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Canadian Federal Election - The Debates.
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shabbasuraj
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Oct 1, 2008, 02:11 AM
 
French language debate on Wed, while English on Thurs.

WIth 5 leaders on, this might turn into a circus.

I think many will be surprised that May can hold her own.

Harper will look robotic... as in he will ignore every direct question, and respond with formulaic responses that do not even address the question being asked.

Dion might be fighting for his party's life, and might actually be an x-factor. Think caged animal, that will pull all stops.

Duccepe will do his own thing, and occasionally jump on Layton's bandwagon.

Layton will probably do the most talking, and probably be the loudest.
( Last edited by shabbasuraj; Oct 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM. Reason: grammar typo)
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 1, 2008, 07:59 AM
 
Why would many be surprised that May can hold her own?

She's extremely articulate, very very bright and has long experience as a legal activist. There's no question that she can talk, and talk very well.

The goal for Harper will be to get her to explain how the Green Party's wishy-washy goals will keep Canada afloat, create jobs, and stabilize and grow our economy in uncertain economic times such as these.

I agree that Layton will do his usual thing and try to attack and talk over everyone, as usual (I loved Paul Martin in 2003 I think it was – "Mr. Layton, did your handlers tell you to talk this much?"). Of course, he's also got a lot of explaining to do, regarding where influx of spending money is coming from.

greg
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Wiskedjak
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
Dion might be fighting for his parties life, and might actually be an x-factor. Think caged animal, that will pull all stops.
I don't know about this one. I think Dion should have been fighting for his party's life since the day the election began, and I haven't seen it. I think the Liberal party's goal is to have Dion crash the party so that it can be resurrected in the same fashion that the Conservative party was resurrected (Dion's probably not aware of this goal).
     
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Oct 1, 2008, 11:25 AM
 
None of that really matters. Do most Canadians even bother watching the debates these days?

It will be another Conservative government and possibly a majority this time. The liberals are a mess and the NDP are pie in the sky.

There have been no real scandals or slip-ups reported in the mainstream media so I don't really see how any of the opposition parties have a chance. It might be possible that the Duccepe's party could end up the "loyal" opposition.
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 1, 2008, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I don't know about this one. I think Dion should have been fighting for his party's life since the day the election began, and I haven't seen it. I think the Liberal party's goal is to have Dion crash the party so that it can be resurrected in the same fashion that the Conservative party was resurrected (Dion's probably not aware of this goal).
I'd say the same.

The thing is (and what I can't understand), he's been suddenly holding Bob Rae up as his best and most visible buddy for the last couple weeks. How can he possibly think this will get him any votes?!? Meanwhile, Ignatieff has been mostly buried. I mean, I just don't understand the moves Dion is making.

I'm confident – or at least I'm hopefully sure – that Ignatieff is waiting in the wings. (I say that like he's the Saviour or something, haha.) He's a little right-wing for the Libs, but also left-wing for the Conservatives, which puts him perfectly positioned to get my vote if he becomes party leader.

greg
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shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 1, 2008, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Why would many be surprised that May can hold her own?

She's extremely articulate, very very bright and has long experience as a legal activist. There's no question that she can talk, and talk very well.


greg

I only say that as this will be her first time to speak in such a forum.

I know she can hold her own, I have heard her speak in person and she comes off very passionate and knowing of the issues at hand.

What all opposition leaders should be doing is pull a surprise Harper bash fest, and be on the constant attack.
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Wiskedjak
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Oct 1, 2008, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
What all opposition leaders should be doing is pull a surprise Harper bash fest, and be on the constant attack.
I don't think that would be much of a surprise. With the exception of the Bloc, they'll all be targeting the Conservatives. The Bloc, of course, will be targeting everyone.
     
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Oct 1, 2008, 03:29 PM
 
Yeah, and I really don't think it's smart strategy. At this point in the game, we all know who's going to win. Unless something drastic happens the Cs aren't losing.

I'd think the jockeying for second place would be starting to ramp up right about now. If Jack can convince everyone the Libs are just hopeless, the NDP has a legitimate chance of seriously upping their seat count… and so do the Greens!

greg
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shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:15 PM
 
on now. for some reason you need wm player

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/debates/
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Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:48 PM
 
Harper is such a lying ass. What a ****er. I'm ashamed to be Canadian because of this asshole. So far, Duceppe, Layton and May are the only leaders that make any sense.

Dion and Harper are just un****ingbearable to listen to.

