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Thoughts on Vista
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vigilantx
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Oct 7, 2005, 07:35 PM
 
I am relatively new to the forum, so I know I have no "street cred" with ya, but having used 3 different builds of Vista (Alpha, Beta 1, and PDC), I thought I'd share something.

When I sat there and looked through all of it's "features" that were "inspired" by the Mac, I was reminded of a scene in Jurassic Park that describes the abomination that is the Aero Glass. Aero Glass is such an eye sore. Having used it for long periods of time, I actually deleted it off the computer I was using it on, because it literally hurt my eyes to use it for extended period of time.

MALCOLM (cont'd)
The problem with scientific power you've used is it
didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read
what others had done and you took the next step. You
didn't earn the knowledge yourselves, so you don't take
the responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders
of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you
could, and before you knew what you had, you patented
it, packages it, slapped in on a plastic lunch box, and
now you want to sell it.

HAMMOND
You don't give us our due credit. Our scientists have
done things no one could ever do before.

MALCOLM
Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not
they could that they didn't stop to think if they
should. Science can create pesticides, but it can't
tell us not to use them. Science can make a nuclear
reactor, but it can't tell us not to build it!
I think this perfectly explains the current situation.
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ghporter
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Oct 7, 2005, 09:46 PM
 
That's a very interesting perspective. Having not been privy to Vista yet, I haven't any experience with any of its features, yet the feature list sounds so much like like Tiger that I have to wonder why I should bother. As for Aero Glass, I don't have a need for the high-level graphics cards that support it (or rather that it supports) so I don't see that I would ever even use it, but if it bothers your eyes...

I've been a Windows user since 1985, and I've always been frustrated by Microsoft getting things almost right on so many things. The one thing I thought they'd do fairly well was build a new OS that didn't depend on 16-bit, DOS legacy code. And I may never know if they did well on Vista or not with the way reports on it are going. I have no problem running Mandrake or Fedora and getting all the functionality I want without having to deal with the issues Microsoft produces.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Disgruntled Head of C-3PO
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Oct 7, 2005, 09:49 PM
 
My problem with the interface of Vista is that they are making things transparent because they CAN, not because they SHOULD.

Making the title bars transparent all the time makes it harder but microsoft thinks it is cooler.
"Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough!"
     
ghporter
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Oct 7, 2005, 09:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO
My problem with the interface of Vista is that they are making things transparent because they CAN, not because they SHOULD.

Making the title bars transparent all the time makes it harder but microsoft thinks it is cooler.
That's exactly what the quote from "Jurasic Park" meant. They did it because they could, not because it was useful or even practical.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
olePigeon
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Oct 7, 2005, 10:03 PM
 
Even Paul Thurrott, Microsoft's poster child, thought that the "frosted glass" effect on the title bars was just dumb
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Apple Pro Underwear
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Oct 7, 2005, 10:44 PM
 
Paul Thurrott isn't a MS's poster child, the every day monopolized MS user is. The normal PC user out there that has no interest in computer OSs is the one that will ultimately say — "frosted glass... THAT IS SO COOL."

sad but you know it's true. for all intents and purposes, basically nobody has ever seen OSX before and Vista will be viewed as the "innovation masterpiece".
     
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Oct 7, 2005, 10:48 PM
 
Google will **** Vista.
     
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Oct 7, 2005, 10:52 PM
 
Joe Montana is better
     
vigilantx  (op)
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Oct 8, 2005, 10:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
That's exactly what the quote from "Jurasic Park" meant. They did it because they could, not because it was useful or even practical.
That was exactly my point. Vista is far better now then it was in Longhorn, thats for damn sure. Things are still done for the sake of doing it without any rhyme or reason. Theres a bunch of stuff. For the most part, the new system wide notification system seems to be dead, which was my biggest gripe, but things are still not very clean. I remember things throbbing and bouncing not as a response to an action, like the Dock when it minimizes windows, but rather for something stupid. Certain types of notification windows would jiggle like jello merely because you moused over them.

