[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

there's no such thing as a Palestinian, and no such thing as Palestinian water.

I wonder if 50 years from now people will look on Palestinian deniers in the same way we currently see Holocaust deniers ...

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

lpkmckenna, you seem to be taking the 'populist' view of siding with the poor helpless Arabs (who surprisingly are tremendously resourceful at getting their hands on ballistic ammunition). Generally speaking (and i'm not trying to insult you) your opinion is based on emotion in the short term imo. If you do have the time, have a look at the history of the region over the past 100 years, get familiar with the players involved, their agendas, their motives, their goals and most important their willingness to compromise for peace.

My opinion isn't based on emotion, and I'm not siding with the poor Arabs. And the compromises I hope from Israel lay no hardships on Israelis or compromise on Israel's right to exist. I just have no sympathy for the squatters or their agenda, and I think Israel's tacit support for them is wrong. I have more sympathy for homeless squatters in Canada - at least they are living in abandoned ruins, not trying to take over someone else's homes.

... (no there is no such thing as Palestine) ...

Why do people continue to mouth this nonsense. Israel and Palestine were both created at the same time, at the exact same moment. It's farcical revisionism to say otherwise.

He wants "freedom" for the poor Palestinians, but only if it was at Israel's expense.... nary a whisper that their suffering could easily be alleviated by any of the Muslim/Arab states that stretch from western Africa to south east asia........

There's no rational reason to expect the Palestinians to leave Palestine. Frankly, the very notion is stupid.

-Israel withdraws from the west bank, treaty or not. Establish the current frontiers (west bank, gaza, Golan, Jerusalem, etc) as a permanent red line. (This would not go against previously signed treaties, i think). What the Palestinians do on their side of the red line is their problem....cross the line tho and i'd be running for the bomb shelters if i were them.

I'm with you.

-Israel implements equality for citizens...by having same laws for Muslims and Jews and Christians regarding service in the armed forces (currently Muslims are exempt i believe, and i for one think that is racist). All Israeli citizens, like citizens from any country regardless of faith, swear a-legions to the country.... or...leave.

This is an internal matter. Israel also gives draft immunity to orthodox Jews, I think. As for oaths of allegiance, I think they're pointless posturing, whether in Israel or in Canada.

-The arabs states establish full diplomatic relations with Israel, on the current frontiers...and let go of the 1967 bs they keep chanting about. take it as a lesson NOT to illegally provoke a war.

Nations will bicker about borders. Besides, the terrorists from Palestine really aren't motivated over Israel's borders with Lebanon or whatever. One has little to do with the other.

Finally imo, If the Arabs are incapable of diplomacy or bartering a better deal without throwing a tantrum(war) well....though. it's not Israel's or anyone else's responsibility to pull them into the 21st century.

Arabs are capable of diplomacy, just ask Egypt.

My personal opinion..... if i had to choose between:
- a medieval society, whose laws are rooted in antiquity, openly racist towards to likes of others, where women and non-believers are discriminated against.
or
-one which established a real democracy, with minorities topping 20% (more than ANY muslim nation mind you), where women and men enjoy equal opportunities and freedom of worship to all it's citizens without having to resort to special 'favors' from bribed officials...

Heck, you have to be pretty disillusioned or brainwashed to pick the former imo.

I wouldn't live in a Muslim nation either. I couldn't live in Texas for the same reason.

BTW, there are orthodox communities in Israel that treat women just as poorly as an Arab nation might. A woman wearing red can expect to be pelted with stones, for instance.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

BTW, there are orthodox communities in Israel that treat women just as poorly as an Arab nation might. A woman wearing red can expect to be pelted with stones, for instance.

That's a dangerous combination. You can pelt a woman with a rock, then pelt her again for wearing red.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

By the way, I was accused of wanting the same thing the so-called "Palestinians" want in reverse, which is completely false.

You expect Palestinians to submit to Israeli authority or leave, which is exactly what the terrorists want of Jews. They want all of the Holy Land under a single authority, and so do you. Most Palestinians do not want this, just the terrorists; most Palestinians just want the Palestinian state promised to them in 1967.

I don't hate Islam or Muslims, but the so-called "Palestinians" as a clear majority hate Judaism and Jews.

I think the issue is irrelevant, frankly. The only relevant issue is Israel's right to exist and Palestine's right to exist.

I don't believe my religion is the only possible path to salvation, but Muslims appear to believe that.

Buddhists believe that. (No Buddhist is gonna tell you that it's possible to achieve Nirvana thru any method other than the Buddha's.) Again, I think the issue is irrelevant.

I don't want my people to control the entire world. I don't expect to be a majority religion in dozens of countries or 99% of the Middle East, as most Muslims expect. I don't expect to foist my religious laws on the secular world like many Muslims do.

Islam as political theory is stupid. We agree on something, at least.

I don't want to push those people into the sea in a war of annihilation, like the Arab powers pledged to do to the Jews multiple times in the 20th Century.

You just want to annihilate Palestine. Regardless, that's not the intention of the state of Israel, only sectarian fringe groups.

I only expect the hostile fifth column in tiny Israel to recognize the promise that is even alluded to in the Koran, that the Land of Israel belongs to the nation of Israel, and that since they have demonstrated they will refuse to live in peace, they need to go if there is to ever be hope of peace by human hands.

The failure of Palestinian authorities is not a failure of the Palestinian populace. If moronic gov't required national exile, we'd all be living on the moon.

And the content of the Koran or any other book is irrelevant. Waving it in the face of Muslims won't produce anything but hostility.

They can go to any number of 47 Muslim majority countries, and if those countries cared about peace they would welcome their brethren. If their lives are so terrible they need to end their occupation of the land of the Jewish people (at least the fraction of the land under Israel's dominion) and seek happiness elsewhere.