I swear, if Canada ends up with another Conservative government, I'm packing my bags. Harper is taking this country down with the US.
     
shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:50 PM
 
Harper as expected is getting crucified by all four on the environment.
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shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:51 PM
 
this format is so conducive for face to face cussing.
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Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 1, 2008, 08:53 PM
 
And it's happened a few times where all of them were talking loud simultaneously and being warned that nobody could understand what they were saying if they kept it up.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 1, 2008, 09:16 PM
 
shabbasuraj called it right...Harper's dodging the questions whenever he can. I can't stand it anymore. It makes me sick to my stomach.
     
shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 1, 2008, 09:35 PM
 
Harper got shelled....

May looked very good, and probably won a bunch of support debating in French. (pretty impressive)

Gilles and Dion attacked pretty hard.

Layton ...? I am not sure yet.

Harper was clearly outgunned here tonight, now it seems clear as to why Harper requested the 30 minute discussion on the economy (denied)... that would be to limit his vulnerability on all the other issues... especially on the environment.




Re-load ... and repeat tomorrow, in English.

the face-to-face format is actually kinda neat.

Paikin will have his hands full tomorrow.
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lpkmckenna
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Oct 1, 2008, 09:41 PM
 
I didn't bother to watch. It's on in the next room, but the translating sucks all the emphasis out of the speaker's intent. I'll wait till tomorrow.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 1, 2008, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Harper is such a lying ass. What a ****er. I'm ashamed to be Canadian because of this asshole. So far, Duceppe, Layton and May are the only leaders that make any sense.
Really? Duceppe, Layton, and May? Do you ever stop to think what it means when you endorse the only options whose platforms have no chance of winning? Have you even looked at how they plan to run the country?

I think Harper did fairly well. He was his usual relaxed, relatively laissez-fair self, which might've been a little low-key in this situation. He got attacked by everyone of course, but he handled it pretty well.

greg
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Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 1, 2008, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Really? Duceppe, Layton, and May? Do you ever stop to think what it means when you endorse the only options whose platforms have no chance of winning? Have you even looked at how they plan to run the country?

I think Harper did fairly well. He was his usual relaxed, relatively laissez-fair self, which might've been a little low-key in this situation. He got attacked by everyone of course, but he handled it pretty well.

greg
Have you ever looked at how the Conservatives and Liberals plan to run the country? Come on, dude, none of these guys know how to run the country...but the NDP has the soundest plan. The Conservative and Liberals have done nothing but run this country into the ground and you know it.

If I see more years of support for the Afghan war, money into oil industry pockets, and more broken promises, I'm going to vomit...all over you.

"His usual relaxed self". Yeah I guess...he was asleep and not listening to the questions and trying to weasel out of them or spew the same bullshit he's been spewing for the past few weeks. He's all talk and no walk, just like every other leader clearly mentioned.
( Last edited by Horsepoo!!!; Oct 1, 2008 at 10:44 PM. )
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 1, 2008, 10:59 PM
 
The NDPs have the soundest plan? The NDPs? I ask you, when has a modern NDP government ever come into power without running its government into massive debt and the party into record unpopularity?

Has Layton's $18 billion, raise-business-taxes-and-give-billions-to-child-care plan done anything to change this view of the party? What about abandoning clear NATO obligations in Afghanistan and leaving the country on the lam?

greg
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Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 2, 2008, 12:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
The NDPs have the soundest plan? The NDPs? I ask you, when has a modern NDP government ever come into power without running its government into massive debt and the party into record unpopularity?

Has Layton's $18 billion, raise-business-taxes-and-give-billions-to-child-care plan done anything to change this view of the party? What about abandoning clear NATO obligations in Afghanistan and leaving the country on the lam?

greg
NATO is just a US front to attack anything they disagree with. Wake up!

I'm packing my bags...I can't stand this country and the people in it. We're as dumb or dumber than Americans.
     
Eug
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Oct 2, 2008, 08:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
So far, Duceppe, Layton and May are the only leaders that make any sense.

Dion and Harper are just un****ingbearable to listen to.
A leader whose party's entire reason for existence is to destroy the country never makes sense.

Anyways, most of the pundits feel that Dion won the debate. Harper "lost" but held his own.

It will be interesting to see how well Dion does tonite though in the English debate. I'll probably watch, but just out of morbid curiosity, I'm also inclined to watch the US VP debate.

I'm packing my bags...I can't stand this country and the people in it.
Don't slam the door on your way out.

We're as dumb or dumber than Americans.
Of course we're as "dumb" as Americans... or the British, or the French. BTW, where do you plan on moving to?


Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
The NDPs have the soundest plan? The NDPs? I ask you, when has a modern NDP government ever come into power without running its government into massive debt and the party into record unpopularity?
The NDP in Saskatchewan has had a long history of fiscal respsonsibility. For example, back in the 90s, after the Conservatives spent all sorts of money on unnecessary hospitals for tiny towns, the NDP closed them down. After the Conservatives gave big financial incentives for people to do renovations on their home, the NDP killed that program.
( Last edited by Eug; Oct 2, 2008 at 08:54 AM. )
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 2, 2008, 08:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
The NDP in Saskatchewan has had a long history of fiscal respsonsibility. For example, back in the 90s, after the Conservatives spent all sorts of money on unnecessary hospitals for tiny towns, the NDP closed them down. After the Conservatives gave big financial incentives for people to do renovations on their home, the NDP killed that program.
...yeah, but I feel that the "Saskatchewan NDP" is a model all unto its own. Those 90s governments under Romanov, for example, were curiously conservative and he even once said something to the effect that he'd "developed Tony Blair's Third Way" (not a verbatim quote, but you get the idea). But you're absolutely right, that NDP government focused on fiscal responsibility and reducing the provincial debt.

This is actually a terrific balance of "right and left" in my view, but to be honest I don't think it accords in any way with the federal NDP party's history.

greg
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Eug
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
...yeah, but I feel that the "Saskatchewan NDP" is a model all unto its own. Those 90s governments under Romanov, for example, were curiously conservative and he even once said something to the effect that he'd "developed Tony Blair's Third Way" (not a verbatim quote, but you get the idea). But you're absolutely right, that NDP government focused on fiscal responsibility and reducing the provincial debt.

This is actually a terrific balance of "right and left" in my view, but to be honest I don't think it accords in any way with the federal NDP party's history.
Yes, but the federal NDP has never formed the government, so it kind of makes your original point moot.

In contrast, the Saskatchewan NDP have run the government many, many times, and for the most part have done it responsibly.

For the record though, like you, I don't consider the federal NDP to be in the same group as the Sask NDP. Different philosophy.
     
shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:55 AM
 
After re-watching much of the debate... Harper was really on the flat out defence the majority of the time. Which is what you would expect from whoever is the leader of the CPC. Duceppe really attacked hard and made Harper look quite inadequate to Quebecers. (which is not good for the CPC, as their desires for a majority looks like it has fully slipped away.. with another sleepwalking robotic performance like that.)

So for tonight.......

More of the same, with Layton trying to step it up a notch. Duceppe might put it into cruise control, and Harper will again get blasted probably the most on the economy, enviro, and then culture funding. (in that order) May has nothing to loose and way more to gain in English. DIon I think will be another x-factor.. he came out actually pretty good at the beginning of the debate yesterday. But we will have to see how things go down in English.












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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 2, 2008, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
Harper will again get blasted probably the most on the economy, enviro, and then culture funding. (in that order)
Yeah, and I'm still shocked at this. I just can't believe that they're hammering him on the economy. I mean say what you want, but Canada's economy has been shockingly good over the past couple years, and Harper himself is I would think the only one out of the leaders who can legitimately be called "economics-based." I was puzzled that he didn't hammer this home quite as clearly in the debate.

They're going at it by comparing his methods to those of Bush in the States, but I've always felt that Bush comparisons don't work at all with Harper – they're just about as far apart, intellectually/personality/politically speaking, as you could find within a conservative ideology. I also believe that the direct comparisons with what happened in the US and what's happened in Canada don't exactly jive either, since the Canadian bank system seems to have taken a more conservative financial lending tack.

Originally Posted by Eug
Yes, but the federal NDP has never formed the government, so it kind of makes your original point moot.
Well I guess my attempted point was that NDP parties who have formed governments, and who have done so based on the social-liberal policies that are evident in Jack Layton's NDP government, have failed miserably. When I look at the NDP's platform and see, literally, many billions in spending promised with the only way to pay for it earmarked as "corporate taxes," warning signs go up.

Let's face it, Harper has eliminated a big cash cow by cutting back the GST. Increasing spending at this point is not going to be nearly as easy.

greg
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Oct 2, 2008, 01:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
After re-watching much of the debate... Harper was really on the flat out defence the majority of the time.
When you're in the lead, you don't have to be on the attack. In fact, the better the NDP and Greens do in the election, the more votes that Dion loses, so even defending himself from them makes no sense.

Harper only needs to keep the Libs and Bloc from growing stronger. Tonight, he'll work to deflect Dion, and that all.
     
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Oct 2, 2008, 01:52 PM
 
Sounds about right.

Furthermore, the NDP platform is not a platform intended to win the election. They are smart enough to know they won't even come close. The NDP platform is built to steal votes from the now left-of-centre Liberals. And so far they seem to be succeeding.

