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Election 2020 (Page 7)
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reader50
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Dec 13, 2020, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Tell me... who stabbed who, and was it self defense?
I was hoping the news would say who did the stabbing. Or at least, which side the victims were on.

Most likely guess is the Trump supporters did most or all of the stabbings. Reasons:
1) They have a pattern of being armed at rallies.
2) The liberal protesters have little to get mad about concerning elections. Biden won. The Trump supporters are the ones with motivation to break the rules, as they were unable to win under them.
     
Doc HM
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Dec 13, 2020, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I like to understand something before I poke holes in it. **** me, right?

Tell me... who stabbed who, and was it self defense?

I also like to know what actually happened before I come to a conclusion. **** me, right?
I've been on here a while. I've seen a lot of threads going by and I have to say I find that your arguments becoming increasingly disingenuous.
You repeated hide behind posts like this, backtracking and pretending that previous posts have no connection with later ones and claiming that you are simply trying to understand. A couple of times I've blown past it and dismissed it as genuine but I am finding it harder to apply generous interpretations to your reasoning.

To claim that you cannot see any connection between a violent riot in DC with either Republican politicians continuing to indulge Trump or that there may even be a connection does not pass the sniff test.

Never before I the history of your country have republican representatives behaved like those supporting the latest Texas lawsuit, or those who continue to pretend that the election result is in any way still up for debate. In that respect alone it is not simply "business as usual"; as you have claimed.

representatives are also leaders, the job carries responsibilities to do both these things and failure of the second part leads directly (do not pass go) to the events now unfolding and ones that may be yet to come.
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Doc HM
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Dec 13, 2020, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I also like to know what actually happened before I come to a conclusion. **** me, right?
Doesn't matter what happened other than how likely is it that there would have been a march where right wingers are protesting the result of an election if certain people in positions of authority were not still, you know, pretending to contest the result of the election? **** me, right?
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subego
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Dec 14, 2020, 05:18 PM
 
If I am no longer due the courtesy of being able to request an argument clarified, my time is better spent elsewhere.

Take care, everyone.
     
Laminar
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Dec 14, 2020, 05:27 PM
 
     
Thorzdad
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Dec 14, 2020, 08:16 PM
 
Barr has been shown the door. That’ll teach him to tell the truth, I guess.

I can’t wait to see what foul toadie Trump puts in his place. Whomever he picks, most assuredly, will find rampant vote fraud, though not any actual proof of it.
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OreoCookie
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Dec 15, 2020, 01:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Barr has been shown the door. That’ll teach him to tell the truth, I guess.
I don't know. It seems a lot of former and current Trump admin officials are trying to preserve their legacy by suddenly tripping over their conscience.
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I can’t wait to see what foul toadie Trump puts in his place. Whomever he picks, most assuredly, will find rampant vote fraud, though not any actual proof of it.
Will Trump actually be able to pick someone else? It seems to me he doesn't have time to replace Jeffrey Rosen who will take over duties on 23 December. Under normal circumstances, this would be a huge deal. But right now, it seems just like another Tuesday of the Trump Administration, literally (for me).
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OreoCookie
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Dec 15, 2020, 01:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I was hoping the news would say who did the stabbing. Or at least, which side the victims were on.
Yeah, it seems relatively light on details. I also would have thought that once the first one or two stabbings occurred that the police would be clued in and kept both sides apart. And if they saw something suspicious that they started searching suspicious Proud Boys for weapons.
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Most likely guess is the Trump supporters did most or all of the stabbings. Reasons:
1) They have a pattern of being armed at rallies.
2) The liberal protesters have little to get mad about concerning elections. Biden won. The Trump supporters are the ones with motivation to break the rules, as they were unable to win under them.
Stand back and stand by.
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Thorzdad
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Dec 15, 2020, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yeah, it seems relatively light on details. I also would have thought that once the first one or two stabbings occurred that the police would be clued in and kept both sides apart. And if they saw something suspicious that they started searching suspicious Proud Boys for weapons.
Some reports I've seen say the police stood back while the Trumpettes did the violence.
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subego
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Dec 15, 2020, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If I am no longer due the courtesy of being able to request an argument clarified, my time is better spent elsewhere.

Take care, everyone.
So, I quite obviously had a meltdown here. I feel stupid, and want to apologize for it. While I think my being angry is justified, this level of anger was far more than warranted, and I can’t blame that on anyone but myself.
     
