[olePigeon]

Gods I love xkcd.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Okay I'll bite.
What does this have to do with chiropractors? Or for that matter, politics?

[Atheist]

I guess he wants to start a chiropractor rant and figured this is as good a way as any to start...

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Okay I'll bite.
What does this have to do with chiropractors? Or for that matter, politics?

They pretend they're doctors by wearing lab coats and using clipboards. This comic exemplifies exactly what Chiropractors do, expel bullsh*t while looking like they know what they're doing. They even call each other "doctor," which is pretty damn insulting to real medical doctors. A "Doctor in Chiropractic," of course, being an unaccredited academic degree. Might as well be a Professional Bullsh*t Degree.

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I guess he wants to start a chiropractor rant and figured this is as good a way as any to start...

Pretty much.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

oooooooookay.

Bad experience with a Chiropractor, I take it?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Bad experience with a Chiropractor, I take it?

I've never been to a Chiropractor. I despise their practice for taking advantage of people who would be better served seeing a real doctor or other medical professional.

[shifuimam]

I think it depends entirely on the individual chiropractor.

There are those who just assist in dealing with back problems that may not be bad enough to require surgery. Then there are those who buy into the whole "aligning the spine will make you immortal" line of crap.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I think it depends entirely on the individual chiropractor.

There are those who just assist in dealing with back problems that may not be bad enough to require surgery..

Which is exactly the kind of treatment my father received for his crippling lower back pain, he's 60 now and able to out-work most men in their 30s. He no longer sees the chiropractor, and hasn't for many years. The Chiropractor also worked with him to plan out a stretching regiment to lessen the effects of his physically demanding job, those have also worked out great for him.

Some Chiros are quacks, some priests are pedophiles, and some scientists fudged AGW data. This does not automatically invalidate every person in those categories.

[olePigeon]

There are some chiropractors within the field of chiropractic asking for reform, to rebuild the practice using evidence-based guidelines; an attempt to turn it into a real professional health care field. However, that would require oversight by real doctors and professionals, which is contrary to some of founding principles of chiropractic: healing without medicine.

Vertebral subluxation does absolutely nothing, with the possible exception of temporarily relieving back pain. At best you get a good stretching, at worst you suffer from stroke and die. Prior to 2008, numerous peer reviewed studies demonstrated the the lack of effectiveness in chiropractic. However, in recent years the leading Chiropractic bodies have been filing libel and copyright lawsuits against medical professionals and publishers in tactics all-to-similar to Scientology.

When licensed masseuses and physical therapists started aggressively advertising nearly identical services to chiropractic sans homeopathy and alternative medicine crap (and being covered by many insurance plans), chiropractic has moved to support alternative medicine and hard lobbying through the Congress.

Snake oil salesmen. That's all they are. I applaud those individuals trying to make a change, but I see two very huge problems: One, they're not going to able to make a dent in the chiropractic political machine; and two, what's the point of being a chiropractor when you can become a real, licensed physical therapist and know you can help people.

I think it's because physical therapists don't get lab coats and clip boards, and don't get to run around calling each other "doctor." Not nearly as fun.

[sek929]

...and yet again not a single word about a man in his 40s nearing early retirement thanks to back pain and the same man today strong as a bear without the aid of 'real' doctors. I suppose the Chiro fooled him into thinking his back was fixed for 20 years, which is quite a feat.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by sek929 

...and yet again not a single word about a man in his 40s nearing early retirement thanks to back pain and the same man today strong as a bear without the aid of 'real' doctors. I suppose the Chiro fooled him into thinking his back was fixed for 20 years, which is quite a feat.

Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind of evidence, so I'm not going to attempt to change your opinion. I acknowledge the benefits of stretching and massage. Your father could have had a pinched nerve, slipped disc, who knows. Simply stretching and messaging the area could have helped, and good stretching exercises keep him nimble and healthy. I'm not a doctor, and neither is the chiropractor, so I couldn't say.