Like I said above, this is frankly stupid. The fact that you think evicting some squatters is unacceptable, but evicting an entire populace is ok, makes me doubt your sense of fairness.

And the entire Holy Land is not "the land of the Jewish people." In fact, it hasn't resembled anything like that in over 2500 years. Even during the Second Temple period, large portions of the Holy Land were not governed by Jews, but by Greeks (the Decapolis), Samaritans, and other ethnic groups. There were enormous cities like Sephoris and Tiberius (both built by Herod Antipas) than no Jew would enter.

You know, if this country really wanted to contribute to peace in the Middle East, the US could actually help by settling the so-called "Palestinians" in Iraq, or maybe in Afghanistan.

You know, that makes as much sense as resettling all Israel in Florida.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I wonder if 50 years from now people will look on Palestinian deniers in the same way we currently see Holocaust deniers ...

Classy.

'Palestine' was created in the year 135 CE by the Emperor Hadrian. Prior to that it was called Judea after the Kingdom of Judah which had been the local polity before the Romans came through an imposed their own special brand of peace on the region.

In the 70 or so years leading up to that Judea was the battlefield for three major revolts of the Judean people (who later became known as Jews) against Roman rule. The aforementioned 135 CE was the year in which Rome finally put down those rebellions for good after which Hadrian decided to try and erase all remaining vestiges of connection between the Jewish people and our former homeland (the Second Temple in Jerusalem having already been destroyed by Emperor Titus after the first of those rebellions which lasted from 66 - 70 CE; that temple, interestingly enough, having been renovated and expanded by Herod some 100 years before or so).

As part of the attempt to finish the job of severing the Jews from our land the Province of Judea was renamed the Province of Palestine, 'Palestine' being the Romanization of 'Philistine', the historical foes of the Israelites from whom the land of Canaan (now Israel) was originally wrested, and who in turn, archaeological evidence suggests, wrested the land from the original Canaanites. This does not mean, however, that the Palestinians of the modern age are descended from those ancient Philistines (about whom very little is actually known), but unfortunately the actual origins of the people now knows as Palestinians is so politicized as to be completely indecipherable.

So to claim that the Palestinians are a historical group of people is a lie. It is also a lie to claim that the Jews have no historical claim to the land that is now known as Israel. It is also a lie to deny the Holocaust.

But none of those things are actually relevant because Israel exists as a legitimate and independent nation and has for 60 years been the only pluralistic, democratic nation in the Middle East.

[lpkmckenna]

You've got some funny timeline issues in there. Jews were known by that name well before the revolts, the Temple of Herod was begun in 19 BCE but not completed for several decades. And Palestine always referred to the coastal areas, Hadrian extended it to the Jordan, and the Byzantines included Galilee and Samaria. The renaming probably had nothing to with severing anything. The region was governed by Ceasarea on the Palestine coast, so extending the name to the entire governed region probably happened naturally. And the ancient Philistines were of Greek extraction.

As for archeological evidence, the nation of Israel emerged out of the Canaanites; there was no conquest. The Bible Unearthed is a great book on the subject.

None of this has anything to do with the people called Palestinians today. Discussing Romans and Philistines is a smokescreen.

[Hawkeye_a]

lpkmckenna,
I'm not going to respond to everything you mentioned in response, but i will address one thing, just to illustrate an example of what i meant in my original post to you.

You mentioned, Egypt in relation to diplomacy...... look up:
-Anwar Sadat
-The Three Nos
-The Yom Kippur War(1973)
And you might see how Egypt suddenly "learned" diplomacy.

Of the Arab states, the only one, imo with leadership not interested in engaging in a war of annihilation is Jordan..... unfortunately due to a hostile/incompetent populace Jordans commitment to peace is shaky at best. Jordan also faces tremendous pressure, imo, from other Arab states which seek solidarity with their 'muslim brothers' against the 'evil joos'.

Look up the history dude. you got nothing to loose. in fact look it up on Wiki, or the many documentaries. I'll try and find some links for you when i find the time.

[stupendousman]

Israel steals and withholds water from people trying to eliminate them from the planet by any means necessary. Are they supposed to be helping those who have vowed their destruction?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

You've got some funny timeline issues in there. Jews were known by that name well before the revolts, the Temple of Herod was begun in 19 BCE but not completed for several decades. And Palestine always referred to the coastal areas, Hadrian extended it to the Jordan, and the Byzantines included Galilee and Samaria. The renaming probably had nothing to with severing anything. The region was governed by Ceasarea on the Palestine coast, so extending the name to the entire governed region probably happened naturally. And the ancient Philistines were of Greek extraction.

As for archeological evidence, the nation of Israel emerged out of the Canaanites; there was no conquest. The Bible Unearthed is a great book on the subject.

None of this has anything to do with the people called Palestinians today. Discussing Romans and Philistines is a smokescreen.

I'm sure my timeline is less than perfect, but it should be correct in broad strokes. I'm aware that there was a Palestine before Judea was renamed, but the point is that Judea was renamed to Palestine by the Romans. This did follow the Bar Kokhba revolt, and every source that I've read or heard from has said that Hadrian was waging a campaign to sever the Jews from Judea in memory. Admittedly many to most of my sources have been Jewish in one way or another, but the basic facts would seem to support the supposition.

Yeah, the archaeology of the ancient Jews/Israelites is a contentious issue. Again, there are plenty of sources that say one thing and plenty that say another. Indubitably there are a lot of archaeologists and historians out there who are letting their take on the matter be clouded by their beliefs in scripture one way or the other (even if they don't believe it's the literal truth, just being familiar with the Biblical account is likely to incline them towards supporting it). I haven't read The Bible Unearthed, but I'll definitely put it on my list.