It's interesting to see though that the NDP in some facets of their platform is much less radical than the Liberals.
     
shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 2, 2008, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
When you're in the lead, you don't have to be on the attack.


Correct ....... but Harper wishes to gain a majority and that will never happen without Quebec...

So by just sitting there and getting hammered by Gilles won't do him any good.

... looking forward.. if the CPC win this election and another minority government that might look for the most part like the old one.. the pressure will for surely be ON from that point... to perform, govern, and make the HOC work.

I mean the CPC calls an election, in hopes to win a majority and ends up maybe with less seats? (which at this point might actually happen)

then what..? Congratulations CPC you just polarized your opponents .. or perhaps even galvanized the opposition and the electorate thus bringing Harper's judgment/leadership into question.





or not/
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Eug
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:27 PM
 
So far, IMO, on the economy:

Dion: The language barrier is a huge problem. Seems to have salient points, but he's far too nervous and actually somewhat hard to understand. Plus, his "vote-centre" mantra seems a bit too contrived.
May: Remarkably well-spoken and reasoned arguments, and seems to be able to talk to the common person.
Layton: Layton still sounds like a used car salesman at times. Doesn't seem to have as much content in his statements despite being very confrontational.
Duceppe: Speaks better than Dion, but his harping on the exact same point over and over is tiresome.
Harper: Well-spoken, with facts, but comes across as trying to some brush problem areas under the rug.
     
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:31 PM
 
Attack Harper, attack Harper, attack Harper!!!!

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Eug
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:40 PM
 
Despite the fact I wasn't entirely impressed Layton's approach, I found one of his statements the most amusing out of anybody's.

He claims that NDP governments in power have had the best overall fiscal record in Canadian history, according to the Ministry of Finance... and then says Bob Rae is now with the Liberals.
     
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:46 PM
 
The thing I despise about Harper is that he's totally dishonest. He'll just say anything to please Canadians. At the end of the day, however, he never ever delivers. I don't understand how people can still trust this guy.
     
Eug
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Oct 2, 2008, 09:50 PM
 
Well, if it's a matter of trust:

Duceppe: I don't trust him, cuz he wants to rip apart the country.
Layton: He sounds a bit too much like a used car salesman, so I don't trust him.
Harper: I don't trust him, cuz he has no platform, and he wants to brush stuff under the rug.
Dion: I don't believe he has the trust of his own party, because of his wobbly leadership.
May: Seems sincere, but she can be because she won't get anyone in her party elected. (Maybe 1?)

Maybe May should be running the NDP. Hmmm...
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Oct 2, 2008, 10:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Well, if it's a matter of trust:

Duceppe: I don't trust him, cuz he wants to rip apart the country.
Layton: He sounds a bit too much like a used car salesman, so I don't trust him.
Harper: I don't trust him, cuz he has no platform, and he wants to brush stuff under the rug.
Dion: I don't believe he has the trust of his own party, because of his wobbly leadership.
May: Seems sincere, but she can be because she won't get anyone in her party elected. (Maybe 1?)

Maybe May should be running the NDP. Hmmm...
Yes...well it is an unfortunate situation. None of them seem honest except one that has no chance of winning and who's party doesn't have the competence to run a country if it won.
     
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Oct 2, 2008, 10:12 PM
 
Heh. When the leaders started talking out of turn and the moderator is trying to quiet the leaders down:

"Hey guys, I'm trying to ensure our viewers don't turn to Palin and Biden!"
     
shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:15 AM
 
First thoughts...

Layton came out really hard, and attacked everything. That sweater comment actually was really HILARIOUS..... mega points for that one.. if I was at the table I would not be able to hold back spitting out my fat guy Pepsi passed around by the CPC.

I felt that the Harper comment regarding that normal Canadians are not worried about losing their jobs/houses, and more worried about their stocks was actually really unfortunate for the CPC. It really made it seem that Harper was out of touch, and the other four really jumped on him from that point on.

..and towards the end when Dion reminded voters about Harper's handling of income trusts, breaking the fixed election law was one that might resonate very well. (I mean it is all about how you finish the debate,, and Dion and Layton finished strong.)

For the most part, it was much of the same, but better all around this time in English.

The format is the real winner here. A roundtable is just so much better, as it humanizes the attacks a bit as opposed to staring at a darkened audience. Kudos to Paikin.

Again. as expected it was a 4 on 1 gang tackle. I really have no clue how the CPC can hold onto the same amount of seats after the 14th.

Harper will go down in history as one of those leaders to never govern with a majority. (which seems to be the new norm.)