However, your father can get all that without the sermon about magical energies and pseudo-medical jargon regarding his nervous system; and it would have been covered by his health insurance. He also wouldn't have risked further injury or death. Unfortunately for you and your dad that he didn't see a doctor or license medical professional, because not only could you know what really happened that helped your father, but the doctor could determine if there is a hereditary risk for you and any children.

In any event, glad to hear your dad's doing well. My dad has a ruptured disc and is awaiting for FDA approval for his surgery (which is very soon) to get a full disc replacement, so I can only guess what your dad went through. I know it's painful.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

However, your father can get all that without the sermon about magical energies and pseudo-medical jargon regarding his nervous system; and it would have been covered by his health insurance. He also wouldn't have risked further injury or death. Unfortunately for you and your dad that he didn't see a doctor or license medical professional, because not only could you know what really happened that helped your father, but the doctor could determine if there is a hereditary risk for you and any children.

I've seen several chiropractors over the years and never have I had one lay the metaphysical garbage on me. If they had I would have walked out and found another. The last chiropractor I saw was at the recommendation of the orthopedist, and the chiropractor was a member of that ortho's practice. When I expressed surprise that a medical doctor was referring my to a chiropractor, as well as employing one, he said "they've come a long way from where they used to be, medically speaking".

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

I've seen several chiropractors over the years and never have I had one lay the metaphysical garbage on me. If they had I would have walked out and found another.

That simply means they changed their sales pitch.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

The last chiropractor I saw was at the recommendation of the orthopedist, and the chiropractor was a member of that ortho's practice. When I expressed surprise that a medical doctor was referring my to a chiropractor, as well as employing one, he said "they've come a long way from where they used to be, medically speaking".

Did he refer you, or did you ask for one? I've talked to many doctors who would never recommend one, but would refer you to one if you requested it. Being apart of your doctor's practice ensures the money stays within their group. My guess is that his or her partnership is out of convenience. He or she may have checked you and found nothing particularly wrong with you, so sending you to a chiropractor at your own request wouldn't have been too much of a risk; if you did run into any trouble, your chiropractor knows your doctor.

Chiropractors may have come a long way, but they're still not in any way board certified by any medical or professional group; and none of their "colleges" or "universities" are accredited by any medical or academic accreditation body.

I think they need to pass Federal law requiring Chiropractors to put a big sign on their doors or windows and in their advertisements, stating that they are not medical doctors; that their service is not intended to treat or cure any ailment.
It's all the masquerading that pisses me off. I don't care if people go to faith healing or whatever, so long as it's clear what they're getting in to. Chiropractors purposefully make it look like they're medical doctors, and that practice needs to be stopped or mediated.

The fact that I have arguments with people over whether or not they're "real" doctors is my biggest concern, and the fact that they perpetuate the ambiguity of it all is disturbing. I'd feel a lot better and just not care if the distinction was made clear. Unfortunately it's not ever going to be because of their lobbying machine.

[Laminar]

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Did he refer you, or did you ask for one? I've talked to many doctors who would never recommend one, but would refer you to one if you requested it.

By referred, I mean that the doctor, an accomplished and very highly rated orthopedic surgeon said "why don't we try having you see the chiropractor and see if that helps. We have two on staff or I can give you a referral for an outside practitioner".

Being apart of your doctor's practice ensures the money stays within their group. My guess is that his or her partnership is out of convenience. He or she may have checked you and found nothing particularly wrong with you, so sending you to a chiropractor at your own request wouldn't have been too much of a risk; if you did run into any trouble, your chiropractor knows your doctor.

Your guess would be exactly that, a guess, meaning you don't know but you are making assumptions based solely on an opinion that you have no interest or intention of changing. And see also the above "Or I can refer you to an outside practitioner". This isn't some fly-by-night quack, this is a highly regarded orthopedic clinic, with a couple of the top rated orthopedists in the state. And it sure hurt a hell of a lot for there being nothing wrong.

Chiropractors may have come a long way, but they're still not in any way board certified by any medical or professional group; and none of their "colleges" or "universities" are accredited by any medical or academic accreditation body.