It's not, however, a smokescreen to discuss the events of 2000 years ago. Part of the claim for the legitimacy of Israel is that the Jews have a historical tie to the land, which we certainly do (even more so if, as you say, our ancestors simply emerged out of the Canaanites rather than conquering them). Personally I don't find this to be necessary or important to the legitimacy of Israel, but many people, on both sides of the issue, do. The history of the name and people of modern Palestine is definitely even more important however, as it shows that there is no link between the modern Palestinian people and the Philistines of antiquity, other than that the Palestinians, at some point, ended up on the land the Philistines once lived on thousands of years ago. In many ways, simply calling them Palestinians is a PR move to try and draw a false connection between these particular Arab people and the land they largely no longer inhabit.

[Chongo]

The "Palestinians have a state, it's called Jordan.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

It amazes me how many times the same facts have to be gone over and over again with the same people regarding this issue, and how the anti-Israel side just keeps repeating the same age old lies over and over again despite the facts.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I wonder if 50 years from now people will look on Palestinian deniers in the same way we currently see Holocaust deniers ...

Cute. Call me when six million so-called "Palestinians" are dead. I'll cry and build museums for them if that ever comes to pass, and by the way, I'm not praying for that outcome. I want peace, and separating the warring parties from the people who have continually demonstrated their commitment to peace - my people - is the way to achieve that goal. But you want war. That's what you and your friends want - a prolongation and worsening of the conflict. Some of you dunderheads even want to see nuclear war in the holiest place on earth. That's what you get and support by siding with evil. And Holocaust denial is in vogue in left-wing circles today, the Holocaust being openly mocked by such left-wing luminaries as Norman Finkelstein, a self-hating atheist Jew who is also a rabid hater of Israel.

There was no land called Palestine until Rome renamed Judea - that's an historical fact. They named it to honor the Philistines, the ancient, extinct enemy of Israel, who were not Arab, btw. The Canaanite nations were not Arab, either, even though select Arab propagandists sometimes make that absurd claim because they have resort to lies to make their arguments. The propagandists also claim that the Temple Mount wasn't the site of the Holy Temple, even though historically their leaders admitted that it was indeed the location of the Temple.

Our patriachs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, lived in the land of Israel around 2000-1700 years before Christianity, and 2,600-2300 years before Islam. After a while we went into exile, after which G-d and Moses took us out of Egypt. Joshua Ben Nun conquered the land around 1400 (or as late as 1200 if you take the late scholarly date) BCE. Again, 1400 years before Christianity and 2100 years before Islam. Our King Solomon built the Holy Temple around 1000 BCE. It was knocked down 400 years later and then rebuilt a second time after we returned from exile in Babylon in the 5th century BCE. The Romans conquered and dispersed us around 150 CE, which was still a good 500 years before Mohammed.

Yes, the Muslim world controlled the region for centuries, and crusades were fought over it. But until the 20th Century the population there was surprisingly scant, unless you choose to go by Taliesin's wacky Arab propaganda figures. The Arabs in the area, who were mostly nomadic, did not identify as Palestinians. Far from it - their own leaders said Palestine was a myth created by the Jews. They never formed a kingdom there, in what Muslim historical revisionists falsely claim to be the third holiest place to Islam. There was never in all that time a king, or prince, or a government of Palestine for the simple reason that the land was not of importance to Muslims, except when the Christians and later the returning Jews wanted control.

And even though we were conquered in 150 CE, there was still a continual, albeit small settlement of Jews throughout that period that held to the land until we the decree went forth - endorsed both by Heaven and by the world's major powers in San Remo - that we, the nation of Israel should start coming home to the land of Israel, as was prophesied by every prophet of the Hebrew Scriptures.

The broad strokes of history, my friends and my enemies, have already been written - AND ISRAEL WINS. That should be comforting to my friends and distressing to my enemies. It has already been decreed, and prophesied many times over. The dominion of the children of Ishmael over the land of Israel ended in part in 1948, when the true owners of the land came home and the desert bloomed for the. Our Holy Zohar in portion Va'era tells us why the children of Ishmael were granted dominion over the land while we were in exile and it was barren. It let us know that after their dominion was complete and the children of Israel come home toward the end of days, the children of Ishmael would not give up easily but they will not succeed in conquering us as we bring this last, brutal exile to its conclusion. The Ishmaelites will make wars with all the nations on earth, and then in turn the children of Edom (which corresponds to the Christian world) will make war on them, until G-d Himself fights for His people. You can see the prophecies I'm detailing, the second part of which began to get fulfilled after September 11th. You don't have to believe me, but if you don't you should try to account to yourself how a book written a minimum of 700 years ago (and which possibly dates all the way back to the first century CE) could predict that these things would occur.

G-d told his friend Abraham that he and his descendants would be a blessing to the world, and that G-d would bless those who blessed them and curse those who cursed them. You can choose to curse us all you want, and call for our destruction. You can champion the illegimate, barbarous cause of the so-called "Palestinians," and in effect you are calling for a second Holocaust. That's fine. As for me, I will shout the truth to whoever desires to listen, and I will defend myself against those who attack me, my people and my G-d, who is also your G-d, if only you would come out of your hateful stupor and look at the truth. That is the choice before you.

[The Final Dakar]

Check, please.

[olePigeon]

I was OK with the explanation until you brought religion into it.

By the way, how come some Jews spell God as G-d?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

By the way, how come some Jews spell God as G-d?

Blasphemy to say or type any name of God.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Blasphemy to say or type any name of God.

That makes it impossible to not blaspheme. Any name referring to Jehovah is blasphemous, even G-d.

Look, I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, "That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah."

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Blasphemy to say or type any name of God.

Except not really. They're fine with "Adonai" in Hebrew. It just seems like they're not sure which name is equivalent to the tetragrammaton in English.