Regarding who won.. we will know after a few days, as you gotta give the people some time to digest what they saw.
( Last edited by shabbasuraj; Oct 3, 2008 at 12:34 AM. )
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
The thing I despise about Harper is that he's totally dishonest. He'll just say anything to please Canadians. At the end of the day, however, he never ever delivers. I don't understand how people can still trust this guy.
How can you lie and say he "never delivers," when he's cut taxes just as he said he would? Where's the GST at right now?

I mean, there's no question that there's no question that there are some things that he's flip-flopped on. But many times I feel those are good things. Income trusts, for example; that was a huge flip-flop, and one of the best ones the government could have made – it was a gaping hole in tax law that allowed corporations (and to a lesser extent people) to get around paying taxes to the government!

Same thing with the Atlantic Accord. There's no question that the feds have pulled back significantly, but he's right when he says that Danny Williams had issues with the previous government, and will have issues with any government. It's true. Danny Williams has made his name on "standing up for Newfoundlanders," and as long as he's fighting the "big bad federal government taking all our money" Newfoundlanders will love him for it.

There's no question Harper was under attack by everyone. I don't think any leader spoke on a point without criticizing the CPC position. Certainly a tough night.

Here's how I tend to look at it: yes, they're politicians, and they're experienced at saying what I want to hear so that I'll vote for them. But, when I pay my taxes, who would I want to give my money to? And I thought Harper was very effective, and made good sense, when he talks about the tax cuts to various areas which the other leaders keep bringing up: he said "it's our responsibility to evaluate programs on an ongoing basis, and cut the ones that aren't doing the job they should be doing."

To me, that makes sense. One need only look to the US or the previous Liberal government to see what happens when you give money to programs; it's effin hard to take it away. When I start making good money, I want my hard-earned tax dollars to be going to effective programs. Government bureaucracy is terribly inefficient as it is; I like it that someone's out there, making sure I'm not paying for some useless useless make-work program for Joe Sixpack.

greg
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shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post

Dion: The language barrier is a huge problem. Seems to have salient points, but he's far too nervous and actually somewhat hard to understand. .
Weird..

I understand him perfectly fine.

Sure he has a French accent.. so what?

I mean he gets his point across and I understand it perfectly.
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shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Heh. When the leaders started talking out of turn and the moderator is trying to quiet the leaders down:

"Hey guys, I'm trying to ensure our viewers don't turn to Palin and Biden!"
funny ..........but that comment just reified that the Canadian debate was to be considered second rate.

so I would have to not agree with SP with that one.
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:39 AM
 
The thing was though, I found it much better than the US debate.

It really is a fantastic format, and the debate itself was entertaining and lively. Really enjoyable. Certainly a solid job on the part of the organizers!

I think the sweater comment was one of the best as well. Or Harper's mischievous smile when he promised not to raise taxes… haha, classic!

greg
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 3, 2008, 12:44 AM
 
Haha, or Dion's comment when May interrupted him to make a comment:

"Why are you interrupting me?? I never interrupted you!"
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lpkmckenna
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Oct 3, 2008, 11:39 PM
 
I just finished watching it at CTV.ca. That TVO guy, Steve P-whatever, is just an awesome moderator.

I think Harper defended himself well enough to win a majority. I was surprised that he came out swinging at Dion.
I think Duceppe's comment about not being Prime Minister - while pointing at Dion, Layton, and May - was hilarious.
I'd like to drink a beer with Layton, but I'd never vote for him.
May brings nothing to Canadian politics.
Dion did fine, except he couldn't defend the Liberal party history from Layton. That hurt Dion and helped Harper, huge.
     
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Oct 9, 2008, 12:42 AM
 
Some people have strong feelings about the Conservatives based solely on ideological reasons but when you come right down to it, they will probably get a chance to run the country as a majority government. I think this will happen because the majority of Canadians will have looked at their minority government and see how many positive changes that benefit all Canadians were made even under a minority situation.

Canadians tend to like to give different parties right of centre a chance to rule if they have proven themselves in a minority situation. Let's be honest here. The Conservative party is not the PC party of the Joe Clark or Mulroney days but rather a western focused "Reform" party with an Ontario and Quebec wing. The PC party had become way to focused on Ontario and Quebec alienating Conservatives and Progressives who decided to start the Reform party in response.

No matter how you might feel about the Conservative party, they are still closer to centre than the Democrats in the US.
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shabbasuraj  (op)
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Oct 10, 2008, 11:45 AM
 
So..

WIll politics define the Thanksgiving discussion at your place this year?


Have a nice long weekend all.
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