isn't going to make their access somehow easier.

Maybe instead, let principals start beating kids asses again.

[marden]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Maybe they should just put a cop in every school. Someone who is trained in how and when and where to use a gun. Heck, if its a bad school put a couple of cops in the school. You'd be spending a lot less money over time because as soon as one kid is shot by a teacher, or a teacher pulls a gun or even shows it off, you know that the school would get their butts sued off by some parent.

Plus, think back to high school. Most of the teachers in my school were 50+ year old women. Do you really want your high school teacher English teach to have a handgun?

Just watched Rep. Lasee on FNC and he said the guns would be locked up and like Air Marshalls the passengers/students would have no idea which teachers were the ones who were trained to use the weapons and had the keys.

The problem with adding a cop at each school is that once the metal detectors are defeated or by passed the shooter would naturally try to defeat or neutralize the cop. Hide the gun in your backpack or jacket till you can get behind the cop and then, pow.

It takes sometimes 15 minutes for cops to show up and the shooter can be at a different location from where he was when 911 was called. The police responders would have to carefully and deliberately go from one end of the school to the other looking for the perp(s) and freeing/protecting the students as they fled.

All this time the perp(s) might be shooting more and more people. If the reports from students and teachers is going to the office and they have a good idea where the shooter is going or is, a teacher who has volunteered and is trained for this duty would get the gun out of the lock up (the location of the gun(s) would be kept a secret) and go to intervene as well as possible.

In the event today with a boy and an AK-47 (strange how accustomed we've become to this, isn't it?) he gave up at the first sight of an authority with a weapon. How many more children must die before we do something?

[Chuckit]

The assumption that teachers are anything like Air Marshalls is what we call a "fatal flaw."

[Rumor]

Need more teachers like this one.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The assumption that teachers are anything like Air Marshalls is what we call a "fatal flaw."

The assumption that an average human being is anything like a good teacher is a stretch. But we make teachers go through training and after they learn how to teach and pass the tests we unleash them on our children.

If we can take **** for brains 18 year olds (God love em!), train them for 13 weeks and give them M-16's and other methods of dealing death and destruction and put him in a position where he will risk and fight and take lives, then we can certainly train mature civic minded teachers in the use of weapons which will save lives in an emergency when there is no other hope but to wait until the shooter completes his deadly mission or the police arrive.

No one is born with the ability to be a cop or a teacher or an Air Marshall. They are trained for it. These teachers would be trained.

If you had a gun and didn't know how to use it and you saw a kid shooting up the school where you happened to be and the perp raised the gun to the head of a defenseless student or teacher, what do you think that person would want you to do?

What would stop you from doing the right thing?

[goMac]

Guess we need to give teachers at least AK-47's now:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/09/mis....ap/index.html

Maybe a few grenades while we're at it.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by marden

No one is born with the ability to be a cop or a teacher or an Air Marshall. They are trained for it. These teachers would be trained.

Watch either:

a) No teachers take the training.

or

b) Teachers quit.

For context, I work in schools for a living.

[Chuckit]

Perhaps we should give the students guns. After all, we can take **** for brains 18 year olds (God love em!), train them for 13 weeks and give them M-16's and other methods of dealing death and destruction and put him in a position where he will risk and fight and take lives.

Perhaps the Army is not exactly the same as a school…

[marden]

Originally Posted by goMac

Watch either:

a) No teachers take the training.

or

b) Teachers quit.

For context, I work in schools for a living.

Careful that you don't make the same mistake as the Democratic voters of 2004 did. They thought EVERYBODY thought as they did.

It isn't true.

SOME people look at the job of looking after the kids safety to be as important as educating them.

SOME people think it is MORE important. It's just like the terrorist argument vs civil liberties.

Yes, it's important to make sure our civil liberties are protected but the first civil liberty is the right to live.

Yes, it's important to educate kids but if the kids are killed by some wacko they won't be learning anything.

Thanks for your service to America's future.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Perhaps we should give the students guns. After all, we can take **** for brains 18 year olds (God love em!), train them for 13 weeks and give them M-16's and other methods of dealing death and destruction and put him in a position where he will risk and fight and take lives.

If we put our soldiers in the schools who would we have to invade NOKO?