Thorzdad
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Dec 15, 2020, 12:48 PM
 
No worries, subego. Glad to see you back
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Thorzdad
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Dec 15, 2020, 12:54 PM
 
So, in last 24 hours, both Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell issued a firm backhand to Trump. Biden, with his national address last night, and Mitch, today, acknowledging (and congratulating) the Biden/Harris win on the Senate floor.

Oh, and Putin has congratulated Biden, too. So, even Trump's boss is on-board with a Biden win.
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Dec 15, 2020, 01:44 PM
 
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Laminar
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Dec 15, 2020, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, I quite obviously had a meltdown here. I feel stupid, and want to apologize for it. While I think my being angry is justified, this level of anger was far more than warranted, and I can’t blame that on anyone but myself.
Have a smoke and a pot of coffee.

You're the only one left here preventing this place from becoming an unabashed, unchallenged liberal echo chamber™.
     
reader50
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Dec 15, 2020, 02:36 PM
 
Trump's aggressive post-election fundraising blitz that has raised more than $200 million, according to campaign finance records. That means Trump is set to leave office with a massive fundraising database and a huge political bank account.

Senior Republicans say the question is whether they can get Trump to use his financial might to help candidates in the 2022 midterm elections — or whether the soon-to-be-former president will just use it for himself.
That is a lot of cash falling into his pocket. He's doing even better than his cabinet appointees.

How come the big money goes to corrupt individuals? I would make such good use of an extra million falling into my pocket. And I wouldn't use it to screw over a single person.
     
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Dec 15, 2020, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Will Trump actually be able to pick someone else? It seems to me he doesn't have time to replace Jeffrey Rosen.
He could possibly put someone in as Acting Attorney General, like he’s done with countless other positions. Someone who is more than willing to do crazy crap like, oh, arrest Hunter Biden or arrest the Governor and SoS of Georgia (as he’s declared needs to be done.) Stephen Miller would make a good pick, if he wants someone with no moral compass who is more than willing to burn it all down in charge over there. Miller makes Barr look like an altar boy.

I think just about everyone over at Justice would probably resign, if he did that, but, at this point, I think he’s all about how much damage he can possibly do before he’s dragged out of the White House.
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Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Dec 15, 2020, 08:29 PM
 
Is that $200m before or after he pays for all his frivolous lawsuits?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Thorzdad
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Dec 15, 2020, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Is that $200m before or after he pays for all his frivolous lawsuits?
Like he ever pays his bills
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subego
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Dec 16, 2020, 04:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
No worries, subego. Glad to see you back
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Have a smoke and a pot of coffee.

You're the only one left here preventing this place from becoming an unabashed, unchallenged liberal echo chamber™.
Thank you! 😊

@Doc... I’ll reply (far more constructively than I did) but I ask for a little time. Work is kind of a mess right now.
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Dec 16, 2020, 04:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Like he ever pays his bills
Yeah but his lawyers know that and would have got the cash up front!
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Dec 19, 2020, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
I've been on here a while. I've seen a lot of threads going by and I have to say I find that your arguments becoming increasingly disingenuous.
You repeated hide behind posts like this, backtracking and pretending that previous posts have no connection with later ones and claiming that you are simply trying to understand. A couple of times I've blown past it and dismissed it as genuine but I am finding it harder to apply generous interpretations to your reasoning.
I have clearly lost your trust, and wish to regain it.

I trust you enough to take your accusation very seriously, and see it as reason to subject my behavior to a harsh analysis.

My views antagonize the people here. My goal is to minimize that, and I will plead guilty to doing a very poor job. I plead guilty to doing a poor job in this very discussion. You more than deserve an apology for it. If I could have the discussion again, I would go about it very differently. That goes for most of what I post here.

What you accused me of? No. Absolutely not. Your accusations are both false and insulting. I do not expect the effort I put into arguing in good faith to be acknowledged or appreciated, but I will not stand for it being shit on. If my question bothered you, that’s your problem, not mine.
     