I am no industrial designer, though I do like to read about it, and the design conventions that are practiced at MS show no reason. Most of the time, everything in Windows is so overwhelming, that it quite literally feels like a hyperactive geek is setting on your shoulder constantly poking at your head saying "Hey, look what I can do! Look What I Can Do!" even though you just want to get something done. To me, Windows XP was like they took the idea of Clippy from Office, and implemented the annoyance system wide. I remember installing XP, and constantly seeing bubbles pop up insisting that you stop what you are doing and look at them, and see what the system can now do.

If you look at the way the entire Mac system is designed, you have a very good and clear idea of whats what, and how it should and does react based on consistent implementation of things. Now it isn't perfect, but the behavior of how things work, and how cleanly things are done makes all the difference in the world. The idea of Widgets wasn't a new idea, but the idea of cleaning up the way you access them, and making it easier to design was what made all the difference in the world. I personally used Konfabulator for a little while, because it seemed cool, but stopped because all of a sudden, I had all these additional things on my desktop that I hardly ever used, and having additional "windows" to have to manage for the little bit of funcionality that it provided to me drove me up the wall. I love Dashboard because the stuff is only there when I call on it, and disappears from site and mind otherwise. In Longhorn, in the first build there was this sidebar, and it was a pain because all the little widgets were anchored to a centralized spot, but the sidebar took up so much of the onscreen space that it ends up elminating one problem of how to organize them, but makes the problem of what to do with them when you are not using them even worse, by constantly taking up screen real estate. In the latest version of Vista, the sidebar isn't enabled by default, but it takes the little stuff they did right, and threw it right out the window. Now the widgets, or gadgets as they now call them can be placed on the desktop, and while the sidebar still exists, it is no longer on the top most part of the screen like the start menu, which is weird because you can dock gadgets to it, but doing so doesn't seem to do much. So what is left is basically a really weird konfabulator like thing. *shrugs* I don't understand the logic in any of this.
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JoshuaZ
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Oct 8, 2005, 10:47 PM
 
I think the real issue will be which of the 6 versions of VISTA you should buy? Ohhh the consumer nightmare that will be for the average joe.
     
sek929
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Oct 8, 2005, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO
My problem with the interface of Vista is that they are making things transparent because they CAN, not because they SHOULD.

Making the title bars transparent all the time makes it harder but microsoft thinks it is cooler.
Transparency for multiple windows is so distracting its useless.
     
vigilantx  (op)
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Oct 8, 2005, 11:02 PM
 
The 6 versions of Vista will be amusing. I think people have given MS too much credit as far as the whole thing of bundling so much with the OS, like Windows Move Maker, and what not to the OS, while Apple charges for the latest versions of iLife. The whole purpose of all of this is to squeak out as much money out of your pocket as possible. But, I am willing to bet that the price of a GOOD version of Vista, that has all of the features of Leopard and iLife, will cost as much, as Leopard and iLife together.

The idea of Windows as a "whole-istic" platform is practically dead.
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smacintush
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Oct 8, 2005, 11:23 PM
 
Well, there IS one thing that MicroSoft excels at: Never living up to their hype.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
sek929
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Oct 8, 2005, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush
Well, there IS one thing that MicroSoft excels at: Never living up to their hype.
[James]But all the good software and periphrials only run in XP!!!!![/James]
     
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Oct 9, 2005, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush
Well, there IS one thing that MicroSoft excels at: Never living up to their hype.
And we're about a month away from XBox360. HD HD HD HD !!! lol...

I totally agree with you though on that remark. We talked about it in one of my Business Strategy classes....the whole Microsoft business model. They wait on the sidelines(being lazy and upping specs on existing products) until another company innovates...they wait for the market to be created and the marketing to be done. Then the next day/month/year/decade they release a miniscule update (to the original product developed by the other guys) and hype the crap out of it. And sadly but surely most ppl think theyre being innovative and releasing something worthwhile. They did it with Windows, Office, IE , Windows Media and XBox.

If Bill Gates should patent anything it's his business model which he has applied to numerous industries in the tech sector.