The New York State Board of Regents is an academic accreditation body that certifies chiropractic colleges in this state. You are also required to keep and maintain a license to practice here. They are subject to the rules of the state dept. of health.

I think they need to pass Federal law requiring Chiropractors to put a big sign on their doors or windows and in their advertisements, stating that they are not medical doctors; that their service is not intended to treat or cure any ailment.
It's all the masquerading that pisses me off. I don't care if people go to faith healing or whatever, so long as it's clear what they're getting in to. Chiropractors purposefully make it look like they're medical doctors, and that practice needs to be stopped or mediated.

I have never heard a chiropractor claim to be a medical doctor, or even imply it.

The fact that I have arguments with people over whether or not they're "real" doctors is my biggest concern, and the fact that they perpetuate the ambiguity of it all is disturbing. I'd feel a lot better and just not care if the distinction was made clear. Unfortunately it's not ever going to be because of their lobbying machine.

I've heard nurses tell patients that the "doctors don't know shit" and imply that their knowledge surpasses that of doctors. I've heard that a lot. I find that of far more concern and more dangerous than whether or not chiropractors are called a 'doctor of chiropractic". I call my dentist doctor, but I wouldn't let him work on my ruptured spleen.

Regardless, this is a no-win argument because you are obviously set in your opinion on the topic, and nothing is going to change your mind. My experience with chiropractic care has been good, and if need be I will see one again. I'll take the opinion of my ortho over yours, and leave it at that.

[dedalus]

For what it’s worth (nothing, I know), I have met plenty of actual doctors who didn’t know shit about anything, either. It all depends on the individual, as far as I can tell. There’s this one guy I went to school with, he’s a surgeon now, dumbest **** you can imagine, I’d rather take my chances with a witch doctor than submit to his scalpel.

[ort888]

http://www.craniosacral.co.uk/cstchildren.html

Have you guys seen this sort of crap? This was recommended to us by a local hippy-dippy.

I was like, yeah... uh... I'll look into that. Thanks.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

By referred, I mean that the doctor, an accomplished and very highly rated orthopedic surgeon said "why don't we try having you see the chiropractor and see if that helps. We have two on staff or I can give you a referral for an outside practitioner".

Alright, well, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

The New York State Board of Regents is an academic accreditation body that certifies chiropractic colleges in this state.

No, it doesn't. It sets requirements for becoming a licensed chiropractor. The Board of Regents does not and has not accredited any chiropractic schools. Accreditation is left to the CCE.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

You are also required to keep and maintain a license to practice here. They are subject to the rules of the state dept. of health.

Yes, because in 48 other states in the U.S. they're exempt from malpractice lawsuits. I'm glad N.Y. has these requirements, for all the good it does.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

I have never heard a chiropractor claim to be a medical doctor, or even imply it.

Maybe they're not allowed to in New York. Here in California it's very prominent.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Regardless, this is a no-win argument because you are obviously set in your opinion on the topic, and nothing is going to change your mind. My experience with chiropractic care has been good, and if need be I will see one again. I'll take the opinion of my ortho over yours, and leave it at that.

I already said I can't change your mind, either. Anecdotal evidence makes it too difficult.

Originally Posted by ort888 

Craniosacral Therapy & Children

Have you guys seen this sort of crap? This was recommended to us by a local hippy-dippy.

I was like, yeah... uh... I'll look into that. Thanks.

Yeah. "Chiropractic Pediatrics." Licensed in New York or not, bunch of sick f*ckers.

[andi*pandi]

My husband swears by his chiropractor. He goes for back pain now and again. However I went and was very turned off by the experience. The first time a few years ago was for some shoulder pain, I went for a week or two. He used a little hammer and damned if I could tell if what he was doing was helping or just time passing and advil.

Last year I was experiencing extreme arm numbness and shoulder pain, out of desperation I tried him as well as physical therapy. Again with the hammer, again nothing helped. I was also pressured to sign on to 3ce weekly visits, for a year. There was bullshit about "energy". I kept pointing out my pain areas and just the hammer click. I gave it 3 months this time and the most helpful thing in his office is the automatic heated massage table. The physical therapist eventually helped correct the pain, after seeing an ortho who ordered real films (orthos comments at seeing chiro films: what century were these done in?). This guy does call himself Doctor.