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Dec 19, 2020, 04:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My views antagonize the people here. My goal is to minimize that, and I will plead guilty to doing a very poor job.
Speaking for myself here, I find it is not your views, your opinions, but your style of arguing that can be antagonizing. If I didn’t know (you) any better, I would think I was being deliberately gaslit. (But I do, so I am a little perplexed sometimes.) I find many of your posts thoughtful and interesting, although in my experience this can sometimes turn on a dime and make discussing with you unrewarding and uninteresting. There have been quite a few instances where I was just confused and bewildered that you’d take issue with one small thing in what I thought was a long and nuanced post. That’s quite frustrating to me, because I know you to be an interesting person who add something to the mix. And I get the impression I am not the only one.

I’m not writing this to rehash some of the conflicts we have had, I’m writing this to tell you that at least as it pertains to me you’re liked and that your opinions are not the issue.
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subego
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Dec 19, 2020, 05:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Speaking for myself here, I find it is not your views, your opinions, but your style of arguing that can be antagonizing. If I didn’t know (you) any better, I would think I was being deliberately gaslit. (But I do, so I am a little perplexed sometimes.) I find many of your posts thoughtful and interesting, although in my experience this can sometimes turn on a dime and make discussing with you unrewarding and uninteresting. There have been quite a few instances where I was just confused and bewildered that you’d take issue with one small thing in what I thought was a long and nuanced post. That’s quite frustrating to me, because I know you to be an interesting person who add something to the mix. And I get the impression I am not the only one.

I’m not writing this to rehash some of the conflicts we have had, I’m writing this to tell you that at least as it pertains to me you’re liked and that your opinions are not the issue.
I think our communication styles work poorly together.

What appears as me turning on a dime is me getting more and more frustrated until I snap, which I will fully admit is not the best way to deal with it. However, I have also attempted to constructively address my frustrations to no avail.

That said, I do in fact treasure the opportunity to discuss things with someone as well educated and informed as yourself.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 19, 2020, 06:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think our communication styles work poorly together.
Maybe.
I sometimes feel I get whiplash, because during a very enjoyable conversation, you sometimes to my surprise get hung up on a tiny sliver of a larger point. Something that in my mind could be remedied by a simple, unexcited “That’s not what I meant.” or “That’s not what I wrote.” and then moving on the substantive points in my reply. I could understand that if we didn’t know each other (as opposed to having had discussions for over a decade). I feel as if I have to tiptoe around you to not set off a bomb sometimes with an imperfectly considered subclause.

Now I fully admit that discussions are a two-way street and I am sure you have issues with my style. Let me start: I can be stubborn and hard-headed, if I have come to a conclusion I can be hard to move. Perhaps we share that “we want to be understood correctly”, which works against us. Feel free to add to the list if you’d like.

I’d really like if we worked on these weaknesses of ours and avoid unnecessary explosions. We need more positivity, empathy and togetherness these days. Over the years I have learnt that discussions have to be about convincing other people, most discussions should more be about understanding other people better.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That said, I do in fact treasure the opportunity to discuss things with someone as well educated and informed as yourself.
Same here. Please don’t give up on us.
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Doc HM
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Dec 19, 2020, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I have clearly lost your trust, and wish to regain it.

I trust you enough to take your accusation very seriously, and see it as reason to subject my behavior to a harsh analysis.

I do not expect the effort I put into arguing in good faith to be acknowledged or appreciated, but I will not stand for it being shit on. If my question bothered you, that’s your problem, not mine.
I appreciate the feedback. I do have to say I agree with Oreo, a lot of the time conversations with you seem like light trolling/gaslighting however I am happy to take you at your word that this is not intentional.

As for the quoted text, there seems to be a substantial disconnect between the two statements. You have gone from maybe I need to check myself and see if there's something to improve here straight to... however its not my problem so f you buddy. Can you see the problem with this?
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Dec 19, 2020, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
I appreciate the feedback. I do have to say I agree with Oreo, a lot of the time conversations with you seem like light trolling/gaslighting however I am happy to take you at your word that this is not intentional.
When I get this feeling reading subego posts, it's usually him essentially saying, "This isn't as big of a deal as the media/the left claims it is" or sometimes, "Let's assume this person's actions aren't intentionally malicious." I think those are both valid stances to take, and in an echo chamber with people that tend to lean in one direction only, those assertions can feel like trolling.
     
subego
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Dec 19, 2020, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
I appreciate the feedback. I do have to say I agree with Oreo, a lot of the time conversations with you seem like light trolling/gaslighting however I am happy to take you at your word that this is not intentional.