Vista will have everything OSX has with a few added extra features that will allow for further improvement (eventually if ever). But this quote comes to mind:

-"you sure it's alright to let these Microsoft guys in here ?"
-"We have culture, they dont...."

Cheers
     
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Oct 9, 2005, 01:08 AM
 
[James]But all the good software and periphrials only run in XP!!!!![/James]
James is like a MacNN legend now.
     
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Oct 9, 2005, 01:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by brokenjago
James is like a MacNN legend now.
Yeah... i actually miss the bastard.
     
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Oct 9, 2005, 02:09 AM
 
Microsoft only makes professional grade software of the highest quality. Windows Vista will answer your every prayer. Apple sucks.

-James
     
Hash
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Oct 9, 2005, 03:21 AM
 
its interesting, whats the point of releasing Vista since so many features were removed? I do understand it from the MS point of view and maybe PC manufacturers, but from the point of view of an average consumer? There are now so many desktop searches for PC (I am using Google desktop search, pretty good btw) and my system will not be able to use Aero Glass (it has Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz, Ti 4200 with 64 mb of RAM) - and I am satisfied with XP in general on PC side?
     
SomeToast
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Oct 9, 2005, 07:54 AM
 
With inactive Explorer windows, the slightly glowing, transparent-backgrounded title text gets confusing with the identically slightly glowing, transparent-backgrounded address field text (and both get confusing on a desktop image of any complexity). I was also surprised by the psychological effect that the window controls being right on the edge of the window had... having to take extra care when closing the window not to click whatever was behind it.

I do like the angling/scaling/fading effect of closing windows, though.

Originally Posted by vigilantx
I personally used Konfabulator for a little while, because it seemed cool, but stopped because all of a sudden, I had all these additional things on my desktop that I hardly ever used, and having additional "windows" to have to manage for the little bit of funcionality that it provided to me drove me up the wall. I love Dashboard because the stuff is only there when I call on it, and disappears from site and mind otherwise.
Konfabulator can also operate in this fashion, on a per-Widget basis (some, all or none).
     
vigilantx  (op)
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Oct 9, 2005, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by SomeToast
With inactive Explorer windows, the slightly glowing, transparent-backgrounded title text gets confusing with the identically slightly glowing, transparent-backgrounded address field text (and both get confusing on a desktop image of any complexity). I was also surprised by the psychological effect that the window controls being right on the edge of the window had... having to take extra care when closing the window not to click whatever was behind it.

I do like the angling/scaling/fading effect of closing windows, though.


Konfabulator can also operate in this fashion, on a per-Widget basis (some, all or none).

I know what you are talking about. The effects of things coming on and off the screen isn't too bad, and I actually use a APE plugin in that lets the Mac do the exact same thing. That with Shapeshifter's iTunes 5.0 skin for my GUI makes everything nice, and clean.

I know about the Konfabulator thing, but after talking to some people that know Arlo, and having had a small conversation with him over Konfabulator, I am not convinced that he is a sniveling, whining little baby, and I don't have much respect for him. To me, Arlo doesn't seem to get it. He is/was trying to make a platform to write full fledged applications out of XML and Javascript. You can mess with some of the default widgets that come with the latest Konfabulator, and get what I'm talking about. The whole multiple window thing, and so on and so forth seems to try to build it's own platform for applications. I just want something quick I can get to, and use, then put it away. I don't know. I don't like the fact there isn't a setting where I can ONLY make widgets show up when in Konspose mode. I find it irritating to have to jump through as many hoops as we have to do to set it up just to be useable.
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Big Mac
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Oct 10, 2005, 04:26 AM
 
The only question is whether M$ will muster the exceeding hubris required to actually release its flagship product with such an abominable imitation of OS X 10.0.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
olePigeon
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Oct 10, 2005, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
I think the real issue will be which of the 6 versions of VISTA you should buy? Ohhh the consumer nightmare that will be for the average joe.
Only 6?