[nonhuman]

Well, except for the many verses in which we are told to swear in His name...

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I wonder if 50 years from now people will look on Palestinian deniers in the same way we currently see Holocaust deniers ...

You almost FAILED at Godwin's law.

-t

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Except not really. They're fine with "Adonai" in Hebrew. It just seems like they're not sure which name is equivalent to the tetragrammaton in English.

Both of you (Chuckit and olePigeon) are half-right. Depending on how strict you are (and I vary on this not very holy forum), even generic divine names from other languages get hyphenated by religious Jews. The corresponding names used in Hebrew are of far greater importance obviously, and we don't spell them out (except in holy books and scrolls) either. We say them while actively praying, but when not in prayer we do not say them as we would while in prayer (so as not to use a holy name in vain), nor do we write them out because we do not want a holy name to be erased or otherwise destroyed in case it were printed, even if it's indirect usage in the form of a corresponding name from another language.

The name you referred to Chuckit, commonly translated as L-rd, which we pronounce in place of the Ineffable Name (the Tetragrammaton) when reading it in prayer, is pronounced as you wrote it in prayer. When not in prayer religious Jews alter that name to Ado-Shem (again so as not to use it in vain). When we refer to the Ineffable Name more generally we use the word Ha-Shem (meaning The Name).

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

'Palestine' was created in the year 135 CE by the Emperor Hadrian.
etc etc etc

Who cares how the "palestinian" people came to be where they are now? They're there now, and they're being treated like crap. If you want to call them "mud people" instead of "palestinians," fine (as long as you're ok with them calling you something similar), but you have to still treat them like people. Anyone of them younger than 61 has grown up with the de facto "Israelis" and "Palestinians" their whole lives. It doesn't matter that 2000 years ago the word "Palestinian" was made up out of whole cloth any more than it matters that 5000 years ago the word "Israel" was, nor the fact that 300 years ago the "African American" people were invented by slave traders. African Americans have grown up with a shared culture of oppression under whites (less recently more so than more recently), and Palestinians have grown up with a shared culture of oppression under Israelis. At one point there was no such thing as "African American," but then suddenly there was. And at one point there was no such thing as "Palestinian," but then suddenly there was. However it happened, it's here now, and it has been for the entirety of (most of) their lives. You don't have more "right" to a cultural identity than they do. Not any more at least. A lifetime ago, you would have had a point.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Who cares how the "palestinian" people came to be where they are now? They're there now, and they're being treated like crap. If you want to call them "mud people" instead of "palestinians," fine (as long as you're ok with them calling you something similar), but you have to still treat them like people. Anyone of them younger than 61 has grown up with the de facto "Israelis" and "Palestinians" their whole lives. It doesn't matter that 2000 years ago the word "Palestinian" was made up out of whole cloth any more than it matters that 5000 years ago the word "Israel" was, nor the fact that 300 years ago the "African American" people were invented by slave traders. African Americans have grown up with a shared culture of oppression under whites (less recently more so than more recently), and Palestinians have grown up with a shared culture of oppression under Israelis. At one point there was no such thing as "African American," but then suddenly there was. And at one point there was no such thing as "Palestinian," but then suddenly there was. However it happened, it's here now, and it has been for the entirety of (most of) their lives. You don't have more "right" to a cultural identity than they do. Not any more at least. A lifetime ago, you would have had a point.

As I've already said, I don't think that ancient history is relevant to the situation. But some people do, or at least claim to as long as they think it supports their position. For those people I think it's important to discuss these things.

For myself, I agree with you: what matters is the current situation. However having put in a lot of time researching the coverage from both sides it's my opinion that, while things aren't all peaches and cream for the Palestinians, the Israelis are being unfairly and unjustly demonized. Sure, sometimes horrible things happen at the hands of IDF soldiers, and Israel should acknowledge, own up to, and face the consequences of those things. But the simple fact is that Israel has, for the past 60 years, made almost nothing but concessions and compromises to try and appease the Palestinians and the rest of the world and no matter what they do the attacks do not stop. Rockets are still launched almost daily at civilian targets. Leaders of other nations in the region and outside of it deny the legitimacy and call for the destruction of Israel.

It's easy for those of us who are relatively young to forget about the history, but the history shows that the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian forces have never once made a concession, never once taken a step towards peace, never once done anything other than make unreasonable demands and launch unprovoked attacks while the Israelis, generally, have only acted to defend themselves against aggression.

[Big Mac]

I agree with you in large part nonhuman, except I will state that the Arab side has agreed to weak concessions - it just has never lived up to its agreements. And why would it? When Arafat, YM"SH was talking about peace to the western media, he was really talking about the Islamic "Hudna," a temporary cessation of violence agreed to by Muslims until the Muslim side is strong enough to conquer the once stronger enemy it lied to. It's also completely permissible as a Muslim to lie to the non-believer. Israel gives away its precious land and withdraws into a tiny strip for hollow promises of peace; instead of peace what it gets is an emboldened Arab adversary who sees hatred, terrorism and warfare works against the weak Jew, and you get more incitement, hatred, stone throwing and terrorism. Arafat said many times that he had never changed his goal to eradicate Israel - only the tactics.