As for the quoted text, there seems to be a substantial disconnect between the two statements. You have gone from maybe I need to check myself and see if there's something to improve here straight to... however its not my problem so f you buddy. Can you see the problem with this?
Yes, I can see the problem.

Honestly, I assumed you thought I was such a piece of shit you weren’t going to believe a word I said and were going to tell me to go **** myself.

So I launched a preemptive **** you.

You’ve done the opposite, so it was a horrible assumption on my part, and I owe you yet another apology.

I care enough about arguing in good faith there really isn’t any difference between accusing me of bad faith and calling me a piece of shit. I want to make very clear I’m not pointing that out to excuse my tone. Your accusation was you calling it as you saw. I think I have at least a rough idea of why you arrived at your conclusion, and if I was in your shoes I would have reached the same one. I have no stones to throw.

The reason I’m pointing it out is because if I want to put arguing in good faith into practice, rather than just intent, what I need to do is allow myself to be vulnerable. What I like about discussing politics here is I feel safe enough I can be vulnerable, and not taken advantage of by anyone because you’re all good people.

I’m way too vulnerable here to be called a piece of shit. When I asked the question that touched this all off, my genuine desire was to be as vulnerable to the reply as possible, and while being vulnerable I was called worthless. This was devastating. Again, I’m not saying that to excuse my tone, only to show where my behavior is coming from.
     
subego
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Dec 19, 2020, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
When I get this feeling reading subego posts, it's usually him essentially saying, "This isn't as big of a deal as the media/the left claims it is" or sometimes, "Let's assume this person's actions aren't intentionally malicious." I think those are both valid stances to take, and in an echo chamber with people that tend to lean in one direction only, those assertions can feel like trolling.
This is correct.

Further, and this is my fault, when I say “this isn’t as big of a deal”, it comes off like I’m saying “there’s no deal at all”, which is trolling.

I know I need to do much better at this. It’s not intentional.
     
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Dec 19, 2020, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
When I get this feeling reading subego posts, it's usually him essentially saying, "This isn't as big of a deal as the media/the left claims it is" or sometimes, "Let's assume this person's actions aren't intentionally malicious." I think those are both valid stances to take, and in an echo chamber with people that tend to lean in one direction only, those assertions can feel like trolling.
This is not the problem I have at all, these are not the posts that make it difficult for me to discuss with subego, though.
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Dec 19, 2020, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes, I can see the problem.

Honestly, I assumed you thought I was such a piece of shit you weren’t going to believe a word I said and were going to tell me to go **** myself.

So I launched a preemptive **** you.
That explains a lot.
I think you underestimate how much you are liked by other members — by other people, though.
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Dec 20, 2020, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That explains a lot.
I think you underestimate how much you are liked by other members — by other people, though.
This.

Also it sounds like there maybe a bit of overthinking or over investing going on. I would hesitate to lay a substantial amount of self worth on ANY internet posting. We all are who we are but it sounds like you could back off from identifying with posts and responses a "little" bit. Not so much that you aren't authentic, but enough that replies are just arguments rather than valuations of yourself, because you are better than any forum post.
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Dec 21, 2020, 10:21 AM
 
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
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Dec 21, 2020, 02:51 PM
 
Was just going to post that, while cursing myself for not realizing that this was going on so I could have bet on Biden when it was obvious to me that he had won.
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reader50
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Dec 21, 2020, 03:00 PM
 
Trump supporters tuning out reality fleeced themselves on the betting markets.
After the election was called, many continued betting heavily. Giving away free money.
Then Trump fleeced them for funds to fight the election in courts (he pocketed most of those).
Then Trump fleeced his supporters again, to support the Georgia runoff elections. He pocketed most of that money too, giving a fraction to the RNC. He gave $0 to the Senate candidates.

It appears Trump supporters are among the most generous people on Earth.
     
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Dec 21, 2020, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
It appears Trump supporters are among the most generous people on Earth.
Why do you think Megachurches are a thing? I mean, this guy is worth $300,000,000. He's not getting that from people capable of thinking independently, considering the sources of their information, and coming to a rational conclusion.

     
subego
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Dec 22, 2020, 03:20 PM
 
@Doc and Oreo

Just wanted to check in... still been slammed with work, not ignoring your replies.
     