Turns out I had a ruptured disc. Chiro never mentioned it. Strike 3 for him. Never again.

There is the chance it's just him who's a quack, but I'd put my trust in Physical therapy any time.

[olePigeon]

Here's an interesting read. Take it as you will. The author is a pretty regular contributor to Quackwatch and Skeptic. Also, just take a minute to read up on the history of Chiropractic and the guy that founded it. He really was your stereotypical snake oil salesman, he just managed to strike it rich with his latest scam that, unfortunately, caught on.

Fatal Adjustments
How Chiropractic Kills

by J. D. Haines, MD

When Kristi Bedenbaugh wanted relief from a bad sinus headache, the 24 year-old former beauty queen and medical office administrator made the mistake of consulting a chiropractor. An autopsy performed on Kristi revealed that the manipulation of her neck had split the inner walls of both vertebral arteries, resulting in a fatal stroke.

The chiropractor’s violent twisting of her neck caused the torn arterial walls to balloon and block the blood supply to the posterior portion of her brain. Studies confirmed that the blood clots formed on the two days she received her neck adjustments.

Kristi died in1993. Four years later, South Carolina’s State Board of Chiropractic Examiners fined the chiropractor $1000 and sentenced him to 12 hours of continuing medical education in the area of neurological disorders and emergency response.

Supporters of chiropractic are quick to claim that cases like this are rare. Try telling that to Kristi’s family — no matter how great the odds, the outcome was 100% fatal for her. The real problem is that there are no valid statistics concerning the risk of stroke after neck manipulation. Aside from anecdotal reports like Kristi’s and a few surveys, little clinical research has addressed this problem.

Two recent studies reveal the tip of the iceberg. In 1992, researchers at the Stanford Stroke Center surveyed 486 California neurologists regarding how many patients they had seen within the previous two years who had suffered a stroke within 24 hours of neck manipulation. One hundred seventy-seven neurologists responded, reporting 55 patients between the ages of 21 and 60. One patient died and 48 were left with permanent neurological impairment.

A review of 116 journal articles published between 1925 and 1997 reported 177 cases of neck injury caused by manipulation. Sixty percent of these cases resulted from injury inflicted by chiropractors.

The real tragedy is that cervical spine manipulation is totally worthless in treating problems like Kristi Bedenbaugh’s. So, however rare the incidence of adverse outcome, the risk always outweighs any perceived benefit. There is no medically proven benefit whatsoever to chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine.

While it may be argued that chiropractic is helpful for some cases of low back pain, the claims that over 90 different medical illnesses may be successfully treated by spinal manipulation is without any scientific evidence. The Medical Letter on Drugs and Therapeutics stated on May 27, 2002, “For neck and low back pain, trials have not demonstrated an unequivocal benefit of chiropractic spinal manipulation over physical therapy and education.” The report continues: “Repeated reports of arterial dissection and stroke associated with cervical spine manipulation and cauda equina syndrome associated with manipulation of the lower back suggest a cause and effect relationship.”

The report concludes, “Spinal manipulation can cause life-threatening complications. Manipulation of the cervical spine, which has been associated with dissection of the vertebral artery, appears to be especially dangerous.”

The major problem with chiropractic is that it was founded upon the false premise that correction of vertebral subluxations will restore and maintain health. Chiropractic philosophy maintains that disease or abnormal function is caused by interference with nerve transmission due to pressure, strain, or tension upon the spinal nerves due to deviation or subluxation within the vertebral column.