Some of you don't care about ancient history, and that's fine. It's a huge part of the record for those of us who care about the truth. And if you don't care that the Jewish people were living on their promised land long before Christianity and even longer before Islam, and that they never completely left after the Roman Exile despite brutal treatment by the governments that held the land, and that they finally came back against all odds to reclaim their sovereignty over their land, that's your prerogative. If you don't care that the Arab powers waged major offensive wars of annihilation against Israel in 1948, and 1967, and 1973, and each time Israel survived miraculously, that's your prerogative. If you don't care about the continual stream of low-intensity warfare in the form of terrorism and other hostilities perpetrated against Israel ever since it's founding, that's your prerogative. If you don't care (and the international community has shown it doesn't care) about the thousands of rockets fired from Gaza that have terrorized Israeli children for years (and only because of Israel pulling out of Gaza can terrorists fire their rockets today), that's your prerogative. If you don't care about actually solving the conflict and just want to continue down the path the world has put Israel on for the last decade and a half - gradual national suicide - that's your prerogative too. But these are the facts, whether you like it or not.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Some of you don't care about ancient history, and that's fine. It's a huge part of the record for those of us who care about the truth. And if you don't care that the Jewish people were living on their promised land long before Christianity and even longer before Islam, and that they never completely left after the Roman Exile despite brutal treatment by the governments that held the land, and that they finally came back against all odds to reclaim their sovereignty over their land, that's your prerogative. If you don't care that the Arab powers waged major offensive wars of annihilation against Israel in 1948, and 1967, and 1973, and each time Israel survived miraculously, that's your prerogative. If you don't care about the continual stream of low-intensity warfare in the form of terrorism and other hostilities perpetrated against Israel ever since it's founding, that's your prerogative. If you don't care (and the international community has shown it doesn't care) about the thousands of rockets fired from Gaza that have terrorized Israeli children for years (and only because of Israel pulling out of Gaza can terrorists fire their rockets today), that's your prerogative. If you don't care about actually solving the conflict and just want to continue down the path the world has put Israel on for the last decade and a half - gradual national suicide - that's your prerogative too. But these are the facts, whether you like it or not.

The only thing I'd add.. and I can't add it enough; Israel, the size of New Jersey.

Why the founding of this tiny piece of real estate is somehow more reprehensible than the manner in which any other governance known to man has founded their own is beyond me. What I have noticed is that people are awfully giving of other people's stuff.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The only thing I'd add.. and I can't add it enough; Israel, the size of New Jersey.

Why the founding of this tiny piece of real estate is somehow more reprehensible than the manner in which any other governance known to man has founded their own is beyond me. What I have noticed is that people are awfully giving of other people's stuff.

People are greedy and they want all the land they can get their hands on. Religion is just an excuse to dominate resources.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I wonder if 50 years from now people will look on Palestinian deniers in the same way we currently see Holocaust deniers ...

I Quote...
"Here he takes the massacre of millions of our men women and children, and he compares it to the plight of Arab refugees, alive on their kindred soil suffering certain anguish, but of course possessed of the supreme gift of life. This equation between massacre and temporary suffering which can easily be alleviated, is i think a distortion of any historic perspective." -Abba Eban (Youtube Link)


The strange thing that people fail to realize is that, in WWII, the Japanese and Germans were pummeled during the war; their economies, armed forces and social services in almost complete disarray. The region of India and Pakistan saw the largest migration on people to facilitate the inability of Indian muslims andhindus to live under one nation peacefully. I think(could be wrong), but the sheer number of people who were displaced when India/Pakistan got independence dwarfs the number of Palestinians who were displaces (most of whom left for the protection of their fellow muslim neighbors, at their behest).

All of that happened at around the same time Israel accepted the UN partition plan and the Arabs decided to settle difference by waging war.

Today, despite the outcomes of WWII, Germany and Japan have a first-world standard-of-living(despite being under the direct influence of the U.S. and USSR) for their citizens, and are major players economically in the world. India is an emerging nation, with a significant middle class. Israel is paving the way for a post-fossil-fuel world (look up "Better Place"), and has made the desert bloom without the gift of natural resources such as oil. All secular democracies as well for the most part.

If said nations could make peace, and move forward so significantly in a comparably similar time frame (while at the same time dealing with turbulent political climates(wars, fall of the USSR, etc)), why haven't the "Palestinians" done so ? Could it be because they are preoccupied with territorial expansion and extermination of non-muslims, or their desire to rule over non-muslims? There's a clear line separating the mentality here. Then over and above that, you need to factor in all the aid flowing into those blackholes in addition to all the 'oil money' through back channels, and yet these people are incapable of organizing, being productive and generating a surplus, yet immensely resourceful at getting and using ammunition ..... whose choice is that ? whose fault is that ? whose responsibility is that ?

Also, when most of the Jews were expelled or forced out of the muslim world (as is still happening to this very day), Israel could have abandoned them and used them as proxies to establish their own states, subjecting those populations to similar hardships as the Palestinians.... Israel on the other hand, chose the high road, integrating exiled Jews from all over the middle east and Africa (Operation Moses, Operation Joshua, Operation Solomon, etc..). Why then, did the Arab states, urge the Arabs to leave the land of Israel before launching their wars against the Jewish State, and after loosing those wars, abandon those Arabs displaced ? And why are they Israel's responsibility to accommodate now ?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Some of you don't care about ancient history, and that's fine. It's a huge part of the record for those of us who care about the truth. And if you don't care that the Jewish people were living on their promised land long before Christianity and even longer before Islam, and that they never completely left after the Roman Exile despite brutal treatment by the governments that held the land, and that they finally came back against all odds to reclaim their sovereignty over their land, that's your prerogative. If you don't care that the Arab powers waged major offensive wars of annihilation against Israel in 1948, and 1967, and 1973, and each time Israel survived miraculously, that's your prerogative. If you don't care about the continual stream of low-intensity warfare in the form of terrorism and other hostilities perpetrated against Israel ever since it's founding, that's your prerogative. If you don't care (and the international community has shown it doesn't care) about the thousands of rockets fired from Gaza that have terrorized Israeli children for years (and only because of Israel pulling out of Gaza can terrorists fire their rockets today), that's your prerogative. If you don't care about actually solving the conflict and just want to continue down the path the world has put Israel on for the last decade and a half - gradual national suicide - that's your prerogative too. But these are the facts, whether you like it or not.