Starter Edition (Only version not offered in 64-bit, and admittedly, may not even be in the U.S.)
Home Basic
Home Basic 64-bit Edition
Home Premium
Home Premium 64-bit Edition
Professional
Professional 64-bit Edition
Professional Small Business
Professional Small Business 64-bit Edition
Professional Enterprise
Professional Enterprise 64-Bit Edition
Ultimate
Ultimate 64-bit Edition

And just to round it off:

Server Basic
Server Basic 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise
Server Enterprise 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise Cluster
Server Enterprise Cluster 64-bit Edition
Web Server
Web Server 64-bit Edition
( Last edited by olePigeon; Oct 10, 2005 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Forgot the "Premium" version between Basic and Professional.)
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olePigeon
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Oct 10, 2005, 01:38 PM
 
Oh, and to top all that off:

Microsoft's modified their licensing agreement. You can't buy Server Enterprise anymore unless you also buy Software Assurance.

Software Assurance is an annual fee (paid every year) of 29% of the total value of software you have installed. Then you get "free" upgrades to all your Microsoft software.

Which sounds great, I guess, except when you consider products like Windows not being upgraded for 6 years.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
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vigilantx  (op)
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Oct 10, 2005, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
Oh, and to top all that off:

Microsoft's modified their licensing agreement. You can't buy Server Enterprise anymore unless you also buy Software Assurance.

Software Assurance is an annual fee (paid every year) of 29% of the total value of software you have installed. Then you get "free" upgrades to all your Microsoft software.

Which sounds great, I guess, except when you consider products like Windows not being upgraded for 6 years.
What do you expect. Microsoft is known for nickel and diming you. I was looking at getting an XBOX 360, but after looking at how much the set up was going to cost, I figured it wasn't worth it. I was looking at getting the premium box, 2 games, and 2 extra controllers, but when I started to add things up, things got out of hand. For example, the games are about $60 a piece. I was expecting to be able to get the controllers for $40 each, with the battery and ability to recharge, since you can get that today from Logitech. Well, the controllers are $50 each, don't have a battery, don't have a cable to recharge. So, I was looking at $100 for two extra controllers, $45 for three rechargeable batteries, $65 for 3 sets of rechargeable cables, and two games. Next thing I know, I'm looking at $730 before tax and shipping! Why on earth would you sell a wireless controller without rechargeable batteries, and a way to recharge it! The controllers are all ready at a $10 premium above competitors that do let you do it. When you consider how few good launch games are coming out, and the amount of money being paid, just for two games, I figured I'd just get a few games on my PS2 and be done with it. I don't have a problem paying reasonable amounts of money for things, but I don't like being nickel and dimed to death over things either. If you purchase software, you shouldn't have to pay for the right to continue to use it if no further functionality isn't being added. I feel sorry for people who joined during Software Assurance 5.0 I think it was, because it was high, and they are STILL waiting on their Windows updates they were promised, and they continue to pay for upgrades that never received.
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kmkkid
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Oct 10, 2005, 08:03 PM
 
Who cares? Really?

You guys bitch about MS products all the time. If you don't like MS don't use their products. I can see the point that MS stealing ideas from OS X is taking mac customers, however you guys bitch just as equally when windows users switch over, saying they're tainting your platform. Jeez. Get a grip.


The Mac platform is the perfect little niche market, allow it to get any bigger and Apple will soon be the MS of the computer world - with power comes greed. Me personally, I'm quite happy using both.
     
baw
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Oct 11, 2005, 09:48 AM
 
My thoughts are... I'm not going to use it. Win2k forever!
     
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Oct 11, 2005, 10:26 AM
 
I just saw a demo of Linspire yesterday evening. It's a great Linux distribution that's taylored for people who don't want to mess with the details of making Linux run, and who are used to the Windows interface. It costs $100 or less (lots of support comes with it), and it's FAST. The relevance of Vista is quickly evaporating.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 11, 2005, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
Only 6?