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Dec 23, 2020, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Doc and Oreo

Just wanted to check in... still been slammed with work, not ignoring your replies.
Hope you get it all done before the break. I am neck deep in iMacs at the moment as everyone wants stuff fixed before Christmas.
Enjoy the couple of days off. I know I plan to.
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Jan 3, 2021, 04:50 PM
 
Trump feels phoning governors begging for votes to be overturned is fine. Even happy to confirm it on twitter.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ashington-post
New new low? Or just a stopover on the expressway to new low town?
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Jan 3, 2021, 05:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
New new low? Or just a stopover on the expressway to new low town?
More like a blatant demonstration of just how untouchable he is. He’s definitely broken Georgia state law with the call, and possibly federal law. And it’s recorded. But, no one will ever do anything about it, largely because his followers have shown themselves more than willing to attack or intimidate politicians (and their families) over freaking masks. Imagine the danger they’d be in if someone actually brought criminal charges against Trump. Brownshirts know how to intimidate.
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Jan 4, 2021, 01:55 AM
 
Trump may have just handed the Georgia Senate races to the Dems. Blatant corruption coming out 2 days before the election is hard to spin away.

Early voting (3 million so far) has favored the Democrat candidates, while votes on Tuesday were expected to favor the Republicans. That last part may not happen now. The Rep candidates must lead strongly on Tuesday, AND there must be strong turnout to overcome their deficit. If Trump has sabotaged either condition, both Dem candidates will win.
     
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Jan 4, 2021, 08:14 AM
 
Georgia is just too close to call.

Semi-related: all currently-living former Secretaries of Defense have signed a letter telling Trump to stop trying to overturn the election. This includes such left-wing radicals as Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.
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Jan 4, 2021, 08:44 AM
 
     
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Jan 4, 2021, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Georgia is just too close to call.
True, although I think reader's point is that Trump's friendly fire surely isn't helping the two Republican candidates. Currently, 538 shows that single-percentage lead in the polls, but as we have learnt from the election, pollsters are having trouble reaching Republican voters. I agree with you, we should be conservative here and just call it too close to call.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
reader50
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Jan 5, 2021, 11:18 PM
 
OK, the Georgia polls have closed. They were supposed to close at 7PM local, but one site stayed open until 8PM. Due to a car crash earlier that blocked access for a time.

With the polls closed, counting has begun. As I write this, both Rep candidates are ahead. It remains to be seen if the red mirage will hold, or fade into the evening.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 5, 2021, 11:58 PM
 
The last thing I saw was that the Dems have done better than they need across all regions. DeKalb county is running about 80-20 D, with 37% counted.

Cook Political Report has called it for Warnock.

NYT is projecting (but not calling as yet) both Dems winning, owing to the vast majority of votes left to come in are from overwhelmingly D areas, like DeKalb Co.
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 6, 2021, 01:56 AM
 
I just checked the NYT, Warnock has a 1ish-point lead (97 % of votes counted) and it looks like he'll win. Ossof and Purdue are in a dead heat, with the slimmest of margins (50.01 % vs. 49.99 %) Purdue is in the lead (97 % of votes counted), you couldn't make it any closer if you tried. So it depends on what counties are still counting votes. 538 seems to think it'll go Ossof's way as does NYT's needle. But I'd rather wait until every vote has been counted.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
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Jan 6, 2021, 10:17 AM
 
If both Dems win, I'm afraid to see what the fallout will be. It seems like a lot of people are still hung up on the "stop the steal" narrative.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 6, 2021, 10:49 AM
 
Trump claimed "The Vice President has the power to reject fraudulently chosen electors". No one told Al Gore that. Pence quietly tells trump that no, he can't.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/...ection-result/

Romney heckled at airport, flight, over not supporting Trump.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/...tor-flight-dc/

Meanwhile, in Pennsylvania, the republican majority refused to allow a democrat to be sworn in, ejected the lt gov from the chamber, and declared one of their own leader.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-pennsylvania/


ya know. Wednesday.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 03:36 PM
 
Trump supporters have stormed the Capitol Building. Jesus christ.

Militia members have gathered outside the Georgia Capitol. Brad Raffensperger and senior staff have been escorted out to safety.
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
reader50
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Jan 6, 2021, 03:52 PM
 
Trump supporters have gotten into the Capitol Building, though not into either Congress chamber. Officials being evacuated.
A congressional reporter said one protester was shooting into the House chamber, as police officers tried to barricade the door with guns drawn.
This is going to end in a lot of arrests. Worse if any member of Congress is injured.
     
 
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