For one thing, caring about ancient history doesn't give you the right to disregard the present (by saying they don't exist, which is how you started off this thread). I do care about ancient history, but I care about what's going on in the present more than I do about ancient history, as any sane person should. Secondly, someone having treated your ancestors shabbily doesn't give you the right to treat someone else shabbily in response. Tit for tat for tit for tat, if you engage in this one-ups-man-ship you legitimize the fears that prompted all those attacks. It doesn't matter who "started it." It's this kind of "our pedigree is better than theirs" mentality that is exactly what is fueling your enemies. Do you really want to emulate them? Lastly, you seem to be wearing these past hardships as a badge of honor, so why wouldn't you want more badges to adorn yourself with? Compared to what you're boasting about here, the current rocket launches should be a cake walk.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Compared to what you're boasting about here, the current rocket launches should be a cake walk.

And what of the "present" legality(or lack of) and responsibilities of rocket fire ? what obligations does Israel, and the international community have to those being subjected to said rockets ?

Also, past hardships are no excuse to subject said people to ANY hardships, no matter what the magnitude.

In recent history, it was Arab policy(anti-Israeli and expansionary) that caused the "self-proclaimed" refugee problem.... Now that the Arabs have lost the war.... let them bear the price for their decisions, why should the country that was opposed to that policy and those wars have to absorb the aftermath ? They keep mentioning the wall between Israel and the camps..... what of the walls on the otherside of their borders between Jordan and Egypt, the countries which are responsible for their current situation, those walls are alright ?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

People are greedy and they want all the land they can get their hands on. Religion is just an excuse to dominate resources.

Again, I maintain it's not about religion at this point. It's about trying to force the Hatfields and McCoys into a broom closet together. It's just not going to work and there's absolutely no reason to force it.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Again, I maintain it's not about religion at this point. It's about trying to force the Hatfields and McCoys into a broom closet together. It's just not going to work and there's absolutely no reason to force it.

The Hatfields and McCoys are already in the broom closet.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

And Holocaust denial is in vogue in left-wing circles today, the Holocaust being openly mocked by such left-wing luminaries as Norman Finkelstein, a self-hating atheist Jew who is also a rabid hater of Israel.

I've never read this guy's work, but everyone knows "self-hating Jew" is moron-code for any Jew who doesn't mindlessly defend Israel's every mistake. "Self-hating atheist Jew"?? Wow, he needs a shrink and a Rabbi!

Our King Solomon built the Holy Temple around 1000 BCE.

Actually, he just contracted the construction out to the Phoenecians. Why God ordered Moses to build a mobile temple that looked just like a Phoenecian design, or build the Art of the Covenant to look just like an Egyptian treasure box, remains a mystery.

The broad strokes of history, my friends and my enemies, have already been written - AND ISRAEL WINS.

Well crap, that's that then.

The Ishmaelites will make wars with all the nations on earth, and then in turn the children of Edom (which corresponds to the Christian world) will make war on them, until G-d Himself fights for His people.

Why would Christians be termed with a tribe that was forceably converted to Judaism by the Hasmoneans? What a reach.

You can see the prophecies I'm detailing, the second part of which began to get fulfilled after September 11th. You don't have to believe me, but if you don't you should try to account to yourself how a book written a minimum of 700 years ago (and which possibly dates all the way back to the first century CE) could predict that these things would occur.

Uh, because people will read anything and everything into such quirky works? Gonna defend Nostradamus next?

You can champion the illegimate, barbarous cause of the so-called "Palestinians," and in effect you are calling for a second Holocaust.

Wow, a textbook strawman. Good show.

That's fine. As for me, I will shout the truth to whoever desires to listen, and I will defend myself against those who attack me, my people and my G-d, who is also your G-d, if only you would come out of your hateful stupor and look at the truth. That is the choice before you.

Please don't shout. Just stand on the street corners with a sign, it's less iritating.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Some of you don't care about ancient history, and that's fine. It's a huge part of the record for those of us who care about the truth. And if you don't care that the Jewish people were living on their promised land long before Christianity and even longer before Islam, and that they never completely left after the Roman Exile despite brutal treatment by the governments that held the land, and that they finally came back against all odds to reclaim their sovereignty over their land, that's your prerogative. If you don't care that the Arab powers waged major offensive wars of annihilation against Israel in 1948, and 1967, and 1973, and each time Israel survived miraculously, that's your prerogative. If you don't care about the continual stream of low-intensity warfare in the form of terrorism and other hostilities perpetrated against Israel ever since it's founding, that's your prerogative. If you don't care (and the international community has shown it doesn't care) about the thousands of rockets fired from Gaza that have terrorized Israeli children for years (and only because of Israel pulling out of Gaza can terrorists fire their rockets today), that's your prerogative. If you don't care about actually solving the conflict and just want to continue down the path the world has put Israel on for the last decade and a half - gradual national suicide - that's your prerogative too. But these are the facts, whether you like it or not.

I care about all those things. I just won't let these things stand as a justification for atrocities by the state of Israel.

[Chuckit]

Inasmuch as Israel has usually seemed genuinely interested in peace and the terrorists they're up against never have, I tend to write off Israel's actions as the horrors of war. Fighting nicer would just end up hurting them, so it seems unreasonable to expect it.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

And what of the "present" legality(or lack of) and responsibilities of rocket fire ? what obligations does Israel, and the international community have to those being subjected to said rockets ?

Everyone has a responsibility to differentiate combatants from bystanders. Israel doesn't get a free pass on that.

Also, past hardships are no excuse to subject said people to ANY hardships, no matter what the magnitude.