Starter Edition (Only version not offered in 64-bit, and admittedly, may not even be in the U.S.)
Home Basic
Home Basic 64-bit Edition
Home Premium
Home Premium 64-bit Edition
Professional
Professional 64-bit Edition
Professional Small Business
Professional Small Business 64-bit Edition
Professional Enterprise
Professional Enterprise 64-Bit Edition
Ultimate
Ultimate 64-bit Edition

And just to round it off:

Server Basic
Server Basic 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise
Server Enterprise 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise Cluster
Server Enterprise Cluster 64-bit Edition
Web Server
Web Server 64-bit Edition
You forgot to mention that for each version, there will be a corresponding `N' version in the EU which does not include Windows Media Player

I have problems finding my way through this maze of versions, I have quite a few years of Windows experience (the first version I used was 3.0 ). Except for playing safe and buying `Ultimate Edition', in order to find out what version you need, you need a catalog :hmmm:
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olePigeon
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Oct 11, 2005, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
You forgot to mention that for each version, there will be a corresponding `N' version in the EU which does not include Windows Media Player
I forgot about the "N" version for EU compliance. So here's an updated list of all the different versions of Windows you can choose from:

Starter Edition *
Home Basic
Home Basic 64-bit Edition
Home Basic N **
Home Basic N 64-bit Edition
Home Premium
Home Premium 64-bit Edition
Home Premium N
Home Premium N 64-bit Edition
Professional
Professional 64-bit Edition
Professional N
Professional N 64-bit Edition
Professional Small Business
Professional Small Business 64-bit Edition
Professional Small Business N
Professional Small Business N 64-bit Edition
Professional Enterprise
Professional Enterprise 64-Bit Edition
Professional Enterprise N
Professional Enterprise N 64-Bit Edition
Ultimate
Ultimate 64-bit Edition
Ultimate N
Ultimate N 64-bit Edition

And just to round it off:

Server Basic
Server Basic 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise
Server Enterprise 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise Cluster
Server Enterprise Cluster 64-bit Edition
Web Server
Web Server 64-bit Edition

* Starter Edtiion only available to developing economies.
** "N" Edition is EU compliant release excluding an embedded version Windows Media Player.
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OreoCookie
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Oct 11, 2005, 02:33 PM
 
So … which one should I get?
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Oct 11, 2005, 03:03 PM
 
Ian Malcom… such a nerd !

Text from www.theshiznit.co.uk

Nerds. Love them or hate them (maybe you are one), the world just doesn’t work without them. 

Ian Malcolm is not your average nerd. He dresses well, for starters. He is able to engage females in conversation for several minutes at a time, often establishing physical contact and even producing laughter of the non-nervous kind. At times, he even threatens to be cool, but make no mistake; Malcolm is pure nerd, from his specs down to his loafers. Brought on to Isla Nublar to endorse John Hammond’s prehistoric park, Ian Malcolm brings with him a head for chaos theory (not the videogame) and a sardonic wit that quickly begins to grate with the rest of the group. A nerd’s work is never done – while experts Dr. Grant and Dr. Sadler pontificate on the moral issues raised and the edible lawyer creams his kecks at the thought of the merchandising rights, only Malcolm cottons on to the fact that building a dinosaur Disneyland might be a little… well, dangerous. “The lack of humility before nature that’s being displayed here, uh… staggers me,” says an indignant Malcolm. “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should!” In other words: if it all goes tits up, don’t blame the geek.

And wouldn’t you know it, he was right all along. While fellow nerd Nedry was busy being eaten by a Dilophosaurus, the fences was failing all over the park, leaving a few dozen severely pissed off reptiles wandering around the complex, looking to set right 65 million years of evolution and grab a light lunch in the process. Whoops. There’s no finger wagging from Malcolm (just a brief “boy I hate being right all the time”), nothing of the sort. In fact, he mucks in with the others to make sure those pesky meat-eaters are put safely back behind bars. Another reason why Ian Malcolm is King of the Nerds – he’s almost athletic! Granted, he doesn’t quite manage to outrun the T-Rex, but he gives it a good go. Can you imagine Sir Robert Winston facing up to a brutal Tyrannosaur? How far do you think Steven Hawking would get squaring up against nature’s greatest predator? You’d still be removing his remains with a toothpick several millennia later. Malcolm survived an assault from the big T and lived to make sarcastic jokes about it.