Daniel David Palmer, a tradesman who posed as a magnetic healer, discovered chiropractic in 1895. Palmer’s first patient was a deaf janitor who had his hearing restored after Palmer adjusted a bump on his spine. According to Dr. Edmund Crelin, “Magnetic healing was a popular form of quackery in the 19th century in which the healers believed that their personal magnetism was so great that it gave them the power to cure diseases.” Palmer summarized his new science:

I am the originator, the Fountain Head of the essential principle that disease is the result of too much or not enough funtionating [sic]. I created the art of adjusting vertebrae, using the spinous and transverse processes as levers, and named the mental act of accumulating knowledge, the cumulative function, corresponding to the vegetative function — growth of intellectual and physical-together, with the science, art and philosophy — Chiropractic. It was I who combined the science and art and developed the principles thereof. I have answered the question — what is life?

Palmer’s egotistical and ridiculous claims are familiar to those who have studied leaders of religious cults. Incredibly, Palmer’s philosophy remains the basis of modern-day chiropractic thinking. Palmer’s claim that chiropractic answers the question, “What is life?” would be laughable if not for a gullible public who readily accept quackery.

The public is led to believe that physicians disparage chiropractors out of some sort of professional jealousy. Yet there is only one reason that physicians judge chiropractors so harshly. Medicine is scientifically based, whereas chiropractic is not supported by a single legitimate scientific study.

In the first experimental study of the basis of chiropractic’s subluxation theory, Dr. Edmund S. Crelin, then an anatomy professor at Yale University, demonstrated that chiropractic theory was erroneous. As retired chiropractor Samuel Homola writes, “Using dissected spines with ligaments attached and the spinal nerves exposed, he used a drill press to bend and twist the spine. Using an ohm meter to record any contact between wired spinal nerves and the foraminal openings, he found that vertebrae could not be displaced enough to stretch or impinge a spinal nerve unless the force was great enough to break the spine. Crelin concluded, ‘This experimental study demonstrates conclusively that the subluxation of a vertebrae as defined by chiropractic — the exertion of pressure on a spinal nerve which by interfering with the planned expression of Innate Intelligence produces pathology — does not occur.’”

Physicians have long recognized that spinal nerves are commonly pinched by bony spurs and herniated discs, resulting in musculoskeletal symptoms, without any effect on visceral function, as claimed by chiropractic. Chiropractic theory ignores that the autonomic nervous system maintains the function of the body’s organs, even in spinal cord lesions.

Chiropractors are notorious for performing unnecessary X-rays and so-called maintenance care that often corresponds to the duration of the patient’s insurance coverage. The greatest threat of chiropractic, however, may be to infants and children. As Homola explains, “Parents are lured by claims that spinal adjustments at an early age can prevent the development of disease and that vaccination may not be necessary.” There remains no medical or scientific basis for the treatment of infants and children. A more subtle danger represented by chiropractic is the campaign for public acceptance as primary care providers. The clinical training received by chiropractic students is greatly inferior to that of medical students and residents.

In today’s climate of government-sanctioned alternative therapies, the ignorant consumer may be fooled by slick marketing to believe that chiropractors are qualified to treat a broad range of diseases. As alternative medicine gains wider acceptance, public health will surely suffer. Stephen Barrett, MD, has written that the real enemy of chiropractors is themselves:

Your basic enemy is yourself. Your colleagues engaged in unscientific practices, economic rip-offs, cheating insurance companies, selling unnecessary supplements and generally overselling themselves. Most chiropractors would like to believe that the number of such colleagues is small. I think it is large and may even be a majority.

As far back as 1924 essayist H. L. Mencken recognized chiropractors as quacks:

Today the backwoods swarm with chiropractors, and in most States they have been able to exert enough pressure on the rural politicians to get themselves licensed. Any lout with strong hands and arms is perfectly equipped to become a chiropractor. No education beyond the elements is necessary. The takings are often high, and so the profession has attracted thousands of recruits — retired baseball players, work-weary plumbers, truck-drivers, longshoremen, bogus dentists, dubious preachers, cashiered school superintendents. Now and then a quack of some other school — say homeopathy — plunges into it. Hundreds of promising students come from the intellectual ranks of hospital orderlies.