All peoples have endured hardships at some point in the past. Your indictment precludes Israel from punishing all Palestinians just as much as it does Hamas from punishing all Israelis.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Inasmuch as Israel has usually seemed genuinely interested in peace and the terrorists they're up against never have, I tend to write off Israel's actions as the horrors of war. Fighting nicer would just end up hurting them, so it seems unreasonable to expect it.

Israel is still required to make an honest effort to avoid collateral damage. You can't toss all rules of engagement in the name of not "fighting nicer," if you do that you validate all the spurious grievances claimed by Israel's enemies over the years.

[Shaddim]

Hell, they're much nicer than I would have been. I would have been lobbing FAE into enemy territory decades ago.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Israel is still required to make an honest effort to avoid collateral damage. You can't toss all rules of engagement in the name of not "fighting nicer," if you do that you validate all the spurious grievances claimed by Israel's enemies over the years.

You may have been influenced by the anti-Israel propaganda over the defensive war Israel was forced to wage against the terrorists in Gaza. Here's an important article:

British Colonel: IDF Safeguarded Civilian Lives

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I care about all those things. I just won't let these things stand as a justification for atrocities by the state of Israel.

Name and detail the atrocities to which you refer, please.

And besides that, what of Arab atrocities against Israel? You know, like their leaders inciting them to riot over the Temple Mount and the supposed Jewish boogeyman threatening to liberate it (if only their fears were justified!), as they did this week and have done throughout the last two hundred years? How about Arafat misusing international aid meant to build up his people, with it going instead to bankroll terrorist operations and fill his own personal bank accounts? What about the suicide bombers who purposely murdered scores of Jewish civilians at places like discotheques, pizzerias and religious gatherings? What about the high praise in their culture of the "Shahid" who commits the terrorist attacks? Or the cartoons that they air promoting suicide terrorism? Or as I mentioned before, the thousands of rockets raining on Israel because the country naively thought quitting Gaza would promote peace? How about the textbooks that show Israel labeled as "Palestine," (in contravention to their "peace" agreements) as if the indoctrination their children get throughout the rest of their "culture" isn't enough? (Oh, and I forgot to mention the Koranic verses they teach their children that are subhuman and should be slaughtered.) Do such atrocities not count because the Arabs are "downtrodden," or because they don't have a strong conventional army? Why does it seem like your side believes it is completely reprehensible for the only Jewish country to defend itself, and yet its enemies somehow should have carte blanche to commit any acts of war and aggression they please?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The Hatfields and McCoys are already in the broom closet.

... and it's not working.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Everyone has a responsibility to differentiate combatants from bystanders. Israel doesn't get a free pass on that.

It's real hard when the enemy chooses to launch Katusha rockets from school yards and residential areas, and store weapons in mosques

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You may have been influenced by the anti-Israel propaganda over the defensive war Israel was forced to wage against the terrorists in Gaza. Here's an important article:

British Colonel: IDF Safeguarded Civilian Lives

No, Big Mac, I'm influenced by your own words. Your response to Palestinian claims that "Israelis are stealing my water" is "you don't exist, so you don't need water, and Israel can steal whatever it wants." If the water claims are bogus, that's all well and good. And if you you give them an ultimatum that they'll get a fair shake as soon as their attacks stop, even better. But what you literally said was "I'm not listening because you don't exist."

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

It's real hard when the enemy chooses to launch Katusha rockets from school yards and residential areas, and store weapons in mosques

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

That's true. But what are you supposed to do when your enemy attacks you from within the midst of children and civilians? Just stand there and watch your own children and civilians get slaughtered? I would say that the proper retaliation would be an extreme strike on a military target, but there are no military targets! Maybe Israel should respond to every attack from Gaza with an attack on one of the many Muslim nations that support Palestinian terrorism? Because if there's anything that's going to prevent Muslims and the world from condemning Israel's acts of self-defense it's attacking people who can't be directly linked to the terrorism that victimizes Israeli citizens...

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

No, Big Mac, I'm influenced by your own words. Your response to Palestinian claims that "Israelis are stealing my water" is "you don't exist, so you don't need water, and Israel can steal whatever it wants." If the water claims are bogus, that's all well and good. And if you you give them an ultimatum that they'll get a fair shake as soon as their attacks stop, even better. But what you literally said was "I'm not listening because you don't exist."

How did you get that from an article that was all about Richard Kemp saying he thought Israel made an admirable (but imperfect as ever) effort to spare civilians in Gaza?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

You haven't told me what you think is wrong with my views. There is no question that a percentage of innocents suffer in all wars, and there is no question that Israel isn't perfect. (Indeed, I fault the country for not doing what must be done because of political cowardice, which has meant unnecessary suffering and death on both sides.) You tell me I'm wrong, but I tell you that the physical separation of two diametrically opposed peoples is the only hope for true and lasting peace in the region, and the Arabs there have dozens upon dozens of Arab or Muslim majority countries to which they could go and live without feeling compelled to fight any Jews there (because nearly all the Jews were kicked out of those countries in 1948). But there are zero other Jewish majority countries for the Israelis to go to, and there is no other place on earth that can serve as the homeland for the nation of Israel other than the land of Israel. Any other solution proposed, including the creation of a new terrorist mini-state called Palestine, will just result in more bloodshed.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Name and detail the atrocities to which you refer, please.

I'll come back to this one...

And besides that, what of Arab atrocities against Israel? ... How about Arafat using international aid meant to build up his people instead going to bankroll terrorist operations and fill his own personal bank accounts? What about the suicide bombers who purposely murdered scores of Jewish civilians at places like discotheques, pizzerias and religious gatherings? ... Or as I mentioned before, the thousands of rockets raining on Israel because the country naively thought quitting Gaza would promote peace?