It must have taken the promise of one hell of a fancy calculator to get Ian Malcolm back on an island full of dinosaurs, but nonetheless a few years down the line he found himself once more being terrorized by terrible lizards, this time on Hammond’s Site B. It’s here that we find out that Malcolm has a child (which means he’s had sex at least once, putting him straight to the top of the nerd Sex Premiership) and even had a dalliance with none other than Julianne Moore - like he says, Ian’s always on the lookout for another ex-Mrs. Malcolm. Has our favourite nerd forgotten his mathematical roots and given up cosine for copulation? Don’t bet on it. When Team Dino manage to stick another one past Team Human, Malcolm is on hand to remind them he told them so. “Taking dinosaurs off this island is the worst idea in the long, sad history of bad ideas,” he warns. Intentionally returning to a monster-infested hellhole has got to run it a close second, mind.

For too long, nerds were misrepresented in movieland – they needed a hero, and they needed one bad. They’d undergone decades worth of wedgies, wet willies, pink bellies and stinkpalms at the hands of high school jocks, but when Ian Malcolm came on the scene, for a brief moment, mathematics was the new rock and roll and nerds could stroll the corridors with their acne-scarred heads held high. Posters of Malcolm shared wall space with Xena: Warrior Princess and Buffy, corduroy trousers became fashionable and even popular kids started wearing glasses for no reason – if you wondered where geek chic started, look no farther than the grinning chaos theory expert in the corner. Ian Malcolm has plenty of reasons to be happy. After all, not every nerd gets his own action figure.



     
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Oct 11, 2005, 05:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
I forgot about the "N" version for EU compliance. So here's an updated list of all the different versions of Windows you can choose from:

Starter Edition *
Home Basic
Home Basic 64-bit Edition
Home Basic N **
Home Basic N 64-bit Edition
Home Premium
Home Premium 64-bit Edition
Home Premium N
Home Premium N 64-bit Edition
Professional
Professional 64-bit Edition
Professional N
Professional N 64-bit Edition
Professional Small Business
Professional Small Business 64-bit Edition
Professional Small Business N
Professional Small Business N 64-bit Edition
Professional Enterprise
Professional Enterprise 64-Bit Edition
Professional Enterprise N
Professional Enterprise N 64-Bit Edition
Ultimate
Ultimate 64-bit Edition
Ultimate N
Ultimate N 64-bit Edition

And just to round it off:

Server Basic
Server Basic 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise
Server Enterprise 64-bit Edition
Server Enterprise Cluster
Server Enterprise Cluster 64-bit Edition
Web Server
Web Server 64-bit Edition

* Starter Edtiion only available to developing economies.
** "N" Edition is EU compliant release excluding an embedded version Windows Media Player.
Are you really serious, Pigeon? If so, I wonder what kind of scheme M$ will devise to systematically cripple each one of those "lower" versions.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 11, 2005, 06:41 PM
 
Paul Thurrot published a feature list, and it's confusing. Not because he didn't to a good job (his list is the best I've seen on the net), but because it is confusing.

For instance Home Basic edition does not include Aero/Glass effects whereas Home Pro edition does. Wait, it gets even better. Home Pro does include Movie Maker and a DVD Authoring tool whereas Vista Professional does not. You want a Multilanguage User Interface? Sure, but only the Enterprise and the Ultimate edition include this. I mean wtf?? How stupid is this?

Even if you want all the eyecandy, you at least have to pay for Home Pro edition! What kind of bizarre logic is that?

Here's the marketing blurb on who needs what edition:

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
JoshuaZ
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Yamanashi, Japan
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Oct 11, 2005, 10:49 PM
 
Hopefully MS will confuse them all with this VISTA stuff and all the consumes will end up buying something else.
     
   
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