As practiced today, chiropractic is a threat to public health. In an age where phenomenal medical discoveries have improved the health and extended average longevity to almost 80 years, chiropractic remains a holdover from the days of the snake oil salesmen. Every year trusting and naïve Americans suffer needless injury and death due to dangerous cervical spine manipulation. The investigation of the true frequency of complications from chiropractic is a duty that public health officials have long neglected and should undertake at once.

[RobOnTheCape]

I've seen quite a few studies which show that people with back ailments have better results with massage therapy over chiropractors AND orthopedic doctors.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

When Kristi Bedenbaugh wanted relief from a bad sinus headache, the 24 year-old former beauty queen and medical office administrator made the mistake of consulting a chiropractor. An autopsy performed on Kristi revealed that the manipulation of her neck had split the inner walls of both vertebral arteries, resulting in a fatal stroke.

The chiropractor’s violent twisting of her neck caused the torn arterial walls to balloon and block the blood supply to the posterior portion of her brain. Studies confirmed that the blood clots formed on the two days she received her neck adjustments.

This is just as much anecdotal evidence as anything from people who have had good experiences with good chiropractors who aren't just out to make money but are actually attempting to help people deal with *back-related problems*.

Which begs the question - why was Kristi going to a chiropractor for something related to her sinuses? Seems like a bit of a stretch to me - and yes, it's ridiculous to see a chiropractor for something like that. That would be like me going to my gynecologist to get help with an upper respiratory problem.

[ghporter]

There are ethical, safe chiropractors out there. It's my opinion that in any market there may be as many as 5 or 6 of 'em. The ones you hear about through advertising, through enormous signs outside their "practices," and through news reports don't fall into the "ethical, safe" category in my opinion.

Now I know of one chiro that provides advice about nutrition as well as spinal manipulation. Not dietary advice as such, but "where you can get fresh, unprocessed foods" advice. Not the BS homeopathy/herbalist/snake oil stuff at all. But this guy, and others who get real results and limit what they'll address to something like appropriate applications of real, science backed knowledge, are not nearly as common as the guys who get those un-accredited degrees and wear their lab coats in their TV ads.

By the way, by law an occupational or physical therapist cannot refer to him- or herself in a clinical setting as "Doctor," despite entry level for PTs moving to entirely doctorate degrees. Why is it that the AMA (yes, it's their insistence) makes this happen for valid, state-licensed health care professions, but they don't pursue chiropractors the same way?

[Railroader]

Most people I know who ever went to chiropractors were the kinds of people who wore magnets, took herbal remedies, and bought into all kids of shams. They would go to the chiropractor weekly for "adjustments". These are chronic whiners who seemed to look for any excuse to get out of work.

I know of only one legitimate chiropractor experience out of the other hundreds of scam appearing observations, but it is remarkable.

When my niece was only 3-4 years old she had severe difficulties sleeping. She would have extreme night terrors and nightmares. She would only sleep for an hour or so a night and would wake up screaming and it would take major consoling to calm her down. She also had all of the usual problems at waking times that people would have from lack of sleep, easily annoyed, distracted, unfocused. My in-laws took her to a number of specialists in pediatric sleep disorders and even psychiatrists. Finally, out of desperation they tried a chiropractor that their family doctor had recommended. After one visit she started to sleep normally and her waking behavior changed completely. She only had a couple night terrors after that, and none in the last couple years. This story is most remarkable in that my brother-in-law is a Doctor of Clinical Psychology who served a fellowship at Dartmouth. He was the most skeptical of all. They still have not gone to a chiropractor for anything else other than this and I am not convinced that the treatment wasn't a placebo-affect situation.

Even with all of that, I would have to be pretty desperate to go to a chiropractor.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Which begs the question - why was Kristi going to a chiropractor for something related to her sinuses?

Because according to the Congress of Chiropractic State Associations, "Chiropractic adjustments to the neck and base of the skull help alleviate the signs and symptoms associated with sinus blockage."

Chiropractic is a cure-all, you can go there for absolutely anything if they can invent a reason to do it.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Which begs the question - why was...

No it doesn't. Sorry, misuse of that phrase bugs me more than chiropractors bug olePigeon.