Have Mossad capture the preps and have a trial. Or hell, have Mossad assasinate them, I don't care. Seek justice for the preps without being deliberately careless about civilians and bankrolling a bunch of hyper-zealous squatters.

You know, like their leaders inciting them to riot over the Temple Mount and the supposed Jewish boogeyman threatening to liberate it (if only their fears were justified!), as they did this week and have done throughout the last two hundred years?

You claim it's a boogeyman and then advocate it at the same time? Two-faced much?

What about the high praise in their culture of the "Shahid" who commits the terrorist attacks? Or the cartoons that they air promoting suicide terrorism?

What about the high praise in Israeli culture for deporting and seizing the land of every Arab who doesn't want to be an Israeli? Or the op-eds about "non-people?" I can play this game all day.

How about the textbooks that show Israel labeled as "Palestine," (in contravention to their "peace" agreements) as if the indoctrination their children get throughout the rest of their "culture" isn't enough?

How about forums posts that label Palestinians as "non-people?" Frankly, complaining about textbooks and labels and indoctrination is a joke. My country gets smeared as "baby seal murderers" and "pro-American yes-men" and "socialist paradise" the world over; sticks and stones, ya know? Let's focus on the real issues.

Do such atrocities not count because the Arabs are "downtrodden," or because they don't have a strong conventional army?

Did you just refer to "high praise" and "cartoons" and "labels and indoctrination" as atrocities? And Arafat enriching himself is simple political corruption, not an atrocity. And if Palestine was a real nation, they might have the power to control terrorists, because they can't now.

Why does it seem like your side believes it is completely reprehensible for the only Jewish country to defend itself, and yet its enemies somehow should have carte blanche to commit any acts of war and aggression they please?

Another textbook example of stuffing words in your opponent's mouth. I give carte blanche to no one, and give Israel every right to defend itself - ethically.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

How about forums posts that label Palestinians as "non-people?".

This is a blatant straw man. Either that or you're completely misunderstanding what's been said.

No one is denying that the Palestinians are people. What is being denied is that they are Palestinians, in any meaningful sense. The argument is that there are no Palestinian people, only Arab people, Muslim people, and what have you. It's the label of Palestinian that's being disputed, not the nature of the so-labelled people as human beings.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

There is no question that a percentage of innocents suffer in all wars, and there is no question that Israel isn't perfect. (Indeed, I fault the country for not doing what must be done because of political cowardice, which has meant unnecessary suffering and death on both sides.)

Hey, we agree that most Israeli leaders are political cowards! Most of the Palestinian leaders are cowards too. Of course, the Palestinian leaders are afraid of violent and hyper-religious dissidents, while Israeli leaders are afraid to stand up to squatters and some orthodox folks (who are so pacifist they won't join their own national army).

You tell me I'm wrong, but I tell you that the physical separation of two diametrically opposed peoples is the only hope for true and lasting peace in the region...

You're right. But squatters from the Israeli side are crossing that line and worsening the tension.

... and the Arabs there have dozens upon dozens of Arab or Muslim majority countries to which they could go and live without feeling compelled to fight any Jews there ...

They have an Arab and Muslim territory already. You just wanna take it from them because some lines in a holy book make you think you're entitled to it.

But there are zero other Jewish majority countries for the Israelis to go to, and there is no other place on earth that can serve as the homeland for the nation of Israel other than the land of Israel.

Israelis don't have to move; they just need to stop moving.

Any other solution proposed, including the creation of a new terrorist mini-state called Palestine, will just result in more bloodshed.

A line is a line. You will be surrounded by Arabs whether those Arabs call themselves Palestinians or not. Why you think that line needs to be the Jordan river is a religious, not a practical, preference.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

This is a blatant straw man. Either that or you're completely misunderstanding what's been said.

No one is denying that the Palestinians are people. What is being denied is that they are Palestinians, in any meaningful sense. The argument is that there are no Palestinian people, only Arab people, Muslim people, and what have you. It's the label of Palestinian that's being disputed, not the nature of the so-labelled people as human beings.

I can see why you accused me of a straw-man. I meant "a non-people" not just "non-people." That's not what I intended.

Like I've said so many times, Israel and Palestine were established at the same time by the same international body. The Palestinian people were cheated out of their entitlement by wars between Israel and the surrounding Arab neighbours. It's in Israel's power to end the cheating.

[Big Mac]

I have lpkmckenna on ignore now so I'll choose to not look at what he's writing, but in regard to the so-called "Palestinians" being a non-people, if he's trying to say I regard them as sub-human, that is clearly false. He may well be trying to twist my words.

The term people is often used in the context of these kinds of discussions as meaning a unique and distinct, independent group with traits like a common language and longstanding history and national identity, and in that context they are not a "people." That group was a recent amalgamation of undifferentiated Arabs from surrounding places, which started settling in sizable numbers in the region in the 19th and 20th centuries at the same time that Jews were returning to reclaim their land. The Arab Palestinian identity didn't get embraced popularly until the advent of the terrorist PLO in the 1960s (a few years before Israel's liberation of land in the Six Day War, which means the original goal of the PLO was destruction of the country even before it gained Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria or Gaza), and that identity was predicated on the wholesale rejection of the Jewish state and acceptance of warfare and terrorism, with the overriding goal being the eventual eradication of the country. A recently fabricated popular identity that is predicated on evil intent and propped up by historical revisionism is one that I reject and will continue to reject as illegitimate and worthless, even if G-d forbid, there are still Arabs calling themselves that wretched name generations from now.

I reject the Arab Palestinian moniker just as I would reject a German choosing to call himself a Nazi, or as I stated previously, an Arab identifying as Al Qaeda. They are all illegitimate identities, all predicated on warfare, terror and hatred, all inherently rooted in evil, and all which should not be accepted by civilization.