[itai195]

Originally Posted by marden

Careful that you don't make the same mistake as the Democratic voters of 2004 did. They thought EVERYBODY thought as they did.

How the hell does your brain come up with ideas like these?

[marden]

Originally Posted by itai195

How the hell does your brain come up with ideas like these?

I take the specific and convert it to a set of principles or dynamics. Then I scan my brain for similar sets of principles or dynamics and use as a search criterion things that are most likely to mean something to the audience being addressed.

It's almost an automatic process for me.

I saw goMac was generalizing about the mindset and attitudes of those teachers in his school or school system or teachers in general. As I know few people are able to speak for a majority of people on something this controversial and knowing he really believes that a majority of others think and feel as he does I looked in my mind for an example of where people were sure they were right and that their opinion was shared by the majority of the people in a group.

The 2004 election came to mind.

I went with it as he was likely amongst those who were sadly mistaken to find that their point of view DID NOT represent those of the majority.

[Rumor]

It's truly sad that we even have to consider arming teachers in order to keep our students safe.

I'm not sure if this is a viable solution at all. It's like taking car parts with you on a road trip, it jinx's the whole situation.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Rumor

It's truly sad that we even have to consider arming teachers in order to keep our students safe.

I'm not sure if this is a viable solution at all. It's like taking car parts with you on a road trip, it jinx's the whole situation.

Try thinking of it the way you would a fire extinguisher. Or even better, the "Forced Quit" function on your Mac.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by marden

Try thinking of it the way you would a fire extinguisher. Or even better, the "Forced Quit" function on your Mac.

Fire extinguishers can't kill people if a student gets his hands on one.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Fire extinguishers can't kill people if a student gets his hands on one.

The guns will be locked up in special containers secreted away from the kids' knowledge. The only time the guns will come out is when there is an emergency and if a student tries to get his hands on it he's likely to pull back a bloody stump.

[JoshuaZ]

Clearly the best way to keep guns out of schools is to put them in schools.

Maybe we should just try and deal with the problem at its source. The kids. If we keep kids out of schools, no one will be there to shoot at. Or maybe we could just start paying better attention to kids and providing a better education system in the first place.

[marden]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Clearly the best way to keep guns out of schools is to put them in schools.

Maybe we should just try and deal with the problem at its source. The kids. If we keep kids out of schools, no one will be there to shoot at. Or maybe we could just start paying better attention to kids and providing a better education system in the first place.

Would you like to stand helpless while a wacko came to your school and shot your students to death? How about if you tried to save them by talking sense to the nutter but he shot you, too?

Now, let's change the situation by giving you and a few other teachers some training, strategically hiding some handguns under lock and key, and then when a shooter starts to mow down your students you can stop him.

Makes sense doesn't it?

[Dakar]

Knowing teachers have access to weapons would probably just lead to their being targeted first when some psycho goes... psycho.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by marden

The guns will be locked up in special containers secreted away from the kids' knowledge. The only time the guns will come out is when there is an emergency and if a student tries to get his hands on it he's likely to pull back a bloody stump.

If the guns are convenient to access in an emergency, they are easy enough to access any other time. You can't give the guns some kind of magic power where they stay locked safely away in another dimension most of the time and just materialize when they're needed.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Knowing teachers have access to weapons would probably just lead to their being targeted first when some psycho goes... psycho.

You'd never know which teachers were the ones with training and access to the weapons. So a shooter would have to target every teacher and administrator in the school at the same time and very quickly in order to prevent SOMEONE from getting the weapon first and taking action against the shooter.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by marden

You'd never know which teachers were the ones with training and access to the weapons. So a shooter would have to target every teacher and administrator in the school at the same time and very quickly in order to prevent SOMEONE from getting the weapon first and taking action against the shooter.

Gee, I guess it sucks to be one of the wrongfully targeted teacher then, huh?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If the guns are convenient to access in an emergency, they are easy enough to access any other time. You can't give the guns some kind of magic power where they stay locked safely away in another dimension most of the time and just materialize when they're needed.

Why not? That's exactly what's happening every day, all around you. Everywhere in the world.

It's not magic. It's rules, laws, penalties and responsible people doing what they are supposed to do.